I offer no real opinion on the topic itself, other than I'm Christian. Take what you will from that. But Al Jazeera have film crews in the Gaza Strip. This is one of the most significant issues right now for Christians and Jews. It's not the watered down footage we're getting here. In a way, that's a warning on some of the content.

Go here: http://au.youtube.com/user/AlJazeeraEnglish

Especially with the ground offensive beginning.

The middle east is a dreadful place, driven by hate and education that is blind to truth and honesty.
I long ago became aware of the miss use of the Medea, manufactured news, slanted items.
For me it is hopeless, my views are biased, without shame I give more value to facts.
Some, too many live to hate Israel, pledge to wipe the country out.
Those rockets are real, targets innocents, cry wolf if it is the way you want it but I take my position hate is always wrong.

The hate from Hamas and the lack of action from the 'moderate muslims' have led to this tragic situation where Israel is forced into defending itself. No decent person likes to see innocent people killed or injured. Hamas and those of the same ideology are responsible for these deaths and not Israel.

those who kill ANYONE ,regardless of belief are murderors

anyone can find a reason to hate
hate breeds hate

there is no moral high ground with murder
read the holy books
thou shalt not murder

it has less written about it than anyother command meant
because it is so clear

killing is murder
all who murder love the murder
[looking for excuses to kill]

call a spade a spade

murderors love killing others
they are all cowards when they die

the only 'war heroes' are those mudered
killers do not honour their own gift of life

by their deeds will we know
if they are serving god
[the life giver of all life]

or satan the life taker

by their deeds will you know them
who is not a child of god?

@underonegod

You're an illiterate nonsensical twat with a self proclaimed sense of self righteousness spruiking from a moral high ground you built on some fantasy reality. Shut up.

MY_HOPE.... is that in all this 'fog_of_war'...it is realized that IF... the Israelis wished to wipe out the Palestinians...they could do so in a couple of days.

PALESTINIAN VIEWPOINT. As expressed by one of their senior diplomats this morning on CNN when asked "If Hamas is serious about wanting peace, why do they continue to launch rockets at Israeli towns?"

Replied: "Why does Israel continue building settlements (West Bank)?"

CONCLUSION. For some strange reason, HAMAS appears to believe that poking a hungry tiger with a stick, will cause it to stop eating the nearest deer! What in the WORLD has launching rockets against a vastly militarily superior foe got to do with 'stopping settlements'?

Some important facts must be remembered always.

1/ Rocket range is continually increasing. (now able to reach major population centres including Beer Sheba.. exposing 300,000 Israeli men, women and children to possible sudden death or dismemberment.

2/ Israel actually has a brain. They know the end game.. Gaza will become a small Islamist enclave dedicated to the ideas which fuel it, and fed with a strict diet of Mohammad's victories against incredible odds...and will simply continue to attack Israel, always finding some excuse to do so.
a) Settlements!
b) Broken ceasefire!
c) When the above 2 are removed it will be "Israel exists"

It seems to be a circular argument that never ends.

The sooner those who wish to condemn Israel for specific actions realize this the easier it will be for all of us to discuss the matters intelligently.

HAMAS CHARTER

Article Five: Dimensions of Time and Space of the Hamas. As the Movement adopts Islam as its way of life, its time dimension extends back as far as the birth of the Islamic Message and of the Righteous Ancestor. Its ultimate goal is Islam, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution.

A-gain....this excerpt is indicative of the mental state of Hamas.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"
Source: http://www.standwithus.com/pdfs/flyers/Hamas_covenant.pdf

Could the parameters of the predicament be more clear?

dear stg quote>>@underonegod>>
saintG clearly is dislectic..[lol],too

but we have the'pot'calling the kettle blacker

>>You're an illiterate nonsensical twat with a self proclaimed sense of self righteousness spruiking from a moral high ground you built on some fantasy reality...Shut up.<<

interesting saint g [you have noticed the topic?
could you reply to it?

i notice your brothers are posting re todays attacking point [excusing the collective mass murder of palisteins[presumably][based on the three respondants posting the hamas constitution,this being deemed by their masters todays talking point

i regard the hamas con..[at about the same level of believability as the proticols of zion]most likely wrote[rote]by the same hand

##it is funny to hear your high ground seems to be by in-validating me for daring to call murder what it is

its time you know the settlement/settlers are ruled by the talmud, which clearly you have not read[or you would not be defending those who murder others for peace?..for land?..for private settlements to practice on'children'abducted from war-zones

talmud deem's raping children under three as non-criminal][and those of concent[over seven? as being criminal for pasivity]have you read it?

you claim to be a xtian,thus have no clear concept of that your defending..[yet you cant post to condem or defend only to place a rather dull insult[if indeed a xtian you be,you must be one of those whose faith is weak..[but i doudt you ever read the bible]

for one of so few words[and indeed less opinion the question comes to mind about why post response to this topic[by comming here[a topic] on gaza,..yet failing to mention it at all in your response

one can only summise you came to offer support for murder of children[but because of my post about vile murder;couldnt post the response you were ordered to post]

lets see you come back and post to topic

as a xtian you cant condone murder[but your not xtian; are you] i lived in lota..[i think we well know each other]..its time to face what you are..[you cant do that to children]and neither can the settlers.

The message that I'm getting from the media
and the posters on this Forum is that neither
Israel nor Palestine feels that the other
side cares about its stories or suffering.

This makes reconciliation next to impossible.

They must move past using dehumanisation and
deligitimisation as weapons.

There must be a way for Israel to exist
securely while allowing justice for the
Palestinian people. There must be a
sustainable future for them both.

I support the rights of both Israelis and
Palestinians to live in peace and security,
but not at the expense of each other.

We need a radical rethinking of the conflict.

Preaching hatred, pointing fingers, trying to
justify one or the other side's actions with
accusations is not going to solve anything.

It's time that both Israel and the Palestinians
met face to face, listened to each other's
grievances, didn't play politics, and
negotiated with honesty. Only then, and on the
condition that both Israel and the Palestinian
state achieve safety and security will this
conflict be resolved.

When will everyone realise that there is no solution to the Israel
Palestinian dispute.

