The live export industry claims to have the highest standards in the world. Let's see how that stacks up.

Animals Angels frequently attends loadings in Fremantle. They state that there are routinely no government inspectors present at the wharf to deal with mismanagement, ill and injured animals, and cruelty. On Sunday 01.06.2008, they have to call an AQIS inspector. Likewise on 03.04.2008, 25.03.2008, and the 21.12.2007, when they actually have to call AQIS. AQIS arrives but does no inspections.

A review of the AQIS mortality reports that Animals Australia was able to obtain indicates that in almost all cases, the animals are not given the mandated periods in "registered premises" (feedlots) to accustom them to pelletized fodder. November 2006 on the "Maysora", 450 cattle died either on the ship or on arrival in Tzofar; these cattle were southern bred cattle loaded in contravention of the ASEL. Heat exhaustion, pneumonia, septicaemia. On a voyage from Tasmania in 2006, ill and injured sheep were loaded, the animals only had a matter of hours in the feedlot and there was not enough feed on the ship for the journey. 1,632 died.

The industry then would have us believe that it can influence the way animals are treated in importing countries. Please visit the link below (thanks, Dickie) to see how successful they are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1_BOAF7qvk

Further information attesting to this filmed by Animals Australia is at its Live Export Indefensible website. Now the Australian government (Rudd, the man who "cannot abide cruelty") is resuming the trade in cattle to Egypt.

these countries are signatories to (minimal) OIE (International Organization for Animal Health) animal welfare standards. You be the judge of their compliance. No MoU Australia has with any of these countries is legally enforceable, and they only provide for the animals to be offloaded from the ships anyway.

Please remember also that it is YOUR tax dollars that are helping to prop up this industry that is founded on the most appalling cruelty to farm animals that the human race is ever likely to be held to account for.

AQIS would be well aware, that there are a bunch of fanatical
vegans, doing what they can not just to end the trade, but to
end livestock farming, just like Nicky and Dickie.

Propaganda and "cause based marketing" is all part of their
little game. Shocking people, is their aim.

A more objective study was done by a rural journalist, who
actually eats meat. Here is a URL with the links to the
stories he wrote about his trip on a boat. Every boat has
an Australian vet on board.

http://www.wellardgroup.com.au/media_centre/media_releases.phtml

I have yet to see a report written by a bunch of vegans, that
is any way objective.

As soon as someone expresses a view, there is always someone else like Yabby who starts calling them names - fanatical vegans in this case.

I eat meat; I am not an animal lover; but, I am totally opposed to live animal exports. I don't even like to see animals in stock trucks, although I admit that there is no other practical way of transporting them these days. And, their journeys are relatively short.

There is, however, the ability to have stock killed in Australia by Halal butchers, and the frozen carcasses shipped overseas.

Religion is a poor excuse for uneccessary animal cruelty.

Hi all

Mr Right, none of us believes that the world will become vegetarian any time soon, and it is cruelty we oppose. Being vegan/vegetarian, to Yabby, automatically makes one a fanatic,as you may have noticed. As for journeys on stock trucks, please read the following:

January2008
"Animals’ Angels inspectors trail a routine sheep transport from Katanning saleyard in West Australia to a feedlot near Adelaide in South Australia. The sheep destined for slaughter were sourced perhaps from a farm, transported to the saleyard, sold there, then loaded and transported again; all without water and feed-a process of over 74 hours.

In WA the animals must not be transported for more than 30 hours without water. The journey time alone was 52 hours. There are also differences in WA law and South Australian law which allow different transport/water deprivation times. The WA driver was reluctant to assist two downer sheep and it appears clear it was these two who died along with some other sheep on the way. Luckily the Police arrived while the driver parked at the border for 6½ hours- the sheep standing in the hot transport crate without much air flow. The Police were excellent help and made sure the dying sheep was killed efficiently as possible. Only 1 driver at a time transports the animals, which is of great concern especially if there is an accident. During the WA border to Adelaide-SA period the SA driver was very ill and asked Animals’ Angels to get an ambulance then take care of the sheep and dogs while he went to hospital. This delay put extra pressure on the already stressed animals. Some died as a result of the WA-SA transportation. We will be taking our full investigation to the proper authorities".

http://www.animals-angels.de/index.php?sessionLang=de&pageID=627&synlink:docID=ir8960&synlink:linkID=6

Note the use of words "routine journey".

Conversely, Yabby would have us believe, by posting links to the websites of the live export agents, that the live export industry is regulated and monitored. They cannot even monitor transports, feedlots and saleyards IN Australia, never mind in importing countries.

Cheers
Nicky

I remind Nicky and Mr Right, that anyone is free to buy those sheep
and slaughter them in Australia, if they wish. Yes indeed, many
sheep are trucked across Australia for slaughter. Putting them
on a boat, where they have food and water, gain weight along the
way, is certainly the preferred option.

Loading of a ship is between AQIS and the companies involved.
If I was either of those, I would not go answering the questions
of every greenie vegan demonstrator who is campaigning against the
live trade.

The articles published in the Countryman were put on the Wellard
website, because farmers like myself requested that more
information about the trade was finally made public, after so
much rubbish has been broadcast on the internet, by those
with a clear agenda to shut the trade down.

Its time that those who oppose the trade, put up or shut up.
They are free to buy those sheep in Australia and slaughter them
here.

Hi again all

Mr Right, if you go to the link that Yabby so kindly provided, you will find it is Wellards, the live exporters.It features a number of articles by Cameron Morse, editor of Countryman newspaper. Mr Morse is also a sheep farmer, who got to do one voyage on a ship called the "Becrux", the only one of a couple of ships that is less than 25-30 years old, and not a converted oil tanker, car transporter, or container ship. Journos only ever get near the "Becrux".

That notwithstanding, on its maiden voyage in 2002, the "Becrux" left Australia a total of 63,413 sheep and 1,977 cattle from Victoria and WA destined for Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Oman.

880 cattle and 1,400 sheep died after the vessel met temperatures of 45 degrees+ and humidity in the Arabian Gulf. The remaining animals were rejected by Saudi officials and had to remain on board until another buyer was found to accept them. Many of the cattle were Bos Taurus breeds who should never been loaded, and heat exhaustion was the major cause of death of the cattle. Of the sheep,many were ill before they were even loaded. They die of starvation,disease and trauma.

You will note that Mr Morse's articles talk at length about the conditions on the "Becrux". Looking at the numbers of animals it carries and the numbers of crew, in particular qualified people, there is quite an imbalance. Mr Morse pays scant attention to what happened to the animals after they were offloaded from the "Becrux", merely a brief paragraph about PETA being untruthful about conditions in Jordan.

In the last 7.30 Report program featuring this trade, it was Jordan where the South American bull was beaten so hard over the head that he was on his knees trembling, before he was hacked to death with machetes, and it is Jordan where Animals Australia has succeeded in having slaughterhouse operations shut down because of appalling cruelty. That's before we even get to the other countries.

(To continue)

Cheers
Nicky

Continued

The fact that these countries have MoUs in place with Australia is completely meaningless because they provide only for the animals to be offloaded in the event of a "dispute". They have not yet been tested and are not legally enforceable. They were only made to avert the possibility of another "Cormo Express" public relations disaster. Incidentally, there are NO MoUs in place with South East Asian countries which also import Australian animals.

The only additional one was with Egypt, and we have seen how well THAT worked on various reputable documentaries. The fact that are signatories to OIE standards is also meaningless because they do not comply with them, and they are minimal standards anyway that would not be tolerated in Australia.

You can see more at Animals Australia's Live Export Indefensible website or at www.liveexportshame.com.

But do go ahead and read the fairy tales of Cameron Morse at the Wellard's website (that alone says it all) for a "balanced perspective".

