Hi Foxy...

well... I probably can't find time to visit a library to scrounge through a book.. (but I may well try) when it should be easy to just do a few clicks on the old Puter and zap....I'm there.

One thing very worrisome is this:

<<the book is on the required reading lists for
HSC students, and is found in all public libraries
throughout Victoria.>>

I sure hope that this 'required' reading (which seems like a synonym for 'brainwashing') is balanced by an alternative perspective of 'required' reading.

I'm wondering why you seem to have the view that "Hamas wants to obliterate Israel" is something that others invented... do you feel that? Do you recognize that it is from their own charter? (please give a yes/no answer here because it would be a sticking point in any discussion aiming for progress)

I have accessed numerous quotes of Khalid Mashaal.. .HAMAS leader.

They don't encourage me.

2006
Exiled Hamas political leader Khaled Mashaal said his group would not recognize Israel, but it wants to join a national unity government with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' rival Fatah faction.

2007 Hamas violently ousts Fatah! (simple historical fact)

Look for words in Mashaals statements like this
-"Long term truce"
-"Accept the reality of the Zionist entity, but not recognize it"
-Right of return for refugees.

If those types of phrases pepper Mashaals statements...you need to be wise as a fox to discern what he is really saying.

Mashaals selected quotes (Wiki)

* "Tomorrow, our nation will sit on the throne of the world. This is not a figment of the imagination, but a fact. Tomorrow we will lead the world, Allah willing. Apologize today, before remorse will do you no good. Our nation is moving forwards, and it is in your interest to respect a victorious nation."

* "Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die, they will experience humiliation and degradation every day."

Foxy, do you hear Israeli leaders speaking like this? I don't.

Long term....this is what we all should be cogniscent of:

http://www.imemc.org/article/58018

Dear Polycarp,

I've already answered your question on Hamas.
Go back and re-read my posts on this thread.

What I find distressing is that you don't
seem to make any distinction between an occupied
people and those who occupy them.
Israel talks about the right of self-defence.
How can an occupier claim self-defence but
deny the right to those who are occupied and have
the right of self-defence with whatever means
are available to them?

I don't know of a way to measure suffering,
or how to quantity pain, but I do know that
Palestinians are not children of a lesser God.

As for Loewenstein's book being classed as you
suggest, as 'brain-washing?'
No. it's a plea for mutual respect and understanding.
The author's main concern is for a sustainable
future for both Israel and Palestine.

If in Australia we were under foreign occupation and
denied the right to vote, denied the right to run
our affairs, denied the right to work for three
generations, I suspect that if it happened here, we
would react as well.

There seems to be a double standard:

If a young Jewish boy goes and joins the Israeli
army, and ends up killing many Palestinians in operations
and can come back, that is wholly legitimate. But
for a young Muslim boy, who might think: I want to
defend my Palestinian brothers and sisters and get
involved, he is branded a terrorist.

One eyed people have a skewed perspective
on the conflict.

I won't be responding on this topic any further.
Simply because I don't see us making any progress.
We'll simply have to agree to view things differently
on this, and many other subjects.

And, if that makes
me a 'bigot,' in your eyes? W
Well, I guess that's something
I will have to learn to live with.

All The Best,

Hmmm dear Foxy...I hope you can squeeze one more response out of your heart here.. because I went to the trouble of joining the Ringwood library and borrowing Loensteins book...which I've now already read some of.

I focused on the pages you mentioned 244-245 and the only reference to Hamas and 'settlement' was this: (bottom of 244- top of 245)

QUOTE: "Hamas has a history of launching terror attacks agains Israeli CIVILIANS and a charter that specifically seeks the destruction of Israel, .....
but....
numerous Hamas spokespeople have suggested that a neotiated settlement with Israel is a possibility, based on 67 borders."
UNQUOTE:

May I humbly ask... does it not seem a bit of a worry that he simply 'asserts' this.. without a single reference or footnote.. not a single actual quote from any Hamas person.

Now.. I would not consider the simple 'assertion' of something as important as that to be convincing argument.

I've provided a number of actual Hamas quotations myself in various threads, properly attributed and sourced. Loewenstein did not.

You saw the quotes from the Hamas leader.. Mashaal... in my last post. You did not dispute them.

What you seem to be disputing is Israel's right to exist.