The Romans threw the Jews out around 63 AD and the Arabs moved in
some few hundreds of years later.

The Jews came back after almost 1900 years and said "We're back !"
The Arabs said hey, we have been here for more than a thousand years,
go away !

So you can see that a solution will satisfy no one and to top it off
they both want Jerusalem and both say you can't have it.

They are both driven by religion which gives them the right to their
demands.

So why don't the rest of us just shut up and let them get on with it.

It's ironic to see the Jews are fed up with Hamas and are now embarking of their own "Final Solution".

I bet they wish they hadn't help get rid of the more accommodating Fatah group that led to Hamas coming to power in the first place.

I gave up reading your dribble under one god, you make ZERO sense.

I'm not anything debating with an idiot that types xtian. What, is that a friggen martian or something?.

Dear foxy....

only a kind hearted Westerner with all the best intent in the world could say what you did:

"It's time that both Israel and the Palestinians
met face to face, listened to each other's
grievances, didn't play politics, and
negotiated with honesty."

Oh..I'm getting the very same message that you mentioned from the media also.

PALESTINIAN UN AMABASSADOR speaking "We must bring a halt to the cruel Israeli aggression" (add to this the obligatory mention of "women and children")

CNN INTERVIEWER "But Mr Ambassador, Hamas has launched many 1000s of rockets against Israel and the Israelis claim they have been living in terror for 8 yrs"

PALESTINIAN UN AMABASSADOR "If you want to talk about living in terror.. imagine the whole Gaza community being subjected to this inhuman aggression from terrorist Israel"

(that was a paraphrase)... bottom line..he just did NOT hear anything about rockets.. like 8000 of them.... 30 to 80 PER DAY launched at Israel.

For your comfort and encouragement.. when I attended the 'Free Palestine Rally' I made sure I asked them this 'WHYYYYY were you not on the streets protesting about the 80 rockets a day from Hamas into Israel"?

Needless to say, the response was pretty much "Ohhhh that's all BS.. blah blah..party line.. blah blah..Israel...terrorist state..blah blah...don't talk about history..blah blah.. women and children... blah blah"

Your impression from the media is quite accurate. Mine from the STREET is this:

All the protests and public demonstrations are driven by one thing..EMOTION'....but little fact.

Let's not forget, that the world wide network of socialists and Islamists always seek to put on a big show at moments like this.

I stood as a lone voice of balance at this rally "Condemn EQUALLY the rockets AND the Bombs"...but was met with "It's allll bs/Hezbollah will finish/fix u u scum" (from a 'lady':)

I heard an analogy yesterday about the psyche of many in long term conflicts. You ask any of them whether they want peace. They'll all say of course. Ask any of them if they'll meet in the middle and share power. They'll all say never with that criminal murdering scum.

The history and blood loss is TOO ingrained into their way of being for them EVER to trust eachother.

Polycarp,

Where did you get your 30-80 rockets per day stats from?

Are you suggesting that this has been the daily average over the last 8 years?

The Israel Defence Forces site says -

http://idfspokesperson.com/2009/01/03/rocket-statistics-3-jan-2009/

Dear Polycarp,

My views actually come from Antony Loewenstein,
who is a board member of Macquarie University's
Centre for Middle East and North African Studies.
He's the expert on the subject, I'm not.

In his book,"My Israel Question," he spoke to
Arabs, Palestinians, Jews, Christians, Muslims
and atheists in Israel, Lebanon, Palestine, France,
the UK, Switzerland, Australia, and the United
States, to hear all sides, possible solutions, and
legitimate grievances.

Loewenstein confirms that the current Israeli path
is unsustainable.

He examines the way in which the Palestinians have
become 'unpeople,' seemingly unworthy of sympathy
or understanding. This has resulted in a skewed
perspective on the conflict.

How could a democratic state maintain a brutal
occupation over another people for over 40 years,
and continue to claim it's for 'security?'

Why is the world told to believe that the
Palestinians should only accept peace on
Israel's terms?

I've come to the sad realisation after reading
your posts, and many others, that as Loewenstein
points out, many in the West simply don't like
Arabs or Palestinians very much and therefore
believe that we have the right to treat them as
we wish.

Don't get me wrong, I support the rights of
Israelis to live in peace and security, but not
at the expense of the Palestinians.

As I stated earlier, neither side has a monopoly on
suffering, but only one side has the power to end
the occupation and to recognise that Israel and
Palestine are historically destined to share the
same homeland.

saint G wrote>> gave up reading your dribble under one god, you make ZERO sense.

I'm not anything debating with an idiot that types xtian. What, is that a friggen martian or something?.>>

mate you might take jesus name/title in vain i cant
the body of christ is divided

we are supposed to be a body united in christ spirit
i cant see it

we have many claiming divergent things about jesus[besides 'x' is a valid replacement]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28891

The Spirit Of X or 'Chi'

'Chi' or 'X' were the origins of the Chinese word 'Qi' meaning 'life force' or 'energy flow'...'Chi' was also the origins of the Japanese word'Ki',as in 'Reiki'...'Chi'also features in 'Tai Chi'.

As you can see,the letter X or 'Chi'is very much about'spirit'.

X..The Mother Goddess,Isis

"In Plato's Timaeus,it is explained that the two bands which form the soul of the world cross each other like the letter X."

Plato,an ancient Greek esoteric philosopher(important to remember, considering who we're dealing with)associates the letter X with the'soul of the world'...'Soul of the world'in Latin becomes'Anima mundi'.Both of these terms are identified with'Gaia'.

Gaia can be defined as:

"A complex entity involving the Earth's biosphere, atmosphere, oceans, and soil; the totality constituting a feedback or cybernetic system which seeks an optimal physical and chemical environment for life on this planet."

Gaia is the 'Mother Goddess',who can be identified as Isis..the mother figure of the Egyptian trinity.

X..The 'Son Of God',Horus

"Chi or X is often used to abbreviate the name Christ,as in the holiday Christmas (Xmas)."

