"More than 200 residents attended the council meeting amid heightened security, and applauded after the vote." Of course, the international press is spinning this as hate and racism.

The fact is that ordinary people understand what will happen if Muslims get a school in a small community. Muslims will teach their values -- which aren't Australian or Western values. They will teach the Quran and hadith and ignore the hate and violence. They will blame everybody and everything except Islam for any trouble. They will soon demand unique accommodation and special privileges. They will demand respect from others, but will not respect non-Muslims.

It is time for people to stand up and tell Muslims that they should have the same rights as everybody else - no more, no less. We should tell them that they, too, must obey our laws, just like everybody else. We must tell them that free speech is a right -- and people can criticize their religion and their dear prophet. We have a right to draw cartoons of Mohammad and associate him to violence done in the name of Islam. We have a right to ask about raids, murders, torture, enslavement and degradation of nonmuslims and women in the Quran and hadith. We have a right to express disbelief when Muslims pretend this is not true or say we don't understand the 'real' beauty of Islam.

Things like this were said in the town meeting (and much worse, some very mean) -- but is it irrational hate or just a legitimate concern for what would happen to their town?

Kactuz

Kactuz :) welcome back... u've been missed.

Mate.. quick question. If you look at the Kaysar Trad thread about secularism, and follow his and my posts through, you will see a point where he claims the following:

Hadith Bukhari volume 7 book 62 number 63 "does not exist" in the Arabic version.
If I'm not mistaken, you obtained a copy of the hadith did you not?

Please have a peek and verify or comment on this.

ISLAMIC SCHOOL. The council may still be overturned.. Baulkham hills was, though they did include elements of 'community values' in their rejection. Jeremy BIGman (in his own eyes) and Abbas Aly both conspired against the interests and wishes of the FIVE THOUSAND written objections to the 'prayer hall' at Annangrove, and steamrolled the people into the gravel... for the sake of $_$_$ (Bingham) and 'Islamization' (Aly)

So, I understand the Council saying "This has nothing to do with religion".

But you can bet it has everything to do with 'politics' and the council would have sensed an undercurrent of opposition which they are responding to, but packaged in PC 'legitimate' concerns.

This is just one small scurmish of a bigger battle in a much bigger ideological, cultural and religious war.

We may have to lose 'much territory' before our 'Siberian Troops' can be brought to the fore.

BAD NEWS....
Tactically the Germans had won some resounding victories and occupied some of the most important economic areas of the country, most notably in Ukraine.

GOOD NEWS!
Despite these successes, the Germans were pushed back from Moscow and were not able to mount an offensive simultaneously along the entire strategic Soviet-German front again.

THE BEST NEWS!
Then the failure of Barbarossa resulted in Hitler's demands for additional operations inside Russia, all of which eventually failed, such as continuation of the Siege of Leningrad, Operation Nordlicht, and Battle of Stalingrad, among other battles on the occupied Russian territory.

We might lose some battles and territory (temporarily).. but we cannot.. must not, lose the war.

As I said.. the war goes on.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23771352-5001021,00.html

<<The schools' backers - the Qu'uranic Society - have not ruled out making an appeal to the Land and Environment Court.

Mr Roude said the people who opposed the school, would HAVE to accept that sooner or later there WOULD be an Islamic school.

"That section of the community, I think, HAVE to come to terms with the reality that sooner or later there WILL be a change.">>

(Emphasis mine)

Gawd Boazy - back to rabble arousing, I see. You're a veritable homegrown Churchill in your idiotic religious war:

'we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills;
we shall never surrender'

Or some such...

Actually, I think large developments of any kind that are not wanted by local communities should generally be able to be blocked by them, and I'm certainly not a fan of large religious schools of whatever persuasion.

However, the attitudes and statements from some of the mob emerging from the meeting last night were appallingly and openly racist, rather than religious, in nature. The Council has refused the application on technical development grounds, and has carefully avoided any reference to community opposition on 'cultural' grounds.

It'll undoubtedly be appealed to the Land and Environment Court, so I doubt we've heard the last of it. What is quite obvious is that open racism exists in the Camden area, but it is hiding behind religious bigotry and bureaucracy.

I await the forthcoming Islamophobic feeding frenzy - it should be quite entertaining.

Camden is a small rural community and it is understandable that they feel threatened by something that to them appears to be quite alien.
The community has voted, and it is their choice.

It should be respected.

Dear Foxy..yes...they have (voted) it SHOULD be respected...but I guarantee it wont.

CJ.. aside from your 'on the beaches' rendition of Churchills speech :) I agree with everything else you said....and I rather think the Lord would also. Remember..his 'academy of theology' had just 12 students, but look how they (with His Spirit enabling) changed the world.

The LAST thing we need are huge academic 'processing' plants for pastors/ministers/theologians. But academic study of the scriptures, and sources.. and church fathers.. I encourage that, just not at a massive institution.

Some of the stuff said by the locals.. WAS 'racist' ..but that does not diminish the cultural threat of a radically connected Islamic educational institution..what it DOES mean.. is that we must become much more sophisticated and educated in our assessment of Islam.

...hence.. 'me' :)

Without such an approach..that 'racism' to which you refer will have the same 'Cronulla' like reaction in the long run.
POLICY...not 'persecution'...is the best approach.

A number of legal actions in various countries have been launched to ban Islam and/or the Quran, as 'seditious' and 'hate speech'..and in pure legal terms, I feel they have a good chance of success.. in political terms..aah..that's another story.

"Camden rejects Islamic school - Common sense or bigotry?"

Both. The decision was for the better. Most expatriate westerners living in Malaysia, Indonesia or other predominantly Islamic countries don't try and instill their culture, religion, sexual beliefs etc., on their host country. So why should we except here? We shouldn't. The community, wherever it is in Australia should have the final say on what effects their community. End of story.

I notice that the council was very careful in rejecting the application on factual grounds. And in doing so, they have left the way clear for those proposing the development to approach the Land & Environment Court.

I have been down this route myself in the past, when a "stacked" council vote went against my own - very tiny - application. And I won, because the factual grounds suddenly turned out to be as flimsy as a tissue. Funny that.

We shall see whether there have been similar obfuscations in this case.

But the prudence of the council was undermined a little by one of the residents, who seems to have given the game away. Let's listen to her for a moment - it's reported to be one Kate McCulloch.

"Look at the news channels - it's about oppression, and its just not democratic. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization - I'm sorry, I don't want them in Australia." The Australian May 28th

I believe she might have been the same person seen on the TV News - red hair, Australian flag, white pointy hat with eyeholes - no sorry, I made up that last bit.

Any relation, Boaz?

On television one of the public made the comment that the area had many
other cultural groups living in there.

Despite the much larger number of Chinese in various areas of Sydney
there are not the problems the smaller Islamic groups have raised.

Why is it is so ?
I think it is more than terrorism or the racial gang rapes.

Perhaps it is a culture too far !

All other religions have adapted quite well to Austalia and have quietly gone about their worship.

Islam has not, and never will.

By Mr Right: "Islam has not, and never will."

I totally agree.

Dear Pericles,

White pointy hat with eyeholes ...?

You actually made me laugh out loud.

Now, to get serious.

From what I've seen of the architectural drawings of the school project - they're not very attractive to say the least - (resembling - army barrack - like structures) and would not add anything to the landscape of Camden. Also a school that size (1,200 pupils) would be overwhelming in a small rural community. Presenting all sorts of problems - including traffic conjestion.

As I wrote in my earlier post - it's up to the Council and the people
to determine the future direction of their community. The State should stay out of it.

The school should be built in the community in which the majority of students reside. Camden does not appear to be that place.

As I understand such matters no one can start a school and teach anything they like. The State, either Federal or State, has a plethora of legislative sanctions that controls what can be and can't be taught. The many recent 'Christian' schools also must abide by these laws and regulations.

So I am rather dismayed at the vitriolic reaction to any 'Muslim' school.

That some sections of the community find all this rather challenging is understandable given the entrenched racist attitudes of most Australians. We can't even deal with our own Indigenous culture without backward looks towards a White Australia Policy.

The Islamic community is, quite rightly, demanding the same rights as has been claimed by the 'Christian' community - no more, no less. But to drag into the mix the work of the extremists as exemplars defies understanding - particularly in the light of the 'terrorist's attacks against Iraq all in the name of 'liberation'. Sounds familiar. Exactly the same arguments can be directed at Christainity. But here there is the thundering silence.

The State, either Federal or State, has a plethora of legislative sanctions that controls what can be and can't be taught. The many recent 'Christian' schools also must abide by these laws and regulations.

Australia -- land of make laws and don't enforce them. Dogs on the beach syndrome. Has anyone ever seen anyone fined for having a dog on the beach? The law is communicated with signs every 50 metres or so but the law is not enforced. It is part of Australian culture to make laws and then make little effort to put the human and other resources into play for enforcement.

You are deluding yourself if you think laws will effectively control what is taught. If a school were prosecuted the punishment would be at a token level. There are laws against hate speech but apparently they only apply to Christian theologians in Victoria. Sheik Hell Lay He remains untouchable.

Saturday schools abound. These schools are supposed to be for the teaching of language i.e. English. Instead de-facto HSC tutorials and cramming sessions are conducted. Who polices that? No one.

Surely it's not about racism, it's about culture. In this case Muslim culture, which is based on irreconcilable differences in attitudes between those of most mainstream religions practiced in this country.

There are opinions and practices that are very much against my own, held by other religions here, but they don't impinge on me in quite the same way.

A small victory against the totalitarian ideology of Islam. The people from Camden have set a good example. Prevention is better than cure.

Muslims have a habit of burning, attacking and killing not only Christians but Buddhists, Hindus, etc. for example, recently in Indonesia and also in Nigeria.

http://www.bosnewslife.com/asia-pacific/indonesia/3607-news-alert-indonesia-muslims-burn-christian

http://www.exorthodoxforchrist.com/nigeria_&_human_rights.htm

The thing to do now is to examine closely the religious teachers in the mosques and madrassahs in the whole of Australia which cause Muslim people to be violent and behave irrationally all over the world

Is not it very strange 3,000 submissions about the school from local residents, with only 50 in favour of the development?
Who organized all this movement? Why so many people and so fast followed the organizers? WHERE STOP THE RIGHTS FROM THE MAJORITY AND START THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES, THE RIGHTS FROM MUSLIMS in our case. Why other communities can open a school there, there is Greek orthodox school there, and not Muslims? What will happen if other communities with the support of right extremists and knowing what happened to Camden, block the Muslims to build schools or mosques? Can we allow a small minority to determine the relations between Australians? Can we allow a small group of right extremists to put at risks the future of our country? They are not simple against the Muslims, they are against all of us , against all from non Anglo Saxon background. If we do not stop them at the very begin, if we leave them to succeed then there is a huge probability their success to act as a snowball and create really big problems in Australia. I hope, I wish the Muslims to appeal and Australian Authority to sent a strong message to every one that somewhere stopped the logical rejection and start the racist one. This is not acceptable and will not past.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

BD, How have you been?

I must admit I havnt heard that excuse before (about a hadith not being in the original Arabic) -- and I thought I have seen them all. I will add it to my collection of excuses that Muslims use:
http://www.kactuzkid.com/blame.html

I have hardcopies of some of the hadith in English and Spanish, so I can't say if not in the original Arabic. Kaysar should write to the MSA and USC and ask them to remove all those fake verses from their site. Ha!

