On almost every level a debate that references religion as justification for judging Israel's existance is as pointless as a notion of "my God is bigger than your God" particularly when one is the Christian God.
Having read all the posts so far it occurs to me that the argument is emotionally based and lacking in even Biblical or religious scolarship. A bit like year 8 students debating multi dimentional mathematical theory.

My more secular view is that as no one is ever born of a religion, (that comes later and relates primarilly indoctrination or choice and therefore optional) it is an unhelpful distraction in resolving the prosaic issue of land occupancy entitlement(Israel).

A discussion on any level than a secular one is pointless.

Bye

It is a pointless question, something which cannot be undone. It is no different to suggesting the France is a mistake (after all the French have been more belligerent toward its neighbours than any other nation).

So moving on from the pointless question we come closer to date.

During the 1967 war Israel was attacked from three side, South, North and East (the West being the Mediterranean)

These days we see a lot of Palestinians complain about their loss of land. That land was lost during the failed wars which they waged against Israel.

Spoils of war works both ways,

If you attack and prevail you end up the occupier and de-facto owner of the land.

That was the agenda for the 6 day war.

Fortunately/unfortunately (depending on whether Arab or Jew) the attack did not prevail and Israel actually occupied territory.

So the previous assumption to occupancy applies, the Palestinians and Egyptians, Syria and Jordan (with the help of others) , all of whom attacked Israel, lost lands including the west bank.

Now when you go to war you have to expect casualties. You must also expect to suffer should you lose.

The combined Arab nations lost the war and they lost land.

The Palestinians, having been kicked out of Jordan, continue terrorist activities across the world in pursuit of their petulant claims.

For decades they ran with Arafat, a particularly devious and deceitful politician.

Now they fight among themselves Hamas versus Fatah.

And you ask “Was Israel a mistake?”

Lets make it relevant, substitute “Palestine” for “Israel” and ask the same question again -

and the answer is “YES”

"Israelis must understand the real conditions in their region "

This is a lie-by-omission. Israel's rights are factual and historical - and mpre evidential than any other nation in Geo-history. The religion bit is generic to all peoples and a right of all people. You also omit that Islam & Christianity are the parties which ROBS lands and other peoples' religious heritage - based on religion.

"During the 1967 war Israel was attacked from three side"

Actually, a UN re-established state called Israel was attacked in '48 by a multi-state group of muslims, with a declared goal of genocide - even after the attacking states all voted in the UN Motion, and even when the lands now demanded was never theirs and in their hands when the attack was perpertrated. This constitutes the worst crime in the UN history - but still no Resolution against it. Why is that?

There was no such creature then as muslim palestinians - in fact they hated this name as they do Zionists today. But it was used as a policitcal tool by Arafat - and the Vatican and EU supoorted it. Even when this name was dumped on the Jews by Europe. If anyone wants to distort history and deflect to religion, then know this:

Both JC & Mohammed have harkened to the God of Israel - in abject shame of christians and muslims. Israel is returned - when this was least possible - when all nations slammed their doors shut to Jews fleeing Europe - when Jews met hordes with swords upon landing on their homeland - and while Europe's chimneys still fumed. Maybe Europe will invent Muslim Zionists, call a 4 state a 2-state for peace - and accuse the Zionists of Zionising Zion?

One day, you guys have to confront what you never thought would be asked of you: the real pollution stalking humanity is why no UN Resolution for the '48 act of intended genocide by Muslims - and why Europe hid under her bunkers instead of securing it. Analyse that.

Col Rouge

I did not intend to imply that Israel was the ONLY mistake made in the aftermath of WW2.

I would argue that putting the Northern Arabs, the Southern Christian / animists and the Darfuris all into one big country called Sudan was a monumental mistake.

Similarly resurrecting the Dutch East Indian Empire into what is in effect a Javanese Empire called Indonesia has resulted in terrible misery for the non-Javanese inhabitants of the archipelago.

Both Sudan and Indonesia appear to me to be cock-ups on scales that dwarf anything we see between Israel and the Arabs. If you doubt that speak to a Darfuri or West Papuan.

Jews were persecuted in Europe for centuries prior to the Holocaust. Jews were also persecuted in Arab lands but so were all kafirs.* However there is no question that the position of Jews in most soon to be independent Arab countries would have been unhappy. Ask any Egyptian Copt what it's like to be a kafir in the heart of Dar-ul-Islam.

So in 1945 a safe haven for Jews seemed an eminently reasonable idea. In 1945 carving a jewish state out of Germany would have seemed to most people like asking deer to settle down among a pride of lions.

