Getting born in this world is a mistake!

But once we do, we are associated with a body, and that body has a brainful of instincts which drive us crazy, and of particular interest to this thread is the survival instinct.

Retrospectively, yes, mistakes were made: Errare humano est.
Take for example the real case of a Jewish family in 1930's Germany that decided to spread the risk and send, while still possible, each of their children to a different country: USA, England, Poland, U.S.S.R,, France and Palestine. Some children survived, others did not. Of course they made mistakes, they could do better... if only they knew the future...

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
The Jews that settled in Palestine from 1888 on, had only good intentions, including towards their Arab neighbours. There were of course occassional misunderstandings - which is human, but no malice. Those Jews (most of them at least) were hoping to be best friends and include the Arab population in their family, but things started to change in 1929 when Arabs, suddenly and unprovoked, massacred Jews in Hebron and called to kill all Jews. Later on, the Arab Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini, allied with Hitler and spread riots against the Jews.

The Jewish survival instinct was working overtime, one event led to the next and before the Jews knew it, they had no chance of surival except by having their own state and a strong army, something they probably would not have contemplated otherwise.

Creating the state of Israel was a mistake only to the extent that being born is. Once born to the given circumstances, including the absence of prophets, the survival instincts made the state of Israel inevitable.

Anyone contemplating a middle-east solution must take into account this powerful survival-instinct. Sadly today, that mad Mufti's ideas prevail among Arabs: Jews will never be tricked into anything wishy-washy that doesn't ensure their survival.

If "Israel" was a mistake then every settled/conquered country today also is.

That...is the 'secular' (Examinator) way of looking at it.

RELIGOUS VIEW is pretty much that God has a purpose for restoring Israel to the land promised to Abaham...but if one tries to understand modern Israel in terms of the Abahamic and Mosaic covenant (Read Deuteronomy) one would have to assert that the current spiritual condition of most Israelies merits their 'exile' just as it did on Jeremiah's day.
The New Testament alludes to the return/restoration of the Jews to the land.. Ezekiel speaks of a re-building of the race and the land, which culminates in a restored temple.

make of it what you will.

SECULAR VIEW.. it seems to me that in absense of a religious understanding of the place and it's history, the only way for Israel to understand itself..and for others also, is in terms of power balance.. most countries which delcare indepenance do so on the basis of some kind of power base..then, when they appear viable.. are recognized and trade goes on.
There can be no moral judgement on the Israelies from a secular perspective.. as atheistic secularism does not recognize any foundation for morality other than power.
The dubious 'Human Rights' convention is just a piece of paper which depends for it's validity on being recognized by states..which in turn are based on power.

Have fun with this one :)

IamJoseph

YOU MISUNDERSTAND ME!
When I wrote "Israelis must understand the real conditions in their region " I mean the current conditions in the region and NOT IN THE STONE AGE.

1. The USA are in decline and they have to solve many basic internal problems, 49% of taxpayers money go to wars or former wars.
2. The oil soon will finish and the region will lose its strategic value.

3. The region is passing to European Union, remember the meeting in Parish from all Mediterannean countries, including Israel and Syria, for the Mediteranean Union. European governments are more neutral than USA and they want from Israel to respect Palestinians rights and try for a permanent solution with Palestinians and other Arab countries.

4. Arab despotic, non democratic regims will lose the support from USA and will have huge political problems. I believe the there hardline islamists will replace them, as they are the only organizations which resist to the carrent unpopular regimes.

5. The world want a solution to the conflict and Israel's behave to Palestinians, non only sparks a hate for it in the Arab and Muslim world but we have an increase of antiJews activities in west countries too. We know that in Europe we had more attacks again Jews last years than against Muslims!

6. Israelis can not continue the militarisation of their life for long time and they want peace,security and prosperity.
Combine all them and many others and you will find that the delay of the solusion is against Israel's interests.

IT IS TIME FOR PROGRESIVE ISRAELIS TO FIGHT FOR A PERMANENT SOLUTION WITH PALESTINIANS. I AM ATHEIST, I DO NOT CARE VERY MUCH FOR RELIGIOUS.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

"The New Testament alludes to the return/restoration of the Jews to the land"

Respectfully, this appears a defunct view. Israel's destiny could not depend on the NT or Quran charges - else she would long ago cease to exist. Consider that statement again - it uses the term 'alludes' quoting the NT, but the OT makes a non-negotiable, definitive prophesy, and does so 1500 years prior to the NT. Terms such as 'alluides' and the 'NT' become irrelevent here. In fact, the most vindicated prophesy in all writ and scripture is the return of Israel, constituting the greatest miracle the last 2000 years.