Jesus Christ,the'Son Of God'can be attributed to the sun,much like Horus..the son figure of the Egyptian trinity.>>

till see the'body of christ'acting of love of neighbour it shall be X

im not seeing it
[xtians have divided the 'one' body of christ as effectivly as was the fathers judeans house divided,in the days of the christ]

hopping on your high horse to support muder
[how dare you blaspheme jesus name]

were our christ here today would he glory in murder?

jesus weeps at that some 'xtians' do in his name

But you like any other with a mouth too big, judge.

Hi Foxy.

you said:

"Don't get me wrong, I support the rights of
Israelis to live in peace and security, but not
at the expense of the Palestinians."

One might ask "which" Palestinians?

You see.. the problem for Israel is this:

West Bank.... reasonably managable. (Fatah)

Gaza.... basket case. (Hamas)

Then...there is the other question.. when you use the term "at the expense of" and connect it to Palestinians.. I'm not clear on what you mean. Can you flesh this out a bit please?

1/ Israel consists of

a)Secularists.
b)Orthodox
c)Settlers.(who live in the Genesis/Exodus/Joshua/Judges era in their minds..and accept the promises made to Abraham Isaac and Jacob as being valid now.)

2/ Palestinians consist (politically) of:

a) Fatah
b) Hamas

Fatah includes radicals who want to obliterate Israel (Islamic Jihad)
Hamas does not 'include' but IS 100% dedicated to the obliteration of Israel.

My "Peace Plan" would be as follows:

1/ GAZA
a) No rockets from Gaza into Israel.
b) No Tunnels from Egypt.
c) No attacks by Israel
d) Crossings open (unless they are used to facilitate homicide bombers)
e) International monitors to verify the above.

2/ WEST BANK.
Most difficult. Expansion of settlements can be regarded as 'historic inevitability' as the ideology of the Settlers does not see it any other way. The only way to stop them would be war (Israeli on Israeli)
2 States? The best the Palestinians can hope for, given the realities on the ground, is a fragmented and weak state, but at least a free one. Israel will never never allow a hostile state to emerge along side it.

If this means displacement of people.... well..we Australians know a bit about that.. our Indigenous brethren do also. "it happens".
For us to reject displacement for Palestinians means we must also vacate our own land.

I think other than this we engage in wishful sentimental thinking.
Even if the Palestinians have a weak and fragmented state... it does not mean they cannot enjoy a good quality of life.. it does however mean though, that they cannot consitute a military threat to Israel.

some little known fact

http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-using-depleted-uranium-against-gaza-victims.html

Medics have found traces of depleted uranium in victims of Israel’s brutal attack on Gaza, according to a Press TV report, meaning the ultimate death toll could be far higher as future generations are plagued by cancers and birth defects.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-rains-fire-on-gaza-with-phosphorus-shells.html

Israel is believed to be using controversial white phosphorus shells to screen its assault on the heavily populated Gaza Strip yesterday.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-5-lies-about-israel%e2%80%99s-assault-on-gaza.html

The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated pieces of property in the world. The presence of militants within a civilian population does not, under international law, deprive that population of their protected status, and hence any assault upon that population under the guise of targeting militants is, in fact, a war crime.



Thttp://www.prisonplanet.com/the-invasion-of-gaza-operation-cast-lead-part-of-a-broader-israeli-military-intelligence-agenda.html

he aerial bombings and the ongoing ground invasion of Gaza by Israeli ground forces must be analysed in a historical context. Operation “Cast Lead” is a carefully planned undertaking, which is part of a broader military-intelligence agenda first formulated by the government of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2001.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/israels-fait-accompli-in-gaza.html

There are two completely different versions of what is currently happening in Gaza.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/gaza-in-perspective.html

The bombing of the Gaza Strip has predictably been justified by Israel and the United States as self-defense by a country under attack from a ‘terrorist’ organization.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/an-experiment-in-provocation-stealing-gaza.html

It’s a tragedy that the Israelis - a people who must understand better than almost anybody the horrors of oppression - are now acting as oppressors.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/kristol-says-gaza-invasion-a-favor-for-obama.html

Bill Kristol thinks that President-elect Barack Obama should be thankful for Israel’s attack on Gaza.

OBAMA-NATION

• This Is Change? 20 Hawks, Clintonites and Neocons to Watch for in Obama’s White House

http://www.prisonplanet.com/this-is-change-20-hawks-clintonites-and-neocons-to-watch-for-in-obamas-white-house.html

• The Third Clinton Administration

http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-third-clinton-administration.html

• The Imperialism You Can Believe In

http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-imperialism-you-can-believe-in.html

• No “Change” In Israeli Manipulation Of U.S. Foreign Policy Under Obama

http://www.prisonplanet.com/no-change-in-israeli-manipulation-of-us-foreign-policy-under-obama.html

http://www.civilrights.org.nz/forum/index.php?topic=364.msg1062;topicseen#msg1062

Dear Polycarp,

I don't think that anything will be
achieved by my continuing to have this
discussion with you. There is no
point to discussing who did what to whom,
and why.
And who will continue to do what to whom,
and why.

Obviously nothing is going to change with
either Israel or Palestine, until
both sides are willing to listen to each
other's grievances, and negotiate with
honesty.

If you're really interested in getting a
different perspective to the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict I suggest you read the book,
"My Israel Question," by Antony Loewenstein.

Have a nice day.

Dear Foxy (or anyone) :) yes..I'm a stubborn one.

Let me reduce it all to one simple point.

HAMAS CHARTER.. do you know it? have you read it? do you understand it?

"obliterate"...does that mean anything to you?

Can you please explain to me how Israel can 'negotiate' and discuss that?

I'd really like to know... honestly.. because it seems to me you and others are missing the most important aspect of this whole issue.

Simply closing down the discussion is.. well.. not good form.

Please comment on these words and I'll then know your position:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

So... comment?

If you cannot comment...then it will look like 'bigotry'.... where the facts stare you in the face but you simply deny them.

Dear Polycarp,

Ok. I'll keep it simple for you as well.
Because you did ask...

Since 1948 in its attempt to establish an
Israeli state the Government of Israel
has obliterated the properties, and lives
of thousands upon thousands of Palestinians
to the point that today there are about 2
million Palestinians in refugee camps in
Lebanon, Gaza, and scattered throughout the
world.

