We may as well tackle the big one.

Was Israel a mistake?

Richard Cohen, Op Ed columnist for the Washington Post thinks so. Here are excerpts from his column of 18 July 2006.

"The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake….

"This is why the Israeli-Arab war, now transformed into the Israeli-Muslim war …. persists and widens. ….The underlying, subterranean hatred of the Jewish state in the Islamic world just keeps bubbling to the surface. The leaders of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and some other Arab countries may condemn Hezbollah, but I doubt the proverbial man in their street shares that view.

"There is no point in condemning Hezbollah. Zealots are not amenable to reason. And there's not much point, either, in condemning Hamas. It is a fetid, anti-Semitic outfit whose organizing principle is hatred of Israel…."

See:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-yn/content/article/2006/07/17/AR2006071701154.html

Well, was Israel a mistake?

And has what was once an Israeli-Arab conflict morphed into, not merely an Israeli—Muslim conflict but a Muslim-Jewish conflict?

One issue that is often raised is the issue of Palestinian refugees. The UN defines a Palestinian refugee as:

"…persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict.

"….UNRWA's definition of a refugee also covers the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948. The number of registered Palestine refugees has subsequently grown from 914,000 in 1950 to more than 4.4 million in 2005, and continues to rise…"

See:

http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/whois.html

To the best of my knowledge the passing on of refugee status to descendants in perpetuity is unique to Palestinians.

MOST IMPORTANT

What now?

Correction.

The last part of the original post should read:

MOST IMPORTANT

Whatever your answer to the question, what now?

Of course it was - just look what happened.

Robert Manne, professor of politics
at La Trobe University rarely tackles
the Israel question in his public
writings.

He has supported Israel throughout his life.
He argues for a two-state solution, questions
the need of Jews for a homeland of their own,
"Since World War II, the place of Jews in
all Western societies has been unproblematic"
and charges Israel with greed and arrogance for
not returning all of the occupied territories.

"It's a betrayal of my belief in liberal
democracy to believe that Jews are still under
threat and therefore need a homeland of their own,"
he says.

Alex Dafner, who runs the Yiddish show on SBS Radio is
more outspoken. He believes that a state is central to the
Jewish people. Dafner is highly critical of Israel in its
current form: "It's not socialist; there is real bigotry,
religious intolerance and a lack of respect... My friends
in Israel say there is a need for two or three states in
Israel; one for the religious, one for the secular and one
for the in-between..."

Finally, Ami Eden, national editor of the US Jewish
newspaper "Forward" challenged the establishment
Jewish organisations in the New York Times in 2005,
"It is time Jews recognise that the old strategies no
longer work," he wrote.

"Jewish organisations and advocates fail to grasp that
they are no longer viewed as the voice of the
disenfranchised. Rather, they are seen as the global
Goliath, close to the seats of power and capable of
influencing policies and damaging reputations. As such,
their efforts to raise the alarm increasingly appear
as bullying..."

Personally, Steven, I agree with Dafner who says,
"People often talk about antisemitism and I think
its largely the result of that notion of total
support for Israel, right or wrong. It's hard
to defend policies which in the long term will be
disastrous..."

Like a concrete wall, with Jews on one side and as many
Arabs as possible on the other.

CONT'D

What now?

I agree with Antony Loewenstein when he writes,
"Sooner or later Israel and the Palestinians
will have to meet face-to-face, listen to
each other's grievances and negotiate with
honesty. Only then - and on the condition that
both Israel and the Palestinian state achieve
safety and security will this conflict be
resolved. Neither side has a monopoly on
suffering...but only one has the power to
end the occupation and to recognise that
Israel and Palestine are historically destined to
share the same homeland."

Of course Israel was a disaster! The fact that no Jews in the west wants to live there (apart from the Jewish versions of Osama Bin Laden) speaks volumes for what a stupid idea it was. More Jews are moving to Australia then Australians moving to Israel! The same goes for South Africa! With the Choices of either Australia or Israel the Jewish South Africans pick Australia. What does that tell you!

What Now? It obvious! ALL of Israel staying power is with it political lobbyist in places like Australia and the US with out them Israel would not be able to survive! So one of two thing need to happen!

1. European Australians/Americans etc need to take back the political initiative with regards to Israel polices! They are the elephant in the room and if they cared a tenth as much as the Jews did about middle east policy things would change very quickly. But sadly for both the Jews and the Muslims, Europeans care as much about the middle east as they do about Burma or Zimbabwe. All you get is “Its so terrible what is happening there” or “Somebody should do something” but no action.

While people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet and the plethora of other Europeans who have money to burn are more concerned with AIDS in Africa (which is a lot more important and effects many more people) and other things then the conflict in Israel, nothing will happen and the slack will be taken up by nasty Jews like Sheldon Adelson who does not care about making peace and only wants to further the interest of extremist Jews.