In contrast, it appears nothing from the NT & Quran can be taken seriously. How can two documents, perporting as revelationary writs, be in utter contradiction of each? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Quran alternatively condones 50% of the NT's core doctrine - namely immaculate birth, then goes on to reject its other 50% which the NT totally depends on - namely the resurrection. Here we see that the Islamic charge of the OT being distorted, is better understood when we examine the fatal contradiction of what the Quran does to the NT.

Other contradictions in history and dates also prevail between these two documents, despite that these scriptures emerged when writings and cross-nation evidences were common place. This says that these two docs cannot make any coherence when they contradict anything in the OT - because they first and foremost contradict each other. Conclusion: both cannot be right - both can be wrong.

But instead of confronting, sorting out and making some sense of each other, both the NT & Quran followers deflect at the Jews, Israel, Zionism and the OT. Clearly, it appears the Jews were 100% right: they become bad/wrong whichever way they turned, and equally they become bad/wrong if they just stayed neutral. The drama humanity faces is the enormous disatser which hovers for over 4 Billion sincerely believing humans - and one which is never confronted by virtue of deflection. Here, being right becomes very dangerous.

The truth wins in the end, and the mistakes are elsewhere.

Top Ten Ideas Changing The World

May 1st 2008 Time Magazine.

Time has made a list of the top ten ideas that are currently changing the world, for religion to be among this list is unbelievable.

Number Ten on this list: '' The Re-Judaizing of Jesus''

So many Millions of Christians are learning the truth about what happened in the first 100 years of Christianity that they are making a move back to Judaism, Back to the roots of Judaism that the first church was a part of, that it's actually changing the world.

So many Christians are learning how and when the church started becoming anti-semitic imo.

So many of Christians are having to admit that the first church had tens of thousands of Jewish believers who were all Pro-Jew,Pro-Israel and zealous for the law of Moses.

We are learning that the first converts celebrated and observed all the Jewish feasts, And so many made pilgrimages to Jerusalem for these Holy feast.

There are so many Christians abandoning Christmas, and Easter upon finding the origins of these Holidays.

So many are going back to the biblical feasts that it's changing the world and how we all view the nation of Israel.

So many Christians are giving their support to the Jews of Israel that it's making a big enough difference to change the world and to be added to the top ten ideas changing the world.

There is a new sherrif in town, and he's Jewish.

Never before in History have so many returned to the truth.

Aren't you ready?

Ten men will grasp ahold of a Jew and say, ''We have heard that God is with you, let us be called by your name''

What a great day it is when Time Magazine recognizes what is going on.

In a time when so many are calling for the destruction of Israel, The world is doing a turnaround and are now in support of Israel, standing with the Jews, come what may.
http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=688441

"1. The USA are in decline"

Compared to? America rebuffed her kin in medevial Europe, and came up with what is the greatest man-made, non-theological treatise for nations and humanity: The Am. Constitution. This gave many groups a refuge to function and emerge on their deeds - while medevial Europe suffocated humanity. Mostly, there is a jealousy presented as a hatred of America - because she overturns many wrong paradigms currently hiding behind religion, as apposed good laws and equality.

"5. The world want a solution to the conflict and Israel's behave to Palestinians"

This is an inadvertant and inculcated lie. The reverse is the case: the Arab muslims do NOT want a solution, but proclaim death to Israel. This is known by all christians in Europe. The Arabs demand what they don't need and what tiny Israel does not have: LAND. They invented the term Palestinians as a political tool, and call a deathly 3-state as a 2-state: a horrific lie condoned by Europe. Fact is, Israel is now encompassing 12% of the land originally allocated her in the Balfour. The creation of Jordan was a great attrocity, and if anything half of the 120 year Arab states should be shut off and handed to the Kurds, Coptics, Drews and others.

The Islamist sectors are demanding and planning new states in Kashmir [even after India gave them two states], China, and Europe - with the doctrine of converting these to Islamic states and forbidding any other religious groups: Islamists are emulating medevial Europe, boasting Europe's blood libels and The Protocols - and Europe is silent of these terrible lies invented by Europe.

IMHO< once the blackmail of oil is overcome, many nations, especially from Asia, will cause a great shift in the world's paradogms, and a NWO will emerge. This will negate many of today's paradigms.