A Jewish state would not have come
into being without the uprooting of 700,000
Palestinians. The need to establish the state
of Israel overcame the injustice that was done
to the Palestinians by uprooting them.

These people did not ask to have their lives
destroyed so Israel could flourish.

Today more than 400 000 Jews live on occupied
territories. The growth has been massive,
despite successive US administrations appealing,
tentatively at best, for cessation.

In 2003 Labor MP and former speaker of the
Israeli parliament Avraham Burg launched
one of the most pointed attacks on the Zionist
project by a mainstream politician:

"It turns out that the 2000-year struggle for
Jewish survival comes down to a state of
settlements, run by an amoral clique of corrupt
lawbreakers who are deaf both to their citizens
and to their enemeies...Israel, having ceased to
care about the children of the Palestinians, should
not be surprised when they come washed in hatred
and blow themselves up in the centres of Israeli
escapism..."

Of course Hamas has a
history of launching terror attacks against Israeli
civilians and a charter that specifically seeks the
destruction of Israel. After over 40 years
of brutal Israeli occupation, it would be
miraculous not to have a reaction.

But as numerous Hamas
spokespeople have affirmed both to Israeli politicians,
and to Israeli newspapers, (read Loewenstein's book),
a negotiated settlement
with Israel is a possibility, based on 1967 borders.

Israel has rejected this, preferring to act unilaterally.

Even as the head of its political bureau, has said that his party
does not fight Jews, "because they belong to a certain
faith or culture... our problem is with those who imposed
themselves on us by force."

oOOOK...thanx foxy... we are getting somewhere now.

If I understand you correctly.. this is your position?

1/ While you don't like the situation created by settlements in the West bank...or by the establishment of Israel as a state...you are realistic enough to concede they have a right to exist...albeit at the same time providing for addressing the grievances of the displaced palestinians?

2/ You believe that Hamas is willing to negotiate a settlement based on 67 borders in spite of it's charter. (do you have a link to a statement to that effect?).

I won't harp :) but I'd recommend testing the 2nd point in the light of a larger body of statements and actions of Hamas.

I also think we would see a 'creeping' territorial zionism in Israel's actions.. because of the politics of settlers/orthodox. I don't have a strong position on the rightness or wrongness of that..I just see it as history unfolding b4 our eyes.

One very simple test of their (hamas) willingness to truly negotiate a settlement would be this:

Renounce violence.. and renounce the 'Islam will obliterate' from their charter...replacing it with.....

"Hamas believes in the peaceful achievement of it's goals, and commits to work with Israel for a mutually satisfying peace"....

If they did that....I for one would be most relieved.

Khalid Mashal Hamas leader said this:

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gdtRDtnHXowtCzCgJF-5zQE_CMRA

"We accept a Palestinian state within the June 4 1967 borders with Jerusalem as its capital -- a sovereign state without settlements -- as well as the right of Palestinian refugees to return, but without recognition of Israel,"

If you have a more recent link to a better statement... please provide it.

If you couple the 2 elements of Mashal's statement.

1/ 4.5million Palestinians return (to what is now Israel)
2/ We don't recognize Israel

hmmm I think we have a formula for big/huge problems.

Do you not agree?

Dear Polycarp,

You asked for links. Well, there are many
the one I mostly use is, as I told you earlier,
Antony Loewenstein's book, "My Israel Question."
The Hamas reference that I mentioned,
is listed in full on pages
244 - 245.

Loewenstein also gives a complete bibliography
as well as websites at the end of his book.
I would strongly recommend you get hold of a
copy from your local library. As I said earlier,
the book is on the required reading lists for
HSC students, and is found in all public libraries
throughout Victoria.

We need to be careful, when discussing this
emotive issue that we try and discuss a fair
and just solution for both sides, without
appearing only one-sided by
using words like "Hamas wants to obliterate Israel..."
or infer that Hamas should do the backing down,
in what is a complex situation.

Comments such as those infer that Israel is the
victim, and the Palestinians the villains.

That sort of attitude won't wash. The point is
that the Palestinians have been brutally
occupied for over 40 years. They've been treated
shamefully, and they have reached the point now
where they've got little to lose. That is a
dangerous situation to be in.

If the US continues to support Israel, this
could eventuate into a major war, drawing in
other Muslim nations into this conflict.

Israel is totally surrounded by Muslim nations
that only need a trigger to set them off.
Egypt, Libya, Sudan, Jordan, Afghanistan,
Pakistan, Southern Muslim regions of the former
Soviet Union, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Syria, Iran,
Iraq...

At present the Palestinians are using rather
primitive weapons in comparison to the weaponry
that Israel possesses. However, if some major world
powers (like Russia) should decide to supply
the Palestinians with more modern weaponry,
a major disaster would result. (As predicted
in the writings of Nostradamus).

We can only pray, this does not occur.
The sooner a resoltion is found to end this
conflict, with both sides willing to make
concessions, the better.

The time for finger-pointing is well and truly
over.

Hi Foxy...

well... I probably can't find time to visit a library to scrounge through a book.. (but I may well try) when it should be easy to just do a few clicks on the old Puter and zap....I'm there.

One thing very worrisome is this:

<<the book is on the required reading lists for
HSC students, and is found in all public libraries
throughout Victoria.>>

I sure hope that this 'required' reading (which seems like a synonym for 'brainwashing') is balanced by an alternative perspective of 'required' reading.

I'm wondering why you seem to have the view that "Hamas wants to obliterate Israel" is something that others invented... do you feel that? Do you recognize that it is from their own charter? (please give a yes/no answer here because it would be a sticking point in any discussion aiming for progress)

I have accessed numerous quotes of Khalid Mashaal.. .HAMAS leader.

They don't encourage me.

2006
Exiled Hamas political leader Khaled Mashaal said his group would not recognize Israel, but it wants to join a national unity government with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' rival Fatah faction.

2007 Hamas violently ousts Fatah! (simple historical fact)

Look for words in Mashaals statements like this
-"Long term truce"
-"Accept the reality of the Zionist entity, but not recognize it"
-Right of return for refugees.

