some little known fact

http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-using-depleted-uranium-against-gaza-victims.html

Medics have found traces of depleted uranium in victims of Israel’s brutal attack on Gaza, according to a Press TV report, meaning the ultimate death toll could be far higher as future generations are plagued by cancers and birth defects.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-rains-fire-on-gaza-with-phosphorus-shells.html

Israel is believed to be using controversial white phosphorus shells to screen its assault on the heavily populated Gaza Strip yesterday.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-5-lies-about-israel%e2%80%99s-assault-on-gaza.html

The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated pieces of property in the world. The presence of militants within a civilian population does not, under international law, deprive that population of their protected status, and hence any assault upon that population under the guise of targeting militants is, in fact, a war crime.



Thttp://www.prisonplanet.com/the-invasion-of-gaza-operation-cast-lead-part-of-a-broader-israeli-military-intelligence-agenda.html

he aerial bombings and the ongoing ground invasion of Gaza by Israeli ground forces must be analysed in a historical context. Operation “Cast Lead” is a carefully planned undertaking, which is part of a broader military-intelligence agenda first formulated by the government of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2001.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/israels-fait-accompli-in-gaza.html

There are two completely different versions of what is currently happening in Gaza.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/gaza-in-perspective.html

The bombing of the Gaza Strip has predictably been justified by Israel and the United States as self-defense by a country under attack from a ‘terrorist’ organization.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/an-experiment-in-provocation-stealing-gaza.html

It’s a tragedy that the Israelis - a people who must understand better than almost anybody the horrors of oppression - are now acting as oppressors.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/kristol-says-gaza-invasion-a-favor-for-obama.html

Bill Kristol thinks that President-elect Barack Obama should be thankful for Israel’s attack on Gaza.

OBAMA-NATION

• This Is Change? 20 Hawks, Clintonites and Neocons to Watch for in Obama’s White House

http://www.prisonplanet.com/this-is-change-20-hawks-clintonites-and-neocons-to-watch-for-in-obamas-white-house.html

• The Third Clinton Administration

http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-third-clinton-administration.html

• The Imperialism You Can Believe In

http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-imperialism-you-can-believe-in.html

• No “Change” In Israeli Manipulation Of U.S. Foreign Policy Under Obama

http://www.prisonplanet.com/no-change-in-israeli-manipulation-of-us-foreign-policy-under-obama.html

http://www.civilrights.org.nz/forum/index.php?topic=364.msg1062;topicseen#msg1062

Dear Polycarp,

I don't think that anything will be
achieved by my continuing to have this
discussion with you. There is no
point to discussing who did what to whom,
and why.
And who will continue to do what to whom,
and why.

Obviously nothing is going to change with
either Israel or Palestine, until
both sides are willing to listen to each
other's grievances, and negotiate with
honesty.

If you're really interested in getting a
different perspective to the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict I suggest you read the book,
"My Israel Question," by Antony Loewenstein.

Have a nice day.

Dear Foxy (or anyone) :) yes..I'm a stubborn one.

Let me reduce it all to one simple point.

HAMAS CHARTER.. do you know it? have you read it? do you understand it?

"obliterate"...does that mean anything to you?

Can you please explain to me how Israel can 'negotiate' and discuss that?

I'd really like to know... honestly.. because it seems to me you and others are missing the most important aspect of this whole issue.

Simply closing down the discussion is.. well.. not good form.

Please comment on these words and I'll then know your position:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

So... comment?

If you cannot comment...then it will look like 'bigotry'.... where the facts stare you in the face but you simply deny them.

Dear Polycarp,

Ok. I'll keep it simple for you as well.
Because you did ask...

Since 1948 in its attempt to establish an
Israeli state the Government of Israel
has obliterated the properties, and lives
of thousands upon thousands of Palestinians
to the point that today there are about 2
million Palestinians in refugee camps in
Lebanon, Gaza, and scattered throughout the
world.

A Jewish state would not have come
into being without the uprooting of 700,000
Palestinians. The need to establish the state
of Israel overcame the injustice that was done
to the Palestinians by uprooting them.

These people did not ask to have their lives
destroyed so Israel could flourish.

Today more than 400 000 Jews live on occupied
territories. The growth has been massive,
despite successive US administrations appealing,
tentatively at best, for cessation.