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky dear, so please point out, what in the articles that Cameron
Morse wrote, was a fairy tale?

Mr Right

I appreciate your reasoned and accurate assessment of the livestock industry in Australia.

Despite the fact that I am not a vegan, Yabby, a live exporter, fallaciously and persistently peddles information to the contrary.

Our own persistence in informing OLO members of the operations in the livestock industry is due to the fact that this industry has been incredibly successful at convincing legislatures and agencies to exempt them from animal welfare regulation.

The real beneficiaries of these exemptions are those who peddle in live animals - the "Woolworths" of farming that run animals through assembly lines in an ongoing effort to maximize production.

This industry violates all definitions of cruelty to animals. These animals must remain in Australia for slaughter.

The livestock exporters hire lobbyists and participate in influencing the equally appalling ministers who have revealed many times that they are unfit to govern.

Many Australians are doubtless aware of the woeful lack of legal protection for these hapless animals. Not only do the laws fail to assure even a minimally decent life for these animals, they do not provide protection against the most egregious treatment overseas where they suffer a sadistic and terrifying fate.

Egyptian legislation is virtually non-existent in the humane treatment of its animals. There is much to be gleaned from the Internet on the atrocities committed there:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/stoptheslaughterinegypt/

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2008/06/an-egyptian-zoo.html

Mr Rudd, whose office assured me in writing that "animal cruelty will not be tolerated" has permitted the resumption of live exports to Egypt:

The State Welfare Act has recently revealed its impotence, due to the Federal government Act and this government maintained its silence over the live exporter, Emanuels, who were found guilty of animal cruelty but escaped prosecution.

Yet all Animal Welfare laws protecting animals, outlaws outrageous neglect and deliberate, wilful, sadistic, deviant, extraordinary, or unnecessary cruelty.

Sadly all these practices are institutionalised and flourish in the live export industry where they are protected under the umbrella of Australia's equally reprehensible "legislators."

Unfortunately, good men look on and say nothing.

Re the following:

-Animal Cruelty
-Henson thread, images.. meanings..etc

Check out this :)

http://therspcaneedsyou.com.au/

which was where clicking on the RSPCA link took me from OLO.

I can't quite work out what a pretty teenager has to do with animal cruelty.

That's very odd Boazy. Strange indeed and I see the young girl changes to an old lady. I'm afraid I'm unable to join the dots. Perhaps we should voice our objections?

Boazy

After waiting some 5 minutes (long-distance call) on the RSPCA site in NSW, I contacted the WA division.

I suggested to them that the site in question was offensive and asked if it could possibly be a fake.

"Please ring the NSW division" was the response.

Hmmmm....what can I say?

Hi all

Dickie and Boaz_David, I'm a little mystified by the graphics there too, I must admit. Dramatic licence, perhaps?

Much as it pains me to have to repeat myself in the case of Yabby's pathetic questions, here is what is wrong with Cameron Morse's assessment of the live export industry:

1. Morse is a journo who writes for a farming journal. Is he going to tell farmers anything they may not want to hear?

2. Why did he not go on, say the "Bader III", "Al Kuwait" or the "Torrens" (previously known as the "Farid F" and detained in Australian ports at least six times because it is falling to bits)

3. The woeful imbalance of "competent" crew in relation to the number of animals the "super-carrier" "Becrux" carries

4. The scant detail provided about what happened to the animals once they were off-loaded from the "Becrux" (a couple of paragraphs was all I could find).

I'm sure he had a happy, leisurely cruise at the exporters expense, and they went to great lengths to ensure that he only saw what they wanted him to see. Anything else he saw by mistake he didn't bother telling us about.

Yabby, answer this for us. On THAT voyage of the "Maysora" (November 2006) when they loaded all the Southern bred cattle in clear violation of their OWN standards, 450-odd died. It was identified that the ship had nowhere near sufficient captive bolts to deal with the dying animals. Is this common practice? Likewise THAT voyage of the "Al Messilah" in February 2006.

How is it that Animals Australia has been able to film what they have, on FIVE separate investigations, in multiple countries, if it's as good as you say it is?

Nicky

Ok Nicky, so you can't pinpoint a single "fairytale", as you claimed.
A number of journalists have now travelled on ships, all reporting
similar trips, including a journalist from the ABC.

*Morse is a journo who writes for a farming journal. Is he going to tell farmers anything they may not want to hear?*

So bankers can't write about banking? Psychologists can't write
about psychology? If any one has a vested interested here, it
is you and Dickie, as you both admit to being on a crusade to
stop the live trade at any cost, using the media as your weapon.

Even if those sheep went on the Queen Mary, as you said, that would
still not be good enough for you. So your thread is not even
about regulations, but about an ongoing effort to keep the topic
in the limelight and try and force the Govt to follow your agenda.

The ratio of "competent crew" not being correct, is simply
your unqualified opinion. You are not a vet, you hardly know much
about sheep. You don't know the crew and have never been on
the boat. All we know about you is that you are a vegan animal
liberation crusader, who supports Peta, Animal Liberation etc,
who doesent even think we should be farming livestock. That
does not qualify you to judge the crew on a boat. Every boat
has a vet on board, plus trained stockmen

Hi all

Come off it, Yabby, we all know what this is about. Cameron Morse had a nice trip on the only live export ship journos are allowed anywhere near because the others are so bad, and said all the things he was supposed to say. We all know how good the regulations are, even before the animals leave this country. We all know that a couple of dozen people, even if one or two of them is any good, cannot possibly adequately care for 100,000 or so animals, and certainly nor can one veterinarian.

We know that AQIS reports are based on Captain's reports, in whose interest it clearly is to say what they are supposed to say, and likewise the veterinarian and stockmen if they want to keep their jobs. We know that the crews are from third world countries where the welfare of animals is a seriously low priority.

You once said that it is in the interests of the exporter for the sheep not to die. On that last voyage from Tasmania on the "Al Messilah" (28 year old converted car carrier), it was anticipated that more than the 1600 or so would die, so they didn't even bother putting enough feed on the ship (read the AQIS report), and that's one of the reasons why so many starved.

Then we know what happens to the animals when they get there, and are way beyond the reach of even these meaningless regulations, we have seen enough evidence. Time to give up trying to defend the indefensible. I'm afraid, our evidence stacks up far better than yours (or Wellards, or MLA's...)

Nicky

What we know Nicky, is that you will use any old excuse to try and rubbish the
live trade, due to your crusade of using the media to try and shut it down.

So what if a ship is 28 years old? The QE2, a passenger liner, did nearly
40 years of service!

You still cannot point out a single fairytale in those articles. Other journalists
have reported much as Morse did. They are far less biased then you are and are
running no campaigns as you are. Much more likely they are simply writing
what they find and due to your crusade, you of course would never admit that.
You have a clear agenda, those journalists don’t.

You have no idea how many people it takes to look after sheep on a boat,
as you have never looked after sheep on a boat and as far as I know, have
never even worked with sheep in a set of sheepyards. I remind you that plenty
of farmers run 10’000 sheep or more per labour unit.

Yes, it is in the shippers interests to have sheep arrive alive and in good
condition, for the economic loss of losing large numbers of sheep, can
be huge.

What we have however, in every field of human endevour,is something called
bad judgement. It happens all the time and because of it, American investment banks
crash, presidents start wars, planes crash, ships sink, you name it, it happens.

Check out any company employing people, you will see bad judgement happening
regularly. Live shippers are no different to the others. A great deal of what AQIS
does with its systems and audits, be it in fish processing or any other field that they
work in, is to have things in place, so that they are kept to a minimum. They are
not traffic cops.