Sadly, the Islamic school will probably be approved (someday). That is what usually happens because we accept laws and under the law an Islamic organization must be treated like all others. They use our freedoms, laws and good will against us. The problem is we don't use our freedom of speech and right to vote to fight Islmatic hate, discrimination and terror. We pretend Islam is just another religion. It isn't!

Kaysar, tell me how you can say "Praise be unto him" after the name of a man that did the the vile things your prophet did, as recorded in Islam's writings? Or are they all fakes? I notice that you (and all other Muslims) always say that we (infidels) don't understand or know Islam. We read the Quran, study hadith and all the early works and we still don't understand how peaceful Islam really is. Or could it be that we take words for what they mean and we apply the same standards to Islam and your dear prophet that we do to everybody else? Is that wrong?

One of the most fun pages I have ever done is about all the special privileges Mohammad gave himself. Don't Muslims ever ask the obvious questions about these things? Isn't it kind of suspicious?
http://www.kactuzkid.com/suspicious.html

Kactuz

The rejection of the school's application, as has been said by CJ Morgan here, seems to relate to community pressure more than an assessment of the application on its merits. I think communities should and often do decide upon new developments in their area. It is afterall, a 'community'. I havn't seen the application or fully understand what may or may not be taught at the school, nor have I read the Qur'an or the Hadith. I would suggest that most of the people in Camden have not either.

I think many are rejecting it because of the 'unknown' element of Islam and the way we have been taught to immediately link it with terrorism in the last several years. Because I certainly didn't see any balanced opinions coming from the mouths of the citizens as they entered/exited the meeting. In fact, from the coverage available, it seemed more like a Klan meeting than a community coming together to make an informed decision. I don't find Islam particularly appealing, but I'm not about to wrap myself in an Australian flag and say "we don't want their type 'ere".

I don't know enough about the application and proposed school to support or reject it, so I guess my words here are just a rejection of racism

Dear John_Dorey

I note you say you have not read the Quran or Hadith.

Please read the following, and then verify it with the link to 3 parallel translations, done by Muslims for Muslims, and please consider how this might impact on the communities named (Jews and Christians) in the tragic event of an Islamic State ever coming to be in Australia. (some words left out for brevity)

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.030
009.030

YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. ..... Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. .... Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; .... may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

INTERPRETATION. Some say that this verse cannot be 'plucked' out of context. The key to understanding it, is in this phrase "Believe the Christ is Son of Allah"

i.e..the condemnation is directly connected to... 'belief'.. which applies today also as Christians still believe this truth.

In my view, this is hate speech. It also represents the 'values' which would be taught in an Islamic school, as they are from the Quran.
It should be pointed out, that the fate of 'atheists' is far worse than the abovementioned 2 groups.

The residents of Camden (and Annangrove) might not be as informed or articulate about the matter as we might desire, but like the judge said of Obsenity "I know it when I see it".. so also do residents know 'a bad thing' when they see it.

Islam is not a race so, by definition, it cant be racism.

Even if you haven't read the Quran and hadith, you need only look at the news or Islamic societies and how they threat non-Muslims.
Here are a few verses from the hadith
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4345
It is about a raid, a women, a girl. It is about Mohammad and Abu Bakr (Mohammad's successor, one ofthe 4 "rightly-guided" Caliphs - the only one not murdered by Muslims). The people that want to build that school consider these men to be epitomes of mercy and virtue.

People may oppose Islam because of ignorance, racism or hate -- or because they have studied Islam, its doctrines and history. When Muslims respond to difficult issues they omit information, distort facts or lie. Here is an example about a village called Banu al-Mustaliq by Islam's prophet.
http://www.kactuzkid.com/mustaliq.html
I spent weeks researching the incident and of 20+ explanations found on Muslim sites, not one got it right (based upon Islamic sources).

Another thing they don't like is to talk about how Muslims treat non-Muslims. On a recent post here (OLO) we find a Muslim telling us that Islam says to treat non-Muslims kindly, with respect (KT's post on secularism). In the real world, everywhere Islam dominates, it is the opposite. When you bring the treatment of non-Muslims to their attention, they delete the post. Here is an example of this (on Muslimmatters). When I ask about how they treat nonmuslims my comments are deleted.
http://blogsearch.google.com/blogsearch?hl=en&client=news&q=kactuz&ie=UTF8
It is still referenced in Google, but removed from the blog. Muslims don't want to talk about what they do. Principles of equality are only for stupid infidels (who are "lower than animals in the sight of Allah," according to the Quran).

Muslims never want to talk about their problems. The idea that their problems may be due to their words and actions, or the nature of Islam, is unthinkable. Islam is perfect, so it must be (fill in the blank's) fault. Sadly, the only honest Muslims are the radicals (Yes, Mohammad said to kill or subdue infidels!).

Take care.

Kactuz

Boazy: << The residents of Camden (and Annangrove) might not be as informed or articulate about the matter as we might desire, but like the judge said of Obsenity "I know it when I see it".. so also do residents know 'a bad thing' when they see it. >>

Boazy has already recognised in this thread that the vile comments made by some Camden residents who attended the meeting were racist, rather than directed at Islam itself. However, as always, he's perfectly happy to try and harness that racism to his own hate-mongering cause.

As others have suggested, you guys really would be more appropriately dressed in white sheets with pointy tops and eyeholes.

Boazy, could I ask you take a short breather from your current orgy of Islamophobic vilification, and return to the "Domestic slaves" thread and explain what the "Creation charter" is that permits your church to discriminate against women in much the same way as Islam does?

And I thought the planning rejection was entirely on the basis of traffic congestion but it was really plain old-fashioned bigotry all along. Who would have thought it?

Let's not stop at the Muslims and the Hadith though. While we're on a roll, why not include the Jews and their Torah as well?

There are a multitude of evil sentiments against non-believers there too, or is that somehow different?

Oops, I meant Talmud, not Torah.

Please...we are not to forget that Islam has a global plan.
The plan is no different from Communisms.
You, me, everyone has to be brought...one way or other...to allah and mohammed.
Everybody seems to want to control these days.
We mustnt allow Islam to move further into Christianity in Australia.
We must never forget September 11...it was an Islamic idea.
A really good dvd to purchase is Obssessionthemovie.

PS:
heard an interesting story at home church last night.
Seems my wifes church had a whole pile of copper wire stolen of the roof and local police think its some of the Lebanese people going around stealing wire off Christian churches all over Sydney and also damaging them. Maybe payback (again and ongoing) for the Cronulla riot?

Gibo,

Since 2006, copper wire theft has become common all over Australia because of high copper prices. People steal it from train tracks, train stations, building sites and wherever else they can find it and sell it to scrap metal merchants. See many accounts of it here: http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&rlz=1B3GGGL_enAU260AU260&q=copper+wire+theft&btnG=Search&meta=

It is nothing to do with "payback".

Gibo: "local police think its some of the Lebanese people going around stealing wire off Christian churches all over Sydney and also damaging them."

Wire was stolen from your wife's church. The cops were called and explained there was something of an epidemic. One of the "elders" suggests to the cops that the offenders might be Lebos. "Might be," says the cop noncommittally, and so it becomes lore. Someone else (subconsciously, probably) shifted the emphasis of the story to make it sound as if these gangs were targeting churches. You yourself added the terms "Crunulla" and "payback". A young couple attends the Sunday service, their seven-year-old in tow. Who overhears someone repeating what they have overheard about Lebo gangs vandalising Christian churches with wire as payback.

And so prejudice begins.

Well, Lebanese gang activity is for real, but it's because they're Lebanese, not because they're muslim.

I dont see that you made the story any clearer with your alleged interpretation of events Vanilla.
I happened to believe the christian testimony about the copper wire (only two persons removed from the actual police/church leadership conversations) and I certainly know human nature and I have been to lectures on Islam and I do know the Lebanese (though not all are at fault, just many of the wayward fathers who teach their boys the wrong way from very early years to disrespect Australian society and Australian girls) and I was a cop and I know them through that career work and I did observe what happened in a nearby Sydney suburb over several decades as the Lebanese muslims moved in and forced out the anglo-saxon families sometimes in a most ungodly manner and I did read about the Lebanese gangs and how the "thug children" did rape Australian girls and Ive seen the reaction of members of those gangs when their buddies got canned and the direspect and hate those gangs members showed authority as their buddies went in for decades of time for those rapes and so it goes... regarding muslims and Lebanese and Islam and the invisible spirit powers behind Islam and what they have done to those people from those nations...making them what they have become today.
I believe theres a war coming within Australia with Islam...and we arent ready.

BOAZ_David,

I read the text you posted from the Hadith, well at least enough to understand your point. It would seem you have an axe to grind, perhaps you’re a Christian or perhaps you just like to take the literal meaning of everything you come into contact with? Sure, there’s some pretty nasty sentiment expressed in that writing, as there is in many dogmatic religious texts. Perhaps you could look into Hermeneutics, it should help with your fears.
As soon as an Imam gets too carried away with the “let’s get ‘em “ talk in Australia, they are quickly investigated, so I am not fearful as many seem to be on this forum. I don’t expect the people of Camden to become more articulate, just less racist. Islam is not a race, yes, but rejecting people on the basis of their ethnicity IS racist. Islam=Arab=has extremist views=wants to blow up Camden?

Hi John... thanx for the perspective. Glad you at least recognized the line of reasoning..and..that if taken literally my point is valid.

Let me clarify..yes, I'm Christian, and..yes I do have an axe to grind.

John.. the issue of 'literalness' in things religious is an area which really deserves closer inspection. Hermeneutics :) I studied that for 3 yrs mate.

In the broadest sense, Islam is about 'literalness'. If you look at how the faith is structured, and particularly the hadith, you will see they are categorized in groups which define human behavior. Muslims will usually claim "Islam is a total way of life".. and they are right, because your life is split up into such things as 'what to do when you enter a bathroom' (so the goblins don't getcha:).. there are 'literal' ways of doing just about everything.

Please have a peruse of the headings in this link.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/009.smt.html

The very first heading is this:

"It is forbidden....to divorce a woman during her menses"

This rather says it all about Islam ..which is about 'permitted/forbidden'.. thats 'how' life is structured.

Let's extend this first title a bit further... from the text:

Question:

'Umar b. Khattib (Allah be pleased with him) asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) about it, (Divorcing his wife during period)

whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said:

Command him 'Abdullah b. 'Umar) to take her back (and keep her) and pronounce divorce when she is purified.

See how it works ? It all comes back to "What Mohammad said" and..what the Quran says...."literally".

JOHN...continued.

DIFFERENCE

Our Christian background (such as it is) is based on the teaching of Jesus, who spoke mostly in "Parables" and idiomatic ways which were not mean't to be taken 'word literally' in this way. My usual example is "If your eye sins, gouge it out" "If you hand sins, cut if off"
Obviously, that gives you leeway for '4 sins' 2 eyes and 2 hands...
No..he spoke in those cases in the 'cultural' manner. "extreme/graphically".

Thus, we must be careful when comparing Islam and Christianity.
What may be taken literally in the Bible? Such things as direct commandments which 'hermeneutically' are not clearly 'idiomatic'..such as

"By this men will know that you are my disciples..that you love one another"

My major 'axe' with Islam is the value system at it's core, and the potential danger of such a value system gaining momentum. (Politically and Socially)

You are right that if anyone gets too uppity they get investigated.. but have you seen just HOW 'uppity' things have become in UK ? Can you imagine a mob of ranting Muslims coming to St Pauls Cathedral and angrily berating peaceful Christians..telling them the Pope must be executed? Can you imagine the reaction if we rolled up to Lakemba Mosque and declared that "Mohammad was/is xyz bad name"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya9xypqB5eo

This is not some 'Christian propoganda' its CNN.