2. The second option and the more obvious one is the Jews in the west take action themselves against Israel. Sir Isaac Isaac was the first aussie to speak out against Israel and as time goes on more and more are doing so. After all if the Jews in the west really cared about the Jews in Israel they would see what a predicament Israel is heading into and try to help out

Alas I don’t think either is going to happen because as history will tell you the concept of the “Jew” should have gone the same way as the concept of the Anglo or the Celt or the Saxon or the many other tribes which have existed though out time. The only way the Jew survived as a concept is though a culture of pure dogmatism racism bigotry and arrogances and it is this culture which is going to lead to Israel’s demise. The concept of compromise is not in the Jewish culture because if it was Jews would not exist as a group they would just be Germans or Aussies or Poms. The Jews are there own worst enemy and always have been.

Israel is going to go the way of the titanic and it will all end in a big mess with EVERYBODY losing. In 100 years time people will look at the star of David in the same way as we look at the Nazi swastika today

The mistake stems from Briton, but there is none to confront this truth.

There was never any need to allocate so many lands to the Arabs. The kurds, druse, coptics and Jews - all predate both Islam and the Arab race.

Briton created these states for 30 barrels of oil - even handing states to family heads as their 'personal and private properties'. Not a single arab state is based on any historical borders - all are based on oil borders.

Briton had no need to dishonour the Balfour Mandate [a mandate being non-negotiable]. This was done illeally - when the jews were at their most helpless, following W.W.11. 80% of Palestine, which was allocated to the jews, was carved out to jordan, and called a 2-state. The arabs did not need a golf course in soccer sized Israel - their biff is no other religion can subsist - but no one wants to confront this hovering premise - till it blows up in the world's faces.

Today, a deathly 3-state is still called a 2-state [WOW!]. If the world stops pretending to be truthful, it must agree there is only one state which was re-established legally, by voting at the UN, with all Arab/Islamic states participating in that Motion. All the regime states are illegal, and if not for Israel - Islam and Christianity would be engaged in all out war: the denial of the Jerusalem temple by muslims negates the Gospels [which claims one Jesus visited there] - far more than it can dent Judaism.

This was the act of the true Judas - and the greatest crime still unattended:

'IT WILL BE AN HISTORIC COMPROMISE TO GRANT TWO STATES IN PALESTINE - ONE FOR THE ARABS AND ONE FOR THE JEWS' - Churchill.

Briton lost its prefix of 'GREAT' above. Jordan should be abolished, and India should retake Pakistan and Bangladesh. Else Eurostan will happen.

"Israel is going to go the way of the titanic and it will all end in a big mess with EVERYBODY losing. In 100 years time people will look at the star of David in the same way as we look at the Nazi swastika today"

Actually, the Star of David proves only Israel's historical legitimacy, and that the jews have never occupied another peoples' lands in all their 4000 year history. This despite being the world's most robbed and dispersed peoples throughout the nations. One can hardly say the same for her accusers? One can hardly speak about israel only via the example of the post-60's Pretend Palestinians - this is a cmmendation, not a fault for a 4000 year nation?

The pretend Palestinians are the world's least effected refugees, with more options and facilities than any other peoples in Geo-History. If the Jew factor was not applicable - the Pretend Pals would never make page 175 once in a century.

The exaggerated verbage and villification, totally devoid of any veracity, speaks more of the accuser than the accused. IMHO, Israel is one of the most legitimate nations in existance - and one of the best. You forgot to nominate any wrongs by Israel - and compared to whom?!

IamJoseph,
Actually it all started with the Russian court with "progoms" and "pales" (areas defined for Jews). About the times when the other empires were crumbling and in their place Nationalism was taking over. Because of the suppression/poverty they faced Jewish Nationalism "Zionism" gathered momentum. Then the Brits in order to get the Jewish financial support promised Israel. There have been 3-4 mass migrations of Jews to Palistine over the years before Israel. The state of Israel wasn't delivered in fact untill 1949 with the help of the USA who wanted a base in the Middle East.

There is no reason for Jews not to be Aussies etc.
Jew defines their religion not their race.
We have our share of 'arrogant'(recalcitrant) Catholics and Protestants too.

In hind sight it was a human disaster when the the jews were allowed to get away with Part of Palestine thanks to the USA. The most disturbingpart was the dubious and in some cases terrorist means used to achieve the takeover. (1935 Zionists bombed the King David Hotel) They disposessed Palestinians who had legal titles to land and property.

But it matters little now Israel exists what is needed is a negotiated settlement instead of playing games. Neither side are innocent.

In 1948 the UN, with wide support, approved a two-state solution. Immediately the Arab nations around Israel attacked the Jews, aborting the Palestian state at birth. That is history, that is why the Palestianians don't have a state (that and the hate). If they are angry, please take it up with their Arab neighbors.

There is another small matter overlooked here. The small matter called the "Bible".

What if... What if the Bible is right? What if the jews were scattered as punishment? What if they were brought back at the "end times" because of a divine plan? What if the nations of the earth arise against Israel?

I hate to say it but it is an interesting scenario. It is almost as if Israel were to be destroyed pleace and love would reigh upon the earth and everything would be fine. No more oil problems because the Arabs would love us. No more Palestian problems and so no more jihad and hate. The earth would be one big happy family. Oh happy day.

