Hi all

Dickie and Boaz_David, I'm a little mystified by the graphics there too, I must admit. Dramatic licence, perhaps?

Much as it pains me to have to repeat myself in the case of Yabby's pathetic questions, here is what is wrong with Cameron Morse's assessment of the live export industry:

1. Morse is a journo who writes for a farming journal. Is he going to tell farmers anything they may not want to hear?

2. Why did he not go on, say the "Bader III", "Al Kuwait" or the "Torrens" (previously known as the "Farid F" and detained in Australian ports at least six times because it is falling to bits)

3. The woeful imbalance of "competent" crew in relation to the number of animals the "super-carrier" "Becrux" carries

4. The scant detail provided about what happened to the animals once they were off-loaded from the "Becrux" (a couple of paragraphs was all I could find).

I'm sure he had a happy, leisurely cruise at the exporters expense, and they went to great lengths to ensure that he only saw what they wanted him to see. Anything else he saw by mistake he didn't bother telling us about.

Yabby, answer this for us. On THAT voyage of the "Maysora" (November 2006) when they loaded all the Southern bred cattle in clear violation of their OWN standards, 450-odd died. It was identified that the ship had nowhere near sufficient captive bolts to deal with the dying animals. Is this common practice? Likewise THAT voyage of the "Al Messilah" in February 2006.

How is it that Animals Australia has been able to film what they have, on FIVE separate investigations, in multiple countries, if it's as good as you say it is?

Nicky

Ok Nicky, so you can't pinpoint a single "fairytale", as you claimed.
A number of journalists have now travelled on ships, all reporting
similar trips, including a journalist from the ABC.

*Morse is a journo who writes for a farming journal. Is he going to tell farmers anything they may not want to hear?*

So bankers can't write about banking? Psychologists can't write
about psychology? If any one has a vested interested here, it
is you and Dickie, as you both admit to being on a crusade to
stop the live trade at any cost, using the media as your weapon.

Even if those sheep went on the Queen Mary, as you said, that would
still not be good enough for you. So your thread is not even
about regulations, but about an ongoing effort to keep the topic
in the limelight and try and force the Govt to follow your agenda.

The ratio of "competent crew" not being correct, is simply
your unqualified opinion. You are not a vet, you hardly know much
about sheep. You don't know the crew and have never been on
the boat. All we know about you is that you are a vegan animal
liberation crusader, who supports Peta, Animal Liberation etc,
who doesent even think we should be farming livestock. That
does not qualify you to judge the crew on a boat. Every boat
has a vet on board, plus trained stockmen

Hi all

Come off it, Yabby, we all know what this is about. Cameron Morse had a nice trip on the only live export ship journos are allowed anywhere near because the others are so bad, and said all the things he was supposed to say. We all know how good the regulations are, even before the animals leave this country. We all know that a couple of dozen people, even if one or two of them is any good, cannot possibly adequately care for 100,000 or so animals, and certainly nor can one veterinarian.

We know that AQIS reports are based on Captain's reports, in whose interest it clearly is to say what they are supposed to say, and likewise the veterinarian and stockmen if they want to keep their jobs. We know that the crews are from third world countries where the welfare of animals is a seriously low priority.

You once said that it is in the interests of the exporter for the sheep not to die. On that last voyage from Tasmania on the "Al Messilah" (28 year old converted car carrier), it was anticipated that more than the 1600 or so would die, so they didn't even bother putting enough feed on the ship (read the AQIS report), and that's one of the reasons why so many starved.

Then we know what happens to the animals when they get there, and are way beyond the reach of even these meaningless regulations, we have seen enough evidence. Time to give up trying to defend the indefensible. I'm afraid, our evidence stacks up far better than yours (or Wellards, or MLA's...)

Nicky

What we know Nicky, is that you will use any old excuse to try and rubbish the
live trade, due to your crusade of using the media to try and shut it down.

So what if a ship is 28 years old? The QE2, a passenger liner, did nearly
40 years of service!

You still cannot point out a single fairytale in those articles. Other journalists
have reported much as Morse did. They are far less biased then you are and are
running no campaigns as you are. Much more likely they are simply writing
what they find and due to your crusade, you of course would never admit that.
You have a clear agenda, those journalists don’t.

You have no idea how many people it takes to look after sheep on a boat,
as you have never looked after sheep on a boat and as far as I know, have
never even worked with sheep in a set of sheepyards. I remind you that plenty
of farmers run 10’000 sheep or more per labour unit.

Yes, it is in the shippers interests to have sheep arrive alive and in good
condition, for the economic loss of losing large numbers of sheep, can
be huge.

What we have however, in every field of human endevour,is something called
bad judgement. It happens all the time and because of it, American investment banks
crash, presidents start wars, planes crash, ships sink, you name it, it happens.

Check out any company employing people, you will see bad judgement happening
regularly. Live shippers are no different to the others. A great deal of what AQIS
does with its systems and audits, be it in fish processing or any other field that they
work in, is to have things in place, so that they are kept to a minimum. They are
not traffic cops.

What your evidence does is to take isolated incidents and try and run them for all
they are worth, to achieve your goal of shutting down the trade, using the media.

It has little to do with objectivity, everything to-do-with propaganda.

Hi all

Yabby, Morse's whole series of articles are fairytales. Be serious, he is a farming journo (as I bet all the others were, can you provide links to those stories?), who went on the only half decent ship these hapless animals are forced upon, and painted a pretty picture of how lovely it all is. Your statement about farmers running "10,000 sheep per labour unit" only bears out my earlier comment that you people want to have more animals than you can properly look after (that's why so many die in paddocks, as reported, one presumes).

And there are SO MANY isolated instances of "bad judgment"(not breaching the ALES to save a quid, of course). And SO MUCH clear evidence of what happens to these animals in importing countries which are signatories to totally meaningless agreements. You are an armchair commentator, because YOU have never been on one of these voyages, nor have you seen the handling and slaughter practices in the Middle East first hand.

You just take MLA's glossy propaganda as gospel and preach relentlessly from it (as you accuse us of doing in reverse), and when you are caught out, throw in a series of distractors to get yourself out of the proverbial.

Nicky

*Morse's whole series of articles are fairytales.*

Nicky, you repeat the same dogma over and over and yet you can't
so far point to a single fact in the articles, which is a fairytale.

Just repeating yourself over and over, does not make your claim
true.

I remind you that Siba ships are setting new benchmarks in the industry
and have two shiny, brand new ships, being built right now.
Yes, there were some old kites, but things are changing, that is the
point. Alot of boats had to have a major refit, to meet the new
standards. Others were sold and landed up on the Brazil trade, where
nobody sets any standards, unlike Australia.

*you people want to have more animals than you can properly look after*

You have no experience with sheep, so have no idea about how many
people it takes to look after which number of sheep. Qualified vets
can make that judgement, or people with years of livestock experience,
not vegan, animal liberation protesters such as yourself.

I remind you that staff don't bemother them, simply treat any that
could be sick. If you read the articles, you'll find they spend
half their time cleaning water troughs, which might not even need
that much cleaning.

Yes, sheeps legs are tied in the ME, the same happens in Australia.
Yes some sheeps throats are cut in the ME, the same as in Australia.
People all through country Australia knock off sheep every day and
they don't own stun guns.