So, I don't see the concerns of the residents of Camden as outlandish or racist.. just the expression of them in some cases.

Now that we have affirmed the 'literal' nature of Islam.. please have a look at these verses in the links, and ask how a Christian or Jew might feel about the way they are described therein.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.030

And for you personally? here is 'yours' :)

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029

Remember.."Literal" is how the religion is structured.

Boaz,

I take your point that if read literally the Koran is a terrorists handbook. Surely you can accept that not all muslims are literalists. See the moderates condemnation of the radical literalists in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnBMlmimC2M

My understanding is that sufism, like the type that Fellow Human believes in, is a relatively peaceful sect which could absolutely fit with our way of life.

If you are really looking for converts then you should know that you can lead a horse to water .... Furthermore it seems to me you would do your own cause a lot of good if you stopped trying to recruit the muslims by pointing out the evils of the koran, and instead tried to tell them about the benefits of the bible.

As for your theological arguments with KTRAD it seems to me you won, but where is the victory. You have put all the muslims and all of the lefties offside, and I'm not interested in becoming a christian. You'r elimiting your market old son.

I personally think that by saying that all Muslims must believe in a literal reading of the Koran and abide accordingly, you are playing into the hands of the radicals who are demanding exactly that. Although I'll temper that by saying that I don't think you're having much luck convincing muslims of anything.

But I must say that you are right when you point out that radical islam is a threat, that it is becoming worse, and we can't just rub our hands together and hope it all goes away

Hi Paul.... interesting comments there...

On this:

<<My understanding is that sufism, like the type that Fellow Human believes in, is a relatively peaceful sect which could absolutely fit with our way of life.>>

Amen..I've often said that FH's "Islam" is not something which I fear.

Paul, I operate on 2 levels.. sometimes not indicating which I'm working on.

1/ LEVEL 1 "Democratic Citizen" which means that I interact with my nation and fellow citizens on issues of law, culture and politics.
So, for example, if I see danger for all of us in certain trends, then..I exercise my right to speak about it and warn.. explain..examine..etc..
Can I ask you to have a peek at my new thread "Interpreting Texts" for some thoughts there. I have a look in my last post at something in MeinKampf.

Now.. none of us would denounce all German people simply because of what Mein Kampf says..would we?...no..of course not. But surely when we read about the idea of 'Superior' and 'Inferior' races then.. there is something to speak up about no?

2/ LEVEL 2 "Christian"...and in this mode I bring a specifically Christian perspective to various issues.

"MODERATES and LITERALISTS"

FH operates in Islam on the subjective/philosophical level where he actually claims (in writing and in person) that "most muslims don't take the hadith seriously"..now..I KNOW Keysar Trad would take serious exception to that mindset.

Moderate Muslims are indeed 'literalists' but they are selectively so.
They will repudiate the 'rougher/violent' calls in the Quran and Hadith for the sake of getting their kids educated and enjoying life.
"Just enough religion to make me happy,but not enuf to get me in big trouble" kind of thing.

Do you really think I'm trying to convince the Muslims?.... as you observed.. Keysar ducked, weaved, objected,change the subject, attacked the bible.. ANYthing, but admit what is staring him in the face. Nope.. I'm aiming bigger..'legislation' :)

MODE=*Democratic Citizen*

"LEGISLATION"....I need to qualify that.

Not 'Christian' legislation.. but that which protects us (Christians) among others, including even gays believe it or not from forces which are (not 'might be') a danger to us.

Example.

-England has a large Muslim minority. (mostly peaceful)
-English radical Muslims have staged savage, hateful, destructive and war mongering demonstrations filled with murderous hate speech.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZNx0xHe0p0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya9xypqB5eo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoMeUcC_M20

Now.. see this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article1517364.ece

<<Matthias Köntzel arrived at the university yesterday morning to begin a three-day programme of lectures and seminars, but was told that it had been called off on “security grounds”.

Dr Köntzel, a political scientist who has lectured around the world on the antiSemitic ideology of Islamist groups, told The Times there were concerns that he would be attacked.>>

Now.. clearly, Western officials are cowards and intimidated by radical Muslims such that they cancel lectures.

This is a state of affairs which requires not just scrutiny of such groups, but massive public outrage that it could happen.
ONCE.. laws are in place with prohibit anything like the above, you probably won't hear a peep out of me :)

David,
I certainly wish I could study Hermeneutics for three years! Good for you. So I take you point that Islam is a 'literalist' religion, broadly speaking. But I think your own point here:
<"Just enough religion to make me happy,but not enuf to get me in big trouble" kind of thing.>

captures what I wanted to say anyway. I think most muslims in Oz and UK perhaps, are of this ilk. There's no jihad for them, as they're too busy changing nappies/paying school fees/doing the shopping and as you say, enjoying life. Being able to raise a family in a safe environment, surely, must be a priority to anyone other than the loopy extremists like the ones in the youtube video. So given that this may be the case, would you agree there is two discussions taking place here:

ME:
1. That there may be misconceptions/fear behind the council decision. That the misconceptions arise from a variety places, including lack of knowledge about Islam, failures by Government to bridge inter-religious gaps BEFORE things got out of control, and now after as well. I think that the people of Camden (hopefully not all) don't fully understand Islam and have rejected the proposal through fear, highlighted by racist comments. "we don't even want 'them' in Australia!" or something to that effect. Very Hansonish.

YOURSELF:
2. If taken literally, elements of the Hadith (you may say core elements) are violent in their nature and intolerant of the 'other'. Fair point. Thus, the poeple of Camden have a knowledge of these elements which is the basis upon which they rejected the application.

I think your own prejudices towards Islam may be coloring your opinion of the outcome of the Camden council's decision?

I think we should also remember that the pope was much friendlier after he lost his troops.

So, I think we're talking about two different things, but which are connected, if you get my drift?

I have to disagree with you folks, but...

The "peaceful vs hateful" or "moderates vs radicals" debate is much more subtle and requires that we examine not just belief but also behavior.

Two things must be kept in kind: 1. Words are cheap and 2. situation (time, place and circumstances).

The many fine Muslims that are peaceful and tolerant exist mostly in the West, as a minority. I find this troubling because there is no guarantee that these same people will continue to act and say the same if a majority. In other words, why should I believe that Muslims in the West, any Muslim, is any different from the majority in Islamic societies? That is a fair question. The difference is that they don't have the power to impose sharia and Islam. If so many are moderate, why then the dicrimination and oppression of Non-Muslims in Islamic countries? Why should I believe that people like FH and others will be able to face down the radicals? (who have the Quran and hadith on their side)

Another troubling aspect is that the so-called moderates live and worship sidebyside with the fundamentalists. FH may not accept the hadith, but he certainly associates with those who do in the Islamic community. Yes, this is guilt by association, but it is fair in view of the nature of the deeds described in the Hadith. If I am friends with and go to the same club with people that will not condemn murder, plunder, torture, enslavement and rape than I, too, am guilty of these. You know who I am talking about.

That is why "I don't accept the hadith" is no defense, in my view.
Would these so-called moderates speak up for us and defend our lives and liberties if in a Muslim country?

Ask Kareen!
http://www.kactuzkid.com/excuses.html#KAREEM

kactuz

Hi John...

key point..

"I think we should also remember that the pope was much friendlier after he lost his troops."

Absolutely! and the problem with 'troops' being under the Pope(or a Caliph)... is pretty obvious if history is our guide.

The lack of knowledge of Islam, and a diet of The Daily Terrorgraph/Herald Sun/News limited sensationalized and populist "Look at those Muslims" kind of thing can have only one eventual outcome.
-a repeat of Cronulla.

But having said that, the other 'enemy' in all this are those who are actively working towards an "Islamic Caliphate" (Primarily Hizb Ut Tahrir and their ilk) because the IC is just another version of "Pope with Troops" except, that Islam is essentially a 'state in making' wherever it exists. There is no 'Christian' state as a doctrine in the Bible, rather there is only the 'reality' of.. 'a' state..which is declared to be for the good of the people and peace. (Romans 13)

As I mentioned in another post.. my own goal is "legislation" policy change. Based on a very factual understanding of the dynamic of Islam as a social and political force.

I go to great lengths ('ad nauseum' some would say :) to explain those aspects of Islam which are not well known, but constitute a danger for us in values and security. So.. I have to confess a definite prejudice there. I'm probably more sensitive than many, having lived for 8 yrs in non Muslim communities in a Muslim controlled country.

Fred Nile is not my personal brand of tea in some respects..I can't see any Biblical basis for a 'Christian' political party,but he is on the money when he quoted surah 9:29 and 9:30 during the initial Camden protest meetings.(specially in relation to Hizb_ut_Tahrir)

Tracy Grimshaw x3 times to Wassim Doureihi "Is Australia an enemy of Islam" see this and have in mind "Did Doureihri answer the question"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5atTSICmyI

Aside from all that, as of 29/5.. 'welcome to olo' :)

John..and to all...

2 important phrases in Islamic dialogue...

1/ "Innocent civilians"

Muslim understanding: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=C73ePf_2KVw

2/ "Freedom of Worship" (in a Caliphate)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0E06f7_A_o&feature=related

In this clip... notice how Dr Nazreen (Hizb Ut Tahrir) skilfully portrays the Islamic Caliphate, (for which she claims 70% support in the world Islamic community, to bring ALL Muslims under ONE Caliph) she used the phrase

"non muslims have freedom of worship"

BUT.. what she does NOT say..is, how this is a code word for "cultural and religious genocide"

Now..that's quite a jump isn't it? How could this be so?

PACT OF OMAR. The Islamic Caliphate is based on the pattern of the 4 rightly guided Caliphs. (After Mohammad they were:
1/ Abu Bakr
2/ Omar
3/ Othman
4/ Ali

Omar, the 2nd one, instituted a Pact by which 'Dhimmis' were to be governed.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html

Point 4 of this is reflected in a letter from Christians saying the following:

"We (Christians) shall not manifest our religion publicly nor convert anyone to it. We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it."

"Not convert"?

THE GREAT COMMISSION.
Among the last words of Jesus were "Go into all the WORLD make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you, and lo, I am with you to the end of the Age" Matt 28:19ff

So.. to 'forbid conversion' means "when you die, you are no more"

Freedom of Worship.. means 'ONLY' worship (until you die out)..but not the practice of the central focal point of the faith..which is proclamation, discipling and conversion.

KNOW...history... and our responses will be informed.

Ignoring for a moment the Islamophobic blather of kactuz, Boazy et al, those who've seen the footage of some Camden racists following the recent Council meeting that rejected the development application will recall a particularly appalling woman, resplendent in an awful green and gold dress and Akubra hat bedecked in Aussie flags. You know, the one who looked like a CWA version of a Cromulla rioter and talked like Pauline Hanson.

Well, it seems that she wants to follow in the footsteps of the redheaded racist hag:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/is-this-the-new-pauline-hanson-she-hopes-so/2008/05/30/1211654312801.html

Truly ugly, and in more ways than one. However, I daresay the NSW Liberals will welcome her to their ratbag ranks - she might be their only chance of retaining the seat of Macarthur, given the performance of the sitting member.

But the NSW Libs wouldn't stoop so low as to use racist tactics to try and win votes, would they? Look, there go some flying pigs - trailing what looks like an Aussie flag behind them.

