Dickie’s post kind of makes my point. No doubt Singer’s book has been on
her bookshelf :)

Dickie of course knows nothing about livestock, as is common amongst the veggie
brigade. Dickie focuses her little beady eyes on 40’000 sheep, forgetting that
4 million got there just fine, which people who know about livestock will tell her,
are extremely good figures. After all, around 4 million sheep die a year out in our
paddocks, a few million lambs die in NZ, when they have a cold snap at lambing.

People who have run livestock, know that there will be losses for all sorts of reasons.
Dicky, with no experience, still does not understand that. The other day the bloke
who is teaching low stress stock handling mentioned an Australian meatworks losing
100 lambs a week. That’s 5200 a year, in just one meatworks!

Dickie is correct, the Hajj festival in Saudi Arabia is a major market for Australian
lambs. Who buys the overwhelming majority of our lambs? The Saudi Govt does.
For they have around 2 million pilgrims turn up in Mecca, whose religious duty it is to sacrifice a lamb each.

To deal with this deluge, the Saudi Govt has built huge meatworks in Mecca. Pilgrims pay around 160$ a head for their lamb, at a payment centre. When the
lamb is slaughtered, the pilgrim is rung and the slaughter confirmed, with the
majority of the meat being given to the poor, as is their religious duty. That is where
by far the majority of our lambs land up, the details are to be read on Arab News,
available on line these days, as they happen.

Now Dickie is clearly either ignorant of the facts or is trying to distort the truth, with
her regular googling. So she posts a link to a website showing some ritual slaughter
in some place, not an Australian animal in sight anywhere! She does not claim
that this is what happens to most Australian animals, but certainly implies that.

As we can see, the truth is distorted yet once again, which is my-point-exactly.

Yabby

In your arrogant anthropocentric world view animals exist purely for humans to exploit and profit from. Some of us actually value the life of an animal and don't feel comfortable that it should suffer to improve the bottom line of someone's business, especially when there are other alternatives available.

None of your so-called facts regarding live export convince me that these animals are not suffering in cramped and inhumane conditions. Forty thousand dead and diseased animals thrown overboard sounds like a lot of suffering to me.

"RSPCA Scientific Officer Melina Tensen said the footage of appalling handling and slaughter of Australian sheep, filmed in 09/07 and aired on ABC’s The 7:30 Report, provided irrefutable proof the live export trade subjects Australian animals to cruel and barbaric treatment, and must be stopped.

“This is at least the third time such footage has been filmed in the ME - proving beyond doubt that this intolerable cruelty continues unabated despite the presence of Australian industry representatives in the region.

“These are absolutely not isolated incidents, they are the same locations and the same practices that have not improved at all despite assurances and huge investment from the industry and the Australian Government to justify their trade,

“This horrifying treatment of Australian animals has not changed and will not change as long as the Australian Government and live export industry effectively condone these practices by sending more and more animals to meet this fate,” said Ms Tensen.

"The footage shows extremely distressed Australian sheep panting and stumbling as they are crowded together in suffocating humidity where temperatures regularly exceed 40C. They are then dragged and thrown from the truck onto concrete before their final extended and painful slaughter by a primitive method that would be prosecutable in Australia.

"The scenes of deliberate mistreatment and horrific slaughter of a bull offer little hope for Australian cattle of which more than 100,000 are exported live to the Middle East each year. Local transporters, handlers and slaughtermen allowed these atrocious practices to be filmed openly, demonstrating an alarming lack of concern or awareness of the impact of their actions.

"Ms Tensen said the Australian Government’s commitment to animal welfare is merely a token gesture, evidenced by its continued support for those profiting from this miserable trade,

"The RSPCA opposes live export because it is inherently cruel. The live trade is unnecessary because all major export markets for live animals already accept chilled and frozen meat from Australia that has been humanely slaughtered according to religious and other requirements."

Fact: Permission to slaughter animals anywhere in Saudi Arabia and the ME is not required.

“RSPCA Australia scientific officer Melina Tensen said many birds died because of overstocking, poor
ventilation or poor shed design and little consideration was given to the welfare of individual
birds during collection, crating, transport and slaughtering.”