What your evidence does is to take isolated incidents and try and run them for all
they are worth, to achieve your goal of shutting down the trade, using the media.

It has little to do with objectivity, everything to-do-with propaganda.

Hi all

Yabby, Morse's whole series of articles are fairytales. Be serious, he is a farming journo (as I bet all the others were, can you provide links to those stories?), who went on the only half decent ship these hapless animals are forced upon, and painted a pretty picture of how lovely it all is. Your statement about farmers running "10,000 sheep per labour unit" only bears out my earlier comment that you people want to have more animals than you can properly look after (that's why so many die in paddocks, as reported, one presumes).

And there are SO MANY isolated instances of "bad judgment"(not breaching the ALES to save a quid, of course). And SO MUCH clear evidence of what happens to these animals in importing countries which are signatories to totally meaningless agreements. You are an armchair commentator, because YOU have never been on one of these voyages, nor have you seen the handling and slaughter practices in the Middle East first hand.

You just take MLA's glossy propaganda as gospel and preach relentlessly from it (as you accuse us of doing in reverse), and when you are caught out, throw in a series of distractors to get yourself out of the proverbial.

Nicky

*Morse's whole series of articles are fairytales.*

Nicky, you repeat the same dogma over and over and yet you can't
so far point to a single fact in the articles, which is a fairytale.

Just repeating yourself over and over, does not make your claim
true.

I remind you that Siba ships are setting new benchmarks in the industry
and have two shiny, brand new ships, being built right now.
Yes, there were some old kites, but things are changing, that is the
point. Alot of boats had to have a major refit, to meet the new
standards. Others were sold and landed up on the Brazil trade, where
nobody sets any standards, unlike Australia.

*you people want to have more animals than you can properly look after*

You have no experience with sheep, so have no idea about how many
people it takes to look after which number of sheep. Qualified vets
can make that judgement, or people with years of livestock experience,
not vegan, animal liberation protesters such as yourself.

I remind you that staff don't bemother them, simply treat any that
could be sick. If you read the articles, you'll find they spend
half their time cleaning water troughs, which might not even need
that much cleaning.

Yes, sheeps legs are tied in the ME, the same happens in Australia.
Yes some sheeps throats are cut in the ME, the same as in Australia.
People all through country Australia knock off sheep every day and
they don't own stun guns.

Hi all

Yabby, that's pretty much enough to rest my case with, I think. You have explained to everyone just what you people are really like.

If there are 10,000 sheep per "one labour unit" don;t even trey to tell us that they "treat sheep that are sick" - that's probably why so many are reported to be dying in paddocks. And I have already critiqued Morse's stories enough without requiring any further clarification. Any reader with half a brain will see them for the paid stories that they are.

Nicky

*Any reader with half a brain will see them for the paid stories that they are.*

Nicky, so you claim. Morse was in fact one of the best journalists
that the Countryman has employed. He wrote what he saw, I read his
articles over a long period of time. Now, as you can show no evidence
of any "fairytales", you try to shoot the messenger, as he has
not written what suits your dogma and agenda.

I remind you that when 10'000 healthy sheep are loaded on a boat,
99% do just fine, fed and watered largely automatically. That
leaves 100 sheep to be treated over a 12 day trip, that is 8 per
day, or an hour each, over an 8 hour day. Sounds like a stressfull
job to you? Fact is, you are trying to discuss a topic about
which you know nothing and have no experience.

What we do know is your agenda.

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/downloads/reference/docs/040817_petakids.pdf

Clearly the organisation which you support with such enthusiasm,
is basically a vegan cult, who it turns out, is now traumatising
children as part of their agenda. Shame on you

Thank you for that link Yabby

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/downloads/reference/docs/040817_petakids.pdf

You may have to enlighten me as to who these "consumerfreedom" people are and why they have gone to so much trouble to dedicate an entire URL to animal rights' organisation, PETA.

I was unable to find an "About", "Home" or any other button to push, except for a Washington address on the last page. Could these people be the livestock industry promoting the industrial production of animals?

Do you know if they have also dedicated other URLs to the myriad of organisations around the world promoting kindness to animals and/or vegetarianism? My, they will be busy:

http://www.powerfulbook.com/support.html

http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Hunts/Makah/op-le-to.htm

http://www.arkonline.com/animal_welfare_orgs.html

So why the name "consumerfreedom?" Of course we are free to consume what we wish despite the expenditure of Australian taxpayers' money to employ celebrities to coerce little kiddies to eat the industry's product and the millions being spent overseas to promote the cruel, live export industry.

Of course they don't tell the real story to the little kiddies, do they? You know Yabby, the farm to plate story? And what about the 414,000 poor little animals overboard?

No I'm sorry Yabby. I truly believe you are yesterday's man and your argument is medieval, obsolete and terribly flawed. Good citizens are now much better informed from reading articles by good authors who have revealed the heinous truth about man's inhumanity to farmed animals.

And how delighted was I to learn that the Christian and non-Christian churches are now speaking out on the atrocities committed on livestock in your industry.

Nov. 11, 2007: "On Wednesday, clergy from 20 faith traditions -- including Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Pentecostal and Roman Catholic -- will sign a statement declaring a moral duty to treat animals with respect. At a ceremony in Washington, they will call on all people of faith to stop wearing fur, reduce meat consumption, and buy only from farms with humane practices."

You see Yabby? Despite your hatred of the religious, there is a compassionate God after all. Hallelujah - praise the Lord!

Dickie dear, as another Peta supporter, I am not surprised that
you are trying to shoot the messenger. Frankly I don't give a hoot
who collected the information, what matters is, if it is accurate or
not.

I notice that you have made no attempt to deny any of it.

If Peta are going around, telling children that mommy and daddy are
killers, then firstly, the information is untrue, secondly that
would clearly be rather traumatic for children to digest and
perhaps leave some psychological scars on those children.

Now if you support those kinds of tactics, in the name of your crusade,
then you are as guilty of child abuse, as are Peta.

Dear Yabby

Reputable authors publish citations, links etc to substantiate their claims. Your link is the weakest I've ever witnessed - masked in anonymity, lacking supporting evidence, yet venting a brutal attack on one organisation.

"If Peta are going around, telling children that mommy and daddy are
killers, then firstly, the information is untrue, secondly that
would clearly be rather traumatic for children to digest and
perhaps leave some psychological scars on those children."

The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks and how melodramatic of you my dear Yabby.

Psychological scars eh? And how traumatised would the little children be if they witnessed the truth in an unregulated industry which brutalises Australian animals?:

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

You are concealing the stark realities of industrial farming and together with an unethical cabal and aligned governments, continue to dupe the public.

The unregulated, Australian livestock industry has been particularly proficient at suppressing information which consumers are entitled to.

The Emanuel live exporters were found guilty, in a court of law, of animal cruelty yet the collusive and fraudulent WA government took measures to ensure justice would not be served. Furthermore, the Federal government, which had an ethical obligation to correct that injustice, maintained their silence. As a reward for brutality, Mr Rudd permitted the resumption of live exports to the land of the barbarians - Egypt.

My dear Yabby. Your industry is thoroughly despicable, unregulated and the existing laws are unenforceable.

So enough of your chatter - off you go now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/news/exposed-the-long-cruel-road-to-the-slaughterhouse-781364.html

.* Your link is the weakest I've ever witnessed *

Well then see for yourself:

http://www.furisdead.com/feat-momfur.asp

and

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36208

If you Dickie, think its ok to tell children that their parents
are killers and don't see the problem, then you are way further
sucked in by your new "religion", then even I had imagined.

I wonder how you would have reacted, if grown ups had told your
kids that you were a killer, even if it was not true.

Child psychologists clearly don't agree with you and nor do
any kind of rational people.