Of course there is still one small problem. The God of Israel (or Jesus, in the fundamentalist Christian version) may be sitting up there waiting for the nations of the earth to act against his chosen people. He will not be happy.

It kind of looks like this could happen. Slowly the Jews lose what little support they have, the West turns it back on Israel, the New United Europe says it will protect the jews but changes it mind, the kings of the East want some of the action, Muslims declare their big final jihad, Russia wants some of the spoils - and zump, bang, boom!

Interesting! I should have paid more attention in Sunday School. Maybe the mistake is not Israel.

Kactuz

"Actually it all started with the Russian court with "progoms" and "pales" (areas defined for Jews)."

If the pursuit is for truth, as is mine, then let truth not be corrupted. It all started with medevial european christianity. Islam is emulating Europe, and Europeans are silent of it - they do not speak out for jews when the muslim demands and teachings are 100% false and antithetical: why is that? European christians are silent of falsehoods against Jews even when it hurts them more than it will Jews: why is that? - is the muslim chant negating the jerusalem temple not destructive to the Gospels? Is the vatican a house of diplomacy - or a house for God and truth that it remains silent when muslims call the Jerusalem temple a myth? - and muslims as Palestinians? - when this name was dumped on Jews by Europe [Rome] 2000 years ago! Wow!

Here's an example why Jews were unable to return to the land stolen from them:

'WE WILL NEVER SUPPORT THE RETURN OF THE JEWS TO *THEIR HOMELAND* - BECAUSE THEY REJECTED JESUS' - A genocidal decree by Pope not so Pious.

Does it mean christians should loose Europe because they rejected Mohammed? You can see - such ways will destroy christianity as it did Mighty Rome - and this must be avoided - not tolerated - because there are sincere Godly believing christians - who have been misled. If a christian denies the Jewish homeland, or calls a deathly 3-state as a 2-state, or addresss arab muslims as palestinians - they are speaking the worst form of genocide inclined falsehoods in Geo-History. The truth will do the reverse of setting them free. Denying truth has a use-by date - it is merely a test.

"I hate to say it but it is an interesting scenario."

You have raised the most pivotal and formidable factor stalking humanity. I challenge someone to make a thread: 'WHAT IF THE JEWS ARE RIGHT - AND THEIR VERSION OF THE OT & HISTORY IS CORRECT?' Consider the outcome!

If your talking from a biblical pov, then the answer is in the verse to Abraham: "KNOW FOR A SURETY THY SEED SHALL BE IN BONDAGE' [Genesis]. Now this was prophesized before Jews existed, before Abraham bore a seed, before his name was changed from Abram to Abraham. This means there was yet no sin - one cannot sin before being born - nr punished before existing. Soon after, Abraham was tested grieviously. This signifies the nations are being tested.

And admittedly, the test, if it is such, is very grevious upon christians and muslims: admitting Jews are right - all but negates the NT & Quran - which is unacceptable for today's innocent believers! However, this appears probable even if Jews or israel never existed or were destroyed: the NT & Quran are in abject contradiction of each other - ensuring a face-off looming. In fact, this is only on pause because of deflection upon Israel: the Jews are in fact protecting a great war between two religions.

What I see is, this is hardly a battle for a few acres of barren land. It appears two of the world's greatest religions are trembling at the knees. They are saying they cannot stand if Judaism/Israel stands. Nothing to do with land, occupation, palestinians, zionism, etc, etc, etc. Here, what if the Jews and their version of the Bible is correct - becomes the most scary thing imaginable. And thus far - almost everything stated in the OT is vindicated via relics uncovered - while almost everything said in the NT and Quran shows the reverse.

I have no answer how this hovering tragedy can be avoided - thus the chant to wipe Israel off the map by Islamists - and silence and UN fostering by Europe.

IamJoseph – 'WHAT IF THE JEWS ARE RIGHT - AND THEIR VERSION OF THE OT & HISTORY IS CORRECT?' Consider the outcome!” What a nice thought! We all get to burn in hell while people like IamJoseph gets to live forever in heaven! Sadly for you Joe I doubt if the Jewish bible speaks anything like the truth.

The Jewish bible has NOTHING of truth or fact in it! NONE of its stories have ever been proven and if you have read some of them as I have you would have to think Yahweh is completely mad because of some of the bizarre things he asks his people to do!

The Jewish bible has all the credibility of Greek Mythology or the Aboriginal Dreamtime! If I told you that I worshiped the God Zeus and think Atlas holds up the world nobody would take me seriously. What about if I told you a giant snake called the rainbow serpent made all the rivers in Australia! People would think I am mad! And here you are IamJoseph seriously contemplating whether or not you and your Jewish cohorts are the “chosen people”

Mate give up flogging your dead horse!

IamJoseph, I don't give a damn about the so-called legitimacy of Israel's historical connection to that land or otherwise. I care more for practicalities, and on every practical measure the creation of Israel as a recognised modern state in that location was a mistake.

Largely due to the religious aspect of having such fundamentalist religious beliefs in such close proximity. I've visited the wailing wall and seen the golden dome of the dome-of-the-rock scarcely more than a stones throw away.

Simply put, when you add this layer of politics to sites of such religous importance you create problems, and it's why there will never be peace there.