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=54227

A question of the pot calling the kettle black eh Dickie. Right here under your
nose, eaten by Australian consumers every day.

Cruelty to animals happens in the ME, it happens in Australia. That is exactly
why Australian farmers are spending millions on animal welfare in the ME,
unlike so called welfare groups. We are not as defeatist as you are. That is
exactly what Peter Dundon highlights. AA only film bad stuff, they ignore
the good stuff happening there.

Bromwyn, you don’t know what my worldview is. I have been openly critical
of factory farming of pigs and chickens btw. There is no good reason why
livestock and humans cannot benefit from win-win situations, as many do.

If I worked in an office and knew as little as you and Dickie seem to know about
livestock, I too might say that 40’000 compared to 4 million is excessive. But
30 years of experience has taught me otherwise, agreed by many experts
in the field. Ruminants, in particular sheep, are affected by a host of diseases,
be that in the paddocks of Australia, or on a boat or floating feedlot. Ask a vet
qualified and experienced in the field of livestock production. Even PF has her
share of paddock deaths.

If sheep were suffering they would be stressed, their meat would cut dark and
you can measure that stress level. No evidence of that sorry. In stead they gain
weight.

I don’t need to convince you of anything Bromwyn, as livestock is clearly not
your field, so your opinion is really not important IMHO. Rather the opinions
of qualified vets are important. I certainly don’t believe a heap of ideologues,
whose objectivity I have not seen anywhere as yet.

Yes farming is a business, many things have to be weighed but we need to
deal with facts, based on information from qualified people.

Nicky and dickie

I agree with your comments and need no convincing about live animal exports. Nicky I see what you mean about insults - the last time someone called me 'dear' was my mother when I'd been naughty (quite some time ago now). :)

Yabby you said: "BTW, where did you get your information that the trade is cruel? I remind you that conditions on most boats are far better then in most Qld cattle feedlots. Boats are simply floating feedlots. So why is it ok to keep cattle in a feedlot, but not on a boat, under better conditions?"

Yabby are you for real? Blind freddy can see this trade is cruel. Comparing boats to intensive feedlots is like comparing Hitler with Atila the Hun. Both are bad. I never stated that it is ok to keep cattle in feedlots.

If you remember from another thread a while back I stated I don't eat a lot of meat and only buy organic meat that is pasture fed. If I happen to go to another butcher instead of my usual one I always ask if the meat is grain or grass fed. Just like I won't buy eggs unless they are free range (soon to have my own chooks btw) :).

Yabby this thread was primarily about political interference in the judicial process.

Out of interest Yabby what do you think about this sort of interference in the Courts? Do you think it is acceptable and what might be the constitutional implications?

*Yabby are you for real?*

Yup, here I am :)

*Blind freddy can see this trade is cruel.*

Blind freddy is blind, so he can’t see a bleeding thing, sadly. So where
is the evidence? Did they forget to teach you basic reasoning at school btw?

*Both are bad. I never stated that it is ok to
keep cattle in feedlots.*

So why discriminate against WA sheep farmers? Where is the ongoing
campaign against feedlots? Our animals do in fact live mostly free range lives,
unlike the chicken and pork which most consumers buy, when they go shopping.

*Nicky I see what you
mean about insults - the last time someone called me 'dear' was my mother when I'd been naughty*

What a typically female response! Far more concerned with how things are said then the substance of the arguments. I could have predicted that.

*Out of interest Yabby what do you think about this sort of interference in the Courts?*

Why should the courts be used by AA, as a vehicle to have the live sheep trade banned, at huge expense to farmers and taxpayers? Will AA now pay compensation
to the Farmers Fighting Fund for their legal costs, given that they have lost the case?

I repeat, anyone is free to buy those sheep and slaughter them right here in Australia.

Just don’t tell farmers that they are meant to operate as businesses and make market
based decisions, then when they do, you want to deny them access to global markets,
based on your particular weird philosophies. If you think that farming should operate
as a charity, then say so, we will put in for our claims, accordingly. Singer’s philosophy states that sentient beings should not suffer. Yet here is a clear case
of ideologues ignoring that farmers too are sentient beings