The title offers the question..."commonsense or bigotry".
Really it has to be commonsense.
The global takeover plan that Islam has, in its heart, is centuries old.
They want it all...every nation.
If you asked ASIO, and could get an answer, they would say "yes we know all about this global takeover plan and what it means to the region".
"We know about Islam wanting Australia as SOUTH IRIAN (NZ is included in the regional takeover)".
"We know about the two-way the Islamics here have had with the Islamics in Indonesia about good old, sunny old, Australia and grabbing it and taming it for allah.
You young folk really ought to blow your noses and wake up.
There are evil powers in the world that want Australia for themselves...will you let them have it?
Do something good today for Australia...pray for her.
Pray about Indonesia and pray about China (they call us NEW SOUTH CHINA) then go and write to the PM in Canberra and ask him to put more into national defence.
This nations defences are a disgrace!
Been that way for decades!
Theres not a gun in the Defence cupboard to give to the citizens, as far as I know, if one day Indonesia or China comes looking for fresh fields (one day you could be working as a slave in "fresh fields" if the world climate suddenly changes and we are not ready)
Remember...there are two ways to take a nation.
1. is by full frontal assault...blitzkrieg
and 2. is by stealth.
Political erosion, quietly establishing powerbases or strongholds, storing up guns for takeover and by making plans to interfere with infrastructure.
Some of the latter (2.) has already happened.

Camden rejects Islamic school - Common sense or bigotry?
Whilst I have great reservations about religion (not faith) I would like to ask those who object to the Camden ruling if they could offer some evidence of an islamic council approving a christian church anywhere. I would be very interested on what grounds an islamic community was overuled by it's council and approved a church to be built.

individual,
You wrote "if they could offer some evidence of an islamic council approving a Christian church anywhere."
Do you mean if they have no courts and execute us then we abandon our justice system and execute them?
Do you mean if they are uncivilized then we become uncivilized too and give them a good lesson?
Do you mean If they are animals we will become animals?
NO, AUSTRALIAN SYSTEM, THE SYSTEM OF CIVILIZED WORLD DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT AND WE CAN NOT ALLOW A SMALL MINORITY OF IMMATURE AND IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE TO DRIVE AS TO THE DARK AGES.
We respect people's rights without discrimination and support them to find their rights. The boundaries between civilized persons and no civilized persons are very clear and visible.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Nothing much has changed here with posts in this topic dominated by the predictable Christian fundamentalist BS as practised by Boaz and Gibo. xenophobia, paranoia and absurdity reign supreme.

Muslims everywhere need a good PR team. Not like that goose Kazar Trad who was the eternal apologist for the ex mufti of Sydney, but one who will speak up for the great majority of Muslims and disassociate them from the few extremists who grab the headlines and are responsible for the entire Muslim religion being held in such low regard. Why they don't scream their objections to these lunatics themselves I don't know.

And another Pauline Hanson, this time from a Camden backyard? Probably. There are enough xenophobic fools to support a rebirth. Just have a good read of this thread. It's clear they still are alive and full of hate and fear.

Gibo,

Just on your earlier comments:

RE: China is invading
RE:Indonesia is invading
RE:lets ramp up defense spending

As I say to most people who begin to arrive at these sort of conclusions, perhaps it's time you got a nice patch of land somewhere, dig a vegie patch and till the land etc? No internet, no news, no phones. books, yes. I hope someone offers me the same advice if I become that irrational.

Dear Ditch....

<but one who will speak up for the great majority of Muslims and disassociate them from the few extremists who grab the headlines and are responsible for the entire Muslim religion being held in such low regard.>

and respond as follows:

One major problem with not just moderate Muslims, but also Westerners/Aussies/English etc.. is the intimidation by the radicals, whether real or perceived.

Tom Zrieka, spokesman for the Lebanese Muslim Association received death threats within a day of supporting the call for Hilali to be removed.

See this pls
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article1517364.ece

Much as most 'tolerant' Aussies, including Camdenites would like to believe that this is not the 'real' world.. it is.

I cannot imagine "peace loving moderates" who just want to get on with life and educate their kids etc..standing up to the hideous thought of 'some Muslim brothers coming to visit'.

So.. although Mrs McCulloch would be totally unsuitable for anything except as fuel for a 'xenophobic mob'
The concerns of the Camden residents remain real, and valid.

Too little has been said about the Quranic society which shares the address of '152-156 Haldon St Lakemba'and 'that' is what might be termed "Radical Central"...

The following have worshipped or have connections with it.

· Willie Brigitte

· Faheem Khalid Lodhi, currently facing seven terror related charges.

· Izhar Ul Haque, currently facing charges in relation to a 20 day training course with LET in Pakistan.

· Bilal Kjazal, and his brother, facing charges under new Australian terrorist laws.

· Zak/Zekky Mallah, currently facing terrorist related charges.

· Mukhtur Mohamed Sayid, with his wife Sitaka Bonjak, recently arrested in Nairobi, Kenya and deported.

· Murat Okfeli, arrested in the Netherlands for membership of an organization linked to Al Qaeda.

· Saleh Jamal, currently facing terrorist charges including being involved with Al Qaeda

(some of the above are not 'current' now)

I would hardly call concerns over a society sharing the address with the above to be paranoid Islamophobia.
http://www.ci-ce-ct.com/main.asp

ASymeonakis,
I'm afraid I don't quite get the gist of your reply. What I would like to have answered by any religious group is; Why can't people believe in their faith within themselves without forcing their neighbors to have to tolerate whatever is involved in following their beliefs ? How can putting up a church or a mosque or whatever other facilities help them into an afterlife which may or may not be a fact. By all means, practice & follow your beliefs in your home but, but , refrain from forcing others to have to look at your church or your mosque or whatever. I'm sure that the majority of believers of any faith can quite happily co-exist. Where this harmony is jeopardised is when believers force their doctrine blatantly upon others. If you must believe then do so without me having to look & listen to it. By all means ask me if I share your beliefs but also accept if I answer you that I don't. That way we'll both be clear about our feelings & get on with our lives.

individual,

Football and drinking is the religion of thousands of Aussies. Do you object to stadiums and pubs being built? We have to put up with drunken unsocial behaviour from the worshipers. Many soccer fans put those believing in Jihad to shame.

Runner,
Yes I do object to that & rather openly as well. I cop constant flak from those Aussies. If you go back in the forum you'll find that I have made reference to the mindlessness of mass sport & saturation TV coverage of this mindlessness.

Runner,

you say >>"Football and drinking is the religion of thousands of Aussies."

I think you mean millions of Aussies. And a much more valuable and enjoyable religion than the ugly depressing and stagnant religion than you spout.

A football prayer,

Thank the gods for National Rugby League and the NQ Cowboys. Possibly not our year but I call upon the football gods to be kind and let our team play as we all know they can. May Thurston remain fit and may Bowen heal well and quickly. Please look after Steve Southerns wrist and for christ sake help Ashley Graham catch a football. We also acknowledge the hand of the Gods in saving Penrith's monumentally stupid five eighth from certain death at the hands of Carl Webb's right fist. O gods, favour thy chosen team and lead them to finals victory. For ever and ever, Amen

Oh and pox on the house of the touch judge, who as Penrith's 18th man, took our best forward out of the game and handed them the win.

Boaz, you illustrate my point very clearly.

The discussion is about a school, not the Quranic Society! You hear the M word and you run for cover and quote something from the media to instill fear and paranoia in others. The same fear and paranoia you feel yourself.

To you all M's are T's, to be feared and rejected.

I think Ditch makes a good point.

If the Camden decision were 'Common sense', then perhaps we would have seen a little more than a gathering of scared and narrowed minded opinion. Perhaps council would have asked the floor upon what grounds they object, and allowed the debate to ignite into what I'm sure many forums in Australia are currently toiling over.

It seems that it didn't turn out that way. In fact it looked more like a One Nation recruiting drive than anything else.

I think ALL religions should consistently re-evaluate where they stand with regards to their bloody past. yeah, i know, i rarely happens, but for the rest of us, it comes as a breath of fresh air when it does.

Common sense or bigotry? - my vote - mostly bigotry.

Bigotry.

common sense

Pathetic bigotry:...from those that disguise it as commonsense.

common sense from unsophisticated people who have no understanding of political correctness

"common sense from unsophisticated people who have no understanding of political correctness"
Posted by Paul.L, Sunday, 1 June 2008 4:44:47 PM

Er?!...if you say so Paully. Time for another Bex?
__________________________________

Lurv talkin' to yer', but don't interpret lack of response to this soooo stimulating exchange wrongly. Post limit is imminent!

And then back to what has kept me away from your sparkling wit!(With a silent T).

Common sense from unsophisticated people who have no understanding of the world outside their benighted suburbs.

That is, unfortunately common, but with little sense.

CJ,

On this I will agree with you. However i think it extends a lot further than you would accept. I think there is a shocking lack of understanding of other communities in this countries. Most people from the left and the right wouldn't know the difference between hezbollah and hizb-ut-tahir.

Multiculturalism has discouraged any kind of sound investigation of other cultures and instead fosters a sense of understanding without actually knowing anything. It also promotes the idea that integrating into your host community isn't important. That you can continue to behave as you did at home.

You say I'm Islamophobic. That I fear all Muslims or Islam? This is not right. I fully believe there are many moderate Muslims and moderate interpretations which pose no threat to us at all. Just because I don't think Keysar Trad is a moderate doesn't mean I hate/fear all muslims. I've seen Irfan Yusuf speak, he seems to be a reasonable person.

I don't believe there should be any religous schools, not just Islamic ones. And if we are all as alike as many say, there should be no need to go to separate schools anyway. And a community has the right to decide if a massive 1200 person school is going to be plonked down in their midst. I accept that there was some pretty unpleasant sentiments being expressed by the unsophisticated Hanson types.

I don't accept that they were wrong about their right to say to a religous school

Of course it is bigotry. Can some people really believe that if the school was Catholic or Anglican that the application would have been denied on 'planning' grounds. Tosh. In fact I doubt there would have been a town meeting.

People forget that when other cultures first emigrated to Australia, there was much angst about the way the new and older cultures viewed each other. My father was called a wog for a long time and that was when immmigrants looked much the same as other Australians.

I remember growing up in a very multicultural area in the 60s and hearing certain cultures denigrating Australian girls as 'sluttish' ('scuse the term) and wanting their sons to marry nice girls of their own culture. Australians were equally suspicious of newer Australians.

Unfortunately, this pattern seems to be the 'natural' phase of transition. Those nationalities that were new in the 60s and 70s are now well integrated into Australian culture and have added to it in positive ways.

Muslims of various nationalities are only into their first generation in Australia. It takes time for acceptance but it is clear that responsibility lies with both new and older Australians, but it does not assist matters if older Australians do not make newer Australians feel welcome in their chosen home.

We are a secular society and if we accept this then we have to accept that Muslim schools will be built in the same way that we allow other religious schools, even those more extremist Christian groups like the Exclusive Brethren.

The whole Camden thing just racks of the fear principle and all it does is to encourage and provide fuel for those few fundamentalists that might make their way to Australia. Surely our secular beliefs and values would make better and positive impact if we embraced new cultures and religions rather than estrange them.

Higher profile Muslims that make the pages of our major newspapers are not the only Muslims in Australia and nor do they represent the views of the majority of Muslims nor all nationalities that might embrace Islam.