If those types of phrases pepper Mashaals statements...you need to be wise as a fox to discern what he is really saying.

Mashaals selected quotes (Wiki)

* "Tomorrow, our nation will sit on the throne of the world. This is not a figment of the imagination, but a fact. Tomorrow we will lead the world, Allah willing. Apologize today, before remorse will do you no good. Our nation is moving forwards, and it is in your interest to respect a victorious nation."

* "Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die, they will experience humiliation and degradation every day."

Foxy, do you hear Israeli leaders speaking like this? I don't.

Long term....this is what we all should be cogniscent of:

http://www.imemc.org/article/58018

Dear Polycarp,

I've already answered your question on Hamas.
Go back and re-read my posts on this thread.

What I find distressing is that you don't
seem to make any distinction between an occupied
people and those who occupy them.
Israel talks about the right of self-defence.
How can an occupier claim self-defence but
deny the right to those who are occupied and have
the right of self-defence with whatever means
are available to them?

I don't know of a way to measure suffering,
or how to quantity pain, but I do know that
Palestinians are not children of a lesser God.

As for Loewenstein's book being classed as you
suggest, as 'brain-washing?'
No. it's a plea for mutual respect and understanding.
The author's main concern is for a sustainable
future for both Israel and Palestine.

If in Australia we were under foreign occupation and
denied the right to vote, denied the right to run
our affairs, denied the right to work for three
generations, I suspect that if it happened here, we
would react as well.

There seems to be a double standard:

If a young Jewish boy goes and joins the Israeli
army, and ends up killing many Palestinians in operations
and can come back, that is wholly legitimate. But
for a young Muslim boy, who might think: I want to
defend my Palestinian brothers and sisters and get
involved, he is branded a terrorist.

One eyed people have a skewed perspective
on the conflict.

I won't be responding on this topic any further.
Simply because I don't see us making any progress.
We'll simply have to agree to view things differently
on this, and many other subjects.

And, if that makes
me a 'bigot,' in your eyes? W
Well, I guess that's something
I will have to learn to live with.

All The Best,

Hmmm dear Foxy...I hope you can squeeze one more response out of your heart here.. because I went to the trouble of joining the Ringwood library and borrowing Loensteins book...which I've now already read some of.

I focused on the pages you mentioned 244-245 and the only reference to Hamas and 'settlement' was this: (bottom of 244- top of 245)

QUOTE: "Hamas has a history of launching terror attacks agains Israeli CIVILIANS and a charter that specifically seeks the destruction of Israel, .....
but....
numerous Hamas spokespeople have suggested that a neotiated settlement with Israel is a possibility, based on 67 borders."
UNQUOTE:

May I humbly ask... does it not seem a bit of a worry that he simply 'asserts' this.. without a single reference or footnote.. not a single actual quote from any Hamas person.

Now.. I would not consider the simple 'assertion' of something as important as that to be convincing argument.

I've provided a number of actual Hamas quotations myself in various threads, properly attributed and sourced. Loewenstein did not.

You saw the quotes from the Hamas leader.. Mashaal... in my last post. You did not dispute them.

What you seem to be disputing is Israel's right to exist.

Mashaal says "We do not fight the Jews because of their culture or faith, but because of what they imposed on us by force"

He also says:(In the same article)

<<We shall never recognise the right of any power to rob us of our land and deny us our national rights. We shall never recognise the legitimacy of a Zionist state created on our soil in order to atone for somebody else's sins or solve somebody else's problem. But if you are willing to accept the principle of a long-term truce, we are prepared to negotiate the terms.>>

"Long Term Truce"....there it is. Notice "We shall NEVER recognize.."

Foxy... do you accept Israels right to exist in that region?
Does Mashaal/(Hamas) ?

Dear Polycarp,

If you're going to quote something, why don't
you give the complete quote, instead of
selecting an emphasis?

What Khalid Mish'al actually said was:

"We shall never recognise the right of any power
to rob us of our land and deny us our national
rights. We shall never recognise the legitimacy
of a Zionist state created on our soil in order
to atone for somebody else's sins or solve
somebody else's problem. But if you are willing
to accept the principle of a long-term truce,
we are prepared to negotiate the terms.
Hamas is extending a hand of peace to those who
are truly interested in a peace based on justice."

Now you can say "AHA!" Polycarp!

Do you still not get it?

As for deriding Antony Loewenstein for not giving
references, footnotes, et cetera. He actually has.
On page 245 of his book reference 62 is cited.
And, if you look up Reference 62 which is listed
in Loewenstein's comprehensive notes on page 314,
there's the reference to the article by Khalid
Mish'al in, The Guardian, Tuesday 31 January 2006.

If you look up that article on the web - you can read it
in its entirety of what Khalid Mish'al actually
has to say:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/31/comment.israelandthepalestinians

Loewenstein also supplies you with complete
references chapter by chapter, plus a
Bibliography and a list of websites.

As for your question, "Do I believe in the
right of Israel to exist in that area?"

You obviously don't read any of my posts
in full, or you don't understand what
I've been trying to say because just like
Loewenstein, I've said it many times,
I support the state of
Israel and believe in its existence
but there must be a way for Israel
to exist securely while allowing justice
for the Palestinian people.

I trust that you'll finally get it!

cont'd

Polycarp you ask if Khalid Mish'al
accepts the right of Israel to exist
in the region, look up the website
I gave you.

In it Khalid Mish'al clearly states:

"Our message to the Israelis is this:
we do not fight you because you belong to
a certain faith or culture. Jews have
lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries
in peace and harmony; they are in our
religion "the people of the book" who have a
covenant from God and His messenger Myhammad
(peace be upon him) to be respected and protected.
Our conflict with you is not religious but
political. We have no problem with Jews who have
not attacked us - our problem is with those who
came to our land, imposed themselves on us by
force, destroyed our society and banished our people..."

"Palestinians voted for Hamas
because of our refusal to give up their rights.
But we are ready to make a just peace."

Hi Foxy :)

ok... I read those posts.. and now I understand that 'you' accept some kind of Israel can exist.

You believe it is possible for Israel to exist (somehow) and for their to be a 'just' solution for the Palestinians.