In 2003 Labor MP and former speaker of the
Israeli parliament Avraham Burg launched
one of the most pointed attacks on the Zionist
project by a mainstream politician:

"It turns out that the 2000-year struggle for
Jewish survival comes down to a state of
settlements, run by an amoral clique of corrupt
lawbreakers who are deaf both to their citizens
and to their enemeies...Israel, having ceased to
care about the children of the Palestinians, should
not be surprised when they come washed in hatred
and blow themselves up in the centres of Israeli
escapism..."

Of course Hamas has a
history of launching terror attacks against Israeli
civilians and a charter that specifically seeks the
destruction of Israel. After over 40 years
of brutal Israeli occupation, it would be
miraculous not to have a reaction.

But as numerous Hamas
spokespeople have affirmed both to Israeli politicians,
and to Israeli newspapers, (read Loewenstein's book),
a negotiated settlement
with Israel is a possibility, based on 1967 borders.

Israel has rejected this, preferring to act unilaterally.

Even as the head of its political bureau, has said that his party
does not fight Jews, "because they belong to a certain
faith or culture... our problem is with those who imposed
themselves on us by force."

oOOOK...thanx foxy... we are getting somewhere now.

If I understand you correctly.. this is your position?

1/ While you don't like the situation created by settlements in the West bank...or by the establishment of Israel as a state...you are realistic enough to concede they have a right to exist...albeit at the same time providing for addressing the grievances of the displaced palestinians?

2/ You believe that Hamas is willing to negotiate a settlement based on 67 borders in spite of it's charter. (do you have a link to a statement to that effect?).

I won't harp :) but I'd recommend testing the 2nd point in the light of a larger body of statements and actions of Hamas.

I also think we would see a 'creeping' territorial zionism in Israel's actions.. because of the politics of settlers/orthodox. I don't have a strong position on the rightness or wrongness of that..I just see it as history unfolding b4 our eyes.

One very simple test of their (hamas) willingness to truly negotiate a settlement would be this:

Renounce violence.. and renounce the 'Islam will obliterate' from their charter...replacing it with.....

"Hamas believes in the peaceful achievement of it's goals, and commits to work with Israel for a mutually satisfying peace"....

If they did that....I for one would be most relieved.

Khalid Mashal Hamas leader said this:

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gdtRDtnHXowtCzCgJF-5zQE_CMRA

"We accept a Palestinian state within the June 4 1967 borders with Jerusalem as its capital -- a sovereign state without settlements -- as well as the right of Palestinian refugees to return, but without recognition of Israel,"

If you have a more recent link to a better statement... please provide it.

If you couple the 2 elements of Mashal's statement.

1/ 4.5million Palestinians return (to what is now Israel)
2/ We don't recognize Israel

hmmm I think we have a formula for big/huge problems.

Do you not agree?

Dear Polycarp,

You asked for links. Well, there are many
the one I mostly use is, as I told you earlier,
Antony Loewenstein's book, "My Israel Question."
The Hamas reference that I mentioned,
is listed in full on pages
244 - 245.

Loewenstein also gives a complete bibliography
as well as websites at the end of his book.
I would strongly recommend you get hold of a
copy from your local library. As I said earlier,
the book is on the required reading lists for
HSC students, and is found in all public libraries
throughout Victoria.

We need to be careful, when discussing this
emotive issue that we try and discuss a fair
and just solution for both sides, without
appearing only one-sided by
using words like "Hamas wants to obliterate Israel..."
or infer that Hamas should do the backing down,
in what is a complex situation.

Comments such as those infer that Israel is the
victim, and the Palestinians the villains.

That sort of attitude won't wash. The point is
that the Palestinians have been brutally
occupied for over 40 years. They've been treated
shamefully, and they have reached the point now
where they've got little to lose. That is a
dangerous situation to be in.

If the US continues to support Israel, this
could eventuate into a major war, drawing in
other Muslim nations into this conflict.

Israel is totally surrounded by Muslim nations
that only need a trigger to set them off.
Egypt, Libya, Sudan, Jordan, Afghanistan,
Pakistan, Southern Muslim regions of the former
Soviet Union, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Syria, Iran,
Iraq...

At present the Palestinians are using rather
primitive weapons in comparison to the weaponry
that Israel possesses. However, if some major world
powers (like Russia) should decide to supply
the Palestinians with more modern weaponry,
a major disaster would result. (As predicted
in the writings of Nostradamus).

We can only pray, this does not occur.
The sooner a resoltion is found to end this
conflict, with both sides willing to make
concessions, the better.

The time for finger-pointing is well and truly
over.