Steven, and Foxy, and Vanilla,

Thank you for your kind words.

I am unfamiliar with the Koran. What you have cited, Steven, is chilling. I also wonder to what extent accretions of old tribal mores - often extremely savage - have become attached to, and practiced within its “name”.

Many Iranian Muslims - intellectuals and dissidents - protest against the Islamic penal code in their country; a code with admits, among other horrors, the execution of 9 year old little girls. In the past year, two such children were publicly executed. These dissidents have appealed to the UN to have Iran expelled from this body until such time as such barbaric laws are changed - indeed secular law is introduced. As Arab countries are amongst the most influential members of the UN, are among the most wealthiest countries in the world, and also among those with the lowest literacy rate, such appeals fall on deaf ears. These dissidents also appeal to human rights bodies, and others - again with little success. Their site, on which appear many petitions, is:
www.activistchat.com/

These Iranians are currently, desparately petitioning against Iran having nuclear capability; they support Israel’s right to exist. As many are Muslim, I wonder if they see the Koran engraved in granite, and not subject to re-evaluation as has been seen with Christianity.

Christianity’s history is also marked with barbarity - converting the infidel at the end of a sword, then immediately despatching them in case they recant. However, Christianity has gone through the Reformation, the Counter Reformation and also the Englightenment. Christianity also had accretions of pagan beliefs attached. In Gothic cathedrals in England, bosses are very evident along the ceilings; as are gargoyles - many of which are downright obscene. These elements are of pagan gods, which the Church permitted so as to make their Christian faithful feel at home. Chartres cathedral is built on the site of a Roman temple, the goddess, an ebony figure, was re-assigned as the Black Madonna.

cont ...

I have yet to see any passage in the Koran, which mentions wearing
a Burqa. IMHO thats more an Arab cultural thinggy, of some Arab
males being paranoid about some other guys wanting to sleep with
their wives.

By what we could see of the two female fanatics, being covered up by
a Burqa might not be such a bad thing. They might well just be kidding themselves that males might really find them hugely attractive.

Covering up under a Burqa means not having to compete with other
females. Easier just to live the fantasy and not deal with the
real world

Danielle wrote;
Obviously all Muslims don’t take the Koran literally - certainly many
Iranian Muslims look at the Koran quite differently than other groups.
Malay Muslims of years ago were nothing like what we see today. I don’t know about Arab Muslims.
unquote
The differences between the different groups is so large and fundermental
that it will be many, perhaps hundreds of years before they remove the
offensive passages from the Koran. However I think there is absolute
ban on altering any wording of the Koran.

Can we afford to wait that long and why should we be bothered.
Ultimately it is their problem not ours.
I believe we should just hold them at arms length until they decide
to join the rest of the world.

Personally, I'm sick of religion. it's got nothing to do with any supreme being. it always has been & will be for a long time yet a tool to control not the unbelievers but the unthinking. Sad thing is it works. christians push their goody goody hypocrisy. others push their hypocritical agenda. What is life all about ? is it to just live as long as you can or should you do as much as you can ? what is the right way to live your life ? I haven't a clue. All I am trying to to is to live my existence without harming anyone else & try to have some sort of a good time doing it. Do I really need some religious egotist high priest or whatever these mutts call themselves to live my life ? I really don't think so. I know sfa about those religious brainwashing handbooks but I have read the 10 commandments and I think that "thou shall not kill' is not interpreted correctly. I think it should be "thou shall not murder" and that's one hell of a difference. If some moron threatens my life then I should be entitled to return the favour. Bible, Koran, Buddha whatever are a waste of paper if we're not allowed to defend ourselves. Well, that's my view. that should invite some interesting comments. c'mon let's have it.

I'll let you have it individual. (Good to see you have lived up to your tag!)

I endorse completely what you say. I feel so strongly about this thread that I am holding off at present, and doing some research.
But "I'll be back"!

Just wanted to give some support to.., individual...thinking!

GINXY..... while you are doing some 'research'...I offer you a very serious challenge...

STUDY Surah 9

a) Historical Context (see Maududi referred to below)
b) Relevance for today (ditto)
c) pay particular attention to verse 29 and 30 (29: fight unbelievers so Allah rules 30 "May Allah destroy/Allahs curse on, Christians and Jews")

Steven is still using verses which when taken in correct literary and historical context (although volatile and warlike) cannot actually be construed to apply to today and for all time. verse 29 and 30 can.

d)"Why" can verse 30 be applied to today? What internal evidence is there to support this ? Is there any evidence in either the verses themselves or externally (wider Quran) to oppose such an understanding.

For added research material, you should at least read the following.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/053.sbt.html

scroll to number 386 and look very closely at what Al Mughira says to the Persians. (who ask why the Arabs are invading them)

Then..follow this link
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/001.smt.html

scroll down to the major heading..."Chapter 9" (that alone makes interesting reading)

then read the following hadiths (just under that heading)

Book 1 numbers 29 30 31 32

Then...see this 'tafsir' of Maududi
http://www.tafheem.net/main.html
1/ Scroll on left side bar to '9 Al-Taubah. navigate by clicking 'next' until verse 29 is displayed with his explanation or.. click on the [25-29] section in the heading..and read.. and learn.. how 29 is applied.

and see what conclusions you draw.

I have a very high confidence level, that you will emerge from this in agreement with me :) and I assure you, I won't indulge in any triumphalism when you do.(but you will hear a sigh of relief)

I urge ALL readers to take the trouble to follow these links, it will wipe away most of the fuzzy thinking and myths which are trotted out by the uninformed. (and I mean..UNinformed) Periles..CJ...this means YOU Blokes also.