Thanks Paul. While I don't understand on what basis you say this:

<< Multiculturalism has discouraged any kind of sound investigation of other cultures and instead fosters a sense of understanding without actually knowing anything. >>

I don't disagree with anything else you've said there - which makes a pleasant change :)

<< I don't accept that they were wrong about their right to say to a religous school >>

I assume you meant "their right to say no to a religious school" - and I agree completely. It's really only the very evident and ugly racism that bothers me.

Paul.L, your post was not there when I posted my offerings but I had to comment to say that I agree with you that in a perfect world we would have no religious schools.

However, we do have religious schools and if we allow one sect we should, by extension, allow all others unless of course they break the law or refuse to follow the standard curriculum which under the law, requires conformity within certain defined parameters.

The only positive thing about this whole event was that for once a Council showed they were willing to listen to the people, pity it was for all the wrong reasons

Local councillors are mandated to reflect the views and values of the people who elect them into office.

They are not elected to shape the future of a community based on fringe and marginal crusades.

I suggest the councillors of every city listen more to the people who elect them and less to the political lobbyists who seek to apply undue influence and stick them with politically correct values as declared by central government.

I would suggest this applies equally to the pack of ratbags who darken the halls of Melbourne City Council particularly.

<<They are not elected to shape the future of a community based on fringe and marginal crusades.>>
I feel this to be true. Furthermore, Councils should act as a counterweight to the type of things that provoke and inflame marginal crusades. If people’s only knowledge of Islam is Tracy Grimshaw’s interview with an extremist whacko, news of more rocket strikes at Israel, planes into buildings etc., then we have a problem. Councils can balance these perceptions by using their power and infrastructure to raise awareness and heal these fractures. It was mentioned here earlier the many different cultures that have slowly integrated into the diverse “Australian” culture. This is true, but it does not happen without effort. Perhaps this is naive, yet I don’t see inaction being of any use other than letting the problem fester. If there were residents in Camden that would agree to the establishment of an Islamic School, or even residents that wanted more discussion before the final decision was made, how would they have felt raising their hand in that meeting? It would be good to know for sure if there was any objection, but I think we can make a reasonable guess given the ‘we don’t want ‘em here’ talk from the citizens.
This to me is not a council attempting to manage/encourage a diversity of opinions and perspectives on a sensitive issue. It is a council simply overlooking the real problem by rejecting the application on the grounds of X, Y etc.

David
Most of the people said they would object if it were a Catholic School.
It application is outside the approved zone.
Its as simple as that.
I think the people are just annoyed because they feel these people are expecting special favours.
Anyway thats the way I see it.
Foxy You know yourself if you brought a block of land and were told you could not build whatever on it because it was the wrong zoneing- You wouldnt be too happy if the bloke next door was allowed to.
I work with many Muslims but so far what I see was a lack of proper planning in their side.
If its doesnt fit council zoneing then it doesnt so stop annoying the good people of Camden and sell theland to but something that complies.
Then you wont have so many complaints
Simple

NEWSFLASH..... a group of German Immigrants is applying to build a school at Penrith. They acquired land with cash, from 'unspecificed sources'....

It is confirmed that these migrants, have been linked to a revived Neo Nazi group, which appears to be flush with funds.
7 people connected with this group have already been arrested under sedition and terrorism charges.
Some members of this group (which goes by the name of 'MeinKampf Society' have been involved in public flag burning and encouraging violence against those who criticize members of that society.

The group claims they will 'teach the national curriculum'.. but observers worry that 'other' ideas will be brought in by stealth.

They have employed the services of former Lord mayor of Sydney, "Jerome Bigman" who asks "Why should this group of people, who are citizens of Australia, not have a school to educate their children, in an area zoned for schools"?

In spite of mass public outrage, particularly from Jewish groups, Penrith Council maintains "All decisions on this application will be based on PLANNING grounds alone..and 'political or sectarian' aspects will not be considered at all.

"The discussion is about a school, not the Quranic Society!" (Ditch)

Well done Ditch :)

Trust Boazy to make an analogy between Muslims and Nazis. Of course, he'd never do anything to spread hatred, would he?

Godwin's Law, anyone?

yeah, I'm not really catching the comparison between National Socialist ideology and Islam either. Boazy has apparently studied it at length though, so we'll have to go along with it.

I havn't seen anything so far in the 11 or so pages in this thread to convince me that the council decision was anything other than small town syndrome (Small Town Syndrome: common to many small Australian towns).

I was born and raised in a small town. Seen it first hand.

CJ,

<< Multiculturalism has discouraged any kind of sound investigation of other cultures and instead fosters a sense of understanding without actually knowing anything. >>"

Mostly we don’t understand the difference between a deobandi and a whahabi. You'd think that in a multicultural society we'd know about the different communities we live beside. However, due to political correctness, the discussion of other cultures is considered an inflammatory topic best avoided. We instead replace understanding with blanket acceptance, but when the average person finds out this benign picture we have been spoon-fed is not entirely accurate, people react badly.

I have said a number of times I don’t seek to limit migration to this country by race, creed or religion. For me the deciding factor on whether to take someone should be whether they want to be Aussies, to join the pluralistic, liberal democratic tradition we have established in the west. Surely there are places for those who don’t want this. I don’t see what is so wrong with asking people who come here voluntarily to attempt to integrate with our society. Again I am not suggesting that any one group don’t. But we should fine tune our migration process so that we prioritise those who want to come here because they like our way of life, over those who intend to suffer under it until they can change things in their favour.

Multiculturalism doesn’t leave room for the primacy of our culture, which is the result of thousands of years of western liberal thought.

I agree that society should evolve and there is no usefulness in stagnation. But multiculturalism has led to our underselling of our greatest asset and as a consequence a whole host of groups attempting to pare it back or change it for their benefit. With multiculturalism has come political correctness. Our lack of understanding of others has led to ridiculous outcomes in our attempts to avoid appearing rude or insulting.

We are culturally insecure in a time when we need to be confident, and we have every reason for being so. Yet still we struggle.

Paul L. said,

"Our lack of understanding of others has led to ridiculous outcomes in our attempts to avoid appearing rude or insulting.

We are culturally insecure in a time when we need to be confident, and we have every reason for being so. Yet still we struggle."

Yes, well said. Our lack of understanding of others though has also led to some ridiculous outcomes by those who have no problem with being rude and showing their ignorance.

As for you analogy Boaz........your reasoning is absurd and irrelevant. You strive too hard to mock and achieve nothing but show your lack of appreciation of the issue

Paul.L: << Mostly we don’t understand the difference between a deobandi and a whahabi. You'd think that in a multicultural society we'd know about the different communities we live beside. However, due to political correctness, the discussion of other cultures is considered an inflammatory topic best avoided. >>

I wouldn't know the difference between a Methodist and an Anglican, even though I was christened in an Anglican church and grew up in 1960s and 70s Australian middle class society. While most non-Muslim Australians may not know the fine distinctions in Muslim fundamentalist theology, they've probably heard about Sunni and Sh'ia.

With respect, Paul, you've got the cart before the horse. At least under multiculturalism we start from the assumption that all cultures are rich and valuable and therefore worth knowing about, while under assimilationist ideologies any cultural value that is not 'Australian' is devalued - and therefore essentially uninteresting.

<< I have said a number of times I don’t seek to limit migration to this country by race, creed or religion. For me the deciding factor on whether to take someone should be whether they want to be Aussies, to join the pluralistic, liberal democratic tradition we have established in the west. >>

I disagree almost completely. In my opinion, Australia is already overpopulated and immigration should be limited to bona fide refugees, which should be the only criterion for acceptance. They should, of course, be provided with far better language and other educational resources than they currently get, in order to facilitate their ultimate integration into Australian society.

CJMorgan,
I share your view that bonafide refugees should get priority but not only here, anywhere !
What I would like to see is less refugees in the first place. Just imagine if the media jumped onto those who cause people to become refugees as much as they jump onto utterly frivolous starlets & sport stars then I'm sure leaders like Mugabe & other fanaticists would only enjoy very short careers & as a consequence we'd have far less refugees. Why is it that in 2008 we still have people incapable of being considerate & compassionate. Some high rollers start up some gimmick about helping the poor without actually thinking of what those poor need. The same goes for the law. Huge money & resources is spent in proving some idiotic technicality when a few Dollars would have gotten some people in difficulty out of trouble. Yes, here in 2008 we still have such indifferent people in authority.

Research towards my dissertation for a doctorate in “Post modernism and it's negative impact on rational thinking” :)

John D said:

<<I'm not really catching the comparison between National Socialist ideology and Islam either.>>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS81ot0UXN4

I'd be interested in your assessment/comment on this vid?

No John, you don't have to just 'go along' with it mate... rather, be informed.

Perhaps you might like to compare Surah 9:30 with what Sydney's Sheikh Feiz is babbling about

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/police-probe-firebrand-cleric/2007/01/18/1168709876464.html

Remember..its from the 'SMH' not the Daily Terrorgraph.

John, you said you don't see the comparison... yes, I've studied it, (and lived under it) and can help bring anyone up to speed on this. The 'ideology' contained in Mein Kampf about Jews did not spell out “and we must kill many millions of them” but for the perceptive mind..it was there.

You might like to explore this Islamic link.
http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion/2002/0104.html

If you compare the ideas about Jews (and Christians) in this, and how they are assessed in terms of Islamic theology.. and then read the relevant section of MeinKampf, (about race) you will see the 'tone' is very similar. One is about 'racial' inferiority (Mein Kampf) and the other is about 'Theological' inferiority. Both 'documents' were produced by a 'State'.. so you may draw your own conclusions about relevance.

'Thought for today'....

<<anyone who has access to the big historic picture, but assesses today in terms of only 'today' and sentimental wishful thinking, might not live for 'tomorrow'>>

Some interesting material, Boaz. But somewhat confusing, all the same.

I'm particularly intrigued by this:

>>If you compare the ideas about Jews (and Christians) in this [link to pakistanlink.com], and how they are assessed in terms of Islamic theology.. and then read the relevant section of MeinKampf, (about race) you will see the 'tone' is very similar.<<

Is this what you had in mind?

"Anti-Semitism is bigotry and racism. It is wrong and it has no place in Islam or in Islamic scripture. The Qur’an does not allow hate against any race, nationality or color. Throughout the history of Islam, Muslims have never used passages from the Qur’an to justify acts of anti-Semitism. The ill-effects of racism, including ethnic cleaning, genocide and Holocaust, which has been suffered by Jews and non-Jews alike over the past several centuries, has never been done under the banner of any passages from the Qur’an"

I looked in vain in my copy of Mein Kampf (yes, I do have one) for a paragraph similar in "tone", and guess what - I couldn't find one.

As for your excerpt concerning the "firebrand cleric", I have no idea what lessons you draw from it, but what I see is the law of the land being upheld against a religious nutter. Am I missing something?

And thanks for your History Channel extract, it was fascinating. As always, these things need to be put into context, but considering you view the siege of Vienna as a contemporary event, it shouldn't surprise that you draw parallels from events a mere sixty or so years ago.

As OLO's most prolific Islamophobe, Boazy shows absolutely no compunction in allying himself with racists like those filmed at the Camden meeting. He also seems unaware of the Internet forum convention of 'Godwin's Law' (despite being informed of it regularly), that states basically that the first person who introduces Hitler or Nazism into an unrelated debate automatically loses.

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law ]

This is, of course, because such a debating tactic is indicative that the user is bereft of any sound argument and must resort to vilification.

