JOHN...continued.

DIFFERENCE

Our Christian background (such as it is) is based on the teaching of Jesus, who spoke mostly in "Parables" and idiomatic ways which were not mean't to be taken 'word literally' in this way. My usual example is "If your eye sins, gouge it out" "If you hand sins, cut if off"
Obviously, that gives you leeway for '4 sins' 2 eyes and 2 hands...
No..he spoke in those cases in the 'cultural' manner. "extreme/graphically".

Thus, we must be careful when comparing Islam and Christianity.
What may be taken literally in the Bible? Such things as direct commandments which 'hermeneutically' are not clearly 'idiomatic'..such as

"By this men will know that you are my disciples..that you love one another"

My major 'axe' with Islam is the value system at it's core, and the potential danger of such a value system gaining momentum. (Politically and Socially)

You are right that if anyone gets too uppity they get investigated.. but have you seen just HOW 'uppity' things have become in UK ? Can you imagine a mob of ranting Muslims coming to St Pauls Cathedral and angrily berating peaceful Christians..telling them the Pope must be executed? Can you imagine the reaction if we rolled up to Lakemba Mosque and declared that "Mohammad was/is xyz bad name"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya9xypqB5eo

This is not some 'Christian propoganda' its CNN.

So, I don't see the concerns of the residents of Camden as outlandish or racist.. just the expression of them in some cases.

Now that we have affirmed the 'literal' nature of Islam.. please have a look at these verses in the links, and ask how a Christian or Jew might feel about the way they are described therein.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.030

And for you personally? here is 'yours' :)

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029

Remember.."Literal" is how the religion is structured.

Boaz,

I take your point that if read literally the Koran is a terrorists handbook. Surely you can accept that not all muslims are literalists. See the moderates condemnation of the radical literalists in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnBMlmimC2M

My understanding is that sufism, like the type that Fellow Human believes in, is a relatively peaceful sect which could absolutely fit with our way of life.

If you are really looking for converts then you should know that you can lead a horse to water .... Furthermore it seems to me you would do your own cause a lot of good if you stopped trying to recruit the muslims by pointing out the evils of the koran, and instead tried to tell them about the benefits of the bible.

As for your theological arguments with KTRAD it seems to me you won, but where is the victory. You have put all the muslims and all of the lefties offside, and I'm not interested in becoming a christian. You'r elimiting your market old son.

I personally think that by saying that all Muslims must believe in a literal reading of the Koran and abide accordingly, you are playing into the hands of the radicals who are demanding exactly that. Although I'll temper that by saying that I don't think you're having much luck convincing muslims of anything.

But I must say that you are right when you point out that radical islam is a threat, that it is becoming worse, and we can't just rub our hands together and hope it all goes away

Hi Paul.... interesting comments there...

On this:

<<My understanding is that sufism, like the type that Fellow Human believes in, is a relatively peaceful sect which could absolutely fit with our way of life.>>

Amen..I've often said that FH's "Islam" is not something which I fear.

Paul, I operate on 2 levels.. sometimes not indicating which I'm working on.

1/ LEVEL 1 "Democratic Citizen" which means that I interact with my nation and fellow citizens on issues of law, culture and politics.
So, for example, if I see danger for all of us in certain trends, then..I exercise my right to speak about it and warn.. explain..examine..etc..
Can I ask you to have a peek at my new thread "Interpreting Texts" for some thoughts there. I have a look in my last post at something in MeinKampf.

Now.. none of us would denounce all German people simply because of what Mein Kampf says..would we?...no..of course not. But surely when we read about the idea of 'Superior' and 'Inferior' races then.. there is something to speak up about no?

2/ LEVEL 2 "Christian"...and in this mode I bring a specifically Christian perspective to various issues.

"MODERATES and LITERALISTS"

FH operates in Islam on the subjective/philosophical level where he actually claims (in writing and in person) that "most muslims don't take the hadith seriously"..now..I KNOW Keysar Trad would take serious exception to that mindset.

Moderate Muslims are indeed 'literalists' but they are selectively so.
They will repudiate the 'rougher/violent' calls in the Quran and Hadith for the sake of getting their kids educated and enjoying life.
"Just enough religion to make me happy,but not enuf to get me in big trouble" kind of thing.

