Hi everyone
I've been away in Melbourne so am a bit behind with this. Pericles, I tried to address your questions insofar as I don't really know the answer to them; that is, where is the "line in the sand" to be drawn. I admit also that having my dogs confronts me with the ethical dilemma you describe. Among the reasons for that dilemma is the fact that my dogs are carnivorous and I am therefore making a contribution of sorts to the cruelty of livestock farming. Fundamentally perhaps it is the wrong thing to do, but you mentioned the quantum of cruelty.

I do take issue with your contention that it's okay for medical or commercial purposes, however. If you want to put the line in the sand over "pets", and in that description I include dogs and cats, then should it not be all or nothing? Greyhounds are kept for "commercial" purposes just as sheep dogs are. I have a particular dislike of birds being kept in cages for any purpose including "companionship".

Returning to the quantum of cruelty, my view is that we should attack the worst of the cruelties first; those being factory farming, the export of any live animal for any purpose, animals used in "entertainment" and vivisection. So let's go back to the fundamental question - it is cruelty we are considering here, and look at each of the ethical issues as we find them.

More later.
Nicky

“Ban it. It's barbaric. So is horse racing, camel racing etc.” Very good Pericles. However, you appear to have remained silent on the issue of the barbaric treatment of sheep, cattle, pigs or battery hens, therefore, I must presume that you meant to include these in your ban too?

The matter of responsible pet ownership by owners who have a deep affection for their animals appears to be beyond your comprehension. These pets are not enslaved.

As I have mentioned, try getting rid of an animal you have treated kindly. Those pets who have fled their owners tell another story. No pet will flee a kindly owner, however, your ideology has not altered at all from the one you presented months ago and I believe you are all the poorer for it.

Perhaps your skills would be better utilised by lobbying against the human species who enslave and brutalise their women? Thousands of these women end up in refuge centres in Australia too. Then of course, "the morality of a nation can be judged by the way it treats its animals" eh?

Regulation of pet ownership is pathetic and therein lies the problem. Animal cruelty laws need a serious overhaul. Elevated fees and a short term TAFE accreditation course, together with the sterilisation of all pets by six months of age and yard and housing inspections should be mandatory as a starting point, to mitigate pet ownership by cretins.

Enforcement of new laws would see a significant reduction in pet ownership. However, when one reads of some dozen or so cruelty prosecutions annually regarding pet ownership, one cannot compare that with the institutionalized heinous brutality perpetrated with impunity, on millions of enslaved, commercial animals.

However, laws to prevent cruelty to pets do exist but the law permits cruelty and enslavement of commercial animals. Therefore, if you want to persist with your bans, shouldn’t they first be imposed where cruelty and enslavement is most prevalent, which happens to be the legalised torture and captivity of commercial animals?

I reiterate, what is your agenda and what is your “illumination” point?

The facts of the matter are quite simple,....cruelty is being perpetrated every single day upon animals of all types and species.

Those members of society who do NOT have affinity with animals can never be converted to the situation of accepting empathy with any of the species,....it is a human trait which is born into us, NOT created, consequently these empathy-lacking members of society should NOT be allowed to own or be involved in any form of occupation that puts them in close contact with animals.

Strict rules regarding animal ownership (to poorly coin a phrase)should be implemented by all authorities, ensuring that the care and maintenance of all types of animals is allowed by genuinely caring persons ONLY, with severe penalties enshrined in animal welfare rules and regulations.....Any person or persons who have been found responsible for acts of cruelty against animals should NEVER be allowed to obtain any further animals regardless of their individual situation!

The only way to stamp out cruelty is by the administration of very harsh financial penalties and public humiliation campaigns, directed openly by the community against the perpetrators of these heinous crimes.

Watch for the increased dumping of Christmas pets as we enter the New Year period and all the unthinking parents find that they cannot afford to feed their newly aquired pets!

Every Dog and Cat should be compulsorily registered, chipped and sterilized shortly after birth and severe penalties should be applied to all owners who refuse or fail to have their animals sterilized by humane means (eg: Government Vets). Exceptions would apply where a dog or cat is classed as breeding stock, however Breeding Licences would be required to prove exemption.

Excellent post Cuphandle. We really need to get serious about who can keep animals as pets.

I believe that birds should be excluded (as pets) too - the only cage large enough for our avian brethren is the sky itself.

However, mammals like dogs and cats have home territories and enjoy company - cats are not nearly as solitary as some people like to think.

Now Pericles I know you can give plenty of examples of owner cruelty - so can I. Although I thought while I wrote about increased life-span of pets that you'd retort with 'slave-owner' mentality and you did. Nonetheless, a long healthy life-span does reflect good mental and physical health and figured it was worthwhile stating.

I think about the animals I have shared my life with and wonder where the evidence of cruelty is - of which you speak. I am a very perceptive empathic person, can always tell if an animal is unwell. My old cat would always snuggle into me closer than usual if he was unwell. My current cats will sit outside waiting for me if I am late home - even if it is raining. I'm sure you are aware of a cat's distaste for water.

What I am trying to get at is how do you know that my pets are slaves? How could their lives be made better than what they are at present?

Cuphandle, that was excellent comment. Those who keep pigs and chickens currently in the grossly abusive conditions they do should be exposed to the public, as should those convicted of any cruelty offences (have a look at a website I found www.stoptac.org and go to The Law - that's what has been done there).

Fractelle, I'm with you. I think that I can state with certainly that my dogs do not consider themselves to be "enslaved" (more the reverse, if anything). PALE made a valid comment too; that farm dogs certainly do it tougher than "pet" dogs. We're back to that "line in the sand".

I think that "registered breeders" also require closer scrutiny, since they are undoubted contributors to the 200,000 dogs needlessly destroyed every year, and the so-called "designer" breeds are a whole new curse. The numbers of these breeders should be limited and their establishments inspected at least quarterly.

No live animal should be exported for any purpose.

Pericles, you remain silent on the "enslavement" of factory farmed animals, or animals bred for food generally (all these places should be open to the public, and should be able to be photographed and filmed; that would put some of the worst atrocities under scrutiny, and possibly encourage people to make more humane choices about what food they buy). Why is that? Is the pet thing a red herring?

Nicky

In philosophical terms, Pericles is of course absolutaly correct,
but few pet owners think about life to that extent.

Alot of pets might well like their owners, but so did alot of
slaves.

Fact is that these creatures have been trained from day 1, that
their owner is their only way to make a living. The more they
wag their tails and snuggle up to their owners, the more food
is the result. They are not silly :)

They are of course acting out of self interest, as does every other
creature.

So for how long would these "pets" stick around, if you stopped
feeding them?