mjpb,

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

I don't think anyone would care much about the belief systems of others if it were not for the continued proselytising. If Christians instead merely practised what they preached the world could be a wonderful place.

On these threads, however, the most vociferous Christian is one who portrays all the common human faults and vices, and whose views hurt and wound others. His interjections into so many threads exhorting others to follow a path he himself does not tread, rankles.

Yet the exclusionary Christian code dictates that even if one is hurtful, intolerant, bigoted, unkind, mean and objectionable, one is ticked "good" and rewarded in the afterlife. It is little wonder that others who consciously try to live good, decent and moral lives, and never purposely to hurt others or cause pain, object to being regarded as "bad".

As you said, it is a pointless exercise continually to throw scripture at those who have clearly and plainly stated that they do not view scripture, any scripture, as the inviolate word of a god. The underlying assumption that those who do not believe in scripture are ignorant of it thus becomes irritating.

Many people have explained that they have studied these matters extensively(at least enough to know that none of the gospels were written by eye-witnesses!)and others that they have had religious upbringings they later rejected. Such matters are not undertaken lightly. People who have struggled and questioned and sought for answers quite naturally object to having these genuine searches for truth dismissed in such as way as to infer that they have never given much thought to esoteric matters.

There has been one poster on this forum who did a lot to heal the breeches between believers and non-believers. She displayed all the attributes of forbearance, non-judgmentalism, kindness and charity that is supposed to set Christians apart from others by good example. Yet she was patronised, dismissed, and judged wanting by one who considered themselves a "better" Christian!

No wonder the non-believers get antsy at times.

Ladies and gentlemen,

An awesome opportunity may present itself.

For those who don't know, to say that CJ and I haven't been the best of buddies is hugely an understatement. Thus when CJ finds the courage to reach out like that it is hard to ignore and something important must be involved. For the record I also think that it is the first time in here an atheist said a Christian has hit a nail on the head but I could be mistaken.

In this thread I saw Christians hurt and I saw some aspects of our belief system misunderstood. What the recent posts seem to indicate is a raw hurt that atheists in here want to express. To me that suggests misunderstandings and hurt going both ways.

To me this is a bridge however tenuous that could allow a fundamental change in the way in which people in here generally interact. To determine whether this be of any consequence I need to ascertain whether people in here share my perception and whether a mutually respectful dialogue and an end to the wounding is something considered desirable or whether you prefer a brawl and are prepared to take a few hits if it means getting a few in. Your feedback regarding this opportunity would be appreciated.

If there is some type of consensus to develop this I have some ideas. That is, if people in here, while acknowledging that most people won't necessarily convert from Christianity to Atheism or vice versa, want to work for a climate of mutual respect, tolerance and understanding I may be able to contribute some tools.

This whole thing has been a long term conflict. Often in situations of long term conflict a useful tool is to avoid interpreting the comments of people you disagree with. The aim is to defuse the angst in the situation. Quite often angst is triggered by misinterpretations so it isn't necessarily intellectually dishonest.

I do have some other ideas but are we agreed on the fundamentals of this approach or am I alone in wanting this direction?

"Often in situations of long term conflict a useful tool is to avoid interpreting the comments of people you disagree with."

What I mean is take them literally rather than reading in something negative that you think they mean.

Throughout the world and human history two radically different ideas concerning humanity and natural phenomena has developed; the scientific and the religious.

Science concerns itself with understanding the world/universe. Religion seeks to control human behaviour by imposing dogma that was written centuries ago.

Science learns; religion repeats.

However, I wouldn’t have a problem with religion if not for the following:

Imposing religion over scientific inquiry in schools , for example I.D. taught as a valid theory (this includes outright lies like Christians inventing science).
Receiving special treatment from government in the form of tax exemptions.
Denying women contraception and education in third world countries.
Causing the death of thousands of innocents; be it through a jihad or crusade.
Prejudice towards homosexuals, women and other religious people who don’t share the same religious beliefs as whoever is doing the discriminating!

This thread was intended as a discussion comparing the infinite possibilities of scientific inquiry to the limitations that are the result of religious dogma.

I have stated in previous threads that I used to be a Christian. I have a very good understanding of this religion. The most I can say in its favour is that it is not as bad as Islam. But it shares the same ancestry and desire for control over people’s minds and aspirations.

Formal religion is dogma; an impediment for humans to progress to any form of enlightenment.

It is not about developing the human potential for spirituality, it is about mind control.

To the intelligent and curious mind religious dogma is a form of death.

I apologise for my lack of attention to these pages as I have been ill.

I know that there is a lot that science cannot (as yet) explain, but that doesn't excuse filling the gap with a god - especially the god of the Abrahamic religions. And it doesn't excuse the constant proselytising.

What I find truly chilling is the hate that streams from the keyboards of the most vociferous of the christian posters to OLO. It is utterly vile and unnecessary. Religious you may well be - spiritually enlightened you are not.

However, it does prove my point regarding religious dogma. So, thanks for all the help guys, couldn't have done it without you.

Your are welcome Fractelle although I missed it.

Anyways sorry to try that in the forum that you started particularly with the title it has. It was out of place. I got a little carried away because of what happened. I won't push it any farther. I will however admit that I don't believe that I am continually proselytsing and don't believe that I need an excuse for having a different opinion and will stick to my God belief. That admission is for the purpose of honesty not antagonism.

I am wondering why you think I am not curious and don't like to be called unintelligent but am prepared to accept your opinion on that without necessarily agreeing. Can I assume that you have a curious and intelligent mind? You seem to imply that without saying it explicitly so I'm just wondering?

Ciao