I do agree that in the aftermath of the holocaust, some kind of refuge for the Jewish people was needed, but surely there were less volatile geographical areas that could have been considered. I realise the Jews wanted Israel, but they wanted it for these historical and religious reasons, which frankly, given the amount of carnage it has caused, wasn't worth giving to them. It disgusts me how religion becomes such a cog in the ongoing hatred there.

Iamjoseph...

It is interesting, isn't it. My dad is a Fundamentalist preacher so I know their beliefs. I am kind of out of the loop, not having been to church in years. As I grow older I have to admit that maybe the old man (older than me, and I am old) may be right.

One thing you miss, the Christians are split. The Liberals like the palestinians and the fundamentalists support Israel. They see in Israel the fullfillment of God's promise to his people. They also consider themselves apart from the rest of humanity, as are the jews. They see the end times and the restoration of Israel as a fullfillment of Prophecy when jews see the error of their ways. That will take some doing, I think. Anyway, I have sat through dozens of sermons on revelation, ezequiel, daniel, and so on.

All I know if the Dome of the Rock suddenly is destroyed and the Jews rebuild their Temple, watch out. It will get bad. The four horsemen will be visiting this planet.

I find it funny that liberals blame fundamentalists for wanting and doing supid things to bring on the apocalypse (donations, paying for jews to fly to Israel, breeding a red heifer, etc...). The people that are really working hard to make the prophesy come true are the Arabs and enemies of Israel. If they would make peace with the jews and live side by side in harmony then there would be no "end times" and the Bible would be a fairy tale.

Or maybe the Jews and Arab could kill each other and the rest of us could have peace.

EasyTimes, your statement about "proof" is stupid. Every heard of a science called archeology? It is when experts dig up artifacts of ancient peoples. And one last thing... if the jews want to be the "chosen people" that is fine with me. If we look at 2500 years of human history, being "the chosen" is a very dubious honor, unless you like massacres, persecution, expulsion, murders, etc... They can have it!

Kactuz

EasyTimes,

You wrote:

"...What about if I told you a giant snake called the rainbow serpent made all the rivers in Australia! People would think I am mad!"

LOL

Next you'll be telling me you don't believe an angel called Gibril "revealed" the koran verbatim to a seventh century Arabian warlord called Muhammad.

Watch it mate. This cavalier attitude towards "sacred" texts can land you in trouble.

stevenlmeyer
1. Your question is not very helpful!

The reality is that the Israel exists, with its nuclear bombes, millions of people in a tiny strip of land.

Palestinians are the victims from Israel's creation.

Israelis must understand the real conditions in their region and our planet and stop to follow the USA blindly, in their region or in our world.
They can not do what they did for long time, and they must do everything to become member from European Union.

I understand Israeli's interest to create their state in the their LOST LAND, their religious help them to keep their national ID in various coeners of our planet and under hard conditions, for thaousands of years.
UN have the duty to protect Israel, as they are its creators BUT THEY MUST PRESS IT TO RESPECT PALESTINIAN'S.

For me IT WAS BIG MISTAKE THE CREATION FROM THE UNIVERSE!
BUT IT HAPPENED!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

On almost every level a debate that references religion as justification for judging Israel's existance is as pointless as a notion of "my God is bigger than your God" particularly when one is the Christian God.
Having read all the posts so far it occurs to me that the argument is emotionally based and lacking in even Biblical or religious scolarship. A bit like year 8 students debating multi dimentional mathematical theory.

My more secular view is that as no one is ever born of a religion, (that comes later and relates primarilly indoctrination or choice and therefore optional) it is an unhelpful distraction in resolving the prosaic issue of land occupancy entitlement(Israel).

A discussion on any level than a secular one is pointless.

Bye

It is a pointless question, something which cannot be undone. It is no different to suggesting the France is a mistake (after all the French have been more belligerent toward its neighbours than any other nation).

So moving on from the pointless question we come closer to date.

During the 1967 war Israel was attacked from three side, South, North and East (the West being the Mediterranean)

These days we see a lot of Palestinians complain about their loss of land. That land was lost during the failed wars which they waged against Israel.

Spoils of war works both ways,

If you attack and prevail you end up the occupier and de-facto owner of the land.

That was the agenda for the 6 day war.

Fortunately/unfortunately (depending on whether Arab or Jew) the attack did not prevail and Israel actually occupied territory.

So the previous assumption to occupancy applies, the Palestinians and Egyptians, Syria and Jordan (with the help of others) , all of whom attacked Israel, lost lands including the west bank.

Now when you go to war you have to expect casualties. You must also expect to suffer should you lose.

The combined Arab nations lost the war and they lost land.

The Palestinians, having been kicked out of Jordan, continue terrorist activities across the world in pursuit of their petulant claims.

For decades they ran with Arafat, a particularly devious and deceitful politician.

Now they fight among themselves Hamas versus Fatah.

And you ask “Was Israel a mistake?”