Just like Boazy does with monotonous regularity. Fortunately, most forum users are aware of the somewhat unbalanced nature of both his reasoning and his posts.

CJ,

You say >>” While most non-Muslim Australians may not know the fine distinctions in Muslim fundamentalist theology, they've probably heard about Sunni and Sh'ia”

You say fine distinctions. I think that is an interesting thing to say. Is there really only fine distictions between Hiz-Ut-Tahir and the average Sunni? Are the deobandi just normal sunni muslims from the sub continent? Is the Ayatollah Kamanei’s Islam the same Islam that Shia in Australia practice.

That is Boazy and Philip Tangs point and I’m really hoping that it’s not true. If it is then we really are in a lot of trouble.

You say >>” At least under multiculturalism we start from the assumption that all cultures are rich and valuable and therefore worth knowing about”

They may well all be rich and worth knowing about, except we don’t know about them. If we did then we might find out that there are elements of some cultures which are not compatible with our modern liberal democracy. Multiculturalism says all cultures are equally appropriate in this country. They don’t come from an informed position to make that judgment either, it is cultural relativism from a position of ignorance. I accept that in previous incarnations Assimilation led to many other cultural practices being devalued. In that sense I am not arguing for the Assimilation of the fifties. I am merely suggesting that we should recognize the value of our own culture and encourage migrants to take it on board. We shouldn’t be accepting migrants who don’t like our way of life and will actively work to change it.

You say >>” They should, of course, be provided with far better language and other educational resources than they currently get, in order to facilitate their ultimate integration into Australian society.”

I totally agree with this. And we should be rejecting people who don’t want to learn English and there should be inducements and penalties for those who are already here to ensure they learn the language as well. I note also, that you agree that migrants should ultimately integrate into our society.

TBC

cont,

Integration should be the goal of our migration program. But I believe multiculturalism discourages integration by endorsing the recreation of a migrants cultural life in closed communities, like ethnic ghettoes. This insulates a migrant from our way of life and creates barriers to integration.

I don't believe fundamentalists of any stripe, Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu should be accepted as migrants in this country as they will not integrate. Need I note again that I don’t believe that all Christians, Muslims, Jews or Hindus are fundamentalists. I just think we need to know how to spot one and make sure they don’t get a permanent visa. In that sense I think multiculturalism discourages the investigation that is required to determine who is a fundamentalist and who is not.

You say >>” I disagree almost completely. In my opinion, Australia is already overpopulated and immigration should be limited to bona fide refugees, which should be the only criterion for acceptance.”

I wonder why you think Australia is more overpopulated than say Indonesia, or Japan, or China? Certainly there is a case to be made that our south east corner is overpopulated, but the top end, which is expected to be a big winner from climate change, is hugely under populated.

Also, if we were to open our immigration to all bona-fide refugees then our population could really take off. Given the number of unpleasant places to live that are out there, we could find ourselves taking migrants from ¾ of the planet.

BTW Shouldn’t these refugees be going home when the disaster, natural or man made, is over? Especially since these refugees may not like our way of life at all

Paul.L
"We should be rejecting people who don’t want to learn English and there should be inducements and penalties for those who are already here to ensure they learn the language as well"
What do you write Paul.L, when my 4 brothers came here, 50-60 years before they did not know an English word, now they speak English but they can not write. when my nephew went to primary school he did not understand any word and his teacher thought that he is deaf!, now one is lawyer, the other high school principal etc. First generation migrants do not know enough English but their children learn English very fast.
What kind of penalties do you suggest for migrants who are already here and do not speak good English? What about the Woomera detention center? Is it enough big? How many millions of migrants we can put there?
"We shouldn’t be accepting migrants who don’t like our way of life and will actively work to change it" In any country there are many ways of life and not only one, for rich or poor, for left or right,for Anglicans or catholics, for Muslims or atheists, for educated and not educated, for the people of cities or from county etc. What about the locals who actively work to change the way of life in Australia? Can we put then in detention centers too?
I actively work to change the way of life, I prefer less hate, less hypocrisy, less racists and I PROMOTE THE UNDERSTANDING AND COOPERATION BETWEEN PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT NATIONAL, RELIGIOUS, LANGUAGE AND CULTURAL BACKGROUNDS FOR MUTUAL BENEFITS, FOR THE COMMON FUTURE!
Paul.L You are an educated person who used to control his words, what happened today and you are angry with us? (migrants)
Even Pauline Hanson was not so hard with migrants as you today.
Is not it better if instead to put them in the corner to try to understand and support them? Always bananas and smiles bring better results from the stick and hate.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Paul.L: << Need I note again that I don’t believe that all Christians, Muslims, Jews or Hindus are fundamentalists. I just think we need to know how to spot one and make sure they don’t get a permanent visa. >>

Nor, indeed, citizenship. When you come up with a reliable test for spotting fundamentalists, let's apply it to the entire population. Deport the bastards to the Middle East, where they can fight it out amongst themselves. I'm sure it's all predicted in some apocalyptic fantasy or other - just read OLO!

<< I wonder why you think Australia is more overpopulated than say Indonesia, or Japan, or China? >>

Australia's population has passed the continent's carrying capacity, as have Indonesia, Japan and China for the populations that inhabit their territories. They're all overpopulated in terms of ecological sustainability.

<< ..if we were to open our immigration to all bona-fide refugees then our population could really take off.. >>

I didn't say "all" bona fide refugees. Indeed, I think that the numbers of refugees that Australia accepts will become increasingly salient in the not-too-distant future.

Paul.L, I think that your concerns about the future are valid, but I also think that you're approaching them in a very unproductive way. If you keep it up, your evident sadness and anger will only increase, to your own detriment.

The world is still beautiful, and most people are still good of heart. Take a drive in the country and go for a walk in the bush. You appear to need it.

ASymeonakis,

You say >>” when my 4 brothers came here, 50-60 years before they did not know an English word, now they speak English but they can not write.”

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am talking about the small minority of migrants who do not want to learn English. I suspect that your brothers were not offered “English as a Second Language” classes 50 or 60 years ago, and if they were they would have taken them. I wasn’t suggesting penalties for people who don’t speak good English, only those who refuse to learn. Also I was not suggesting woomera detention centre as a penalty. I was thinking more along the lines of centelink payments being docked.

You say>> “In any country there are many ways of life and not only one, for rich or poor, for left or right,for Anglicans or catholics, for Muslims or atheists, for educated and not educated, for the people of cities or from county etc”

I accept this; however I am talking about excluding the people who want sharia law, or changes of that magnitude which completely reorders our national life.

CJ,

I am attempting to have a good faith debate about things which I believe should concern us all. There is no need to be saying stuff like this

“If you keep it up, your evident sadness and anger will only increase, to your own detriment.”

I am not particularly angry about anything, although I do get frustrated at the culture warrior attitude I often come across. I certainly am not sad, at all. To suggest otherwise is a very subjective call, and one which I would imagine only people who actually know me might be capable of making.

You say >>”. When you come up with a reliable test for spotting fundamentalists, let's apply it to the entire population”

We won’t get anywhere if we don’t understand the difference between a mystical sufi and a wahabi. Further, I’m not suggesting that we target existing citizens, only that we apply a little prudence when we select migrants.

tbc

cont,

What you seem to be saying is that the greeks, the Italians and the Vietnamese all had trouble initially, but they have all integrated well. My point regarding the fundamental Islamists in the west is that things are getting worse, not better. The second and third generation muslims have far greater representation in fundamentalist groups.

If we look to Europe, particularly Britain (which is more sensitive to multiculturalism, for example, Burger King withdrew ice cream from its menu because the ice cream swirl looked like Arabic script for Allah) we see that real problems are emerging among their large Muslim populations. In Britain for example, nearly 40% of Muslim young people aged between 16 and 24 would rather live under sharia law. Nearly a third believed in decapitation for apostasy. 13 percent said they admired al Qaeda http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jan/29/thinktanks.religion

Worse, in a poll on the first anniversary of the London tube bombings 16%of British Muslims, equivalent to more than 150,000 adults, believe that while the attacks were wrong, the cause was right. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article682599.ece

This is a big problem for our future because if things don’t change Muslims will be a majority in Britain by 2060. To paraphrase Mark Steyn, If 100% of your population believes in liberal pluralist democracy it doesn’t matter if 70% of them are Muslim or only 5% are. But if one part of your population believes in liberal pluralist democracy and the other doesn’t, then it becomes a matter of great importance whether the part that does is 90% or only 60%, or 50% or 45%.

Now I accept that Mark Steyn is a bit of an @rse, and I don’t agree with many of the things he says, but that doesn’t negate the fact that he has some good points.

Norwegian Imam, Mullah Krekar >> Just look at the development in Western Europe, where the number of muslims is expanding like mosquitoes. Every western woman in the EU is producing an average 1.4 children. Every muslim woman in the same countries is averaging 3.5 children. Our way of thinking will prove more powerful than yours.”

PAUL.. r u in Melbourne? Col Rouge and I are getting together next week most likely for a coffee.. wanna join?:)

Regarding good ol CJ.. at least he is consistent.. you being non Christian (but critical of his pet subjects) and me being Christian and similarly critical of same topics.. and.. notice how it goes?

If you disagree with me or..criticize my pet topics.. you are:
-Sad..
-seething with hatred.
-filled with loathing.

etc ad nauseum...

I find it amazing that his irrationality seems to know no bounds.

Let me demonstrate..

SYMPTOMS OF IRRATIONALITY:

1/ Paul quotes a Muslim who points out some demographic realities which will over time result in the Islamification of Europe.
(This is 1+1=2 stuff)

2/ Rather than suggest we alert ourselves to similiar trends here, no..he just 'calls you sad' (and me "filled with loathing" :)

CONCLUSION.. in the face of overwhelming evidence that 'warnings of increased Islamic political power' are well founded, he simply resorts to name calling.

Now..that..is irrationality :)

To use an Islamic text:

Quran says: "finally You may beat her" (ur naughty wife) (4:34)

Aussie Critic says:

"Any faith which supports spousal abuse by specific permission, is a danger socially."

Critic of critic (this is CJ)

says "you are sad, filled with loathing"

again, clear evidence of 'irrationality'.

CJ..don't worry mate..I've booked you in at the ANU centre for mental health research..and Dr Emily Banks will look after you.

Yes..I'm stirring, but there is often a lot of truth spoken in jest.

CJ.. yesssss this is a personal attack :) u may quote it in future.
But it has your healing in mind 0_^.

Can we make this a foursome?

>>PAUL.. r u in Melbourne? Col Rouge and I are getting together next week most likely for a coffee.. wanna join?:)<<

Looks likely I'll be in Melbourne next week too - probably Thursday.

Boaz,

I'm in Townsville at the moment. Would be a rather long drive for lunch. Thanks for the invite though, If I'm down that way I'll let you know.

Hi Pericles.. by all means! if Col's agreeable. We need to sort you out :)

you can email me via Graham if you wish.

In the other thread (Interpretation) I'll be sending a post there soon, looking at 'social context' among other things.. related to 'how adherents interpret' information.

Hope you will look at it. (take a vallium first :)

On Topic... just reiterate that a lot of the 'rejection' IS based on bigotry, mainly because it is knee jerk, and emotional and based on media stereotypes and sensationalization...RATHER than a careful, studied, information based approach.

I hereby offer myself to Katie as 'helper' :)
But.. I don't think we can cram enough into her head in the short time available.

Fred is pretty good, but his image works against him. (Like mine here?)

POLICY is the answer..not civil unrest and wild eyed villagers with torches.