Now.. I don't argue with that.... unfortunately.. HAMAS and Mishaal do.

Their idea of 'just' is somewhat different from yours I suggest.

If 'their' idea is...

"Right of return for all displaced Palestinians AND their offspring to places they formerly lived in"

Does that concur with your idea? If not...can you describe your meaning of 'just' for them?

But remember..there were many Jewish purchases of land... the events which brought about the 'State' were Arab Attacks and the Jewish response+plus a zionist element.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War#UN_Partition_Plan

The partition plan seemed very fair to me.. Arabs rejected it, and began fighting the Jews.. Given the large numbers of Arabs within the Jewish section (438,000 Arabs 499,000 Jews) I can see why the Jews might have wanted improve the odds a bit.

Jerusalem... UN control. (good idea)

What I find hard to grasp is why there were so many Arabs happy to sell their land to the Jews.. and did so... why the land of the Arabs in the Jewish area could not have been bought by the UN/Jews/Whoever for Jewish use,.. to facilitate a less frictional demographic.

I think the sticking point of controversy between us.. is that:

I don't believe Mashaal/Hamas have any room for Jews in Israel (ultimately) and any mention of 'just/fair' by them... means "
a) All Palestinians return to former land.
b) bide out time and opportunity to rid Palestine of all Jews"

But you... aah.. u feel that Mr Mashaal shares your (Western) compassion :)

I don't see that the Jews came to the land by force except in the final stages after they were attacked by Arabs after they bought land.

Well.. we can only let history decide it.

Oh.. FOXY.. my turn for a PS :)

Mishaal says:

<<We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us - our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people.>>

Does that explain why they are launching 30 to 80 rockets per day indiscriminantly on Jewish civilian targets including a kindergarten yestday?

I get the impression Mr Mishaal is good at soundbites and rhetoric..... for the consumption of Western media... but the hard reality simply does not stack up.

Another thing I find disturbing. Hamas miltants did suicide missions against supply entry points.. one for fuel and one for another type of aid.

As for 'children'...here..this should convince you of the innocence of Hamas....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M5D5_m93A0&feature=email
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9Np_2vkbT4&feature=related

The Arab breaking of UN partition. (Deliberately)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHmBiATUono&feature=related

Fighting only stopped when the UN threatened to FIGHT the Arabs.

But.. I'd love to see the reply Mr Mishaal gives to your letter asking what he means by 'Just' solution :)

I think I've said too much already.

hey polycarp you wanna reply to this from the 7.30 report?

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2008/s2461130.htm

Israel condemned for attacks on UN schools

Australian Broadcasting Corporation

Broadcast: 07/01/2009

Reporter: Scott Bevan

Overnight 40 Palestinians died in a strike on a school run by the United Nations Relief & Works Agency (UNRWA).

The school and other facilities like it also run by URNWA provide education, healthcare, social services and emergency aid to nearly 500,000 refugees in Gaza. Christopher Gunness from UNRWA speaks with the 7.30 Report from Jerusalem.

seems israel been perpetrating FRAUD showing old footage claiming LIES so it can murder children

and you dare call yourselves gods people?

you ever read the bible/torah
[that bit about THOU shalt not MURDER?]

what about it cant you get?

but your more a talmud dude right?

http://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm
quotations;from the Soncino Edition of the Talmud,(Book)

YEBAMOTH,60b...Rabbi.Ramanos who conducted an inquiry and'found'in it the daughter of a'proselyte'who was under the age of three years and one day(14),and Rabbi declared her eligible to live with a priest(15)."

(footnotes)"(13)A proselyte under the age of three years and one day may be married by a priest...(14)And was married to a priest.(15)i.e.,permitted to continue to live with her'husband'."

(Book)

SANHEDRIN,55b-55a:"What is meant by this?Rab said:Pederasty with a child below nine years of age is not deemed as pederasty with a child above that.

(footnotes)"(1)The reference is to..the passive..'subject'/victim..of sodomy

god will be proud[NOT}

Dear Polycarp,

Khalid Mish'al says:

"Your logic is absurd. You absolve the
aggressor and occupier - armed with the
deadliest weapons of death and destruction
of responsibility, while blaming the victim,
prisoner, and occupied. Their modest, home-
made rockets are their cry of protest to the
world..."

The Guardian, Tuesday 6 January 2009,
published an article by Khalid Mish'al,
which will answer your questions, and
sum up the current situation. You can read
the article at:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel-hamas

Dear Foxy....hope you are coping with your loss.. *hug*..

My view is, that CNN or any major news service should provide stark contrasts of reality, so that people will see the full picture.

1/ HAMAS instructing little children about how to hate and kill 'evil Jews'....

2/ Pictues of Palestinian children being taken to hospital.

3/ Commentary which raises the question of a 'connection' between what HAMAS is teaching/brainwashing them with..and their present predicament.

I might do a YOUTUBE video myself on this very topic.

OCCUPIER.....VICTIM. Yep... the Arab/Muslim occupiers of Israel have victimized the Jews of Palestine for centuries, including massacering many in Hebron 1929..now many Jews of the world have returned to their homeland.

Seems we are back to the issue of "Should Israel exist" foxy...
As I said..'you' agree that it should.... but the man you quote simply admits it is a 'reality' with which a long term truce can be negotiated. Yes..they say with these conditions.

- Right of return of all Palestinians. (=Majority Arab in Israeli areas = Army in waiting)

- East Jerusalem capital of Palestinian state. ( why?.... cannot be anything other than religious)

- 67 Borders. which raises the questions as follows:

a) Where will the 200,000 Jewish settlers in East Jerusalem go?
b) Where will the 282,362 Jewish settlers in the West bank go?

NOw.. we might suggest.. "Oh..they can go to other countries"...

So....why cannot the Palestinians do the same?

Or..we might say "They can be absorbed into the rest of Israeli territory covered by the original mandate"

AAah.. the Arabs HAD the chance for this to be a current reality but they REJECTED it in 1948 and declared WAR on Jews. No second chances there I'm afraid. What's gone is gone.. for eternity. (sound arrogant? :) I'm just using Hamas Charter terminology)

Dear Polycarp,

Why do you persist in asking questions that you
already know the answers to? You've got Loewenstein's
book from the Ringwood Library, haven't you read it?
Because you should understand the Palestinian situation,
and not ask the questions that you do.