Do you really think I'm trying to convince the Muslims?.... as you observed.. Keysar ducked, weaved, objected,change the subject, attacked the bible.. ANYthing, but admit what is staring him in the face. Nope.. I'm aiming bigger..'legislation' :)

MODE=*Democratic Citizen*

"LEGISLATION"....I need to qualify that.

Not 'Christian' legislation.. but that which protects us (Christians) among others, including even gays believe it or not from forces which are (not 'might be') a danger to us.

Example.

-England has a large Muslim minority. (mostly peaceful)
-English radical Muslims have staged savage, hateful, destructive and war mongering demonstrations filled with murderous hate speech.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZNx0xHe0p0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya9xypqB5eo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoMeUcC_M20

Now.. see this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article1517364.ece

<<Matthias Köntzel arrived at the university yesterday morning to begin a three-day programme of lectures and seminars, but was told that it had been called off on “security grounds”.

Dr Köntzel, a political scientist who has lectured around the world on the antiSemitic ideology of Islamist groups, told The Times there were concerns that he would be attacked.>>

Now.. clearly, Western officials are cowards and intimidated by radical Muslims such that they cancel lectures.

This is a state of affairs which requires not just scrutiny of such groups, but massive public outrage that it could happen.
ONCE.. laws are in place with prohibit anything like the above, you probably won't hear a peep out of me :)

David,
I certainly wish I could study Hermeneutics for three years! Good for you. So I take you point that Islam is a 'literalist' religion, broadly speaking. But I think your own point here:
<"Just enough religion to make me happy,but not enuf to get me in big trouble" kind of thing.>

captures what I wanted to say anyway. I think most muslims in Oz and UK perhaps, are of this ilk. There's no jihad for them, as they're too busy changing nappies/paying school fees/doing the shopping and as you say, enjoying life. Being able to raise a family in a safe environment, surely, must be a priority to anyone other than the loopy extremists like the ones in the youtube video. So given that this may be the case, would you agree there is two discussions taking place here:

ME:
1. That there may be misconceptions/fear behind the council decision. That the misconceptions arise from a variety places, including lack of knowledge about Islam, failures by Government to bridge inter-religious gaps BEFORE things got out of control, and now after as well. I think that the people of Camden (hopefully not all) don't fully understand Islam and have rejected the proposal through fear, highlighted by racist comments. "we don't even want 'them' in Australia!" or something to that effect. Very Hansonish.

YOURSELF:
2. If taken literally, elements of the Hadith (you may say core elements) are violent in their nature and intolerant of the 'other'. Fair point. Thus, the poeple of Camden have a knowledge of these elements which is the basis upon which they rejected the application.

I think your own prejudices towards Islam may be coloring your opinion of the outcome of the Camden council's decision?

I think we should also remember that the pope was much friendlier after he lost his troops.

So, I think we're talking about two different things, but which are connected, if you get my drift?

I have to disagree with you folks, but...

The "peaceful vs hateful" or "moderates vs radicals" debate is much more subtle and requires that we examine not just belief but also behavior.

Two things must be kept in kind: 1. Words are cheap and 2. situation (time, place and circumstances).

The many fine Muslims that are peaceful and tolerant exist mostly in the West, as a minority. I find this troubling because there is no guarantee that these same people will continue to act and say the same if a majority. In other words, why should I believe that Muslims in the West, any Muslim, is any different from the majority in Islamic societies? That is a fair question. The difference is that they don't have the power to impose sharia and Islam. If so many are moderate, why then the dicrimination and oppression of Non-Muslims in Islamic countries? Why should I believe that people like FH and others will be able to face down the radicals? (who have the Quran and hadith on their side)

Another troubling aspect is that the so-called moderates live and worship sidebyside with the fundamentalists. FH may not accept the hadith, but he certainly associates with those who do in the Islamic community. Yes, this is guilt by association, but it is fair in view of the nature of the deeds described in the Hadith. If I am friends with and go to the same club with people that will not condemn murder, plunder, torture, enslavement and rape than I, too, am guilty of these. You know who I am talking about.

That is why "I don't accept the hadith" is no defense, in my view.
Would these so-called moderates speak up for us and defend our lives and liberties if in a Muslim country?

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