Lets make it relevant, substitute “Palestine” for “Israel” and ask the same question again -

and the answer is “YES”

"Israelis must understand the real conditions in their region "

This is a lie-by-omission. Israel's rights are factual and historical - and mpre evidential than any other nation in Geo-history. The religion bit is generic to all peoples and a right of all people. You also omit that Islam & Christianity are the parties which ROBS lands and other peoples' religious heritage - based on religion.

"During the 1967 war Israel was attacked from three side"

Actually, a UN re-established state called Israel was attacked in '48 by a multi-state group of muslims, with a declared goal of genocide - even after the attacking states all voted in the UN Motion, and even when the lands now demanded was never theirs and in their hands when the attack was perpertrated. This constitutes the worst crime in the UN history - but still no Resolution against it. Why is that?

There was no such creature then as muslim palestinians - in fact they hated this name as they do Zionists today. But it was used as a policitcal tool by Arafat - and the Vatican and EU supoorted it. Even when this name was dumped on the Jews by Europe. If anyone wants to distort history and deflect to religion, then know this:

Both JC & Mohammed have harkened to the God of Israel - in abject shame of christians and muslims. Israel is returned - when this was least possible - when all nations slammed their doors shut to Jews fleeing Europe - when Jews met hordes with swords upon landing on their homeland - and while Europe's chimneys still fumed. Maybe Europe will invent Muslim Zionists, call a 4 state a 2-state for peace - and accuse the Zionists of Zionising Zion?

One day, you guys have to confront what you never thought would be asked of you: the real pollution stalking humanity is why no UN Resolution for the '48 act of intended genocide by Muslims - and why Europe hid under her bunkers instead of securing it. Analyse that.

Col Rouge

I did not intend to imply that Israel was the ONLY mistake made in the aftermath of WW2.

I would argue that putting the Northern Arabs, the Southern Christian / animists and the Darfuris all into one big country called Sudan was a monumental mistake.

Similarly resurrecting the Dutch East Indian Empire into what is in effect a Javanese Empire called Indonesia has resulted in terrible misery for the non-Javanese inhabitants of the archipelago.

Both Sudan and Indonesia appear to me to be cock-ups on scales that dwarf anything we see between Israel and the Arabs. If you doubt that speak to a Darfuri or West Papuan.

Jews were persecuted in Europe for centuries prior to the Holocaust. Jews were also persecuted in Arab lands but so were all kafirs.* However there is no question that the position of Jews in most soon to be independent Arab countries would have been unhappy. Ask any Egyptian Copt what it's like to be a kafir in the heart of Dar-ul-Islam.

So in 1945 a safe haven for Jews seemed an eminently reasonable idea. In 1945 carving a jewish state out of Germany would have seemed to most people like asking deer to settle down among a pride of lions.

In the period 1945-1950 ethnic cleansing was the order of the day. Millions of Germans were expelled from what had been East Prussia so that the whole of Poland could be moved Westwards. Millions of Muslims fled India for the nascent state of Pakistan while Hindus moved in the opposite direction.

The Arabs living in what was to become Israel were not even being asked to move. In fact there were relatively few Arabs living inside Israel's 1947 borders. Not none. But relatively few.

It is interesting to speculate what might have happened had the Arabs refrained from attacking in 1947.

However, let me rephrase the question:

GIVEN WHAT WE NOW KNOW, would JEWS have been better off if Israel had never existed?

*Spare me the currently politically correct version of Muslim history PLEASE!

" if the jews want to be the "chosen people"

That's a 1/2 sentence which ignores the juicy bits. Israel introduced Monotheism: she was chosen to be a light unto the nations by 'example' only - inducement or enforced conversion was forbidden: eggzactly the reverse of the NT & Quran. This is very different from the chosen of death-to-you if your an infidel, and your doomed to a hot place for a long time if you don't believe in the gospels. 99.9% of christians and muslims' ancesters were forced to convert by the sword and the rake.

You guys are angry becuase Israel was and is a light:

I can post more than a 1000 archeological proofs of the OT narratives – and you cannot post a single disputation of anything in the OT. Nor can you post any such proof of another scripture. That is the hated truth. The Tel Dan discovery proves King David and his psalms – and David is a mere 250 years from Moses, and the psalms contain numerous references to both Moses and the OT narratives. No scripture can match such scientific, historical vindication today.

The OT is the world’s first alphabetical books, introducing such scientific and historical premises as:

The universe is FINITE – it had a ‘BEGINNING’ [Genesis1/1].
ENTROPY [FORMLESS TO FORMED/Gen1/2]
LIGHT IS A PRIMODIAL ELEMENT.
MONOTHEISM.
DEMOCRASY [‘LET THE MAJORITY DECIDE’]
EVOLUTION [THE CHRONOLOGICAL EMERGENCE OF LIFE FORMS – FROM OCEAN, AIR, MAMMALS, LAND TO HUMAN]

THE 'SEED' FACTOR KO'S ToE.
THAT ALL LIFE BEGAN AS DUAL-GENDERED [‘Male & Female created he them’/Gen.]
THAT SPEECH ENDOWED HUMANS ARE LESS THAN 6000 YEARS OLD.