Your vegan cult is a rather sick and fanatical cult

Hi all

Yabby, this discussion would have been better contained in the PETA thread, but of course, you have to spread your the gospel according to MLA as widely as possible. But don't you think that your endless denials of the reality of livestock industries in Australia and the live export industry are getting rather tired and boring? We have seen it all before, so many times.

You accuse me, and presumably Dickie of knowing nothing about animals. One does not have to have been a farmer (or even a veterinarian) to know gross animal abuse when they see it - and we have, time and time again in the Middle East, where you send your lambs. Having seen that, you are clearly still comfortable with doing so, and that is far, far worse than anything propaganda PETA has ever done. Did you notice for example, the children in the Middle East photographs watching impassively the torture of these animals? Now THAT is child abuse. Furthermore, it is a good thing if children are questioning these things, they SHOULD know the story "from paddock to plate", as Dickie describes it. They may be some hope for the next generation that way.

As for your website, if the people who put this document together are too cowardly to identify themselves as the authors and reference their material according to normal literary standards, they cannot be regarded as having any credibility. Now, let's get back to the regulations, lack thereof, and the total lack of enforcement and enforceability of them. Come up with something even slightly original too.

Nicky

My dear Yabby

You've resorted to latching onto a comic which further reduces the credibility of those you represent, particularly when, in the US last year, all movie critics were discussing the film "Mommy kills Animals." This was produced by Academy Award winner, Curt Johnson - nothing whatsoever to with PETA, who by the way, declined to participate in this very graphic but informative film.

Ben Stein, American writer/actor and gameshow host, who participated in the film (together with many other prominent people) declared that those who inflict pain on animals are: "creepy, miserable, selfish and evil."

He would of course, been referring to those who grew the 9 billion animals for slaughter, in the most appalling conditions in the US, the notorious and ignominious live exporters in Australia and let us not forget the vivisectionists who mutilated and tortured 6 million lab. animals during 2004 in Australia.

Ah Yabby, live sheep exporter, I think your days may be numbered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1uEplX1Vw8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOi-WVPoyQI

Dickie, you clearly never bothered to read the news report, to which I posted a link.
It was dated 2003, long before any movies were made. You also missed the comment
from the professional psychologist.

Yes, Peta use comic strips amongst other things, to suck in young impressionable
kiddies. Brainwashing kiddies works, as the Catholics know all too well.

Telling kiddies lies for Peta, is clearly no problem for you. You are nearly as
fanatical as the Taliban, the vegan Taliban!

Sadly, none of you girls have even twigged after all these years, that there is a live
trade, because there is no competitive meat industry in Western Australia. If there
was one, the boats would not find it worth their while coming here. You are both
so obsessed with hating farmers and farming, that thousands of farmers going broke
is what you hope for. I have news for you, the rest of Australia does not agree.

So for something like 28 years, you have failed in your objective. Keep dreaming!

Nicky, as I’ve pointed out before, given that the Queen Mary is not even good enough
for you, arguing about regulations is fairly pointless, for you will never
be satisfied. Besides, they are the business of the shippers and AQIS, neither of
whom is answerable to every protester who happens to turn up on the wharf.

Nicky, as has been shown time and time again on here, you know so little about
sheep that you don’t understand the behavioural differences between sheep and
your pet pooch and they are large.

Maternal hormones are not enough to qualify you to pass informed comment about
livestock, leave that to people who are qualified.

But then fanatics driven by ideology and not be reasoned with, so I guess the debate
will just continue in circles, as it has for years now.

"You are nearly as fanatical as the Taliban, the vegan Taliban!"

Goodness gracious me Yabby.

How very uncharitable. Is it not you, who like the Taliban, torture and slaughter your victims?

'You are both so obsessed with hating farmers and farming, that thousands of farmers going broke is what you hope for.'

Tut tut Yabby. It is only the brutal ones we object to - certainly not the kindly, hardworking farmer.

And you poor thing Yabby. On and on you go about the Queen Mary, maternal hormones, cults, ideology, fanatics, Catholics, brainwashing, PETA, yet not a word about the unimaginable brutal treatment of the animals sent off on your ships of death. Oh yes, I've just been reminded to request from Mr Burke, a copy of the "regulations" pertaining to live exports. Perhaps Nicky has sighted them?

And please, Yabby, could you stay on topic, there's a good chap.

Hi all

Dickie, he can't stay on the topic, because he has proved he has nowhere to go. Quite frankly, if the moral decrepitude of the live export industry is all that keeps WA farmers afloat, then they deserve to go broke. Ethical businesses operate in line with community expectations, and gross animal cruelty is not consistent with the values of most of the community. What is hurting them all is how much the public knows about it now.

As for the Catholic church, the population explosion, the banks, the Queen Mary and AQIS (and I've already proved how worthless they are at what they do) I don't think I'll even bother going there again. We get the same tired old claptrap put up by Yabby every time because he CANNOT ADMIT that what happens to these animals WHEN THEY ARRIVE in these (Taliban inspired) countries is WRONG. He just doesn't want to go there because he cannot defend the indefensible. As for the gospel according to MLA, you can fit the number of people "working in animal welfare" in the Middle East in a phone box, and that explains what a tokenistic gesture it is, inspired solely by the fact that they have been exposed so often. How many million more animals should we send them to "practice" on, Yabby?

Yabby, you need to read up on what the Taliban is really about. It is violent and brutal, and that describes those involved in the livestock industries far better than it does animal advocates.

Nicky

Nicky, I preach the gospel according to Yabby and nobody else. As it happens,
what MLA have to say is far more rational and credible, then the nonsense
preached by the vegan cults which you support.

*Ethical businesses operate in line with community expectations,*

You Nicky, are not the community, nor do you represent their values. You are
a follower of extremist vegan cults, hardly mainstream. In fact you lot are so useless,
you have not even been able to persuade the general community to eat
free range eggs, rather then battery farmed eggs. So you stick to easy targets,
like boats pulling up at the wharf.

I remind you also, that farmers are primary producers, with a global focus.
Benchmarked internationally, WA farmers are some of the most efficient,
productive and competitive in the world. People like you have spent their
lives, riding on the sheeps back, because of farmers achievements.

Primary production is about producing commodities, like grains, meat etc.
The evidence shows that there is clearly global demand at healthy prices,
for the end products. Primary producers thus rely on suburbanites to move
these commodities to global markets, as efficiently as possible. If
suburbia is uninterested, too lazy, too slack to do these things, farmers will
do it without you, thus the live sheep trade.

Running livestock is a crucial part of grain and graze farming systems, which
are the most sustainable around right now. Sheep eat weeds, which is far
better then relying on too many herbicides as the other option.

Australia is spending 120 million bucks to bring the pope here, billions is
thrown at the MV industry, education industry, but there is no money for
an efficient meat industry?

That’s fine, we’ll do what we have to and ship them out right past you, as
you have left us no other choice.

Claiming that the ME is Taliban inspired, shows you how little you know
about the ME or the Taliban.

What we do know is that they are as fanatical as you lot, which was my
original point.

Hi all

Didn't I say that we'd get the same old claptrap from Yabby as we always do? The poor, hard-up farmers. Just to be absolutely clear, Yabby, what you're saying is that the wider Australian community supports the gross animal abuse endemic in this
"industry". Somehow, I don't think so.

A little bit of creativity with the meat industry and the government would go a lot further with the Australian community than your condemning your animals to what you KNOW is gross animal abuse halfway across the world and a lot further than your continual whinging too. And it's not up to us to do it for you either. Your business, do it properly, and you'll get less of a public backlash about what a bunch of whining freeloaders you are too.

