Continued

The Jewish God decries violence:

PSALMS 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

The Jewish Bible advocates deep kissing.

SONG OF SOLOMON 7:9 And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, causing the lips of those that are asleep to speak.

The Jewish Bible advocates foreplay.

ISAIAH 5:1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

The Jewish Bible advocates foreplay with clitoral stimulation.

SONG OF SOLOMON 2:6 His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me.

SONG OF SOLOMON 5:4 My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him.

The Jewish Bible eulogises gay love:

SAMUEL 2 1:26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.

In the New Testament one finds a lean, mean Jesus. Four consecutive verses show a "Here comes trouble" attitude.

MATTHEW 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

MATTHEW 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Daughters in law need that?

MATTHEW 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Remember this when the Bible bashers talk about family values.

MATTHEW 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

This is a jealous, possessive love. A loving spouse would not demand making a choice between the children of your union and herself or himself, and a loving saviour would not demand that people make a choice between him and one's family.

Csteele,

You can't lay assailing your faith at my door. Your faith is your belief within... I am discussing the basis of your religion the Bible. The reason I comment on the Bible is that I studied it.

Did you not realise that the Bible contained these horrid passages? I have been very gentle in quoting them trust me... there are many!

If you didn't realise then why not? Did your preacher forget to tell you? Did you miss them in Bible study or weren't they mentioned? If people don't know about these verses is their religious education lacking?

I am not angry at anyone, or threatened, but it seems your faith is. When I was a child I asked questions about these passages and I was shunned. One of my lovely religious teachers even used emotional blackmail on me stating "I have failed you". She didn't fail me... her knowledge of the Bible and her religious education failed her!

I'm not against you sharing what you believe to be the good news but at least tell the whole truth. Is telling the truth a Christian quality?

If God through Jesus Christ is your faith then understand it fully. You admit you don't have the inclination to study these passages - so don't but don't be shocked when someone tells you what your Bible contains.

As I said earlier Jesus admonished the Pharisees and Sadducees as hypocrites.

Faith and spirituality are not limited to a book so why is the book so important? If people built their faith on the Bible without any knowledge of these passages then their faith might just may be built on sand as Jesus warned in Matthew 7:24-2

Hey davidf, can I leave my response until my 24 hours in the Ned Flanders cardigan are up?

Hey opinionated2,

You might well say you are commenting on the Bible but in reality you are using it to comment on my faith.

A different person may well see the same flaws you claim to see but have an entirely different perspective. They might look at the book in its entirety and see the life changing experience of grace that so many people have been blessed with over the ages and see it as something unique, magnificent and G-d derived.

Perhaps part of the problem is that you have only studied it not 'lived it'. Through your obvious cynicism you have placed a wall between the fruits of G-d’s love and your life. I am wondering why you think that I and so many like me should be denied as well? Or if we are allowed it then only on your terms, with your idea of G-d? Is this not an arrogance?

We are enjoined to go out and proselytise, you are not, however the degree with which I extol my faith is at least equal with the vehemence with which you try to tear it down. I don’t presume to have answers to all the questions you raise about the bible, only G-d does. Your attitude of rejecting him until they are all answered to your satisfaction is from my standpoint self defeating.

You said Jesus admonished the Pharisees and Sadducees as hypocrites. But why? Because they were so caught up in the minutia of the law and forgot to live the faith. Isn’t this exactly what you are doing?

What do you think might happen if you accepted Jesus Christ into your life? What burdens would be shed? What exuberance of life would you experience that up till now has been denied you? If you knew you may not be so quick to try and relieve me of these gifts.

c ‘born-again-for-3/4s-of-a-day’ steele

Well my day as a ‘born-again-Christian’ was pleasant enough but I’m handing back the cardigan. I think Billy Graham is probably pleased, although with a little more practice….

This gives me a chance to reply to davidf. I am more than happy to acknowledge the love proclaimed in the OT but you have got to be kidding when you say of Jesus “This is a jealous, possessive love. A loving spouse would not demand making a choice between the children of your union and herself or himself, and a loving saviour would not demand that people make a choice between him and one's family.” but then say the Jewish G-d was above all this. Could you please tell me what the hell Abraham was doing with his knife poised above Isaac’s throat?