THE FIRST MENTION OF ABRAHAM, THE MOABITES, ANCIENT EGYPTIANS, CANAANITES, MEDIANITES – WITH AERIAL-MAPPING TOPOGRAPHY OF THIS REGION.
ALL THE LAWS FOLLOWED BY THE WORLD’S INSTITUTIONS [not a single world accepted law comes from another source: name one and prove me wrong?]

Surely you jest when you disregard the OT as ‘THE’ pivotal document of humanity! The problem is that the OT being right makes the multitude wrong. Truth has become a dangerous thing.

"GIVEN WHAT WE NOW KNOW, would JEWS have been better off if Israel had never existed?"

Lay off the Jewish Q for a mo. The crime was perpertrated by Europe - the Jewish homeland was destroyed for the noblest of reasons:

WHEN FREEDOM OF BELIEF - BECAME MIGHTY ROME'S GREATEST WAR.

1.1 Million Jews sacrificed their lives rather than worshipping the statue of Ceasar, as did all Europeans and pre-islamic arabs - thus they sirvived Rome. And as this occured under the noses of the emerging christian religion - they had the obligation to return the Jews - but they did the reverse: the followed up Rome's heresy decrees and murdered more humans than any other source in history. They persecited helpless exiled jews in Europe - while barring any possibility of their return.

The Nuremberg style trial must be of Europe - Jews are targteed only to illiminate the surviving witness for that prosecution. Briton carved out all the arab states illegally and immorally - for two reasons:

1. Antisemitism
2. 30 barrels of Oil.

Briton did evil even in India - to soothe her arab oil partners.

Truth is, the truth does not set European christianity free - and this is occuring w/o any Jewish input. Eurostan is happening - via the same weapon intended against Israel: Islamisation. Two king kongs boasting how they will destroy a mosquito - which is actually the only thing protecting them from each other.

Truth is - Islam is emulating medevial Europe - and there is none to take these two to task. I'd be dead scared if a real revelation/Messiah thing happened and if I was a christian or muslim. Truth is, Europe and the Arab peoples are saying they and their religions cannot survive if teeny weeny Israel exists! Europe needs a golf course erected on soccer-sized Israel, right? Israel is the reason the entire world is facing Islamist terror - from India to America to China, right? I hear you.

Getting born in this world is a mistake!

But once we do, we are associated with a body, and that body has a brainful of instincts which drive us crazy, and of particular interest to this thread is the survival instinct.

Retrospectively, yes, mistakes were made: Errare humano est.
Take for example the real case of a Jewish family in 1930's Germany that decided to spread the risk and send, while still possible, each of their children to a different country: USA, England, Poland, U.S.S.R,, France and Palestine. Some children survived, others did not. Of course they made mistakes, they could do better... if only they knew the future...

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
The Jews that settled in Palestine from 1888 on, had only good intentions, including towards their Arab neighbours. There were of course occassional misunderstandings - which is human, but no malice. Those Jews (most of them at least) were hoping to be best friends and include the Arab population in their family, but things started to change in 1929 when Arabs, suddenly and unprovoked, massacred Jews in Hebron and called to kill all Jews. Later on, the Arab Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini, allied with Hitler and spread riots against the Jews.

The Jewish survival instinct was working overtime, one event led to the next and before the Jews knew it, they had no chance of surival except by having their own state and a strong army, something they probably would not have contemplated otherwise.

Creating the state of Israel was a mistake only to the extent that being born is. Once born to the given circumstances, including the absence of prophets, the survival instincts made the state of Israel inevitable.

Anyone contemplating a middle-east solution must take into account this powerful survival-instinct. Sadly today, that mad Mufti's ideas prevail among Arabs: Jews will never be tricked into anything wishy-washy that doesn't ensure their survival.

If "Israel" was a mistake then every settled/conquered country today also is.

That...is the 'secular' (Examinator) way of looking at it.

RELIGOUS VIEW is pretty much that God has a purpose for restoring Israel to the land promised to Abaham...but if one tries to understand modern Israel in terms of the Abahamic and Mosaic covenant (Read Deuteronomy) one would have to assert that the current spiritual condition of most Israelies merits their 'exile' just as it did on Jeremiah's day.
The New Testament alludes to the return/restoration of the Jews to the land.. Ezekiel speaks of a re-building of the race and the land, which culminates in a restored temple.

make of it what you will.

SECULAR VIEW.. it seems to me that in absense of a religious understanding of the place and it's history, the only way for Israel to understand itself..and for others also, is in terms of power balance.. most countries which delcare indepenance do so on the basis of some kind of power base..then, when they appear viable.. are recognized and trade goes on.
There can be no moral judgement on the Israelies from a secular perspective.. as atheistic secularism does not recognize any foundation for morality other than power.
The dubious 'Human Rights' convention is just a piece of paper which depends for it's validity on being recognized by states..which in turn are based on power.

Have fun with this one :)

IamJoseph

YOU MISUNDERSTAND ME!
When I wrote "Israelis must understand the real conditions in their region " I mean the current conditions in the region and NOT IN THE STONE AGE.

1. The USA are in decline and they have to solve many basic internal problems, 49% of taxpayers money go to wars or former wars.
2. The oil soon will finish and the region will lose its strategic value.