Nicky

Nicky

*Didn't I say that we'd get the same old claptrap from Yabby as we always do? *

We get the same old claptrap from you Nicky, over and over again,
so I will repeat the answers, until you start to think a little
rationally for a change.

Yes, there were things wrong with the industry, but there have also
been dramatic changes and they are ongoing. Look at the changes
Siba ships are making to shipping etc, very different to how things
used to be. The owners are taking a whole new approach, compared
to past shippers. I think that they should be congratulated for
those changes, but all you can do is spew more venom.

Everyone is wrong according to you, apart from you and a few vegans.
The farmers, the RSPCA, various Govts, you name it, they are all
wrong, only Nicky knows best, despite not having a clue about
livestock.

What you call abuse and what I call abuse, seem to be two
quite different things.

All we get from you is lots of melodramatic language, lots of
sensationalism, send Australian farmers broke as a solution and
nothing will change anyhow. Think again.

Hi all

Yabby, Siba ships has/had:-

The "Uniceb", which caught fire in the Indian Ocean. More than 67,000 sheep burned to death or drowned in the NINE DAYS before any salvage or rescue attempt was made

The “Pollux” – Two detentions, 1997 and 2004
“Pollux” in 2004 “Certification and watchkeeping for seafarers, certificates for master and officer, Second Engineer do not hold flag State Certificate of Competency or Endorsement/Recognition; manning specified by the minimum safe manning document, Ship`s manning do (sic) not meet requirement specified by Minimum Safe Manning document; LOAD LINES, windows, side scuttles, Various deadlights for side scuttles/windows not able to be secured closed; Load lines, ventilators, air pipes, casings, One ventilator pipe at aft deck wasted/holed (Registro Italiano Navale)”

(Ventilators, air pipes, casings, Number/composition (according to safe manning document), Windows, side scuttles, Ventilators, air pipes, casings, Emergency lighting, batteries & switches, Maintenance of ship and equipment, Other (working space)”

“Al Mahmoud X V” , formerly the "Bellatrix" operated by Siba ships - Three detentions,

The “Becrux” was built in 2002, and was investigated by AMSA and AQIS in that year for “excessive mortalities”. On its maiden voyage and claiming “the ability to provide the highest standard of animal welfare and comfort”, carried 1,995 cattle and 60,000 sheep from Portland Victoria to Saudi Arabia in July. 880 cattle and 1,400 sheep died after the vessel met extreme temperatures (45 degrees) and humidity in the Arabian Gulf. The remaining animals were rejected by Saudi officials and had to remain on board until another buyer was found to accept them (in the U.A.E)”.

(Data from the Fairplay International Register of Shipping, Port State Control, Tokyo MoU)

FACT - not emotion.

I'd say change is a long time coming, wouldn't you? And the two bright shiny new ships announced in 2005 - whatever happened to them?

But NONE of that addresses the atrocities in importing countries. Once again - how many more millions of animals do you want to send these savages to practice on? And spare us the "change is happening" mantras, we have SEEN the evidence.


Nicky

Nicky open your eyes. Cars crash, people drive in them. Planes crash, people fly
in them, ships sink, people travel in them. It’s an imperfect world that we live in.

I don’t care if change has been a long time coming. If its coming and happening
then that is progress. Those two new ships are coming too, being built right now.
With the huge demand for extra ships globally, due to the China boom, you don’t
just buy them off the shelf either. From project planning to final completion can
take years.

You continue with the same mantra. They are all savages in the ME, according to
you. You bleat about sheep being hog tied. You know so little about sheep
that you don’t know that it’s the most practical way to cart around individual
sheep and is done in Australia every day. Clearly you don’t know cruelty when
you see it, as you know nothing about the species.

You get upset when a sheep has its throat slit, yet the same happens in Australia
every single day, all quite legal. No survey has been done about slaughter practises
in the ME. Just a few incidents highlighted, to feed the vegan propaganda machine
and raise money. Tearing at peoples heartstrings is how money is extracted. I don’t
buy it, its not objective information, by objective people.

I’ve told you before, if you want to change things in the ME, if they are as you claim,
it would be quite easy to install appropriate equipment, so that all animals benefit.
You are not interested, your only solution is to send Australian farmers broke.

But then sending Australian farmers broke is on your agenda too, so it might just
suit your agenda to play up the live trade issue for all its worth, to achieve exactly
that.

Think again.

*I can't quite work out what a pretty teenager has to do with animal cruelty.*
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 17 June 2008 6:47:00 AM
Stone the crows David you never cease to amaze me. You cant see the connection between a young neglected kid with a bloody nose and a neglected old lady?
You cant see that animal abuse leads to people abuse.
Open your eyes David for Gods sake. These are his creatures too.

Mr Right. Your right of course about live exports. However for twenty years PETA and others have put out stuff like this over and over and over.

At one stage on another thread Yabby went to a fair bit of trouble to tell it like it is. To say what needs to be changed and to whom we must demand these changes are made.

In short these people cant be taken seriously while they black list others for working to reopen abattoirs in Australia.

We either slaughter them here or we send them live. We cant have another choice.
Now Nicky in particular protests our efforts to reopen abattoirs.
Thats pretty much the behind the scene attitude of these people.

Thats despite saying faze out live to chilled on their web sites.

No wonder why the poor animals never get any improvements and why the cruel live trade thives.
If they are fair dinkim about stopping live exports we MUST intruduce alternatives.
Nobody other than pale are working on that.

Kind of makes you wonder what really lies behind these Animal Welfare organisations.

People have dug deep into their pockets for years- What for.

They are terrified that people will think- Hey I would l;ike to REALLY do something for animals. I would like to help reopen some plants.
IMOP Its all about their fund raising - and egos. After all its not rocket science .

So why DOES the so called peak Animal Welfare in Australia and PETA oppose our efforts to reopen abattoirs and why did they refuse to help and black list us.
I think its pretty clear IMO

David

I have said it once or twice before to you but I hope you pop back to this thread.
I know I get a bit snappy but I can’t help my feeling of rage towards Church Leaders. If its anybodies duty other than Governments then surely it is that of all Churches.

Why can’t the Church leaders once and for all take this to the UN? Why can’t they help to introduce a proper bill of right for Animals?
How do you personally feel that out of thousands of letters sent out to Church Leaders in 2003 only ONE replied and that was to say they were busy with other things.
Then came a response from some of our Muslim Leaders of Australia.

Together we sent invitations to Churches and other Animal Welfare groups to work together with us under an Animal Welfare MOU... Muslim leaders in Australia have also spoken out about the cruelty of live animals exports David. What’s The Christians excuse?
Don’t you think that puts our Churches and Church Leaders to shame?

Why it is that group’s world wide such as PETA and many others are working to stop experiments on moneys bear’s dogs cattle sheep and horses while again the Church leaders say nothing.

They can’t have it both ways David. If they want to stick their noses into a woman’s right to give birth and anything else that moves of a political nature- then they can’t bow out of this.

I wish PETA and all the groups world wide would let Church leaders have it both barrels.
There’s simply no excuse for their silence about cruelty to Gods Creatures.

Of course I do understand that you personally don’t control Church Leaders.

What I can’t grasp a handle on however is why you and other followers are not outraged as we are.

I mean surely your sick of these leaders sitting back doing nothing.

Surely some of you want to jump up and down and demand they stop embarrassing you and CARE about Animals are DO something.
Aren’t You?

Hi all

I wondered how long it would be before PALE got onto this thread to discredit all the animal advocacy groups who have chosen not to work with it. Although I am not a member of any of these groups, I suspect it has nothing absolutely nothing with PALE's ideas of working with the Islamic community, and promoting slaughter within Australia and everything to do with how PALE goes about it (how it treats people who disagree with it). To find out more about that you can visit almost any other thread that mentions animal welfare and even some that don't.