The relationship between the Jews and G-d is only understandable for me when seen as that of two lovers.

You say you love me well prove it! - I would do anything for you. - I see the most precious thing is your firstborn of your union with Sarah. Sacrifice him to me then I will believe it. - Okay I will. - Wow you were actually prepared to do it, you must really love me. - I love you too.

"For the Lord, whose name is jealous, is a jealous God."—Exodus 34:14.

And what about Passover? Here was the poor Pharaoh, beaten into submission with plagues etc ready to let Moses and his people go when your Jewish G-d intervenes to ’harden his heart’ resulting in the sacrifice of the first born son of every Egyptian family. Why? Because G-d was showing off. “I need an excuse to give this bloke a real thumping so that my lover sees just how good I am”

Most Jewish holidays seem to be associated with slaughter. For the biggest lover’s hissy fit could you ever beat drowning the whole world?

Your Jewish G-d did, and was prepared to do, great evil in the name of love and jealousy. I think Jesus was a saint in comparison.

c “born-again-no-longer” steele

Dear Csteele,

You wrote: "you have got to be kidding when you say of Jesus “This is a jealous, possessive love. A loving spouse would not demand making a choice between the children of your union and herself or himself, and a loving saviour would not demand that people make a choice between him and one's family.” but then say the Jewish G-d was above all this. Could you please tell me what the hell Abraham was doing with his knife poised above Isaac’s throat?"

I am not kidding. Jesus was a bigot. When he said that one could only enter the Kingdom of heaven through him he was saying that it didn't matter how good a life you lived, how decent you were you could enter the Kingdom of heaven only if you accepted his mumbo jumbo.

I don't why you spell God G-d. The story of Abraham and Isaac is why I am now an atheist. I began to doubt the whole business. In both the Jewish Bible and the New Testament there is a mixture of love and hate. There are nuggets of decency and love in both. However, I think Abraham who was willing to commit an atrocity to show his faith and a God who would ask a man to commit such an atrocity or Jesus the bigot and his God who was a sadist committing his beloved son to a horrid death are all unworthy of worship.

However, I brought in the Jewish God because that is where Jesus got his sayings about love. What he said that was good was not new and what he said that was not new was not good. I got the impression from your post that you thought Jesus invented love.

It existed way before either part of the Bible.

Csteele,

How can you look at the Bible in it's entirety and ignore all the horrid bits? Amazing!

I think you have just remade my exact point!

The question is will Christians, and followers of the OT especially, still describe it as "God's Word" and "inerrant"? Is stating this a lie, or worse the betrayal of God by even thinking that God could make up such crazy rules. Surely it is an insult to God's intelligence and greatness?

If they do then either they believe your God is at times a ruthless God (eg, Exodus 31:12-15, Judges 21:10-24, Leviticus 20:9)who makes dangerous unintelligent laws (Deuteronomy 22:28-29) OR will Christians intentionally under inform those they proselytise too?

This is exactly the point I originally made when I asked "Is it Christian to mislead people on the Bible?" Is Christianity a religion of truth? Does God or G_d want the truth to be told?

You can't say the Bible is God's word and that you follow the Bible if you only follow the bits you choose... that would be an incorrect statement of facts ... thus an untruth ... thus a sin ... Aren't you now justifying not telling people the truth and encouraging sin?

Muslims are told to proselytise also... How do you feel about that?

And your point "We are enjoined to go out and proselytise, you are not" undermines free speech - I can do what I choose and telling the truth seems more important and Godly to me than being deceptive or untruthful.

Me becoming a Christian would only undermine what I know to be the truth... You have proved it above. I would gain nothing - I'm already the life of the party. empathetic, intelligent, helpful, kind generous but mostly I don't brainwash people - are you?

I don't want to take your faith from you - All I ask is that you tell the truth about the Bible. Then people can make up their own minds.

Is telling the truth what your God requires?