All Politicians reading this are invited to the thread "How to interpret texts, religious and secular" :)

(but you have to ignore some of the more off topic posts from certain enthusiastic folks who seem to have a lot of issues...not many of which relate to intepreting text)

It's quite novel to be called irrational by one of OLO's most obvious frootloops.

Boazy: << based on media stereotypes and sensationalization...RATHER than a careful, studied, information based approach. >>

You mean, like comparing Muslims with Nazis, for example?

No "sensationalization" there, of course.

Paul.L
1.About sharia law, I do not think many people could support sharia law even between Muslims. I am sure all non Muslims will reject it. I wrote about sharia law and I will continue to write against it.
2. Freedom of expression.
We have problems with Muslims about this basic right and I do not indent to abandon it because some Muslims do not like our comments or satire.
3. Women's rights there is a huge problem in Muslim world or from Muslims about Women's rights and it has nothing to do with Sharia law, as there is sharia law only in a small number of Muslim Countries. In Australia we can not accept the violation of Muslim women's rights.
4. Religious freedom. Muslims must respect the right from any person to believe or not in any religious, to choose the religious he/she prefer, to change religious. It is unacceptable the death penalty because a Muslim change religious or become atheist.
There are something in Muslims we westerns do not like very much but I am sure many Muslims do not like them too. We the westerns have many bad too. If we want to be credible and Muslims to trust and listen us we must say the truth AND THE TRUTH IS THAT WE ARE NOT VERY HONEST, VERY FAIR, THAT WE USE DOUBLE STANDARDS!
I have Muslims friends and they are not bad at all, some times we make them radicals, we press them, we humiliate them.
WE DO NOT KNOW HOW TO BEHAVE TO MIGRANTS, HOW TO BEHAVE TO MUSLIMS. IF WE ARE FRIENDLY WITH THEM THEY WILL BE FRIENDLY WITH US TOO.
TRUST THEM, UNDERSTAND THEM, RESPECT THEM. I have huge problems with Anglo Saxon racists, the idiots created to me big problems, and really I feel confident with Muslims although I have major differences with them.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

I was thinking that the last post by Boaz was written by someone else. It indicates that a different line of thinking has been adopted by the author, whoever it is. No quotes from the Old Testament taken out of context and used to support some extreme point of view, no hate or bias.

The line quoted by CJ is one example,

"based on media stereotypes and sensationalization...RATHER than a careful, studied, information based approach."

Boaz, is it really you saying that? I've never read a post of yours promoting that line of thinking.

Dear_Ditch

when it comes to Islam, and what I present here about it, that is exactly where I'm coming from 'studied'.....

If I sound 'paranoid' to CJ (who by the way has tessstified that he has pretty much zero interest in 'obscure religious documents' including those of_Islam)- it's because OF that ignorance which he himself fessed up to.

The study and reading which my comments rest on, is valid.

Invoking Godwins law when Hitler is mentioned would be valid IF..there was NO connection between the theology of Islam and the tone of Mein Kampf.

I challenge anyone, you included, to dispute this by documentary evidence to the contrary.

The case is easily made 'for' that assertion, but I fail to see how it could be disputed thus.

If you notice..there are historic similarities between the Hezbollah rallies, the same salute.. the same 'Death to Israel/Jews' chants.. one would need to be blind deaf dumb and retarded not to see that.

If it was just some loony few we might rest better. But the theological basis is the concern.

If a Christian stated "Islamic jurisprudence has 2 forms of Jihad. the defensive AND the Offensive" the usual thing is "Oh..ur biased, ur interpreting it YOUR way to suit your purposes"

BUT..if a prominent MUSLIM says it.... then surely such criticism is no longer valid. If MANY prominent Muslims (usually they only say this in places which they control, or are trying to control) say it..then how can people like CJ reject it? (thats why I call him 'irrational')

So... you have the textual/theological basis, AND the same thing being said by the community. I can provide a truckload of living color examples if you desire.

The usual irrational response of course is:)

1/ Oh-but those people are the exception- radicals/extremists.
2/ How can you tar all Muslims with that brush?

The Muslim response usually is to quote 'abrograted' earlier 'Christian friendly' verses from the Quran.

That brings us full circle back to the Theological- "Islam"

It ends there, or just goes round a few more times until people tire.

Boaz,
Further to Paul L's Info about the Islamic situation in England.

Reported in UK Daily Mail, 2-6-2008

Two Christian preachers were handing out extracts from the bible and were told to stop and vacate the area by a community support police officer. He told them they had been warned, it is a Muslim area, and that trying to convert Muslims to christianity was a race hate offence.

Where did this take place? Birmingham, England.

Thought you both may be interested in this occurance

Hi Banjo... well pointed out. Yep..I read it separately and it was Birmingham.

You nailed the problem exactly. It would appear from the available facts that those 'community liason' officers were Muslim. There is no other reason for them to speak as they did.. secular police would know that giving out Christian literature is not a hate crime of any sort. It is indicative of the 'give them an inch, they'll take a mile' kind of mentality and it DOES show that they will, if given any licence try to establish Sharia law wherever they can. "Muslim area"? WHAT-the!

Holding up signs calling for the decapitation of people criticizing Mohammad IS hate speech of the most vile kind, and it does disturb me that some here actually defend this. They defend it by criticizing criticism OF such things.

I think we are ok here now though with the Terrorism laws, which include conduct likely to stir up hate. There is a proviso though, conduct which is likely to cause hate but which is for a political purpose, and has a goal of changing the law is exempt.

We must be clear... in WHO is criticism of certain aspects of a religion likely to stir up hate in? If it is those who wish to defend mass executions, mutilation of living prisoners, sexual abuse of children and captive women..assasinations of political or social enemies, spousal abuse then I have no regrets whatsoever about exposing them. (or those who support them)

Boazy: << We must be clear... in WHO is criticism of certain aspects of a religion likely to stir up hate in? >>

As best as I can imagine, if I was a moderate Muslim who was reading this discussion, I think I could form a sustainable view that there's more than a few idiots out there who have an antipathy towards me because of my religious beliefs. Some of them even compare my religion with Nazism.

Obviously, such remarks that Boazy makes regularly are designed to "stir up hate" among ISLAMOPHOBES.

But even MUSLIMS know IDOTS when they see them and treat them with mercy. At least, I hope they do :)

Hell, even an idot like me knows how to spell "IDIOT".

D'oh!

CJ.. the 'form' of yours is still going strong.(irrational)

*sigh*.. will_it_never_end:)

Now..what you offered was 'an' interpetation of my post. You chose to see it as 'designed to stir up hate'. Yet, you know quite well that what I'm offering is based on Islamic documents and is supported by, in fact TAKEN FROM Islamic scholars themselves who are highly respected in the wider Muslim community.

If I was 'inventing' information such as "Mohammad had a string of little 6yr old boys which he regularly has sex with" you could absolutely charge me with 'stirring up hate'.. but if I say "Mohammad had sex with a 9 yr old girl, who he 'married' when she was six, you can only say "BD is reporting facts". Now..what people DO with those facts is their business but 'hate' is not my preferred outcome.
Informed rational Political action IS!

Clearly such things as mutilating living prisoners, torture, sex with little children, etc and then, for such a man to be described as 'The best of all mankind' are, or should be a serious concern for any community irrespective of whether such values are evident IN that community 'here and now'.(in this social context)

What one must do, is look at the broad manifestations of these values in that community world wide, and see if those values are in fact manifest when such people have power. From this, if the answer is in the affirmative, then reasonably, a 'non-them' community would need to take pre-emptive action to avert such a catastrophe coming upon themselves.

The pre-emptive action should be in the form of policy change which restricts entry to this country and discourages the growth of such values by restricting the possibility of them being taught in public schools or preached.

It surely should NOT be in 'hatred' of a personal jingoistic or knee jerk nature.

Would you support a ban on Surah 9:29 and 30 and other 'anti Christian/Jew verses being preached in Australia?

How about a ban on Romans Ch 1? (yes, we are watching for that too)

kactuz,

The reason it was rejected was because it did not comply with council zoneing.
Many people who objected said they would have done so if it was a Catholic School.
I am tired of some screaming racism because they want to break the rules and bully special favours.

The rest of of us must comply with council. They should have checked with council first.

Also if the majority of people in the shire dont want it then the people have spoken.

I think ALL kids should be schooled together and the Government are creating a HUGE problem.

Then again when does the Government ever do anything else.

Australia is not a muslim country and Ausies dont want it changed.

Otherwise we will all have to go to ME and take over- same thing.

Leave us old Aussies in peace I say and go live at Chistmass Island all together at get woken up with that dreadful music and screaming at 4am.
If anyone ever turns up into my area screaming at 4am to get up a p-ray there wont be a second time.
Leave the hard working people at Camdem to sleep and live their lives.
Now I have a good relashonship with muslims but we MUST not allow this country to end up like UK. Speak ou

Boazy,

I still get the feeling you're riding your horse up and down the troop line, rousing and reminding everyone of why we need to fight. I think if someone digs deep enough into any religion, you could find enough material to scream blue murder, hypocrisy, corruption, 'innate violence', control and the list goes on.

The world has a particular problem with extremist Islam at the moment, not, I repeat not, Islam in general.

You would do well to remind us of the positive outcomes that you come across in your research. If I may suggest the following as an intro, seems how so many youtube video links have been posted on extremist Islam in the UK..

http://www.wcrp.org/files/ECRL%20statement%2002-07.pdf

The World Council for Religious Peace - now there's an idea.

Would you support a ban on Surah 9:29 and 30 and other 'anti Christian/Jew verses being preached in Australia?
B_D,
I'd support that religion gets no mention outside the home, full stop.. Why on earth can't so many people think of something more progressive than all this pointless religious stuff. There're 1000's of other fairytales, why not focus on some of them ?

pale,
You and I have had our differences on other issues but I agree with you on this, except:-

"Also if the majority of people in the shire do not want it then the people have spoken"

Wish this were so, but it is not the case. If the overwhelming opinion of the people was a valid reason for rejecting the proposal, Council would have used it. I'm afraid the wants of the community is not considered by the L&E court or by the Dept of planning/Minister.

The issue will be resolved on planning matters only.

Hi John...I love your 'BraveHeart' Imagery there!

The bloke down the end of our lane has some draft horses, I've sometimes wondered what a pic of me sitting on one might look like - Trouble is, I was 'traumatized' by a Shetland pony as a kid, and most likely the only thing viewers would see on my face would be 'terror':)

If I may.. please have a look at the new article on OLO by Sandanand Dhume "The Pardox of Muslim Weakness" and if you have a spare moment, check out his web site.

http://www.sadananddhume.com/

He asks the question:

"how does a society go from broad inclusiveness to shrill intolerance in the space of a generation?"

Referring to Indonesia.

How I would love to 'find something positive' in things like 'Interfaith' events. Actually I can.. just like the 'interfaith' meeting between myself and Fellow Human a muslim contributor to this forum. We had many stouches and passionate discussions over the years on OLO, then he was in Melbourne and we hooked up and had a chat.
The differences were not resolved but we had great fellowship :)

So.. socially, interfaith things are fine. The challenge though is the influence on the moderate community from within the broader Muslim population, such as highlighted by Dhume.

For me, the political outcome I'd like to see is something reflecting an understanding of things like the Kalifah conference.
I don't think some of our leaders 'get' where Hizb are heading.

It's also the reason I shared that youtube link of the radical in London berating the community from the car telling them how to vote.