In the period 1945-1950 ethnic cleansing was the order of the day. Millions of Germans were expelled from what had been East Prussia so that the whole of Poland could be moved Westwards. Millions of Muslims fled India for the nascent state of Pakistan while Hindus moved in the opposite direction.

The Arabs living in what was to become Israel were not even being asked to move. In fact there were relatively few Arabs living inside Israel's 1947 borders. Not none. But relatively few.

It is interesting to speculate what might have happened had the Arabs refrained from attacking in 1947.

However, let me rephrase the question:

GIVEN WHAT WE NOW KNOW, would JEWS have been better off if Israel had never existed?

*Spare me the currently politically correct version of Muslim history PLEASE!

" if the jews want to be the "chosen people"

That's a 1/2 sentence which ignores the juicy bits. Israel introduced Monotheism: she was chosen to be a light unto the nations by 'example' only - inducement or enforced conversion was forbidden: eggzactly the reverse of the NT & Quran. This is very different from the chosen of death-to-you if your an infidel, and your doomed to a hot place for a long time if you don't believe in the gospels. 99.9% of christians and muslims' ancesters were forced to convert by the sword and the rake.

You guys are angry becuase Israel was and is a light:

I can post more than a 1000 archeological proofs of the OT narratives – and you cannot post a single disputation of anything in the OT. Nor can you post any such proof of another scripture. That is the hated truth. The Tel Dan discovery proves King David and his psalms – and David is a mere 250 years from Moses, and the psalms contain numerous references to both Moses and the OT narratives. No scripture can match such scientific, historical vindication today.

The OT is the world’s first alphabetical books, introducing such scientific and historical premises as:

The universe is FINITE – it had a ‘BEGINNING’ [Genesis1/1].
ENTROPY [FORMLESS TO FORMED/Gen1/2]
LIGHT IS A PRIMODIAL ELEMENT.
MONOTHEISM.
DEMOCRASY [‘LET THE MAJORITY DECIDE’]
EVOLUTION [THE CHRONOLOGICAL EMERGENCE OF LIFE FORMS – FROM OCEAN, AIR, MAMMALS, LAND TO HUMAN]

THE 'SEED' FACTOR KO'S ToE.
THAT ALL LIFE BEGAN AS DUAL-GENDERED [‘Male & Female created he them’/Gen.]
THAT SPEECH ENDOWED HUMANS ARE LESS THAN 6000 YEARS OLD.

THE FIRST MENTION OF ABRAHAM, THE MOABITES, ANCIENT EGYPTIANS, CANAANITES, MEDIANITES – WITH AERIAL-MAPPING TOPOGRAPHY OF THIS REGION.
ALL THE LAWS FOLLOWED BY THE WORLD’S INSTITUTIONS [not a single world accepted law comes from another source: name one and prove me wrong?]

Surely you jest when you disregard the OT as ‘THE’ pivotal document of humanity! The problem is that the OT being right makes the multitude wrong. Truth has become a dangerous thing.

"GIVEN WHAT WE NOW KNOW, would JEWS have been better off if Israel had never existed?"

Lay off the Jewish Q for a mo. The crime was perpertrated by Europe - the Jewish homeland was destroyed for the noblest of reasons:

WHEN FREEDOM OF BELIEF - BECAME MIGHTY ROME'S GREATEST WAR.

1.1 Million Jews sacrificed their lives rather than worshipping the statue of Ceasar, as did all Europeans and pre-islamic arabs - thus they sirvived Rome. And as this occured under the noses of the emerging christian religion - they had the obligation to return the Jews - but they did the reverse: the followed up Rome's heresy decrees and murdered more humans than any other source in history. They persecited helpless exiled jews in Europe - while barring any possibility of their return.

The Nuremberg style trial must be of Europe - Jews are targteed only to illiminate the surviving witness for that prosecution. Briton carved out all the arab states illegally and immorally - for two reasons:

1. Antisemitism
2. 30 barrels of Oil.

Briton did evil even in India - to soothe her arab oil partners.

Truth is, the truth does not set European christianity free - and this is occuring w/o any Jewish input. Eurostan is happening - via the same weapon intended against Israel: Islamisation. Two king kongs boasting how they will destroy a mosquito - which is actually the only thing protecting them from each other.

Truth is - Islam is emulating medevial Europe - and there is none to take these two to task. I'd be dead scared if a real revelation/Messiah thing happened and if I was a christian or muslim. Truth is, Europe and the Arab peoples are saying they and their religions cannot survive if teeny weeny Israel exists! Europe needs a golf course erected on soccer-sized Israel, right? Israel is the reason the entire world is facing Islamist terror - from India to America to China, right? I hear you.