Scout,
Obviously you overlooked a very important word "example". It was merely an example on how I think as a religious person about social environment. I did not state it as an absolute of all people who call themselves Christian, however the Christians I mix amongst view town planning the same as myself.

Society is about living in community, not merely economics. Jesus emphasised the concept of less complex communities and its spiritual values over placing the evils of mammon [economics] as the goal of living. Complex high rise cities increases the spread of human diseses, immorality, human disfunction and crime.

Politics means how a society is governed by the values dominant in the society. That people of faith must be denied their view of how society is governed is not democracy but borders on totalitarianism. Where the will of atheists are imposed upon people of faith as in Russia, China etc.

Obviously you believe in evolution is the ultimate answer to the human condition so you desire your views be imposed on society. I ask how many children have you to contribute to the future evolutionary programme. If your answer is none then obviously you are not a link in the programme of evolution. So you ought not put too much faith in evolution as the answer.

Philo

Obviously if you use an "example" it needs to have a basis in fact. Obviously now that your spurious claims have been found out you are trying to wriggle out of your blanket claims about secularists.

And you don't stop there. Now you are putting words into my mouth. I don't believe that economics will solve everything. As a matter of fact I believe in community effort which is why I am currently engaged in a grass roots level campaign seeking humane conditions for animals.

Community is another reason why I live where I do. We are a very cohesive group in the Dandenong ranges - there is a wide mix of people from christians through to pagans and athiests like myself. I know I can trust any of my neighbours - they too reflect the mix of beliefs. We help each other. We don't preach or judge. Something for you to reflect upon, Philo.

At present it is christianity that has become dominant in our political system. Clearly, you are both happy and complacent about this inequitable imbalance.

I posit that you would not be so lackadaisical about this situation if Tony Abbott's name was Mohamed Abdul and his policies reflected sharia law. I imagine that you would be most upset that an Australian government had a preference for islamic beliefs.

This is why separation of church and state is absolutely vital. A democracy doesn't function for a particular religious ideology - a democracy is for all the people.

So I see you uphold only atheists have a right to democratic decisions. Get real! Democracy must represent all views otherwise it is totalitarian.

You continually despise Tony Abbott but obviously people are not influenced by your opinion and continue to support him. You have a right to express an opinion but not a right to impose your views on how we are governed if your view does not represent the majority of people.

The seperation of Church and state has nothing to do with keeping religious views out of politics it has to do with keeping the Government out of promoting a religion. That is Government cannot promote or enforce any particular religion upon the people. Read the constitution.

We have freedom of expression of ideas under our constution and that also applies in Government. Of course you only support left wing atheists and the PC brigade as worthy politicians. I will continue to oppose Governments who impose laws I disagree with; that is the nature of democracy. If Tony Abbott's arguments are believed in the Chamber over his opponents that is democracy at work. When ideas are restricted that is totalitarian.

On Saturday, an article in The Weekend Australian (2-3/9/06, p 21) revealed
the embarrassment of the Australian Democrats, whose online survey on "God
and Government" resulted in 40,000 responses, overwhelmingly "pro-church".

The article said a normal response to such surveys is just 1000.

However I'm not expecting the "God and Government" survey results to be
trumpeted on the Democrats website any time soon!

Will you STOP making assumptions about what I believe! You do not know me at all! MR JUDGEMENTAL PHILO.

I mean stating things like: "So I see you uphold only atheists have a right to democratic decisions."

NO I DON'T

Do you know what a democracy is?

I don't think you do.

At present we have an imbalance of extreme right wing christians governing for all.

BTW I don't always disagree with Tony Abbott - he has made some decisions I agree with such as the recent release of the cancer treatment. It is when his religious beliefs interfere with medical treatment for people - such as RU486, that I and many other people, including christians take issue.

Philo not all christians agree with you. Many Australians identify with christianity - that doesn't mean that they want literalist interpretations of the bible as government policy. For example (a real example) we don't do 'the eye for an eye' barbarity anymore. Many christians are pro-choice. Many christians believe that locking up refugees is cruel. Many christians hold completely different views to you Philo.

As I stated, you are happy to go along with people like Abbott because they espouse the same extreme conservative views as you.

I agree that limiting ideas is very regressive - this is why I try to learn from ALL ideologies rather than just limiting myself to a narrow perspective on just one. I look for the good in all.

Finally you have failed to respond to my point that if Abbott was Abdul you would be shrieking from the highest hill that religion had crept into politics.

Tax payers

I cant belive I am saying this but for once I agree with Yabby.

Mind you I still dont reckon its a blokes topic but what the hell.
Found all the old Cross Dressers again. Hows it going Philo.

We have a right to know their funds are being hanled in a fair manner. I dont think employing 30 Church groups to assist women in a difficult time is doing that.

We all know Churches push their own agenda. What about employing 15 Church groups and 15 athiests.?

Surley thats fair.

.

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/17809.htm

David (Boaz)
You do seem to have a bee in your bonnet about 'Oil money being used to promote Islamic culture'.
I can only assume you ride a bicycle and refuse to contribute to their funding.
I am constantly amused to see George, Johnnie and friends rattling on about the Islamic terrorists while they refuse to reign in their nations' addiction to Arabic oil.

On the other hand they are quite happy to pour billions of dollars into the Israeli economy, fly in heavy weapons, fighter plans, tanks and cluster bombs.
Seems like they are having a bob each way, supporting both sides of the Middle Eastern fratricide.

David, just be thankful that the immigrants to Australia came in quietly and unarmed.
Your mates of Anglo/Celtic history usually arrived with swords slashing and coffers open, ready to grab anything that sparkled.
Ask the Indians, on both the sub continent and the Americas, ask the Africans, the Arabs and the Chinese about the Anglo/Celtic respect for other's culture.

Of course we are still at it.

The only reason the West is rich and strong is that we are plundering the natural and mineral resources of poorer, weaker countries.

We control them with crippling debt backed by naked aggression. Our mega corporations corrupt their rulers, sell them military toys, 'development schemes and private luxury. In return we ask their hungry citizens to grow cash crops for us.

There is no high moral ground from which we can preach David.

What we can do is pull back the curtain of hypocrisy created by our corporate leaders, their puppet governments, hired media moguls and religious propogandists.

This is no black armband view of history. It is a clear statement of the sorry mess the human race is in. Our rulers tell us we are free, and we are. Free to starve on the streets if we don’t have a tidy inheritance, sell our soul to the corporations or run on the treadmill of credit card slavery.

I hope you can eat your jingoism. Very soon it may be all we have left.