In a sense I'm a bit of a lame duck in my 'crusade' to rally the troops..My only solution to all the worlds and peoples ills is a personal relationship with Christ through repentance and forgiveness. Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world" so.. while I might yap a lot, my true faith is not in political outcomes, but spiritual enlightenment and participation in a loving community of faith.(interdenominational by the way)

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming
"If anyone ever turns up into my area screaming at 4am to get up a p-ray there wont be a second time."
What do you mean "wont be a second time"? The religious freedom is a fundamental right on our planet, one of the basic human rights.
PALE woke up, we live in 21st century!
We must control our mouth and know from where to start and where to stop.
Do not bring your self in difficult position.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Antonios,

The call to prayer is not allowed in the majority of suburban areas due to noise pollution restrictions. They need to control their mouths too you see. It's the law

Ditch
If it is the law, then it is the law!Instead to threaten she could tell that this is illegal. I did not know about it. and I never heard any Muslim to pray.
Some times it is important not only what we say but how we say it.
PALE used to seem hard even when she is really soft and friendly.
Thanks for your info

I'm having doubts over the accuracy of what I said is law. I'll do some checking.

Boazy: << In a sense I'm a bit of a lame duck in my 'crusade' to rally the troops.. >>

You said it. I sincerely hope you maintain the intellectual quality of your perpetual crusade. Every post you make here helps to demonstrate the lunacy of Islamophobia.

We've already demonstrated here that Boazy hasn't actually brought anybody who will admit to it closer to Jesus - I'll bet that he's had a similar success rate with Islamophobia. Anybody who'd take his tripe seriously would have to be off the rails already.

Let's see - hands up everybody who wasn't already Islamophobic who has been alerted and alarmed by Boazy to the dastardly evils of Islam?

Ditch
I tried to found what happened in America or Europe, including UK with the "call to prayer" and I found that we can not stop it!
There is a point "not messages into my private space" but then we must stop the Cristian bells too.
We accept or ban both of them.
The UK is full of Mosques and people used the "call to prayer".
According to a recent study conducted by the U.N., two-thirds of British citizenry claim no religious affiliation.

Ditch do not worry I am atheist too

I'd be very interested to see how things would develop in Sydney with their early morning yells up against the local objections.

There is usually some avenue for channelling one's objections in a powerful manner if the cause has sufficient support. For any cause, not just noise pollution.

Ditch
"against the local objections"
The freedom for religious is protected by the international law, which is stronger from the state or federal law. The government or any other Australian body could block the "call to prayer" only if the Australian government inform the UN that Australia will not respect any more the human rights!
NO ONE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT COULD DO THAT. Some noisy people, may be press local councils or low level government authorities to block the "call to prayer" but finally the court will follows the law and it will give to Muslims their rights.
"local objections" can not create new law.
In worst case for Australia, local fanatics could create an other political organization on the right of the One Nation.
Already there are many small groups on the extreme right and one more or less can not make any differences.
The new anti-terrorist law is not only for Muslim extremist but for local extremists too!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

I'm amazed that that is the case Antonius. And all in the name of religion and International Law. So the religious minority get their way over the non religious majority. It's absurd! The law is an ass.

There are 1.2 million Christians in Saudia Arabia, nearly a million of them Catholics. Most are migrant workers and are not allowed to practice their faith in public or wear signs of their faith.

this was in a news article this morning. Why do they make such a fuss when Camden didn't want that school. Any reason why Camden residents' attitudes should be viewed different to the Saudis' ?

individual,
Because we are not Saudis! BUT We must stop supporting them! They violate the human rights with one million ways. Read their records on humans violent in the Human Rights Commission of UN.
individual,
To be civilized it costs! Are not you ready to pay the cost for our civilization? I AM!
I wrote about them in other thread, last days.

To be civilized it costs!
ASymeonakis,
Don't I know that only too well. Even here on these threads I have been accused with all sorts of unkind descriptions. Being civilized & therefore caring & responsible goes against the grain of the religious fanatics who will not accept/understand that a wheel can't possibly turn smoothly with only one spoke.

Antonias and Ditch,
Thought you may be interestd!

A news item today stated that Iran just executed a 17 year old boy which is against UN covernants, to which Iran is party to.

Human rights groups have condemened Iran for this but as yet no response from UN. Doubt if Iran will lose membership of UN.

So what is to stop us from stoping early morning calls to prayer?

Do UN rules only apply to some? Just who is going to compell us to obey or take any action that our citizens require?

Iran executes a 17 year old! Oh that's charming isn't it. Bought to you by the same country that wants Israel wiped out.

I don't know what's to stop us preventing the call to prayer. I'm not sure of Antonius's references for that but I'm not surprised that it is protected by some international law, as he has said. Just the same, I have read of the Brits and French and their laws re the head scarf. A country has it's right to enforce it's own laws rightly or wrongly and who's going to do anything about it. In a democracy the majority's will wins the day most of the time

"Iran is one of the only countries left in the world today that still executes children and child offenders (those accused of committing an offense when they were under eighteen years of age). Currently, there are at least 84 known juvenile offenders awaiting execution in Iran, but the total number could be much higher. Many of those scheduled to be executed were convicted in flawed legal proceedings."

From here: http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-priorities/death-penalty/page.do?id=1011005&n1=3&n2=28

This business with Muslims reminds me of a group of factories, where I worked when I first came to Australia. At the factory managers quarterly meeting one of the personnel manager wallies did a presentation and went off like a pork chop about being sensitive to the expectations of migrants. Caring not to put Serbs next to Croats etc.

He asked the attending factory managers, the blokes who actually made the business happen, what their experiences were and they all said they had had no problems and the local migrants seemed to get on well except for two factory managers

The first was where the HR wally was based and they had had all sorts of problems since the “cultural awareness” of the workforce had been brought up (by the HR wally).

The other was the bloke from Tasmania who said they never had any cross-cultural problems because he would never employ the foreign bastards.

The moral of this very true story

Don’t promote or highlight peoples differences.

Expect the migrant to accommodate and fit in with the ways of the majority or find somewhere else to live, not the other way around.

(if anyone has any doubt, I too am a migrant).

I don't think we should expect all immigrants to change and fully assimilate. It's asking a lot and too much from certain cultures that differ significantly from our own. What I object to though is the apparent deliberate lack of acceptance of and even hostility demostrated by some migrants towards the culture that they find themselves in after leaving their own behind. There appears to be a deliberate resistance to assimilation, which is completely different from the lack of a strong attempt to assimilate.

And for me, that behaviour and attitude is what is responsible for the degree of hostility directed towards some migrant groups.

Banjo
"So what is to stop us from stoping early morning calls to prayer?
Do UN rules only apply to some?"
Banjo We are European , we are civilized people, we put the standards, we put the measure enough high, according to our values.
NO ONE CAN STOP US EXCEPT FROM OUR SELF, FROM OUR VALUES WHICH COME FROM OUR HIGH CIVILIZATION!
Banjo
Our big problem is that we are a small in population country in an area with billions of people and with totally different civilization.
We have two choices
1. we accept that sooner or later we will disappeared and simple we wait when will start the free trade and free movement or
2. We become member from European Union where we really belong.
Personally I want to see the Australia as member from European Union.
But forget me, may be I am the only one in this country.
THAT IS ME! I DID NOT PRESS ANYONE TO AGREE WITH ME! MY PERSONAL VIEW!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

antonios,
Well you have now changed your tune. In relation to early morning calls to prayer, you have said we cannot stop it-- it is international law which is stronger than state or federal law--- no one Australian government could do that.

Now you are saying that we are civilized people and subject to our own values. The facts are that international law is a farce and UN is laughable. We can stop early morning calls to prayer and stop loud music from annoying neighbors at any religious gathering if we so desire. We are a sovereign nation and can do as WE determine. Just like Iran, Zimbarbwe, China or USA.

In any case, I read once that many of the UN conventions that were agreed to by our political representatives are not valid because they have not been passed by Parliament or referendum. Looks like our reps were big noting themselves and bluffing us with bulldust.

Er, could somebody please point me to the UN Convention that says that Muslim early morning prayer calls are not subject to local laws?

I imagine that in Australia they would be subject to noise and public nuisance laws and regulation, in much the same way that way that lawnmowers, amplified music and, indeed, church bells are.

Banjo
There is no international police to press you to follow the international law, the countries which sing it they undertake the responsibility to respect it. In west countries, in civilized countries the courts, and police respect and follow it.
If there are limits to church bells then we can put limits on the prayer calls too,
Banjo simple we can not discriminate against any religious
NO DISCRIMINATION AND FREEDOM FROM RELIGIOUS.
We are civilized country, civilized people we can not use the Saudi Arabia as an example to do the same. Even if the law did not exist we had to respect their rights and try to create the law to protect their rights. WE ARE PIONEER ON HUMAN RIGHTS, AS OUR EUROPEAN BROTHERS.
BE PROUD FOR IT AND PROTECT AND DEFEND OUR CIVILIZATION, USING TOOLS FROM AND ACCORDING TO OUR CIVILIZATION!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

CJ says:

"I imagine that in Australia they would be subject to noise and public nuisance laws and regulation,"

Interesting point. It depends a lot on which laws are applicable to this kind of behavior.

If its local council laws but not state or federal....then the experience of Hamtramck USA is informative and educational.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3358067/detail.html

After a ceremony at the Al-Islah Islamic Center -- attended by the city's mayor, members of City Council and a priest from nearby St. Stanislav Catholic Church -- the key to the amplifier was issued and Hamtramck's first call to prayer was chanted into a microphone and broadcast over loud speakers atop the mosque building.

In the Islamic faith, there are five calls to prayer, but in Hamtramck, only those at 1:35 p.m., 7 p.m. and 9:05 p.m. will be broadcast, according to the station's reports. The 5:30 a.m. and 10:30 p.m. prayers will be withheld.

POINTS TO NOTE.
1/ The noise ordinance had to be 'amended' first.
2/ There are minor limitations on which calls can be broadcast. (early and late are verboten, but the mosque applied for all 5)

MY COMMENT. I would be quite happy for a total ban on any public expression of religion which cannot reasonably be avoided. This includes Church bells.

The 'bells' just say "time to pray/worship" The Islamic call is not just to prayer it is an evangelistic/da'wa call to Islam! There is a heck of a difference.
It includes actual words which are insulting to Christians.

Note this also: "The mosque is located across the street from St. Ladislaus Catholic Church"!

Joanne Golan 68, resident.
"My main objection is simple," she said. "I don't want to be told that Allah is the true and only God five times a day, 365 days a year. It's against my constitutional rights to have to listen to another religion evangelize in my ear."

Boazy: << "...It's against my constitutional rights to have to listen to another religion evangelize in my ear" >>

Ah, if only that was the case in Australia too! And not just restricted to aural evangelism. Can anybody imagine a forum such as this where "evangelism" by anybody was against the rule?

Bliss!

antonios,
I now appreciate that you have a problem with english language.

You say; ..we can not discriminate against religous. When I think you mean .. we DO not discriminate.... because of our values.

That little word puts an entirely different meaning on what you say and if that is so, I agree with you.

I do not agree with you about joining the EEC, or any other trading block, but that is a different subject and best left to another thread.

Banjo
"you have a problem with english language"
In really I have a huge problem with my English, plus very limit free time. I had to write with my poor English or not to write at all. I choose to write although I know that I make many mistakes! SORRY.
Europe is not simple a trading block, it is the defender and developer of European civilization.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide