Interesting responses, Boaz.

Neither makes a great deal of sense, I'm afraid.

>>1/ yes, I'm sure black holes exist. (was that some kind of trick question?)<<

You are sure?

You haven't seen one. There are no references to black holes in the bible. All you have to go on is a bunch of scientific theories, yet somehow you are sure there are black holes.

It isn't a trick question - although the certitude of your response did surprise me, I must confess. I was more interested in how our creationists explain these phenomena to themselves, when there is no "guiding truth" available in the form of an ancient set of books.

But this stumped me completely.

>>There have been many examples of scientific fraud ...<<

Who mentioned fraud?

Your spluttering sarcasm - "No book of truth ? :) errrr *cough*.." etc., was aimed at Celivia's point that...

"Scientists, unlike creationists, do not have a ‘book of one truth’ in which they have faith and which they need to protect from criticism."

No hint of fraud there. Simply an observation that science is continuously on the move, finding new and clearer explanations for the features of our universe. And along with it comes the certainty that there is no certainty, only the latest and cleverest balance of evidence.

Scientists do of course defend their theories, quite vehemently at times. But logic, precision of thought and careful analysis of existing data will invariably win the day.

Temporarily, of course.

The thing is Gibo, today religion is biiig business! I note in
today's West, an article about the old Pope spending 200 Grand to
put on a concert for his brother's birthday celebration. So much
for helping the poor etc.

Tele evangelists, the clap and sing Church in Sydney I'm told
collects around 50 million a year, lets face it religion is
flogging a product. The promise of a life after death, the joys
of heaven, no torture in hell if one behaves, etc. etc.

Now if I go out and flog a product to consumers, I need to be able
to prove my claims, or the ACCC will come along and do me in for
false advertising.

Religion of course is exempt from all this. Its a miracle :)

You claim whatever you want, no matter how crazy, take peoples money,
promise them whatever you feel like promising and get away with
it all scott free and usually without paying a cent in income tax.

Wow what a clever business!

Yet after 2000 years of Christianity, one would think that somebody
could provide some substantiated evidence, that what you are claiming
is true. So far 2000 years of failure, no substantiated evidence.

Isn't it about time that religions, which earn huge amounts of
money after all, are accountable for their claims, like any other
business?

Where is your substantiated evidence for your claims Gibo?

BTW, I was born just fine the first time, so no need to be born
again :)

.

Yabby! Your a legion! lol. and this is one of my arguments.

ITS A CON! financially for the dollar!= destroyed credabilty.

But faith is cool. and back to the point. Its all guess work and so is science. Could it be, we are all on the same page? but just in a different time frame?

Genesis! mmmmmm! Interesting.

Larry, moe, and joe! any comments?

EVO

Thanks Celivia.

What you about scientists said was interesting.
The evolutionists, the real critics, many of them like the Skeptics, seem to get bogged down with carbon dating and sediments layers.

Sediment layers can form very quickly as I showed in the Mount St. Helens link.
Any data the skeptics groups put up, I find is always frail and Christians will reject it because of Gods conviction that the Word is true.
Many look at the physical realm... yet the Beginnings are in the Spiritual with God.

Evo
“ the world is in deep c&#p”?
Sorry but its going to get a tad worse.
The Bible says that towards the Second Coming there will be a great increase in wars (nations are going to slug it out more), earthquakes will be frequent, famines will spread and diseases are going to sweep the globe (Luke chapter 21).
Crime is going to be much more out of control (2 Timothy 3)
It’s all happening right now.
The worlds falling to bits because of the ungodliness of the people.
They are giving up morality to dance with dark powers in the spirit realm.
Every day we see the fruit of the dance in the media.

Many of the committed Christians that I know have given up on answers to the problems.
We now focus on mostly on Christ’s Second Coming.

Later on we will see huge Christian revival and people seeking the safest place to be... in solid, full, Bible-believing Christian churches.

RObert, “Gibo - which version of the Genesis account do you mean?”
Yes Gibo means the literal interpretation of the Genesis. I think that this guy explains it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaEj3g5GOYA

Gibo, thanks for your reply.
Your Mount St. Helen’s link is interesting, but scientists have not denied that the formation of layers in one type of geologic sedimentation system can form quickly, for example, layers of volcanic ash.
Creationists and scientists agree that this system exists and layers can form quickly.

But what creationists push is only PART of the truth; it is not true that quick formation has happened within other types of systems. For example, parts of the Green River Formation in the US contain about 6 million layers. These represent 3 million years of sedimentation.

If you and your wife find it interesting to learn more about it, just google Green River Formation or Varve Formations and it will become clear to you that what the creationists highlight only part of the truth and that they don’t have an valid argument against the other sedimentation systems where layers have formed slowly.

GY
Genesis as allegory? Symbolic/other meanings?

You might get a clash of opinions from the more lively churches if you challenged Genesis as being a story with other possible things etc behind it.

We take it as the literal truth that God wants to convey.

If we challenge the Word, we can pick it to pieces and then it’s lost.
Its got huge healing power if we get those scriptures into our spirits.
We wouldnt want to lose that.
We don’t challenge it.

I do 3 charismatic churches in the week and we all see Genesis as literal.


The charismatics are the growing power in the churches because the Holy Spirit is with us all the more.
We seek His Gifts and this is seen by the many miracles, healings and wonderful born again experiences in the charismatic churches.

People need a personal relationship with Jesus …not religion.

Sometime ago a Brisbane man went looking to get 'saved' by having someone lead him to Jesus Christ and walked into a traditional Uniting Church looking for hope and got the answer, “We don’t do that here. There’s a charismatic church down the road, they do that there”.

I have no trouble treating The Word as immutable…and I still have room for additional revelation to Christian believers.

The Word doesn’t get touched or altered. We simply test what Comes and if it lines up with The Word and the circumstances we take it to heart.

Foxy.
I wasn’t quarreling on this issue.
There’s been a lot of talk so far, yet, really no one has given an answer to the thread question.


The search for ‘magic and mystery in a modern world’ can lead people, especially susceptible children, over to the dark side of the spirit world…if they push in that direction.
That’s why we, the charismatics, oppose literature like Harry Potter so much.
The practices offered by and in Rowling’s literature actually open doors to demon powers.
Feeding youngsters 'magic and mystery' is very dangerous.