Furthermore, I doubt if the United Nations is the place to take complaints about animal cruelty in other countries. A preliminary complaint should be made to the International Organization for Animal Health (OIE), and I think you'll find church leaders (and the UN) will handball it off with the argument that they care more about the starving multitudes of humans (not entirely attributable to the Catholic Church, contrary to Yabby's usual nonsense) than about animals. But you could give the Pope a try. But I thought your AFIC friends were about to favour us with a denouncement of the live export trade.

Yabby, I'm not even going to bother engaging in the same tired old arguments with you again. You know and we know what happens to animals in importing countries, and the vast majority of the Australian community (who may or may not be meat eaters) deplore it as much as animal advocates do.

But it's good to see you openly state what happens to sheep in Australia as well. You provide even more foundation for PETA's campaign about the cruelty of the Australian livestock industries. It also proves the content of this thread - that regulation and enforcement (and enforceability) of the livestock industries is totally meaningless even within Australia, since you apparently just brutalize your animals regardless, with complete impunity.

Nicky

Well Nicky, I'm going to let far more experienced people then you
with your silly philosophical agenda, advise me what the word
"brutalise" actually means. You use it more commonly then you
change your knickers, but then melodrama is part of your little
ploy, we know that.

As far Peta goes, despite their bleeding hearts, lack of knowledge about
sheep means that they will be responsible for the suffering of
huge numbers of sheep, should any farmers actually take notice
of them.

Its great to see more informed players like Fletcher, say what I have
been saying. ie. its ridiculous to talk of ending mulesing, until
there are concrete alternatives, one cannot guess the outcome of
the research and that is still underway.

Its also interesting to note that now that the price of Trisolfen
has come down to reasonable levels, quite a few farmers are using
it and are pleased with the results.

Even more would use it, if they would not have to go through the
present circus to obtain it and if it was made available at Landmark
and Elders stores, with a register, as we do for bullets etc.

But take no notice of what farmers and experienced people in the
industry say, for you clearly know everything.

Nicky
Not at all. Please dont say things that are untrue or that you know nothing about.

We strongly support the Humane Society. As well as RSPCA QLD and too many others to mention. WSPA have recived support long before pale was thought of.

As well there are also several Muslim Animal Welfare small groups that are moving mountains.

Before you ask "NO"- You cant have their contact details. Because Nicky all you want to do is cause trouble. IMO.

As a matter of fact NOT being with PETA helps the Animals when you are trying to talk to Government etc

Considering you have been bashing the name pale`s all over OLO for two years and praising PETA we have now decided to tell people why PETA hate us- Or so I am told.

I mean your attitude towards a bunch of Animal Lovers is quite strange. Most people would think a new bunch working for animals was good. Personally I think the more the better.

PETA and yourself do not think its a good thing. Quite odd really.

Sure I know we have different ways of handling live exports for example, but thats no reason to black list and group of well intended people.
Calling them animal killers and accusing them of only being interested in money from slaughter of Animals.

Thats pretty full on Nicky. So Nicky as far as PETA and their Australian friends working to black list our organisation like you that ok.

People can make up their own minds.

It really is that simple. You have chosen the extreme and we they latter.
We certainly wish EVERYONE the best towards their work to help the poor animals. So you dont think the Church should hang their heads in Shame Umm.
How sad you cant never see the answer - even if its put in front of you. Still at least you care which as you pointed out is more than most do.
Good Luck with Your Anti Pale campange for your crew.

Its served us well so far.

Cheers

Hi all

Yabby, I don't know where you got the notion that PETA or anyone else is opposed to the use of Trisolfen, and when I checked, it is readily available from veterinary surgeons. Doesn't sound that difficult to me.

And one farmer was quoted recently in the media saying that had all this research occurred earlier, you people would not now be up in arms about the 2010 "deadline". (I found the story at www.liveexportshame.com). But of course it only started when PETA exposed mulesing to the world, didn't it?

PALE, why would you imagine that I would be interested in the identity of your "Muslim animal welfare small groups"? I've already said I'm not. And why are we are STILL being regaled with the "blacklisting" story? You are as repetitive as Yabby.

You claim someone accused you of being "animal killers". But you never provide any EVIDENCE of anything, or answer what are normal questions any credible animal welfare organization would be happy to answer. You also still cannot tell us why, for example, if you do not raise funds, why there is a "PAYPAL DONATE NOW" link at your websites. Where does the money that people donate through that go?

You criticize "leadership" in the animal advocacy movement - it all seems to work pretty cohesively really, despite the fact that the different groups have differing philosophies and strategies. PALE seems to be the only one at odds with everyone. You even try to discredit Voiceless in the course of your attacks. You had a letter of support from HSI back in 2003, do you have its continuing support? Likewise RSPCA Queensland?

You really can't expect people not to respond to YOUR attacks on them and their beliefs, and try to cry "foul" when you are the worst offender of all.

Nicky

#you are as repetitive as Yabby#

Yabby at least you tell it like it is.

I can’t post to Nicky so I will post to you.

These people that ran the dark of night trying to cause trouble with our Muslim Leaders and take over our projects. Discusting behavoiur.

None of them has a CLUE what the work is - or about stock - or overseas connections.

Oh No. Bugger what been put in place so face working tirelessly. Bugger the animals. Lets just get in there and make sure we get the credit for this with the Muslim Leaders of Australia and farmers.
Bugger pale for making us look foolish,. We should have thought of this ourselves years ago.

Their a pathetic lot IMOP. I say again let us WSPA in your ears Handle with Care Hugh and that goes for RSPCA National who acted on 'in confidence' PRIVY business leaks.

So anybody who thinks we are mucking around should THINK again - 'Especially Hugh and RSPCA National.' Sure than can talk to whom they wish BUT its a matter of record 'they refused MANY meetings with Muslim Leaders along with pales lawyers for years.'

Its agreed Yabby we see the live animal trade differently but not the reason why the trade exists. To that end you have been telling it like it is a quite generous with your information. So as the others haven’t said thanks Yabby pale will.




We don’t really worry too much about money and I suspect that is” their real concern.” That and Glenyse`s and Ingreds ego`s IMOP



PETA for example have enough money and contacts that they ‘years ago’ could have used their power to put plants in each state of Australia introducing the latest tech and making sure codes of practices were followed.

That would have really been doing something to help the animals.

Ah Nicky, you forget that the pencil pushers in various Govt Depts
do not have the intelligence to make things simple, so complicated
they become.

The APVMA classifies various products, then the State Health Act
and Vet Surgeons act come into it. To cut a long story short,
if farmers want to obtain an S4, like some eye oinments for
pinkeye, like ACP to placate rams for shearing, like I think
Trisolfen too, to comply with the law, some vets make them bring
3 sheep on a ute, when they visit. These sheep are not even the
ones being treated!

So farmers waste a day, bring in the herd, load the crate, drive
100-300km and back with 3 sheep on the back, bring home the product.

WA farming is a highly efficient industry, that is not efficiency
and farmers simply shrug their shoulders and stay stuff it.
If it were available down town, they would pick it up and use it.

If you want farmers to do animal welfare, don't make them jump
through hoops to do it.

As far as Peta goes, they are just pushing for the end of mulesing,
even if far more sheep land up dying in the end, they don't seem
to care or understand. Trisolfen does not seem to come into their
debate

Hi all

Yabby, when I looked at a link you provided, it said Trisolfen is a Schedule 3, not Schedule 4. In human terms, that is "pharmacy only" substance. But it sounds like your problem is with the veterinarians, and whichever government department which classified it as a S3. Either way, one would expect that organizations like the Pastoralists and Graziers and the NFF should be the ones to take this on. It would be to their benefit, after all.