Loewenstein tell us:

"The state of Israel was born on 14 May 1948 with Ben-Gurion
reading a statement heralding a new Jewish age. Israel had
consumed much of Palestine, except the West Bank and
East Jerusalem (controlled by Jordan )_ and Gaza (administered
by Egypt). By now, only 20% of Israel's population was
non-Jewish. The Declaration of Independence pledged that
Israel would be based on the notions of peace, justice
and liberty as conceived by the Prophets of Israel, that
it would uphold the principles of the UN charter and that
it would give equal rights to the country's Arab citizens."

Loewenstein says, "Many facts of 1948 remain hidden.
Benny Morris...in a startling interview published in
"Haaretz" in 2004, discussed Israel's early crimes against
the Palestinians. He told of the many massacres and rapes
carried out by Israeli forces in 1948 and contended that
expulsion orders originated with Ben Gurion himself.

'Ben Gurion was right,' Morris argued. 'There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing...A Jewish state would
not have come into being without the uprooting of 700 000
Palestinians...The need to establish this state in this place
overcame the injustice done to the Palestinians by uprooting
them.'

This argument as Loewenstein confirms "goes to the heart of
a dominant strand of Zionist thinking time and time again,
supporters of Israel justify the killing and persecution
of Palestinians as necessary to protect and maintain the
Jewish homeland."

Dear Foxy

When Japan declared war on Australia, we rounded up all Japanese and interned them.

When the Arabs declared war on the Jews in 1936-1948 .. can you see any difference in the Israelis rounding up and interning those who declared war on them? I can't.

Those displacements occurred after the Arabs began a war aimed at wiping out every Jew.
Does it matter if specific orders where given "remove the Arabs/(they have declared war on us)?

Did the Arabs declare war on the Jews? That's really the only question you, Morris and Loewenstien have to answer...the rest follows naturally.

On the issue of the rapes.. according to Morris there were.. '12'
If the people who committed them are still alive..I don't have a problem with them being brought to a war crimes trial.

ANOTHER SIDE of the 'displacement' picture (that you didn't mention)

"At the same time, it turns out that there was a series of orders issued by the Arab Higher Committee and by the Palestinian intermediate levels to remove children, women and the elderly from the villages. So that on the one hand, the book reinforces the accusation against the Zionist side,

but

on the other hand it also proves that many of those who left the villages did so with the encouragement of the Palestinian leadership itself."

See that last sentence? aaah.."balance" :)

Dear Polycarp,

Politeness inhibits me to react to your
latest post.

Therefore, all I will say is, that after
re-reading some of your posts on this topic
all I can suggest is that we both pray, that
the international community and the US will
apply pressure to have this Israeli/Palestinian
conflict resolved in a secure and just manner
for all concerned.

Grace and Peace,

poly..[i have just read[your other post]to the topic,..in which you reveal that the arabs held no hatred or fear of their abrahamic cousins returning to the shared homeland

this follows on that post,but i will respond to the tone in this one,..but hopefully in the tone of the other

here is the quote<<When the Arabs declared war on the Jews in 1936-1948 .. can you see any difference in the Israelis rounding up and interning those who declared war on them?..I can't.>>

first comes the issue of the date[i feel 1936 to be closer to the date on which the other letters[opinions?]were written..of course[this quoted extract was more about what it evolved into by 1948?..but what went wrong my brother?what changed...[and i dont mean for a one way blame]..yes the arabs felt the need to attack[but why]?..there must have been a specific change[of attitude or circumstance],

i understand that many arabs were fed some fear that resulted in them locking their homes and running away from something[but they died still with the keys to their former homes[thus mmust have had some expectation of return]

but the quote i want to respond to is this>>When Japan declared war on Australia,we rounded up all Japanese and interned them<<

yes the japenese were interned[for 4 years]not 3 generations

but another point

re-this ongoing'war'..[and ongoing war it must be.as the internment continues to this day]..could well have been avoided if israel had extended the assistance it chose to do via proxy DIRECTLY..,so that semite bothers were seen to be helping the arabs,with education /hospitals,aid and comfort,directly,..like hamas did

it is not yet too late to extend that hand to your brothers,to rebuild the good will that was[its a case of build it and the world will come to see gods holy-land in peace]

i understand the pope comes later in the year,it would be wonderfull if he saw that unity is not only a possability,but a reality

if not for your brothers,or the pope
please consider doing it for god

any how here is to better times
shalome
may gods peace be with you

Dear Foxy ... :) most of what I wrote was history... you don't need to worry about being polite and not responding.. just tell it like you see it.
The Palestinians of Gaza could have a happy peaceful life.. all they need do is halt rockets, rid themselves of terrorist/genocidal Hamas and accept international monitors on the Egypt Border. "problem solved".

UOG.. you ask a most important question. "WHAT CHANGED?" in the Arab attitude?

That is probably the single most important question we ALL can ask regarding this conflict.

Consider this. HEBRON MASSACRE 1929....WHY? simple.. false rumors were spread to the effect that Jews in Jerusalem were destroying/taking over Muslim holy places. That's it. Now..the next important question:

WHO SPREAD THOSE RUMORS? At a guess..I'd say the grand Mufti of Jerusalem who was later on HITLERS payroll.

That evil degenerate man, spent his life absolutely dedicated to the cause of anti semitism, he helped form SS squads of Bosnian Muslims to assist in the Genocide of Jews.
Next time you watch a video of HEZBOLLAH and HAMAS.. note the similarities in there SALUTE to the 'Heil Hitler' sign of the Nazi's.
Instead of saying Heil Hitler, they say "Allahu Akbar".

INTERNING OF ENEMY. Japanese were released when we had WON the war and hostilities had ceased. HAMAS is still firing rockets and sounding more and more like General TOJO and the Japanese militarists by the day.

NAZISM=HEZBOLLAH=HAMAS=OUR ENEMY.

THE POPE...UNITY.

Unity was a definite possiblity UOG.. in 1948. The Arabs in Palestine rejected that....now they are still paying the price.

