It's interesting how the Middle East has produced three dictatorial fascist gods whereas the Greeks had fun-loving gods who enjoyed a glass of plonk, a fight now and again and periodically came down to formicate with us randy humans. The Romans had an equally democratic set-up, one which meant that no one god could really take over and cause the same misery that the Middle Eastern gods have done, and indeed even a human being could be elected as a god, if he became senior enough in society. I like that religion.

Boazy "Why should believing in the Creator stifle scientific enquiry" - have you read any of runner's posts lately?

If so your question appears to have been answered.

If not possibly because scientific enquiry has a habit of coming to answers that believers in creators find uncomfortable. Be it runners refusal to accept that evolution is the most consistant explaination we have for how we came to being or his refusal to consider the possibility that research which shows the harm done by smacking children could be valid runner demonstrates the fear many of those who believe in a creator hold of serious scientific enquiry.

Perhaps you could set him straight and show the rest of us that you don't share his views.

R0bert

Romany, I was gonna say the ‘doing my head in’ thing, too : )

Fractelle, I find science amazingly inspirational because it can show us the incredible beauty of everything around us that we usually take for granted or do not even notice. Science can make us stop to smell the roses.

Not only are we part of this massive universe right here and now; we will always remain part of it, we will never leave this space and never-ending time because our atoms will, forever and ever, keep taking on life form after life form. A part of you and me and us and Boaz and Fractelle may one day assemble one and the same life form or be the dust for a new star.
There’s unlimited time and space and science can give us glimpses of what’s there and stretch our mind and make us want to discover always more because the beauty of reality feeds our spirit.

Science shows us the overwhelming massive and the minute, too.
Science shows us the most intelligent art; for example, our DNA- a work of art that we can frame!
Captures of subatomic particles seemingly disappearing into nothingness are just as mesmerising as the whole.
Holograms- parts of things containing the whole- science has no end.

Realising that all this is not imagination but reality and that there’s more of it, much more to discover, to explore, to stare at, to play with and to share (there it is!) does my head in, too.

The idea of an imaginary, supernatural being fades in the spotlight that science shines on the reality, which is part of us and which connects us all.

Hi Vanilla, Fraccy 'and gang' :)

hmmm.. I better not say any more because you already 'know' what's coming..right ?

Nah..cannot resist.

"what completely gobsmacks me is how anyone can be a Christian and still be a competent or learned scholar of Ancient History."

Well golly gosh :) we have a world class Archeologist in our own fellowship.

<<The Sumerian King List found at Kish talked about kings who lived between 10,000 and 64,000 years each. Interestingly, it has now been shown that these figures are probably mistranslated. When a system based on sixties replaces the decimal system translators had utilized, the total is remarkably close to the biblical total.>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_king_list

We read from that Article a number of kings.. and then... from the 'artifact'/list.. we find this:

"Then the flood swept over."

Excavations in Iraq have shown evidence of a flood at Shuruppak and other Sumerian cities: a layer of riverine sediment interrupting the continuity of settlement, which was radiocarbon dated to about 2900 BC,[1] and which extended as far north as the city of Kish. Polychrome pottery from the Jemdet Nasr Period (3000-2900 BCE) was found immediately below the Shuruppak flood layer.

COMMENT:

TWO things stand out.

1/ "Long living kings" (pre flood)
2/ "a FLOOD"

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...now watch it.. this is getting 'dannngerously' close to .. wait for it.. hold on.. the BIBLICAL account of things:)

But why woffle on.... don't let a few facts get in the way of a highpowered confident atheism. Besides..youz know it all right?

I still do not get how anyone can be 'inspired' by the grandure of a universe which just 'is'...but was not made.

"I still do not get how anyone can be 'inspired' by the grandure of a universe which just 'is'...but was not made."

I've got a theory about this and why people are Christians in general.

Christian people commonly defend their faith by saying things along the lines of what Boazy said above, and also that they don't understand who atheist could have any morality or ethical standards without god. Or, in other words, a godless universe is meaningless.

One frequently hears them say that, without Christianity, the world would descend into anarchy. They ask, "What's to stop us from taking to the streets? From raping and pillaging?"

On the other hand, we know that atheists do manage to feel inspired by the grandeur of the universe which just "is". The least religious countries, including Australia, have the highest levels of health and are the least violent. Quoting someone else: "Japan (the most atheistic nation in the G-8) has the lowest murder rate while the United States (the most Christian nation in the G-8) has the highest. Japan used to have much stronger religious faith, and a state religion, and guess what: Japan was remarkably aggressive and militaristic when "Shinto" was at its peak, and during WW2, when its Emperor was regarded as a God." In the US, the largely Chrisitian southern and midwestern states have a higher per capita crime rate than the largely atheist northern states. In fact, Louisiana, with America's highest church attendance rate, has twice the national average murder rate.

Maybe Christians are Christians because they have to be. Maybe they are simply more violent as people, so they've sought a framework to keep themselves in check. Because they haven't got an internal moral compass, so they have a deep, primal hunger for an external one. Because, if they abandoned their faith, they actually *would* take to the streets, raping and pillaging. Because they are like Boazy - they *literally* do not get how the universe is inspiring.

Thoughts?

Nice theory Vanilla, which actually has some grounding in the real world, as opposed to the 'only religious have morality.'

-

Boaz, this quote amused me: "Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...now watch it.. this is getting 'dannngerously' close to .. wait for it.. hold on.. the BIBLICAL account of things:)"

Read the history a little closer, and you find a tale of a merchant barge vessel that was swept out to see during a period when two flooding events coincided.

As I see it, there are two possibilities:

1) An eccentric old fellow heard voices and decided to get two of every single animal on the whole planet together on a single barge (golly, what would you feed them?), while the entire planet was hit by floods.

2) A sumerian merchant was washed out to sea and some creative biblical type spun a myth from it.

Literalist bible bashers opt for 1), putting aside evidence, common sense, and the laws of physics.

Sensible people with a scrap of reasoning power that isn't governed by pre existing dogma, I think, would opt for number 2).