PALE, as I said, DO get over yourself. No-one wanted to meet with you, obviously, because of the way you behave, abusing and insulting people at every opportunity. Do you really think anyone CARES that people refused to meet with you? What are "privy business leaks"?

Nor would anyone, including Hugh Wirth, be even slightly worried about your threats, I suspect (and the "WSPA" pun is getting awfully tired, don't you think?). Please explain to us - if your relationship with RSPCA Queensland is all you claim it to be, why is it that RSPCA National is doing its own thing? And they're not actually doing it behind PALE's back, from what you have said, they have told you their plans - and they simply do not include - or, apparently, need PALE. Could it be that PALE's plans went nowhere, and that is why this is happening? And may they be more successful than PALE!

And YOU STILL HAVE NOT EXPLAINED THE PAYPAL DONATE NOW LINK AND WHERE MONET DONATED THROUGH IT HAS GONE. Is PALE an incorporated organization, lawfully permitted to raise funds like that?

Nicky

Nicky, don't you worry, I took it up with the Govt lol. But they
sent me to the Productivity Commission to make a submission.

The thing is, none of these pencil pushers want to make a decision,
in case its not a good one and could affect their career. So they
do nothing, just pass the parcel on.

If they want farmers to use various products, including eye
ointments for pinkeye etc, make it the same as we do for bullets.
Then we can sign for these things, even be accredited etc, but
then its straightforward, not the present joke.

Under the present joke, far less gets used then would be, if
there was just an ounce of common sense in this whole story.

Hi Yabby

Don;t you guys pay subscriptions to organizations like the PGA and NFF? I would think that they would have more "clout" than individual farmers. But the classification of the substance depends on what's in it, of course. Without any knowledge of pharmacology, I wouldn't have thought that something that is a prophylactic treatment would need to be S4 or even S3, but there may be something toxic in it. Or, you may be right, it may be just a money-spinner for government department/s and/or vets.

But if your member organizations can't do it (perish the thought) have you thought of approaching some of the animal welfare groups? I think you would get a sympathetic hearing from Animal Liberation NSW, for one, and most likely Animals Australia and even more likely the RSPCA.
Just a thought. If the argument comes from as many sides as possible someone somewhere would have to listen.

Nicky

Hi all

Isn't it interesting that PALE's "lawyers" have instructed them not to respond to me. Could it have to do with not being prepared to answer my questions, perhaps? Especially about where the PayPal donated money has gone, and whether PALE is an incorporated organization legally permitted to raise funds from the public.

Or is it just the usual dramatics?

Nicky

Pale would like to invite Ingred of PETA and Glenyse of Animals Australia Dr Hugh Wirth and possible Jenny Hodges or Heather of RSPCA to debate on Aninmal Welfare in this thread.
Thank You

In The Mean Time- Pales Member Lawyers instructed us not to repond to the extremist person defaming our organisation "a long time ago."
We know this person to be mentally unstable.

An Investigation into the way in which Animal Welfare groups operate world wide has thown some interesting questions into the ring. There are more questions than answers.
Its also noted that Nicky bashes out the PETA drums 24 hours and lies about whom she is. She Cant put her name to her comments like us. Shes TOTALLY dishonest IMOP.

For far too long In Australia Animal Welfare Organisations has gone unchecked and largely left to run itself.

It is very difficult while basically agreeing on many issues to object to bully mentality of some.
These self appointed people who have grown up like cells are destroyong the only chance these animals have for improvements to be made.
They protest people eating meat or having clotes made from skins including shoes..


They totally OPPOSE our projects to reopen abattoitrs in Australia to faze out live exports . But Hang on, Do they really.

Then why did they try to deal with AFIC and Ikabel at the same time having a record of knocking back dozems of invitations to meet with them under the Animal Welfare MOU.

Well all I can say they have gone and done it this time- BUSTED. Didnt turn out too well did it.

I mean you have got to understand the lawyers outrage . Working all day in their offices then burning the mid night oil at times to 2am to work on the pale projects with AFIC.

You might say they have taken a personal interest in this discusting move by these equally discusting dishonerable people.

People should be in NO doubt the SH has hit the fan Many people will be exposed .
Again One Word BUSTED

PALE, you become more and more of an illogical, irrational joke with each post. While threatening the world at large with legal action, you make all sorts of libellous (and actionable) comments about anyone and everyone. I've actually copied and pasted some of your better efforts and sent them to the people concerned. RSPCA Queensland (since you claim to be doing this in their name)and RSPCA National might be interested in some of this rubbish too.

And STILL you refuse to answer the questions asked. Perhaps the answers might need to come from the Department of Consumer Affairs in Queensland, but I don't know whether I can be bothered, given the trivia you hit us with with varying degrees of lucidity (but none of it particularly so). As for expecting these people to debate with you "on this thread" they would first have to know about it, you clown. And I would suggest that they have far better things to do than engage in your incoherent rambles.

As for "animal health issues" you claim to have raised, you substantiated nothing yet expected me and others to take them up. Get real. If you want things taken up, get the necessary PROOF and take them up yourself.

If you don't like it, tell your "team of lawyers" to go knock themselves out. Nothing you say you have done with "AFIC leaders" has achieved anything, the most gracious thing you can do is let those who know what they're doing and can communicate in reasonable, professional English to do it properly.

Nicky

PALE, you will be pleased to know that I have sent your comments and invitation to debate to the people you requested.

Nicky

I should think a group of highly qualified lawyers with a background in abattoirs and farming might just have a little more respect than nutters like your and your extreme friends.

The fact is ALL your friends emails have been responded to with the same realy over the lasty six months.

Dear- Thank You for youir interest in Halal meat and Animal Welfare. We have a Animal Welfare MOU with PALE and encourage you to contact them etc ..

So there you have it.

Isnt it interesting how you all bagged Muslims and farmers and pales projects.
Suddenly because you think you are being left behind you want to gate crash - causing lots of trouble- to tyake the credit for pales clear leadshhip.
Well it didnt work. Make NO mistake. Our lawyers are ready and waiting to pounce.

After all they did this in their own time. I am being completly honest when I say they are FURIOUS at such lack of respect and attempted shafting of their efforts.

PALE, I suspect that if your "highly qualified lawyers" (if they indeed exist and are not a figment of your delusions), your AFIC friends, and RSPCA Queensland read even a fraction of the abusive gibberish with which you assail everyone every day on these threads, they would not want any association with such an organization as PALE if they had any thought at all for their own credibility. You are certainly in no position to be accusing anyone else of being a "nutter".

Since you have continued to refuse to answer the perfectly reasonable questions I have asked so many times, I have referred them to the Queensland Department of Fair Trading, with particular reference to the Paypal donations link.

Nicky

- There you have it,
Over and Over the Attacks on our organization for two years.

This woman came into OLO for no other reason imo...
Is this abusive rude person working alone? = No of course not.

She hides behind a false name. She’s a coward making claims our organization is doing something illegal. We are upfront.

We post who we are. Also this is very unfair on RSPCA QLD as we work in conjunction with them.Shes as nasty as they come now attempting to also defame the lawyers you see on our web sites along with the helper funder and members

If they think pales lawyers are not looking looking at these comments they are crazy.

You would think this mob would have better things to do with the public’s money that they pay themselves a wage with.
(I don’t mean Nicky.) AFAIK she works to keep her male partner but doesn’t have kids. So I guess not having children gives most people some extra time...

Never an original thought regarding Animal welfare. In fact there has not been ONE in over two years. No interest to comment on the MLA Feed Lot accreditations or anything else. Now I know OLO rules clearly say it is not to be used for personal attack.