Mashaal says "We do not fight the Jews because of their culture or faith, but because of what they imposed on us by force"

He also says:(In the same article)

<<We shall never recognise the right of any power to rob us of our land and deny us our national rights. We shall never recognise the legitimacy of a Zionist state created on our soil in order to atone for somebody else's sins or solve somebody else's problem. But if you are willing to accept the principle of a long-term truce, we are prepared to negotiate the terms.>>

"Long Term Truce"....there it is. Notice "We shall NEVER recognize.."

Foxy... do you accept Israels right to exist in that region?
Does Mashaal/(Hamas) ?

Dear Polycarp,

If you're going to quote something, why don't
you give the complete quote, instead of
selecting an emphasis?

What Khalid Mish'al actually said was:

"We shall never recognise the right of any power
to rob us of our land and deny us our national
rights. We shall never recognise the legitimacy
of a Zionist state created on our soil in order
to atone for somebody else's sins or solve
somebody else's problem. But if you are willing
to accept the principle of a long-term truce,
we are prepared to negotiate the terms.
Hamas is extending a hand of peace to those who
are truly interested in a peace based on justice."

Now you can say "AHA!" Polycarp!

Do you still not get it?

As for deriding Antony Loewenstein for not giving
references, footnotes, et cetera. He actually has.
On page 245 of his book reference 62 is cited.
And, if you look up Reference 62 which is listed
in Loewenstein's comprehensive notes on page 314,
there's the reference to the article by Khalid
Mish'al in, The Guardian, Tuesday 31 January 2006.

If you look up that article on the web - you can read it
in its entirety of what Khalid Mish'al actually
has to say:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/31/comment.israelandthepalestinians

Loewenstein also supplies you with complete
references chapter by chapter, plus a
Bibliography and a list of websites.

As for your question, "Do I believe in the
right of Israel to exist in that area?"

You obviously don't read any of my posts
in full, or you don't understand what
I've been trying to say because just like
Loewenstein, I've said it many times,
I support the state of
Israel and believe in its existence
but there must be a way for Israel
to exist securely while allowing justice
for the Palestinian people.

I trust that you'll finally get it!

cont'd

Polycarp you ask if Khalid Mish'al
accepts the right of Israel to exist
in the region, look up the website
I gave you.

In it Khalid Mish'al clearly states:

"Our message to the Israelis is this:
we do not fight you because you belong to
a certain faith or culture. Jews have
lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries
in peace and harmony; they are in our
religion "the people of the book" who have a
covenant from God and His messenger Myhammad
(peace be upon him) to be respected and protected.
Our conflict with you is not religious but
political. We have no problem with Jews who have
not attacked us - our problem is with those who
came to our land, imposed themselves on us by
force, destroyed our society and banished our people..."

"Palestinians voted for Hamas
because of our refusal to give up their rights.
But we are ready to make a just peace."

Hi Foxy :)

ok... I read those posts.. and now I understand that 'you' accept some kind of Israel can exist.

You believe it is possible for Israel to exist (somehow) and for their to be a 'just' solution for the Palestinians.

Now.. I don't argue with that.... unfortunately.. HAMAS and Mishaal do.

Their idea of 'just' is somewhat different from yours I suggest.

If 'their' idea is...

"Right of return for all displaced Palestinians AND their offspring to places they formerly lived in"

Does that concur with your idea? If not...can you describe your meaning of 'just' for them?

But remember..there were many Jewish purchases of land... the events which brought about the 'State' were Arab Attacks and the Jewish response+plus a zionist element.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War#UN_Partition_Plan

The partition plan seemed very fair to me.. Arabs rejected it, and began fighting the Jews.. Given the large numbers of Arabs within the Jewish section (438,000 Arabs 499,000 Jews) I can see why the Jews might have wanted improve the odds a bit.

Jerusalem... UN control. (good idea)

What I find hard to grasp is why there were so many Arabs happy to sell their land to the Jews.. and did so... why the land of the Arabs in the Jewish area could not have been bought by the UN/Jews/Whoever for Jewish use,.. to facilitate a less frictional demographic.

I think the sticking point of controversy between us.. is that:

I don't believe Mashaal/Hamas have any room for Jews in Israel (ultimately) and any mention of 'just/fair' by them... means "
a) All Palestinians return to former land.
b) bide out time and opportunity to rid Palestine of all Jews"

But you... aah.. u feel that Mr Mashaal shares your (Western) compassion :)

I don't see that the Jews came to the land by force except in the final stages after they were attacked by Arabs after they bought land.

Well.. we can only let history decide it.