3. The region is passing to European Union, remember the meeting in Parish from all Mediterannean countries, including Israel and Syria, for the Mediteranean Union. European governments are more neutral than USA and they want from Israel to respect Palestinians rights and try for a permanent solution with Palestinians and other Arab countries.

4. Arab despotic, non democratic regims will lose the support from USA and will have huge political problems. I believe the there hardline islamists will replace them, as they are the only organizations which resist to the carrent unpopular regimes.

5. The world want a solution to the conflict and Israel's behave to Palestinians, non only sparks a hate for it in the Arab and Muslim world but we have an increase of antiJews activities in west countries too. We know that in Europe we had more attacks again Jews last years than against Muslims!

6. Israelis can not continue the militarisation of their life for long time and they want peace,security and prosperity.
Combine all them and many others and you will find that the delay of the solusion is against Israel's interests.

IT IS TIME FOR PROGRESIVE ISRAELIS TO FIGHT FOR A PERMANENT SOLUTION WITH PALESTINIANS. I AM ATHEIST, I DO NOT CARE VERY MUCH FOR RELIGIOUS.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

"The New Testament alludes to the return/restoration of the Jews to the land"

Respectfully, this appears a defunct view. Israel's destiny could not depend on the NT or Quran charges - else she would long ago cease to exist. Consider that statement again - it uses the term 'alludes' quoting the NT, but the OT makes a non-negotiable, definitive prophesy, and does so 1500 years prior to the NT. Terms such as 'alluides' and the 'NT' become irrelevent here. In fact, the most vindicated prophesy in all writ and scripture is the return of Israel, constituting the greatest miracle the last 2000 years.

In contrast, it appears nothing from the NT & Quran can be taken seriously. How can two documents, perporting as revelationary writs, be in utter contradiction of each? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Quran alternatively condones 50% of the NT's core doctrine - namely immaculate birth, then goes on to reject its other 50% which the NT totally depends on - namely the resurrection. Here we see that the Islamic charge of the OT being distorted, is better understood when we examine the fatal contradiction of what the Quran does to the NT.

Other contradictions in history and dates also prevail between these two documents, despite that these scriptures emerged when writings and cross-nation evidences were common place. This says that these two docs cannot make any coherence when they contradict anything in the OT - because they first and foremost contradict each other. Conclusion: both cannot be right - both can be wrong.

But instead of confronting, sorting out and making some sense of each other, both the NT & Quran followers deflect at the Jews, Israel, Zionism and the OT. Clearly, it appears the Jews were 100% right: they become bad/wrong whichever way they turned, and equally they become bad/wrong if they just stayed neutral. The drama humanity faces is the enormous disatser which hovers for over 4 Billion sincerely believing humans - and one which is never confronted by virtue of deflection. Here, being right becomes very dangerous.

The truth wins in the end, and the mistakes are elsewhere.

Top Ten Ideas Changing The World

May 1st 2008 Time Magazine.

Time has made a list of the top ten ideas that are currently changing the world, for religion to be among this list is unbelievable.

Number Ten on this list: '' The Re-Judaizing of Jesus''

So many Millions of Christians are learning the truth about what happened in the first 100 years of Christianity that they are making a move back to Judaism, Back to the roots of Judaism that the first church was a part of, that it's actually changing the world.

So many Christians are learning how and when the church started becoming anti-semitic imo.

So many of Christians are having to admit that the first church had tens of thousands of Jewish believers who were all Pro-Jew,Pro-Israel and zealous for the law of Moses.

We are learning that the first converts celebrated and observed all the Jewish feasts, And so many made pilgrimages to Jerusalem for these Holy feast.

There are so many Christians abandoning Christmas, and Easter upon finding the origins of these Holidays.

So many are going back to the biblical feasts that it's changing the world and how we all view the nation of Israel.

So many Christians are giving their support to the Jews of Israel that it's making a big enough difference to change the world and to be added to the top ten ideas changing the world.

There is a new sherrif in town, and he's Jewish.

Never before in History have so many returned to the truth.

Aren't you ready?

Ten men will grasp ahold of a Jew and say, ''We have heard that God is with you, let us be called by your name''

What a great day it is when Time Magazine recognizes what is going on.

In a time when so many are calling for the destruction of Israel, The world is doing a turnaround and are now in support of Israel, standing with the Jews, come what may.
http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=688441

"1. The USA are in decline"

Compared to? America rebuffed her kin in medevial Europe, and came up with what is the greatest man-made, non-theological treatise for nations and humanity: The Am. Constitution. This gave many groups a refuge to function and emerge on their deeds - while medevial Europe suffocated humanity. Mostly, there is a jealousy presented as a hatred of America - because she overturns many wrong paradigms currently hiding behind religion, as apposed good laws and equality.

"5. The world want a solution to the conflict and Israel's behave to Palestinians"

This is an inadvertant and inculcated lie. The reverse is the case: the Arab muslims do NOT want a solution, but proclaim death to Israel. This is known by all christians in Europe. The Arabs demand what they don't need and what tiny Israel does not have: LAND. They invented the term Palestinians as a political tool, and call a deathly 3-state as a 2-state: a horrific lie condoned by Europe. Fact is, Israel is now encompassing 12% of the land originally allocated her in the Balfour. The creation of Jordan was a great attrocity, and if anything half of the 120 year Arab states should be shut off and handed to the Kurds, Coptics, Drews and others.