Our organization has had two and a half years of this both On OLO and off it. Six years off OLO. WE want the public to know the truth about the way these people conduct themselves both on and off olo that are involved in Animal Welfare.


It will be some time before tghis goes to court because misuse of forums involves working with the department of Communication.

There are others who are accountable also.

PALE, I am fascinated to know what makes you think I "work to keep my male partner" (nothing of the sort, in fact), and I use a pseudonym because of the people I know about who have had to move house and/or change their telephone numbers to get away from you. Anyone using their own name in any exchange with you would have to be crazy.

It will be interesting to see how you can possibly link me with any animal advocacy group, since I hold no such memberships (except, ironically, the RSPCA, and that is against my better judgment) nor do I contribute funds to one. So I don't know which "mob" in particular it is that you are referring to. In fact, I don't particularly care, either; it's just that you make such an idiot of yourself with your conspiracy theories and delusions that I can't help myself.

As for the other matters, the Department of Fair Trading in Queensland will probably provide me with a response in due course.

I already told you what to do with your feedlot story - do your own work (or what you claim is your work). If not, why not?

Your "lawyers" have appeared on your website for some years, since it has not been updated in that time, so I suspect that they would have "jumped ship" ages ago if they had any regard for their professional standing. As for "tghis (sic) (going to) court", precisely what are your grounds? People asking you questions about your operations? Considering that you have pretty much libelled every animal advocacy group in Australia, as well as PETA, I think you could find yourself defending rather than the reverse. As your "team of lawyers" will no doubt advise you, if you're ever in any danger of finding them.

Nicky

Dickie, I think that I have finally silenced PALE. They have no answers, so have now run away from this thread.

They cannot escape from the facts that they are about animal slaughter under a facade of ending live exports, and they have obviously no proof of any "achievements". So it's just an shell, of delusions and smoke and mirrors. Their only defence is to abuse, bully and malign anyone who asks (perfectly reasonable) questions.

It's a shame really, it would have been good to have got to the truth.

Nicky

You want the truth. You cant handle the truth.

I have been around Animal Welfare all of my life and I know that telling people not to eat meat isnt animal welfare. Its extreme and stupid and it ends up having the reverse effect of helping animals.

Look at your above post. See how extreme it is. Your openly protesting pales efforts to reopen abattoirs.

Well Nicky then your not fair dinkim about stopping live exports thats very clear.

Animal Welfare inst Animal Liberation. They are two different things.

You are a very nasty person and I am a proud member of pale.

Nobody before has done what they have done by working to reopen abattoirs. Its what the others should have been doing for years.

As I said You cant handle the truth. Because the truth is extreme people protesting the public eating meat is working against the animals and not for them.

Give me the money and I will buy every abattoir possible to phase out the live export ships. I strongly oppose live exports.

I suppose it was only a matter of time before the PALE alter ego appeared (but using the same formatting style, oddly enough).

Still, I will indulge you. If this person is who she claims to be, I think on another thread she described herself as someone who is, or was, a slaughterhouse employee. Clearly a strong connection with animal welfare.

I suggest that you brush up a little on your comprehension skills. I have not at any time told people not to eat meat, nor have I "protested" PALE's "efforts to re-open slaughterhouses". I have declined to be part of it - nothing more, and that is my absolute right. I have also simply asked PALE to provide some HONEST answers about what it does - in effect, be honest about its real agenda. None has been forthcoming to date.

You say that the "others" should have been doing what PALE (claims to have been) doing. I have pointed out until I am bored senseless that each organization has its own philosophies and strategies, and these would appear to be diametrically opposed to the bloodlust PALE exhibits with its exhortations to everyone who contributes on these threads to work with it on its slaughterhouse projects. Ask yourself why no-one will.

Could it possibly be the relentless bullying, abuse and threats PALE levels at everyone who disagrees with it? Could it be that PALE is unable to provide honest, transparent and accountable responses to perfectly reasonable questions without threatening to "bring on the lawyers" (who may or may not exist in this context)? Could it be because PALE has driven almost every contributor to animal welfare threads away with its thuggish tactics?

If you are indeed a "proud member of PALE" perhaps you should review a few of its posts; perhaps you may be able to work towards improving these behaviours.

Nicky

To anybody reading this thread may I say this is what RSPCA President Hugh Wirth complained of for years.

He said Quote= You cant talk to these people, You cant reason with them, You cant sit down and discuss sensible alternatives with them because they "think" they walk a higher moral ground.

Note how Nicky continues to say shes not a member of any groups= Then goes on and on posting their their web sites their words their reports their agendas etc over and over.

Shes also an authority ( according to her on what the others think of pale. Lets face it Nicky knows everything and speaks on OLO for everybody.

Well Nicky If your an example how they Nick no wonder we havent had many wins for animals in the last 20 years.

Your quite correct about everybody having a right to work in their own manner to help Animals.

That is why I am speaking out about the way in which you so called Animal Groups operate.
You oppose pale and its very very clear thats the only reason you came into OLO after they joined.

The truth is you oppose pale some see them as a threat.

Nicky The truth is you have been tripping over yourselves trying to find out what else they are doing.

Of course its sensible for people who want to see improvements to the treatment of animals to work supporting the red meat industry.

Of course its sensible to make sure animals are killed here with the latest equiptment.

This is all we can really do. That is how you stop live exports. This is about the Animals not your selfish rants and raves.

With every post by "TarynW" and "Macropod Whisperer", it becomes clearer that PALE is one person posting under three different identities (after ranting about others doing just that). If you want to look a bit convincing try varying the writing style - surely at least one of these identities is capable of constructing a sentence that does not contain multiple spelling, grammatical, and punctuation errors (and spare me the claptrap about "Macropod Whisperer" being from a non-English speaking background too, this is clearly not written by someone whose first language is not English - it is blindingly obvious to everyone that it is written by the person who usually identifies as PALE. I wonder why?

I do not quote from the websites of other animal advocacy groups because I do not need to. And for you to now express support for Hugh Wirth after your earlier rantings about HIM is hypocritical in the extreme. I only know what others think of PALE because of what PALE - yes, PALE - has posted here, I have had no communications from any other groups about PALE, however I'd be amazed if anyone found PALE to be any sort of a threat. They are professional about what they do, that is the difference. They do not spend much of their time undermining the efforts of anyone and everyone, and claim that theirs is/are the only solution/s. What makes you think that none of them work with the meat industry? You have no monopoly on anything, and your strategy has gone nowhere. You should give in graciously to people who know what they are doing and have not maligned and tried to sabotage the efforts of some very fine people and organizations.

Get over yourselves. Your contribution to animal welfare has been zero in spite of all your protestations.

Nicky

One has to wonder too, what PALE's real relationship with RSPCA Queensland is. There is no mention of any funding support given to PALE in RSPCA Queensland's last two financial reports, and PALE receives only cursory mentions along with other groups in its Annual Reports. In the 2005-2006 report, it is simply mentioned thus:

"Our thanks to animal welfare organizations such as PALE and Animal Liberation Queensland with whom we work closely to raise the level of public awareness about these important campaigns and issues here in Queensland".

And in the 2006-2007 report, PALE is simply listed on one of the last pages as one organization on a page full of "thanks".

Hardly the close relationship that PALE lays claim to in its posts. The poster PF, I think it was, on another thread some time ago said that PALE had no right to be using the name RSPCA Queensland as it does, citing possible copyright violations. How much does RSPCA Queensland know about what is posted here by PALE about the RSPCA and other groups? And that PALE claims RSPCA Queensland support for what it says? Conversely, the Handle with Care Coalition, of which PALE has been so critical and so threatening, features prominently at the RSPCA Queensland website.

Nicky