UNITY? I don't think that's possible, but peace is. Its the same solution as some of us have been putting forward many times now.

1/ Hamas stop firing rockets.
2/ Hand over remaining rockets for destruction.
3/ Renounce their Charter calling for the destruction of Israel.
4/ Accept indpendant Monitors of the Egypt border.

I'd add
5/ Hand over all who ordered or participated in rocket firing against Israeli civilians as WAR CRIMINALS for trial and punishment.

That's the way it works when you win, you decide who of the losing side should be punished. We did it.. every other alliance has done it.. Israel should also.

FINAL THOUGHT: All carnage and tragic human cost to Palestinians in Gaza is 100% the fault of HAMAS.

poly-carper>>FINAL THOUGHT:All carnage and tragic human cost to Palestinians in Gaza is 100% the fault of HAMAS>>..yeah thats your[only]thought[LOL}

while conducting mass/murder every bit as vile as the'natzi'oppression

you are blindly leading the defense of israel offense]...repeatedly saying to the rape victim..;this is your fault..while raping ever more visiously,..the more you rape the more and louder you proclaim'you'are the'victim'

is there no end to the delusion and collusion[you]will undertake to murder what is a clear victim...feebilly retaliating unspeakable violence with pathetic attempts to resist a very persistant and ongoing abuse

you complain all'they'need to do is lie-down..[and stop resisting as you validate your illegitimate manhood by ever more vile violence upon innocent children,much no doudt as the natzies before you did..YOU did the same?..when your people got raped by the same mindless[natzi]agression upon unarmed civilians..young/old and feeble

just like the palisteins now dont dare resist..instead are led meakly into the phospher/gas chambers by zionist capoes[their own]who like the culags capoes betray their own]

much like the arab league[now]in league with the mindless evil today
and who used the same..media led vilification propaganda campain's about the jew..as you do today

the world watches meakly today..as it did last time..as the same evil perversions are excused by media/lies and deceptions,...as you repeat the same[insane]natzie attrocities of yesterday...[based on the same delusions/excuses]

making much the same ultimatums..stop resisting and go take a cold shower..stop resisting im not really doing what you think im doing..its so typically phycotic..manipulated BY THE LIKES AS YOU into this mass phycosis[your posts are initiating]..live time even now

by your deeds are you revealed/reviled..your talmud is the spawn of your delusion's...every bit as vile as mein/camp was in the last genocide..but clearly your insanity has blinded you

made you repeat the very evil you never tried to forget..yet expect they will[lol]...[and wont let us ever forget]

[well guess what your acts live time now..ensure we know your delusional/phycotic-type and we know how you think..muder by whatever means and as long as the victim resists

hollow cost indead..murder by any other name is murder
its time to end this madness[NATZI]

Dear Polycarp,

Israel keeps trotting out, as do you,
the Hamas rockets case, to justify its attack
on Gaza.

According to Dennis Rahkonen, who writes
for the Online Journal...

"The rockets are little more than slingshots,
against Israel's incredible military might,
and they're used out of desperation by
Palestinians who've never been accorded the
democratic space within which to gain redress of
their grievances.

We've been asked, what would we do if rockets were
being launched at our homes by our neighbours?

Well, if our neighbours had been unlawfully
occupied or embargoed by us for 60 years of
relentless oppression and repression, and if
all attempts at peaceful change had been
forcefully prevented or scuttled by us, then
such attacks would be understandable, it would
be a justifiable attempt at gaining intolerably
deferred liberty.

An appropriate response from us wouldn't be to
bomb the hell out of our neighbours. An
appropriate response would be to ask ourselves,
"What have we done wrong to incur their anger?"

And then correct the situation.

The Palestinian Kassam rockets
caused very, very few deaths or serious wounds.

By contrast, Israel has terrorized 1.5 million
Gazans, locked them inside their awfully
narrow borders, throttled their economy, and
killed and seriously wounded thousands...

This is insane. Israel is the superpower of
the Middle East, but they want us to think of
them as still being the Jews of Europe in the
1930s or the Israelites under Pharaoh.
They spend a lot more time fighting their enemies
than they might if they looked at the whole picture,
not just their half of it.

At any time during the past six decades, Israel
could have had peace, simply by agreeing to
the Palestinian's right to their own, unitary,
sovereign homeland.

There's a veritable holocaust happening in densely
packed Gaza. Think the Warsaw Ghetto, with all the
irony that comparison involves.

New Osama bin Ladens are being born as innocents in
Gaza are getting ripped to shreds by American-made
Hellfire missiles, dispatched toward fleshly targets
by Israeli pilots."

This has got to stop, before it's too late.

Dear Polycarp,

You're not interested in facts.
Because you ignore them.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab
villages. You do not even know the names of
these Arab villages, and I do not blame you
because geography books no longer exist. Not only do
the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there
either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul;
Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid
in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place
of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in
this country that did not have a former Arab population."
(Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa,
reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969).

And:

"The issue of Palestinian refugees resonated with me
because I myself was a refugee. We came to the US in
August 1944 as part of a token group of about 1,000
mostly Jewish reugees...In 1987, when I read Simha Flapan's
"The Birth of Israel:Myths and Realities," I was shocked
and disbelieving that it took me a second reading of his
book to come to erms with what he wrote at the outset:
that the 1948 was was as needless and unnecessary for the
"security" of Israel as was the Israeli invasion of
Lebanon of 1982.

I learned that...the 1948 war was not defensive, but a
war to gain more territory than the UN had allotted for the
Jewish state and to "cleanse" the area of Palestinian
Arabs. I learned that even before the May 15 invasion
by Arab armies, Jewish forces had succeeded in expelling
some 300,000 Palestinians from their homes, but
another 400,000 Palestinians remained in areas that the Jews
coveted.

Since the Jewish population in 1948 was only about 600,000,
the Ben0Gurion leadership REQUIRED WAR in order to rid
the new Jewish state of most of its Arab population."
(Ronald Bleier, Nov. 1992).

As Anatoli Kuznetsov wrote,
"History cannot be deceived, and it is
impossible to conceal something from it
forever."