The Islamist sectors are demanding and planning new states in Kashmir [even after India gave them two states], China, and Europe - with the doctrine of converting these to Islamic states and forbidding any other religious groups: Islamists are emulating medevial Europe, boasting Europe's blood libels and The Protocols - and Europe is silent of these terrible lies invented by Europe.

IMHO< once the blackmail of oil is overcome, many nations, especially from Asia, will cause a great shift in the world's paradogms, and a NWO will emerge. This will negate many of today's paradigms.

ASymeonakis “The USA are in decline and they have to solve many basic internal problems, 49% of taxpayers money go to wars or former wars.”

I am not sure what tea leaves you are reading but I think you will find the good ole USA has some bite in it still.

As to “49% taxpayers money go to wars or former wars”

I went to wikipedia, for a quick response and found

“The United States spends 3.7% of its GDP on its military,”

Somehow I figure US government taxes and spends is more than 7.4% of GDP (=3.7% divided by your 49% )

Likewise

“the US outlays for defense as a percentage of federal discretionary spending, has from Fiscal Year 2003 consumed more than half (50.5%) of all such funding and has risen steadily. Discretionary spending accounts for approximately 1/3 of all federal outlays”

If defense = half of discretionary federal spending and discretionary spending equals 1/3 of all government spending, it would be reasonable to assume defense consumed 1/6 (17%) of all government spending.

Now wiki might not be the best source and I could go look some more but it certainly sounds truer than your claim.

Focus on Europe. “The region is passing to European Union”

Hardly. The EU has enough problems, they like to play statesmanship but at the end of the day Fortress Europe is in a hell of a mess after decades of stupid EU economics. They are in no position to lead the world anywhere

“I believe the there hardline islamists will replace them”
then you better pray USA remains the strongest power, Europe does not have the will to fight, the old Eastern Block is a rust bucket and China has more problems than it knows what to do with.
Apart from those four, there is no one else.

“The world want a solution to the conflict and Israel's behave to Palestinians,”

Actually the Palestinians have messed that up, the world does not give a rats anymore for Palestinians, they are a failed state, a bunch of terrorists, an international pariah

“I believe the there hardline islamists will replace them”
then you better pray USA remains the strongest power

Absolutely well said. Europe has not done well by the Arab muslim block, even as it supports them to the hilt no matter what the issue. The result is the fostering of un-democratic regimes - which has caused the Arab peoples great losses and stymied their progress.

Europe should have been in the forefront of promoting equality, democrasy and reciprocity from Arabian states; Europe also has an onus to correct historical falsehoods fed the Arab peoples, by Regime appointed clerics and media; Europe has prime responsibility to cleanse its historical mildew parading the Arab world, such as blood libels, The Protocols, etc - these are European falsehoods which have already costed 100s of 1000s of lives.

Today, Europe has more mosques than churches emerging - this is fine, but why not promote equal attitudes so churches would be allowed in Arab states - or cease the mosques in Europe? America, while also interacting with the Middle-east, does voice her disatisfaction of certain negative paradigms in Arabia - while Europe is either silent or in active promotion of it. This is hardly good for the peoples of the Regime states established by Briton.

The world should be thankful for and to America. There's no one else out there worthy. America is a microcosm of all peoples, and her Constitution is a majestic treatise.

Col Rouge
The U.S. Government says that military spending amounts to 20% of the budget,
The Center for Defense Information (CDI) reports 51%,
the Friends Committee on National Legislation (FCNL) reports 43%, and
The War Resisters League claims 54%.
You can visit the web sites of the CDI, FCNL or The War Resisters League for more details.
"then you better pray USA remains the strongest power:
NO USA CREATES MORE PROBLEMS THAN SOLVE!
I agree with you about China and Eastern block BUT I DISAGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THE EUROPEAN UNION.
Do not underestimate EU, it is our only hope! I would like to see Australia as full member from the EU if we want to avoid the huge risks from China.
Do not worry, EU PROMOTE ITS INTERESTS WITH THE SMART WAY!
MAY BE YOU THINK THEY ARE WEAK, IN REALLY THEY ARE VERY EXPERIENCE AND KNOWS HOW TO MAXIMIZE THE BENEFITS WITH THE MINIMUM POSIBLE COST.
IamJoseph
"Europe has not done well ...The result is the fostering of un-democratic regimes",
Are you joking? USA is fostering non democratic regimes, not European Union. EU is top on human rights, environment protection, democracy, support to poor countries, respect to international criminal court, full cooperation with Amnesty international etc.
WHEN YOU SPEAK FOR FOR EU WE MUST BE MORE CAREFULL BECAUSE REALLY EU IS OUR ONLY HOPE!
ISRAELIS MUST UNDERSTAND THAT ONLY EU CAN BRING PEACE AND PROSPERITY IN THEIR REGION.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide