RSPCA have taken on MLA Meat Livestock Australia in what can only be described as a 'beef up' which has run over many years.

Despite 60 minutes exposing the barbaric unnessary cruelty of the live animal trade MLA Meat and live Stock Australia are so arrogant they think if they keep denying it they can bully everybody including RSPCA.

There have been several challanges to the leader ship of RSPCA over the years but RSPCA now more than ever requires public support against this gaint company that are riddled with conflicts of interest.

Here is the test for Kevin Rudd and all eyes will be on him to see if he does the right thing and fully supports RSPCA.

The Australian public and especially Animal lovers were stunned by the back flip after the ABC Land Line by Kevin Rudd. Pre Elections promises by ALP saw Kerry Obrien declairing he had received (quote) more letters from the Australian public demanding the cruel live animal trade was replaced by chilled meats than any other issue.

AS for MLA as a tax payers we say pull your horns in and let the RSPCA do their job. You have NO RIGHT to try to bully this organisation and MLA are the last people that should be heard given their conflict of Interest working within the live export industry.

Nor should AWB who are also live animal exporters which was kept a secret throughout the AWB Enquiry.

Anybody who wishes to support RSPCA to stand up to the monster bullys should write to the address below The Hon Kevin Rudd and editors of newspapers.

The Hon Kevin Rudd MP
Prime Minister
Parliament House
CANBERRA ACT 2600

For Full Story please click on link below

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/qld/content/2007/s2154002.ht

Dear PALE&IF,

I've sent an email to the Prime Minister in support of the RSPCA.

I trust that other posters will do the same.

The more emails and letters that the PM gets - the more influence it will have.

Numbers matter in politics.

You guys do an amazing job and deserve our full support.

Whew, luckily the 45'000 farmers who own MLA, have such a great
organisation to make their case for them. Farmers are the
ones who insist on live exports for good reasons!

Perhaps Gertrude, you could get Bidda to explain to us,
why farmers being paid 20$ a head rather then 60$ a head
for live sheep, would be better off.

Scott Hansen makes an interesting comment in this week's
Farm Weekly. "It would be disappointing if the RSPCA is
becoming a public relations vehicle for some other
groups, rather then a co-operative partner with owners
of livestock across the country in developing animal
welfare standards, which is how they have been viewed
in the past"

The RSPCA played a role in formation of the present
standards, they have a representative on LESAC.
Now they criticise what they were part of formating!

This topic has been done to death on OLO. As has been
admitted, even the Queen Mary would not be good enough
for some, despite animals gaining weight and doing well.

I am sure that Kev has a great big shredder in his office,
where all the extremist and uninformed opinions can go :)

Foxy

On behalf of the Animals and RSPCA and PALE “a sincere Thank you.”
I have forwarded your comment onto RSPCA Head office.
It is people such as yourself who really make the difference in the ongoing battle for a fair go for our farm animals.

If you would be a sort of house master it would play a part in fairness for RSPCA and Animals. You’re an independent person with a deep sense of fair play.
Poor Foxy is always receiving roles of honor over OLO :) Needless to say that’s of course up to yourself.
You might enjoy the thread as the Live Animal Exports supporter continues to battle it out with us.
Let me introduce you to our pet resident rat Yabb`s who has a bit of a gift of the gap but lacks err, some of the ah, finer qualities such as a heart but very knowelable about worms he informs us which I find quite amusing...

Yabb`s is convinced that Australians are far too stupid to slaughter their own Animals.

If you watch I think it’s a current affair tonight its all about the danger of not controlling our own food supply.

I have noted the ABC link is not working so here is the RSPCA media Release to give you the facts.
http://www.rspca.org.au/mediareleases/MRShow.asp?ID=137

Also the report that has rocked the MLA who as you see up above the farmers think they control is posted below.
Truth is its also funded by the public purse and the public have long ago overwhelmingly demanded this barbaric trade to be fazed out as quickly as possible and replaced with a chilled trade only.

Report

http://www.rspca.org.au/admin/Sharedfiles/rspca%20analysis%20of%20mla%20le%20standards%20report_04-02-

Apoligies Foxy
here is the link again

http://www.rspca.org.au/admin/Sharedfiles/rspca%20analysis%20of%20mla%20le%20standards%20report_04-02-08.pdf

Some background=
This person was appointed to work in ME by the Australian Government and a eye witness.

http://www.livexports.com/eyewitness.html

LIVE SHEEP TRADE



During my two-year (1994-95) working period in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, there was great fanfare surrounding the re-emergence of the live sheep trade. The Australian ambassador flew with a Saudi prince in the prince's private plane from Riyadh to the Red Sea, only to find that, yet again, during the sea voyage many of the sheep had either died or become extremely ill, as reported by the accompanying veterinary surgeon.

Being a regular recipient of RSPCA literature, approximately one year ago(?), I was glad to sign and on-forward to the Australian government, a pre-printed post card, urging the discontinuance of the live sheep trade.

I also took the liberty of writing my federal member with a similar message and stressing the disgusting conditions suffered by the sheep. Having received what appeared to be a pre-formatted reply, I wrote again, this time in more detail, thus:

Given that women are not permitted to drive a car in Saudi Arabia, I saw much of two assigned Yemeni drivers, with whom I discussed a variety of subjects. As the Muslim feast day was nearing, I was greeted by one very excited driver who proceeded to tell me how he had been keeping a sheep in a postage stamp-sized area, and that his eight year old son had, for the first time, carried out a slaughter. The driver's eyes shone and his speech quickened as he described the knife and how his son had made so many attempts to slit the sheep's throat, resulting in its blood spurting everywhere. He was just so proud of his son and would not listen to my cries of horror.

The main point of my second letter was to highlight how, contrary to all reports of strict slaughter rules being adhered to, the above ritual was common practice.
Please click on link to complete reading full story.

*Yabb`s is convinced that Australians are far too stupid to slaughter their own Animals.*

Ahh Gerturde, don't tell fibs as above! If the best you can come up with
is some 14 year old story from SA, then this is a piece of cake :)

Farming is a business and 45000 MLA members have rights, not
just a few veggies who make lots of noise.

Farmers are entitled to an international price for their livestock.
We don't expect you to work for 50c an hour either. You or anyone
else is entitled to buy those livestock in the marketplace and
slaughter them where you want. Given that the Queen Mary is not
good enough for you, clearly nothing ever will be, so best we kind
of ignore you:)

Fact is, Australian livestock shipping is world's best practise.
Show me a country that does better. Fact is, we can show that on
today's ships, animals are well treated, with vets on board and gain
weight. Feedlots are not illegal in Australia, neither are floating
feedlots.

MLA, owned by farmers, is doing a great job. Meantime we have a
heap of mainly squabbling veggie groups opposed to the trade,
watching years old video clips for their information.

I can't see why well informed politicians, who are up to date with
the industry today, should take an ounce of notice of you, no
matter how many of your letters go into their shredder.

Yabby

Aah, Sir Yabbs knock knock, but RSPCA are 'not' a group of veggies. It is yourself who is trying to spin porkies :}

BTW the post above was totally independent of any other groups being a ‘Government ‘official.

Perhaps everyone would like to see the very 'up to date footage' of what the industry seem to think is Ok

Oh and this is on RSPCA site so lets not try to being the veggie argument into it ;) >

http://www.rspcaqld.org.au/media/Live_Export_Update_14Feb07.pdf

Many of those are crop farmers a bigger percent of ordinary decent farmers ‘disapprove’ of the live trade.

As well don’t forget the Australia Public which runs into the millions and the public funds poured into MLA and other Government friendly funded offices.

Does MLA really think they can bully the Australian public and RSPCA?
It would seem to me also MLA ought to remember its public funding as well as membership funds.

Shipping Agents who are the real traitors to this country and farmers. Increasing arrogance of MLA trying to bully the public and RSPCA will not be tolerated.

Let them start doing their job which was to promote carcass and chilled and BTW in a fairer manner giving the everyday bloke such as the local butcher an Equal opportunity.

There is no use trying to ride of the back of Veggie Groups because RSPCA are not a bunch of veggies

No more bullying of the RSPCA. We need to reopen the abattoirs that employed thousands in regional areas and start value adding in this country.

So Yabby not for an extra twenty dollars a head, or forty, or a million, is this barbaric cruelty going to continue.

Even the Live Animal Exporters 'themselves are on record as saying live animal trade has little to do with product and everything to do with the trade dollar.

It could be lumps of stone as far as they are concerned.

They just do not care and most see little difference.

However RSPCA do!

Gertrude, you do not represent the Australian public, even if you mostly think that
you do :) You are simply one voice of 20 million, you cast your one vote like
everyone else. What the meat industry does is negotiated between us, who are
in the meat industry, and the Govt, who represent ALL the Australian people,
not just a few veggies. What MLA does or does not do, is voted on by farmers
who are part of the meat industry.

Whilst you girls sit there on the Gold Coast, fooling around on your computers,
farmers deal with the live trade, know the strict standards that are applied,
even accompany some shipments to see how animals are treated. I trust
real people working in a real industry for my information, an intelligent
Govt will do the same.

The RSPCA is free to be against the live trade, just like I am against city
people being allowed to own dogs, when they lock them up in houses
and apartments all day, whilst they go to work. The poor buggers can’t
even have a pee!

There is nothing about sheep on your website photos ( supplied by Animals
Australia btw) that does not happen in Australia every day, as people
butcher their own meat. They tie their legs up, cut their throats. That’s
the reality. That might shock some city slickers but its every day
country living.

Nobody is bullying the RSPCA. Its more like a heap of veggies trying
to bully farmers, shut down their industry and destroy their livelihoods.
Not friggin likely! You’ll have 45’000 angry farmers to deal with!

If the RSPCA is serious about animal welfare, they are free to donate
some of the millions that Nicky has told us about, to help us farmers
improve animal welfare in the ME. Our competitors are supplying
around 11-13m animals a year to that market. Our efforts are helping
those animals too, which will be slaughtered with or without Australian
help. That’s the reality, get used to it

Yabby
No need for myself to ‘pretend anything.’

I can only speak for myself and the public that have made contact. Meat eating public Yabbs :) Yes there has been a great deal of input from others.

That only serves to show the overwhelming majority of people from all walks of life support RSPCA.

RSPCA have long demanded the evil trade be stopped and replaced by chilled carcass only.

It must be hard to get your head around that there is an organization immune to the usual gives bribes and donations.

I understand, here, you guys, 'thought', you had it covered, but not everybody operates like the MLA and anyway MLA are not in charge of Animal Welfare.

That is the duty of RSPCA. Please try to remember Yabbs you are getting yourself all confused.

I really must thank you for making it so easy for myself to demonstrate how people involved in the barbaric business refuse to abide by the legal authority RSPCA.

It’s good you have highlighted this and I would like to personally thank you as always for your kind contribution. :)

MLA- Australian Meat and Live Stock are not above the law, they only think they are.

BTW I do not quite understand what you are speaking about when referring to votes?

Are you referring to the attempt to infiltrate RSPCA with members that are live Animal Exporters? (Speaking of the MLA) and live exporters I wonder who came up with that plan, Umm.)

You should warn your friends not to be seen trying to purposely block the legal authorities from doing their jobs.

That may even be seen as an act of aggression and intent to pervert the cause of justice ...

Or are you referring to people with conflicts of interests sitting on Animal Welfare boards.

You know what I mean the ploy`s sitting on boards casting votes about live animal exports while at the same time being a live animal exporter.

ALP will put as stop to that.

*Please try to remember Yabbs you are getting yourself all confused.*

ROFL Gertrude. After reading some of your posts and conspiracy theories,
I can only burst out laughing :)

You are free to dream up even more conspiracy theories, but I’ll stick to
some facts.

Yes there are a small number of people actively crusading against the
live trade, that’s about all that it comes down to. They are free to
have their opinions, just not free to inflict them on the rest of us.
What associations they have with whichever organisations, I really don’t care.

On “Sleek Geeks” this week, they showed how easy it is to get people to
sign petitions, when the public freely signed a petition to ban water :)

Fact is that the Australian live export trade operates under world leading
standards and the RSPCA were part of the group that drew up those
standards. Those standards have been in place for a couple of years now.

Fact is that without the live trade, farmers would be shooting animals and
burying them in pits.

Fact is that the live trade plays a huge role in alleviating animal suffering
in Australia, particularly during droughts and proceeds from those animals,
rather then letting them die in the paddocks, lands up in farmers pockets,
to be spent on feeding their remaining livestock.

Fact is that the farmers and other people who understand the industry, want
it to continue and support MLA, as its complimentary to the present
local slaughter that is happening here.

Fact is that no matter how high the standards, even if we used the
Queen Mary to transport sheep, that would still not be enough for
some with their own little ideologies. Ok, whatever…

Fact is that Australian farmers are the only ones freely putting their
money on the table to improve animal welfare in the ME, something
which other claimed “animal welfare” organisations have so far
refused to do, AFAIK

Yabby
You’re such a baby which is why I left you sitting up there as the last post all day. I am sure you are like a child and you really believe people only read the last post.

I remind you again RSPCA are not some veggie group. Also if you look at the background there have been cries for an open enquiry into MLA for years.

Clearly some think they can ride rough shot over our laws and challenge our authorities however they forgot one very important factor and that are the public.

So feel free for your live export buddies to try to fool RSPCA with members to out vote their authority.

They ought to be careful as I have pointed out to you before they are not seen to be trying to pervert the course of justice.

There is undeniable proof of what RSPCA is saying Yabby.

Only today a finding in a WA court ruled they could not enforce the laws.

Do you really think that wasn’t just the result and finding they were after:)

Oh Yabbs how naïve you lot are. No wonder you all don’t have the capability let alone the common decency to sort out how these animals can be slaughter in Australia and send chilled only as RSPCA have insisted for years.

Even they have had enough of the porkies and RSPCA are very main stream as you know.

I personally feel sorry for the children and grand children of these barbaric people involved in wicked acts of cruelty against animals. I just can’t imagine leaving such shame to future generations it’s really quite beyond the pale.

Try not to stay up too late its all over anyway really because RSPCA enjoys full support of the public- Always has always will especially regarding anything to do with live animal exports:)

Gertrude, the Australian public do not believe that the livelyhoods
of thousands of farmers should be destroyed, on the back of
flawed ideology, it doesent matter who says it!

Now if people are against the live trade, ok, you are all free to
buy the livestock, slaughter them here if you please.

What you don't have is the right to deny farmers to operate in
a free and open market, to make their livelyhoods. A live sheep
ship is no different to a feedlot, except that it floats and
feedlots have not been banned in Australia. We can also show
that conditions in those feedlots are worlds best practise.

As it stands, the abattoir market in WA is not free at all,
or livestock values would not be so much lower then they are
in the East. In the East, there is at least free and open
competition in the marketplace, from operators between
States, unlike WA.

But oops, I forgot of course, you think that economics should
play no role in this, despite the fact that the public thinks
that farms should operate as businesses.

Businesses which can't operate with sound business principles,
like having a free and open market in which to operate, are
not very business like at all! Sounds more like Gold Coast
housewives economics to me :)

Yabby

I think most people know RSPCA are not over the top and they have not suggested farmers dont operate.


They could start some co ops and demand the Government to change levies and tarrifs and allow plant staff.


The programe is from Muslim Leaders and you would be very wrong to refer to refer to me as a housewife.

I can either sit down a watch a 360 view of the ocean or keep trying out this new lap top. For once you got it right.

.

*I think most people know RSPCA are not over the top and they have not suggested farmers dont operate.*

Gertrude, in the West Australian of last Saturday, is an article
about the court case. In that article it states

"The RSPCA and Animals Australia vowed to carry on their fight
against the controversial live trade and called on the Federal
Govt to ban the trade immediately."

Now either the journalist got it wrong, or the RSPCA are claiming
things that you don't even know about. If its correct, then
what the RSPCA want would cause huge suffering to enormous
amounts of animals, apart from sending farmers to the wall.

I don't think that these people have the foggiest, as to the
repercussions of what they are calling for. Good intentions
are not enough to create positive outcomes, no matter how
much these people claim to love animals and are naive to the
realities of what they are calling for.

Yabby

And you and I both know Councils and Governments
could fix the problem easily working with farmers`
RSPCA are saying start taking steps NOW to
reopen abattoirs here' I am trying to take a break so any posts will be short.
The case has served a purpose the time delay being pretty clear.There is no problem now to pick up on that and run with it but I am not so sure even now they will co operate and there you have the !real problem.People can only offer so many time regardless of the cause then they run out of energy.
There are other courts and other lawyers . Time will tell I guess what pale does but for now I bid you goodnight.

Gertrude, Lynne Bradshaw was on radio today, saying that the
live trade should stop now!

Clearly the RSPCA are taking a similar stance as AA. I don't think
that they have the foggiest, about the ramifications of those sorts
of claims.

The court case was more about the ambiguous wording of the changed
legislation. Ok, so now its time to change the legislation.

Yabby
Thats was my point six years ago but as you know its hard to get people to actually work on solutions by tacking it from a grass root basis.
Also you would hope for some support from farmers themselves.

I mean look at yourself for example. Sure you have mentioned some sensible points and things that they Government must change but only in passing.
I am also sure you read my posts where I said Farmers Federations HAVE been contacted by Asians directby phone many times expressing interest to meet farmers direct and look for plants.
Now Yabby regardless of what you think its WRONG of Farmers Federation NOT to pass on these requests to farmers.
Farmers dont need FF telling them what to do. They can thnk for themselves. No its all to protect the live trade and thats a fact!

Most farmers I have spoken to do not approve of the live trade but I think they feel oh well what can I do about it- I am just a simply farmer or similar thoughts.
I have been informed that Minister Burkes advisor will talk with us about our ideas and I personally feel the UN should be offering some assistance to farmers who do the right thing.

RSPCA have been more than patient Yabby going right back almost twenty years so dont blame them.
Your stuck o live but only i think because you love to annoy the girls. I think your a born torment.
You and I know IF you wanted to round up some farmers and meet with Asians you could make it work.
However you prefer to stay on the other side of the fence.
There is nothing i can do about that so I dont worry.

Gertrude, however many times I have questioned your sanity, I concede that
you are about the only one out of the whole animal libber brigade who realises
that sending thousands of farmers broke, is not the answer to anything. Perhaps
that’s why I have continued these debates.

Fact is that AA, AL, Peta or the RSPCA, don’t have the right to force their ideology
down others throats, which it seems is what they are trying to do. Quite frankly,
right now I see little difference between this lot and the anti abortion brigade.
Tactics are similar, they are few in number and it seems just as fanatical preaching
their ideology, which they would like to turn into law. Based on whose principles?

They have the right to believe them, but not to enforce them on the rest of us.

It seems to me that the whole lot of them, don’t understand the first thing about
marketing. Customers decide what they want to buy. Its not up sellers to dictate
to customers. That is marketing 101, ignore it at your peril.

I am the first who has encouraged the building of more abattoirs in WA, as I
understand the cosy, backward little club that the local industry has become
through lack of competition. That cause is both political and geographic.

Even today, animals slaughtered locally means that farmers are being shafted
bigtime, every day. It’s a scandal of first degree! Animal libber people
are simply playing into the hands of local processors, who must be licking
their chops at the thought of buying livestock for a song, if they achieve their
way. WA farmers would have to write off around 200 million $ a year,
next they will be told that they should be a business!

Clearly few of these people give a darn. Their disdain for farmers has been
loudly expressed, even on OLO.

The market has to solve this problem, not weird ideology by a few fanatics.

Anyone is free to build another meatworks in WA. We have the world’s
cheapest sheep here, waiting to be bought.

Yabby
My sanity has nothing to do with it because I keep telling you these proposals come from overseas.
Now isn’t a good time to talk to me after just viewing 7.30 reports and seeing the way in which animals are treated. Not that I haven’t seen it all before.

In another post of yours not about live exports you described life in ME the way it really is.

Kevin Rudd isn’t going to get away with live exports and don’t forget I spoke with the Advisor who contacted us prior elections. I think I have been very fair so far because I have not disclosed any conversations. I always do what I think might be best I the long run... I will wait a while longer.

Until more plants are built we will have to sub some prices. It’s really that simple.
Staff must be allowed in etc- You know the drill.

I have just emailed RSPCA and suggested that AA RSPCA discuss the meeting that they have been invited to many times with Muslim Leaders and I would suggest the Government joined as well.

Even IF Rudd banned it at midnight you and I both know what must be done to open plants.

Perhaps now is the time for pale to go public about the lack of interest to sit with Muslim Leaders and work united on our MOUs.

So at the end of the day we must work to open more plants, staff them, sort out tariffs and levies that were driven on purpose to favor the live trade.
. The ME and others have said for years we know it will be banned and we are interested to look at the proposal HKM Pale and AFIC have suggested so what’s wrong with the others.
That’s the REAL QUESTION?

Anyway I came home tonight if you feel like posting. I hate! the lap top.

Gertrude, the real point here is that the veggie movement have
no right to try to force their flawed ideology, onto the rest of
us! That is in fact what is happening.

*The RSPCA has long argued that the transport of live animals for slaughter is cruel.*

I dispute that claim by the RSPCA. If animals are fed, watered,
have shelter etc, are gaining weight, then a floating feedlot is
no different to any other feedlot. But as we know from on here,
thats not even the real issue, as even the Queen Mary would
not be good enough.

People are free to build more meatworks, I would be the first
to support that. But not free to ruin thousands of farmers
in the process. There is no reason to ban the live trade in the
first place. There is no reason it can't freely compete with
meatworks. Its really up to the customer.

Pets and livestock are not the same, its time that the animal
libber mobs learnt the difference.

If animal welfare in the Middle East is the issue, then these
groups are free to put their money where their mouth is, for
the benefit of all animals.

Yabby Said

*The RSPCA has long argued that the transport of live animals for slaughter is cruel.*

Yabby
That is simply unrue rSPCAfor years have stated they want it banned. Do a google search to find hundreds of letters to that effect.
YabbyasAmjad Mobood said as Muslim eaders years ago they need to know the Government will support their moves to re open plants
As you said you understand some of the background and changes that Government made years ago- and it needs to be changed back
]
As for AA its not really a matter or not if they have a lot of veggie people either.

They say both on TV and Web they support chilled.
I only know one person who could dspute that and I dont know thats its important either.
RSPCA are main stream and very reasonable. I am going back to my unit to think what is best if you can read between these lines.

Might try that silly lap top from there later.

The answerIS to bring in trained staff and slaughter here by reopening dozens of plants.

The old they are ok its a load of garbage and you know it.

Tell it to somebody who doesnt know better because I do Know Yabby So your waisting your breath on me unless you wish to talk about reopening plants and meeting ME reps Government etc.

Well Gertrude, that quote was taken from this mornings Farmonline,
as stated by Mrs Bradshaw. Go read it for yourself.

Yabby

Am I supposed to be clairvoyant now? What Did Lyn Say.

You mean Ban Live Exports?

The Keniries enquiry came to the conclusion that Live Exports needs employ the recommendations and that it will be eventually banned altogether.

Three prior Enquiries demanded it was banned years ago but yet rhe Government allowed it to continue. I cant express my utter contempt enough.

We can say that we have a proposal to at least faze out a percentage of the Live Trade.

To do this we need the co-operation of all Animal Welfare Groups, interested Farmers and overseas buyers.

This is where you and I understand far better than AA or even RSPCA. After saying that I acknowledge your pro live so on the other side of the fence. Only today I spoke with RSPCA Australia and again invited them to the table and this time they accepted which is a step in the right direction. This is only fixable working with the buyers and they are overseas.

Here is the problem as I see it. RSPCA AA and the many animal groups world wide do not see that they are either qualified nor should it be up to them to introduce changes to the meat trade.
They see their duty to point out the cruelty and the problems only. They probably see HKM and pales work as going too far- even extreme if you wish. We see it as a start to actually do something .They do not understand that. They feel that once the problems are highlighted it should be a simple matter for those who understand the industry far better than them to fix it. Given the facts you and I both know the Industry is driven by the Industry itself.

So the answer is for MLA and FF to be replaced and Austrade as well. New faces names agendas. All people interested invited to meet farmers to discuss supply buy stock direct and areas to build new plants with total backing from both state and federal as well as animal groups.

Gertrude, what Lyn said was highlighted by * *, you even snipped it.

*This
is only fixable working with the buyers and they are overseas.*

I actually agree with you on that point. Veggie groups don’t have
the foggiest about business. If we followed the points they have made
so far, no doubt there would be a total disaster, but then I don’t
think they would care.

Only market based solutions are going to work, for they totally
forget the Black Swan factor.

Let me give you just one example.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200710310351.html

Ethiopia has around 75 million livestock. USAID has just spent
12 million$ building the first four of 25 planned saleyards in that
country. Its going to mean a lot more turnoff for their export
markets, including the Middle East. Its just over the hill from
the ME after all.

If you ignore buyers, do so at your peril, for they can do things
you have not even dreamt about. Like source their livestock from
elsewhere, whilst you are caught without mountains of unsold
mutton, in the process sending thousands of farmers broke.

You will have achieved absolutaly nothing, except to shoot
Australia in the proverbial foot.

Yabby
What they argue is that its not their job to fix it. Thats a fAIR Comment. Only the other hand I am asking all of them to help pluss Government. I am not going to pull punches and i calleed RSPCA National yesterady to voice our concerns that they work with AA but ignore us. Only RSPCA QLD have supported our work with Muslim leaders.
RSPCA National have now for the first time in six years agreed to sit at the table with Muslim Leaders to discuss our MOU. However that said threy do not see that it is their place to get involved with opening plants. What we ALL share world wide is a united effort for the live trade to stop. What I am seeking is and always was to develope a programe that works and hand it over to RSPCA AA or somebody.
Now that has become a REAL problem to me because I honestly do not wish to do this for the rest of my life. Also my part is only small and HKM needs hard nose Meat Indusrty blokes more than myself.

The new Ministers office has stated they are happy to talk about this new idea of HKM. I just got off the phone also from Kevin Rudds office to discuss like wise.
I keep saying this can be done but only with Government suporting this project instead of FF and MLA ignoring not only my requests but people who have called direct from overseas including Saudi.

They dont tell the farmers about those calls. No.

I dont have all the answers but overseas buyers and farmers DO.

Put them all in a paddock or room together for one week without outside interferance with Government if its reasonable in suppoprt of a totally new approach and you will have the begining of the answers.
Without saying too much you must be aware the new Minister has got some things wrong.
As I said I prefer top work with new fresh blood who has not gathered a mind set - I hope - yet

Yabby
sorry btw re spelling but this lap tops hard to use and I am not a office girl. I hate it. So have a dig at me if you like.
Pale as you know is hated by peta aa etc.
Probably apart from anything else we do wait to be given consent to say something.
I cant get the pictures out of my head of what these animals go through.
I you think AA or RSPCA are extreme you have no idea what i would like to do to these bastards sending animals alive. I utterly detest them .

Now that sounds odd for someone who speaks and gets on well with some industries but they have grown to at least consider for the first time someone has put something together.

The sheep council invited us to talks with them while refusing to talk with AA

Livecourpe spoke to us throughout the Cormo and even their head said at least we had a plan which if supported by the government and farmers could possibly work.

We exchanged jokes with them while suggesting they paton whatever shampoo they used in the pictures they showed the public of the sheep on the cormo:)

We DO TRY to get on with people despite our deep feelings of outrage.
We understand we must work with the industry but MLA and FF WONT allow us the contact and exposure we need to get farmers informed.

That IS the truth and I am going for a swim .I am returning late this evening where it will be easier to post.
I might even tell you about the story we were running after speaking with Ticky ABC for many years.

*What they argue is that its not their job to fix it.*

Gertrude, that argument is about as intelligent as the Catholic Church,
who want to ban condoms and abortion, but leave it to mothers as to
how to feed those kids for the next 20 years. When you make
an argument to ban something, you need to think things through, including
all ramifications, not just read one page of the book. The whole book
matters! Otherwise your solution could cause far more harm then
existed in the first place.

That is exactly what is happening in the mulesing debate. Farmers
who don’t mules have been offered a premium for their wool. The
result will be that some won’t, so lots more sheep will simply die
in the paddocks from flystrike. As it will be out of sight is out
of mind, you will have huge animal suffering out there in the
paddocks, sheep dying slow lonely deaths, because of well
intentioned but ignorant animal activists.

If you are going to change things, you need to think through
ALL ramifications of your actions!

Since when is Lynne White actually filming improvements in
animal welfare in the ME? Why does she just film those bits
which suit the AA agenda?

Kim Chance was on the County Hour today, just coming back
from 2 weeks in the ME. He inspected a new abattoir in Saudi
Arabia, which he says is as good or better then anything he has
seen in Australia, when it comes to animal welfare. He says its
Australian involvement that is making that difference, as
competing countries like Sudan, Somalia etc, don’t give a hoot
about animal welfare.

Why is it that you only believe a bunch of veggies like AA,
But won’t give a bloke like Kim Chance, who is reasonably
level headed and certainly far more objective, any kind
of credibility?

Yabby

pale replies
In the long run = Yup. I agree. Different reasons than you probably.
Also I didnt get into the Museling because your all wrong.
Wrong Sheep - wrong country.

Just a correction of my above post. I meant pale dont or wont wait for aproval or consent to say something and that annoys some.

Yabby If you want some Muslim people who have lived in ME to stand up and say how bad it is then pale will happily supply them.

So if pale does that will you then agree. No I thought not so whats the point.

Lyn White did the Australian Governments job and for that matter RSPCAs as well.

Just like I have been trying to do Mark Vaile and MLA FF and Austrades job alone with the Premier of each state in Australia.

That would be to promote and encourage growth of our exports by introducing more value adding per raw materials.

Yabby Dont you see that down the track Australia will be tagged as wart criminals along with USA and UK and sanctions will be put in place.

Do you really want to rely on China to feed us. Maybe its a good idea in one way because we should reep what we have sown.

Also where in the hell do you think we are going to put the flow of migrants that are to come to this country. What jobs and industry will we offer them and their grandkids.

Re RSPCA I totally agree its good for them to learn some of the problems but only so they can inform their members and invite them to help kick off the new share farm and abattoir ventures.

Thats what We have begged AA to do as peak Animal groups.

That is because the system is so corrupt with the pro live exports and support for the Industry involved in the cruel trade.

Thats because cant get the Government of FF or MLA or Austrade to assist in any weay to do anything that is in direct opposition to the live trade industry.

*Also I didnt get into the Museling because your all wrong.
Wrong Sheep - wrong country.*

No we are not all wrong, because I accept the reality of today.
There are 80 million or so merinos and that it not going to
change overnight. Easy availability of
Trisolfen could have been a win-win, instead now we’ll have
far more suffering animals. That’s the sad reality of that
story.

Nobody is saying that there is nothing wrong in the ME.
Nobody is saying that bad stuff does not happen there. But once
again, the reality is that they will keep killing 12 million
or so imported livestock there, with or without our
involvement. You don’t change cultures overnight, as
we did not change overnight. Australian involvement in
bringing about change is the only stuff happening there,
to our credit. We should be doubling our efforts there,
not pulling out completely. Without us, things will simply go
on as they were, animals lose. That’s the reality.

Your problem is that you won’t accept market economics,
yet its been shown to increase living standards and make
people better off. So you get frustrated by Govt organisations
who don’t see things your way.

I don’t buy food from China, nobody else has to, we get to
choose. I certainly buy some imported foods, just not from
China, for my own good reasons :)

Go and have a look as to who is picking the fruit Gertrude,
its nearly all backpackers. Aussies don’t want those
crap jobs anymore, they have it far too good.

As to jobs in 20 years, most likely they haven’t even been
created yet. Twenty years ago hardly anyone in Australia
worked in IT or finance. Now they are some of the highest
paid people in the country, huge numbers of them. Things
like the internet are changing society so fast, we simply
can’t predict what will happen in 20 years.

Yabby
You speak of fruit falling to the ground and nobody to work for these farmers. You speak about economics on the other hand.

Then you say oh we have more IT workers now. We cant have a bloody future relying on China to feed us or any other country= wake up! Are you living in the real world.

We cant eat IT computers. They wont need computers if there is no produce.

Do you REALLY think that relying on a neighbour to feed us is safe. Look where we are placed in this world. Right out here on our own!

Your only screaming that Governments have litterly stuffed this country.
No staff =Get some No plants then build them= No people = Then train the Aboriginal people and give them half share in theoir OWN futures.

Yabby said

Aussies don’t want those
crap jobs anymore, they have it far too good.
pale replies
They either work or move to areas where there IS work or NO Its no welfare. Lots of migrants coming! TRAIN THEM

This country cant carry these ever increasing welfare payments.

So there is your staff. Regardless the live export trade will stop. I suppose you do have one point= It probably wont be to Aussies to fix this problem.

It WILL Be people from overseas. Do you know what Yabby they laugh when I tell them of our huge problems regarding farmers not getting staff and how our country cant make people get off their arses and get a job.
I havent bothered with your Kim Chance since sending messages quite some time ago. Think its time now to point out he can travel to ME in his pro cruelty trips but not return calls from local Australians.

I have not chased too many people given AA refusal to assist and knowing we required a lot bigger team to take on each state in Australia.

I WILL speak out if RSPCA National do not give the pale projects working with our MOUs with Muslims a LOT more attention.

Gertrude, I remind you that we are a major food exporting nation,
so not about to rely on any other nation to feed us. But the foods
we are good at producing involve mechanisastion. We import some
foods that are labour intensive or niche. We are not about to starve
lol. Consumers decide what foods they buy and from where it comes.
They pay the price accordingly. They vote with their wallets, its
their choice. Just as its your choice every day. You are the one
who keeps going on about the people. Well the people vote every
day, maybe just not like you.

You still don't get it that you cannot force people to do jobs that
they don't want to do. We are not in a Soviet Gulag! Aboriginal
people are free to be trained and work in present abattoirs.
You cannot force them. If you cut off dole payments, we know what
happens, the crime rate rockets up.

No employer will hire a person who simply does not want to be there,
for he can go to the nearest half million dollar machine and wreck
it in 10 minutes!

Why should Kim Chance return your calls? Gertrude, has it ever
occured to you that these people might well just see you as an
eccentric crank from the animal welfare lobby and want nothing
to do with you for they think you would just waste their time?

If somebody wants to build a new meatworks, they are free to
approach the Dept of Trade Development and go from there.

First we'll see how the three that are on the drawing boards,
awaiting EPA approval, will turn out and what difference they
will make. We should know by the end of next year.

Meantime farmers are baling out of sheep as fast as they can,
to grow more wheat. So IMHO live trade numbers will drop
substantially anyhow. There is simply no money in running sheep,
so there is a huge swing to cropping right now.

Yabby

What percentage of Animals goes live compared to chill in your opinion.
I am interested due to talk with heads at RSPCA

In WA its about half, 3 million versus 4 million or so.

For Australia as a whole, its about 4 million versus 30 million.

Thats very rough figures. Those figures could change
quite a bit this year, with the huge sheep selloff going
on.

yabby
Umm, Thanks. RSPCA say ten% -but if you add 'all' stock leaving- (Well you know what I am saying I 'think.)

eg QLD lead in live cattle. Then goats, camels, pig, etc

I dont think I care anymore. I care about the animals but when you keep getting kicked in the arse or stabbed in the back and all the your members are screaming because they work just as hard only to be treated like enermy -you really have to question what your doing with your life and others as well.

As far as I am concerned despite your bagging us along with AA and PETA we are only the Australian helpers for offeres to expand plants and chilled supplies from Muslim Countries.

"These people know a lot more than I do" .

All invitations for meetings have 'always' been to meet with Saudi ans other Muslim Leaders including Maylasia Oz .

We were just to get the right people together and help them make contact with the farmers because FF and MLA "refuse to help."

You say Kim would want not to talk to me = Ok Yabby but plenty of Muslim Leaders have not only spoken with my but acted on the HKM proposal.

I am not trying to be a smart arse. I have worked bloody hard to pull of these MOUS but always with the idea of passing them onto AA or RSPCA or at least getting support.

RSPCA despite the blind eye and the write up in the Australian against them along with WSPA and overseas launched the handle with care programe without even contacting pale despite the fact we work in conjunction with RSPCA QLD.

That naturally upsets the pale members and to be REALLY honest.
I just dont need this in my life.


Our members have had enough of the years of their obtuse attitude. I was asked to meet with AFIC six weeks ago.

I havent even bothered to even return the call.
Thats not me....

I tried but -too many bitchy women IMOP

Lets see THEIR plan!

Gertrude I have always claimed that you are going about things
the wrong, way, but I have also accepted that you are the only
ones who accept that there is a meatworks problem in the first
place.

I don't think that the RSPCA has the foggiest about the problem.
10% is not 10% in this case! Fact is in WA its half! If
you shut down the live trade, you would have truck convoys
for miles, full of livestock heading on a thousands of km
journey East, with no food, no water, for at least 3 days!

Its either that or dig pits. The situation is so hopeless
in WA, that even now sheep are being trucked East and thats
with the live trade going.

People forget that until the year 2000, it was illegal to
export lambs, as it was a Govt monopoly. So nobody
bothered to invest in the meat industry, if they could
not export. Duh!

When Monty House deregulated the industry, some Govt works
were shut down and one single player was brought in with Govt
help, that was Fletcher. So where is the competition?

Thats the real problem in WA, no competition, the few players
dictate the terms as they please. Thats why our prices are
so much lower then in the East.

We'll see what happens with these 3 new works, if they can
solve all the EPA rules. Thats why my call for a Govt
facilitator.

Investment by Arabs would be the best option, as then there
would be a guaranteed market in the ME. Otherwise they will
simply source their live animals from elsewhere, thats the
reality.

Yabby
don't think that the RSPCA has the foggiest ....

pale replies
They dont see its their role. Only highlight it and demand the industry and Government fix.

If RSPCA were seen to be directly involved in setting up plants the public might cry blue murder.

On the other hand, and this is the way I see it - If RSPCA AA at least 'tried to learn, educate the public, asked for help to greet Muslim delegates in each state, and talk direct to farmers, then that would be a huge step in the right direction.

'I think ALL the groups under estimate the publics common sense.'

Yabby said

Investment by Arabs would be the best option, as then there
would be a guaranteed market in the ME. Otherwise they will
simply source their live animals from elsewhere, that’s the
reality.

Pale replies
Yes I agree which is why I did it that way. Plenty Of Arabs interested Yabby I can assure you. That’s not the problem. Many Muslims and others world wide are miles ahead of us here in Australia.
They reckon they can see the writing on the wall with these live exports. They are not stupid people.
They are very savvy business people and anyway they really love the disease free green.
Anyway they are really excited by the prospect of being involved direct with Australian Farmers believe me.
No that’s not the problem. The problem is they want to meet farmers” direct first.”

That’s their ONE condition to meet with farmers 'first' because they do not want their first point of contact to be Government. They know how live is favored and want farmers to know direct from them what they are prepared to do.
They mostly want to’ listen to the Australian farmer’ and ‘ hear’ the farmers problems and learn direct because they d not trust some to be honest with them and they want the Australian farmers to hear the truth direct from them.

Gertrude, the sort of players that are required, are not about
to contact you via the internet. The Arabs are pretty sophisticated
investors, already with large holdings in Australia. The largest
of the Saud investor princes has just ordered his own personal
Airbus 380 to fly around and you don't get much done in Saudi
Arabia without the Saud princes agreeing.

It sounds like Kim Chance on his trip to the ME, had expressions
of interest shown by people wanting to invest in meat processing.
Thats what it needs. Large, sophisticated investors, who don't
blink at 40-50 million $.

Chance is the one who can make it happen. Perhaps with beef
farmers revolting recently, he's starting to realise what a
hopeless situation that the meat industry is, in his very own
State and will finally do something about it.

We'll see.

Yabby
The largest
of the Saud investor .....
pale
Yabby it "already" had his approval in 2006. He is a close friend of Amjads and Amjad informed the QLD Premiers dept of that fact way back then. Beattie was the only person really interested BTW.
Perhaps you re unaware of the dirty trick pulled over him in NT buy selling him that Dud plant and then stealing his supply of stock. I can assure you he hasnt forgotton.

There do not trust operators . There know its a conflict of interest. As I said there are many Muslims interested but only if they do it direct with the farmers.

The Prince has not forgotton the duty trick pulled off by Rural Transport Express in the NT and hes not getting caught again.
Please do not talk to me as if I have no knowledge because you would be incorrect.

Chance is only 'one of the few' people needed to be involved and that is for WA.
I am speaking out the whole of Australia and that requires as I said= Contact with farmers direct.
If you really think the Prince trusts anybody from the Government your very much mistaken.

Sure they will handle the Government - later. To sort staff.

This morning I spoke with the Now Business Consultant for Trade who is the one working with AFIC but also others that is able to move things along.
He returns in thee weeks from UK we`ll see.
The federal Government have to let staff in and there are some other things.

Tell You A little Secret
Many years ago when I for the very first time walked in alone to address forty two Muslim Leaders of this country I didnt know what to expect.
The first two questions were in this order
1 Wendy whatson earth is going on in WA with RSPCA.
2 Please can yu just tell us the truth because the Government and livexport industry just tell lie after lie
Not bad= Couldnt have put it better myself

Well Gertrude, believe whatever you will. We will have to agree
to disagree. The internet is full of people who know people
who know people, all trying to do deals. That is not how
big biz operates.

When Alwaleed invested in China, he went to see the Chinese
prez directly. Saudis have large investments through The
Carlyle group etc, which owns all sorts of Australian businesses
too. P&O Ports is owned by Dubai, so is Emirates. These people
are sophisticated investors. They don't need to be concerned
with Muslim leaders either. But believe what you will.

It is wrong to say that MLA only promote live exports. By far
the huge majority of their money is used to promote meat, all
around the world. Live exports are only a very small division.

I just think that whilst you might take yourself seriously, they
don't, and see you as yet another animal welfare group with
dreamer intentions, so try not to waste time on you. Sorry
but thats the way I read the story.

Yabby
I dont know what you are putting up as a bloody reference to your own self serving expert opinion.

Also I didnt say I could fix this on my own. However people I have worked with know the Prince and have other contacts not as names they toss around but personal friends. You think I dont know what they have where.

The cards are stacked against operating plants and you know it.

live exports has been propped up all round to support those few in the industry.

As you rekon you know the game and your in WA I would suggest you put your energy where your mouth is and get a contract from ME for Halal which isnt hard.
Then approach your darling Kim with a Aboriginal Council looking to operate a plant to supply your contract.

Under todays climate with Rudd saying sorry and lets get on with it - You should do well.
If there is one thing I hate its smart arses having a go at me when they have done F all themselves.

Having a MOU with Muslim Australian Leaders is just a step closer to being in contact with those who can make a difference.

Its true some in Saudi dont wory about AFIC just like some in the church dont get on.

However walking into the Government with RSPCA and Muslim Leaders together with MOUs with Aboriginal Councils and putting a project on the table with their support for overseas backers does.

When you have put as much effort into coming up with alternatives and geting plants reopended I will talk to you.

Up until then you to me are no different to AA or the rest of them with their bagging us - but no answers themselves and god forbid if you suggest one.

Your all hat and no cattle Yabby IMOP

Gertrude, you are free to shoot the messenger, its common practise
on OLO. Ok whatever, I really don't care.

Unlike you, I have no agenda, I am not trying to change the world on
my own, I simply state my opinions.

I accept that you are putting in huge effort, but that does not
mean success, it means huge effort, perhaps for nothing in the
end. Thats up to you. We shall see.

IMHO you won't get anywhere in WA, without the State Govt behind
you. Chance needs to change his opinions and his tune, that has
been our problem for the last 7 years. Nope, in WA things
are not stacked against operating plants at all, they hold all the
cards, they are stacked against farmers, as the figures show.

If you think that the RSPCA, muslim leaders and Aboriginal councils
are going to do it all for you, go right ahead. IMHO you will fail.
But I am happy to be proven wrong.

Unlike you, I don't see the live trade as black and white, all evil.
I acknowledge the huge strides that they have made in improving things
and being open about what they do. Just this week they had an ABC
reporter on one of their boats, documenting exactly what she
experienced. Clearly it was quite different to what you and others
are claiming.

Banning the live trade would simply create huge animal suffering,
something that the RSPCA have not even thought about. Perhaps they
should stick to their knitting and focus on pets, domestic issues
etc, rather then try to take on issues that they seem to not fully
understand, particularly the ramifications of their claims.

Market economics will eventually massively reduce the live trade,
not Govt regulations. Boats come here, as we have some the world's
cheapest and healthiest sheep. Once the local meat processing
industry actually goes beyond ripping off farmers to make a living,
it won't pay boats to come here and buy sheep. Or perhaps farmers
will have moved on, doing other things with their land. We'll see.

Gertrude, you are free to shoot …

Gertrude
Don’t temp me!

YSaid
I accept that you are putting in huge effort…

Gertrude…..
No . Actually I am not ... I did for years a ‘heap of work but not now.

The libbers have worn me out. I can’t do this without being able to introduce farmers direct. ” Please’ DON’T tell me to run adds in every paper of this country and go to all the sale yards either.

JAKIM and the Malaysian Government agreed to build a whole ward JUST to take Halal whole carcass and distribute to ME from there. Ah, Look I don’t even know why I am telling you …

Yabby said

IMHO you won't get anywhere in WA, without the State Govt behind
you……

Gertrude replies

Yabby he’s just one in many states. Surely you know why Chance has refused to help – don’t you?

We wrote to 'each Premier of States in Australia inviting them to "exercise the powers as Trade Minister and act on this project.

The bastards are too busy looking after their votes from those with vested interests. They don’t care about Animals or Aboriginals or growth in regional areas or what’s in Australians best long term interest. They only buy votes to keep their useless fat arses in a job.

You have got councils shouting their buddy’s trips to ME and other places often arranged by Elders and others. You know that. Y said
Chance needs to change his opinions and his tune, that has
been our problem for the last 7 years……

Gertrude

He will only do what’s best for him. Just like Howard Rudd. Low People. How ashamed are we the public as to how our nation treats its animals? These are not men. They are not men.
I say sack the lot of them.

YSaid
Nope, in WA things ....
Gertrude said
Yes they ARE stacked against the farmers and the farmers WERE put in this position that they were MADE dependant upon this one trade= The Live Export Trade. That’s 100% Correct

Perhaps Yabby I was mistaken by thinking you had more manners than Nicky.

I will just post part of the Governments Austrade Site which clearly shows their pushing joint ventures all right but the wrong way about.
That will be my last post .


http://www.austrade.gov.au/Agribusiness-to-Egypt/default.aspx
Egyptian landowners are particularly looking to Australians as joint venture partners but there are opportunities for direct sales as well.

Competitive environment
New Zealand and Australia are the major suppliers of butter to Egypt. However, for the first time small amounts of butter were imported recently from Ethiopia.

Poland, New Zealand and Sweden are the main suppliers of milk powder to Egypt.

Malaysia is the source for about 300,000 MT of imported stearin and the USA supplies tallow.

back to top


Tariffs, regulations and customs
Egyptian customs regulations are complicated and rigid in areas such as duty rates and are designed to eliminate trading loopholes. Authorities don’t have to explain or justify their decisions and there’s no formal appeal process. Customs procedures are subjective when it comes to identifying which tariff category a commodity fits into.

Although tariff levels have fallen in recent times, as a result of Egypt adhering to World Trade Organization rules, the government now levies an ad valorem service fee on imported shipments in return for inspection, listing, classification and re-examination of shipments. In addition to the customs tariff, a sales tax ranging between five per cent and 25 per cent is added to the final customs value of the imported item. However, most food and agricultural (livestock, dairy) products are exempt from this tax.

Hi folks
I've been away and only just found this thread - I also have read only the first three pages so far, so my apologies if any points I make prove to be redundant.

Yabby, you continue to be nothing if not bigoted, sexist and dogmatic. "Housewife" is not synonymous with brainless, or incapacity for free thought. Ending the live export trade will not send farmers to the wall either, it might just make things a bit uncomfortable for the minority of farmers who have made cruelty their business.Therefore, "discomfort" is the very least they deserve. Have you, by any chance, read the court judgment available on Animals Australia's website? Have you read the 2006 mortality reports from the same website, which show all too clearly that your "well-regulated" industry operates outside any legal framework, since according to Constitutional Law, state animal protection legislation does not cover these animals, and there is no National animal protection legislation? Awfully convenient, isn't it? Most reports indicate that the animals are not provided with the MANDATORY number of days in feedlots, ships are overloaded, and sick and injured animals are loaded anyway. Maladjusted animals are sent at times of the year expressly prohibited. Have you read the statistics at www.liveexportshame.com which indicate that this is a dying trade? Have you seen the film footage, and if so, did it not bother you?

And there is absolutely no reason why the RSPCA should be working as a "co-operative partner" with farmers, it is there, and largely publicly funded, to protect animals, not farmers. For myself, I find it totally outrageous that my tax dollars contribute to the operations of MLA and livestock farmers (who do more to destroy the environment than the combined transport of the world) and I have no choice about that. You need to get over yourselves, and work on exit strategies, because your "international markets" will not be available to you for much longer.
Nicky

*Ending the live export trade will not send farmers
to the wall either*

Nicky, how do you know that, based on what criteria or qualifications? Do
you have the foggiest about agro economics? Do you have the foggiest
about livestock? “Housewife” does not make you qualified in these
fields. Perhaps you should turn for advice to those who are qualified
to comment, but then that might not suit your agenda.

As it is right now, roadtrain after roadtrain is heading East with sheep from
WA, as the local meat industry can’t handle them and farmers are baling out
of sheep and turning to cropping.

*the MANDATORY number of days in feedlots, ships are overloaded, and sick and injured animals
are loaded anyway.*

Reports written by whom? Unlike you I have first hand dealings with one company,
which is Wellards. I know how fussy they are when selecting animals on farm. I know fussy they are about delivery dates, to comply with the days in feedlots. I know how fussy they are about sheep with a problem, for they are rejected and its shown on grower accounts. They even let ABC reporters and others on their ships
to observe what is going on. They have Australian vets on board, all qualified.

Yet you a veggie, who despises us farmers for letting ruminants do what comes naturally, ie eat grass, thinks I should trust other veggie and vegan websites for
my information? You must be kidding !

Your agenda is clear! Ok fair enough, at least start to hire some qualified people
to pass comment, not just a bunch of dreamers who certainly don’t seem to understand agro economics or livestock, as distinct from pets.

Clearly ABARE think that the live trade is vital.

http://www.farmonline.com.au/news_daily.asp?ag_id=49043

Clearly the RSPCA should stick to its knitting and deal with the ever growing
problems of domestic pets. Now they need to put them on Prozac, to
deal with their depression.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23271189-13762,00.html

.

Nicky, you could always tune in to "Desparate Housewives", to
understand what housewives are all about :)

Don't be such a patronizing prat Yabby. There's a good boy.

Love it, Ginx - thanks for that. Yabby, you really must learn to spell if you want to patronize people effectively. Mispelled insults are not a good look.
"Desperate" is the correct spelling, and no, not only have I never seen it I cannot believe they make it. If I watch television at all it is usually the ABC or SBS.
My information did not come from that infamous "veggie" website of Animals Australia, it came from the reports WRITTEN BY AQIS which are available for download from there (and from AQIS in more detail).
If you like, I can do the calculations for you on Wellards losses on these voyages as a special project and list all the issues AQIS found but I'm sure you are more than capable of doing that for yourself and I haven't got time. Be a good lad and do some serious and definitive research rather than relying on your self-professed (no-one else agrees with you) omniscience. I can assure you though that they have to do with insufficient time in feedlots (so specified in most cases), inadequate heatstress modelling, inadequate research into inanition and salmonellosis, insufficient feed and medication on the ships, and ships that are inadequate for the purpose (poor flooring and sharp protrusions leading to injuries, which lead to septicaemia). One significant culprit is reported to be the "Stella Deneb" - but that's only one.

Happy reading! You could watch "Desperate Housewives" for a break, it may be right on your level of self-absorption, intellectual capacity and self-interest.
Cheers
Nicky

Goodevening.

fyi link below '

‘part’ of our lawyers letter.

No I did not request a meeting with the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs as we had no firm proposal to put to him due to the muslims doing their usual backflip. We also heard no more on Paradise Country.

Wendy, irrespective of what the Muslims may have signed you and I know they have not honoured the MOU nor have they really proceeded in the spirit of the document. To them the MOU really means nothing if you judge by their conduct to date. Even if they are in breach they know you will not sue them and if you do what is the loss? It is an only an MOU after all.

I believe it premature to see Rudd unless you have some mandate/agreement with the Muslims – and to date they just jerk us infidels around. Without a concrete proposal and the ability to say it has the full support of both HKM, Animal Rights, etc and they will just blow us off and say come back when you have something.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/compose-message-general.asp?discussion=1547

Yabby said

*Ending the live export ....

pale comments

For Christ sake Yabby its not rocket science you faze it out by reopening plants here -'Der'

Yabby-
Clearly ABARE think that the live trade is vital.

Are Yes Yabby ABARE. How happy is the public that Government are not giving clear messages to public and Muslims alike.


Yabby since Dr Ali was replaced many things have changed.

On one hand the Government tell Australian public that we will not lower or standards for anybody.

ME people are 'very wealthy' and the crap about no refigration is utter LIES.

Moderate Muslims are very happy to pre stun and slaughter here.

They readily accept pre stun meat. Not so with some of the more extreme Muslims- that is true.

The question must then be asked whats MLA Austrade the Australian Government doing mucking around with Extreme Muslims.


What changes have been made by the Government regarding AWB who are still exporting live Animals

None??

Sheesh Nicky, you even lack a sense of humour. What a sad person
you are.

No, I generally don't worry about spelling on the net, I leave
that to the pedantic. That would make you a good housewife :)

I focus on the big picture and that is, as we have established,
that even if we shipped these animals on the Queen Mary, you would
still be opposed to the trade and that would still not be good
enough for you. The fact that your ideology is flawed, is your
problem, not my problem.

If AQIS are documenting any deficiencies, then clearly they are
doing their job! Fact is that in any large orgination, with lots
of people doing lots of jobs, some mistakes will be made and
some things overlooked. The live trade is no different.

As to deaths, its high time that you hired a qualified livestock
vet, who has worked on farms, in feedlots etc and has some industry
experience. He'll soon tell you that a 1% death rate is quite
acceptable. But then, as a pet loving housewife, its that experience
that you lack in the industry, which is the problem. You are probably
a very good backseat driver too :)

Poor Yabby. Speaking of flawed ideologies, I am curious about how you arrive at the conclusion that everyone who disagrees with your particular dogma favouring cruelty has a flawed ideology. Nor does correcting poor spelling of necessity make one a sad person.

You also seem to be under the impression that referring to someone as a "housewife" is an effective insult. I have never been one, but I know some whose intelligence and capacity for knowledge are quite extraordinary - in excess of yours, I would suggest based on available information.

You are, however, correct about the "big picture". Sending these animals on the QEII would not make it acceptable (and let's face it, you don't. There is one ship that is possibly passable but which hasn't the best track record, the rest are tramps (I've researched every one of them in the Fairplay Register of Shipping).

It has to do with the sick, psychopathic, merciless people you send them to. And no-one for a minute believes Cameron Hall's squealing about Australia "improving animal welfare outcomes in importing countries". Let's not forget that these are countries where publicly flogging and stoning female rape victims, female genital mutilation and other human rights atrocities are the norm. So please don't try to tell us that Nigel Brown and his little band of "yes-people" are going to make a difference for animals. The solution is don't send them. A glimmer of awareness might then present itself that they aren't going to get fed until they learn to treat animals in a way that approaches community expectations. And you don't need to be a vet to recognize gross animal abuse when you see it.

Night folks
Nicky
PS PALE, why am I more/less ill-mannered than Yabby?

Letter printed with permission - By ME Oil Rig worker 2003 (Extract)

http://liveexportshame.com/oil_rig_worker.htm

"Every time I see a truckload of animals heading for Fremantle, I feel ashamed to be an Australian.

These animals are leaving Australia at this time of year in the middle of winter. When they get to their destination it will be in the middle of the Northern Summer where temperatures of 40 + degrees are normal.

I worked in the Arabian Gulf on an offshore drilling rig for many years and have seen these ships carrying these sheep go past on a regular basis. You can smell these ships long before they come over the horizon, and for days afterward dead sheep would be floating past the rig, this is because the tide runs in a circular motion.
We could not understand why there were so many sheep tossed into the sea on a single day, until we saw a couple of them trying to swim, then we realised that this must have been the final clearout of those animals that would not have passed inspection, or would have died before sale.

Rather than kill them and carry them to the side of the ship, they must have made them walk to the ships side and just pushed them overboard.

Unless you have lived in the Middle East, you can have no comprehension of the people or customs or conditions that exist in that area.

There are supermarkets there just as there are here, and they sell frozen meat of every description.

I have seen an animal killed in the back streets of one of these countries and it was not a pretty sight. That poor sheep was being skinned with its throat only half cut, hanging up by its heels. The fate of some of these animals can only be described as being horrific.

No-one with any sense of decency could ever condone the live animal trade".

This, plus the fact that a ship's officer told me that they often turn off the ventilation once leaving Australian waters, says it all, really.

Nicky

Time to look at the 'bigger' picture.

At who we are supporting by trading.

At any connections to extreme Islam.

Its time the Government stopped lying to the public.

As the X President of AFIC said - most modern Muslims or main stream Muslim readily accept Halal pre stun meats.

Well if that’s the case, why, is the Government ,'encouraging trade' with the 'not so modern main stream,' Huh?

Dr Ali went on to say there was no reason they could not be slaughtered Halal in Australia.

For a 'time AFIC claimed 'to support co joint ventures inviting Muslims to Australia to cojoint farms and abattoirs.

Ar, but that was before the new elections.

There was great interest in this from Saudi and Malaysia.

Now it’s all about building plants in Malaysia, ME and other destinations to export these animals alive along with our jobs.

(Oh all subbed by OUR Aussie tax payers purse? Are we mad- "why are we so quite about this."?

Its time we took on the Federal government for exporting "our tax payer’s dollars" our jobs "and promoting barbaric cruelty'.

WHY are the Department of Foreign Affair still 'only prompting co joint ventures – 'one way=' 'ME way 'and other destinations= Anywhere BUT Australia

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:ychRYh1HtVIJ:www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/malaysia/govtresponse.pdf+departement+of+foreign+affairs+co+joint+ag+meat&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au

I think its time to inform the public of the 'not so main stream' Muslim connections that don’t accept pre stun meats and ask Kevin Rudd WHY we would be supporting strong business with them and funding it with OUR Aussie dollars from the public purse.

"This is the way we must tackle it."

Why are the new leaders working with Overseas Muslims void of any co joints with Australians?

Why is MLA laying through their teeth and FF and Austrade only supporting promoting co joint ME way ours funds again

Why hasn’t the Government jumped on -Mr. Glyde . (ABARE) head lies to the public.

Muslim DONT requires animals alive for religious purpose Mr. Glyde and they have 'plenty' of money for refrigeration.

You and MLA Lie. We demand the Government put a stop it NOW.

“Housewife” Nicky, refers to your qualifications in the field of livestock
production. You are not qualified in the field, nor do you have any experience.
It seems you would rather bemother livestock, then accept that we eat them.

If a sheep is hogtied, you think its cruel, whereas it is standard farm practise.
If sheep are on a truck or on a boat, the poor dears must be suffering. Says
who? The evidence shows that sheep gain weight on the boats, that’s not
a sign of stressed animals. Do you have any data to show high stress levels?
These things can be measured.

I can only judge you by your comments so far and they sound to me more like
a clucky housewife, then somebody qualified or informed about livestock production.

Yes there will be the odd ones that are sick, or that limp. Walk down the street or
walk around in your local shopping centre. You will see the same things amongst
people.

Yes, we know that you stereotype everyone in the Middle East as barbaric. It seems
not to have occurred to you that there are all types there, just like here. I remind
you of the Hallmark/Westland scandal, happening in the USA, home of Peta.
Perhaps they should clean up their backyard first, for they are as arrogant as you are.

Kim Chance has just come back from the ME and he tells us that he saw a spanking
new meatworks, equal to or better then anything he has seen here in Australia.

25 new saleyards are being built by the Americans in Ethiopia, so that they can
increase their trade with the ME. Do you really think that they will do anything
to improve animal welfare in the ME, when those animals go there?

Tim Darcy is correct. The animal rights lobby should put up or shut up. You collect
millions in donations, much of which is spent on full page ads in newspapers. Its time that you used some of this money to assist in improving animal welfare in the
ME, as farmers are doing.

Yabby, the connection between the general term "Housewife" and "Livestock Producer", as far as synonymity goes, totally escapes me, I'm afraid. Tim D'Arcy is senile if he thinks any animal protection organization is going to contribute as much as one cent to continue a trade that most Australians despise. Just another self-interested farming lobby nutter, obviously.

One wonders just whom Mark Vaile has been assisting during his holiday (at taxpayers' expense - again) in the Middle East.

Since journalists are only ever allowed near the "Becrux" and it has a less than exemplary record in animal "care", your point of view is myopic and redundant. You should offer your services as a "stockperson" on the "Al Kuwait", "Bader III" or even the disastrous "Maysora". And also put yourself to the trouble of reading some of the mortality reports compiled by AQIS.

You claim that these animals do well on the ships (gaining weight is not necessarily an indicator, they are basically fed bulk rubbish to ensure that; conditions on these tramp ships breach all of the "Five Freedoms" and that's just for starters). Since you have not seen them you cannot possibly know that. Nor can any decent human being have anything positive to say about the treatment of these animals in importing countries. You have not seen that either, it seems, beyond MLA's rather pitiful split second training video. Tell us - how many people - precisely - does MLA have working DIRECTLY in animal welfare across just the Middle East? How many - precisely - training programs has it REALLY conducted? Now, be a good lad and read the Senate Estimates records from November 2006 in Hansard, in which MLA says it "cannot tell these people what to do", so "nothing can really be done" to address animal welfare in these countries.

Enjoy!
Nicky

Nicky, your understanding of all this is about as naïve as George Bush. Of course
you can’t tell these people what to do. You are not in the school yard here, where
the kiddies are stuck with you, like it or not. Bossy people like you are exactly the
reason why many Westerners get exactly nowhere in the ME. You don’t understand
the culture.

Fact is however, Islam, which matters a great deal in the ME, is quite clear about
treatment of animals. By combining this fact, with some people skills and some
win-win technical solutions, you can move mountains if you get people on side.
Your big stick approach will achieve exactly the opposite. The Arabs are a proud
culture, ignore it at your peril. Frankly, they are sick of ignoramuses like you and
George Bush!

As it happens, Siba ships are busily building two spanking shiny new boats in
Singapore. But we don’t even need to discuss boats, for nothing is good enough
for you, so the point does not even matter and is irrelevant. Your ideology is
the problem, as we have established.

Now you claim that the sheep gain weight because they are fed rubbish. Hehe.
Do you know anything about rumen function and what to feed ruminants and
when? Once again, you are out of your depth Nicky, as per usual in this
discussion.

If you want to know exact details about what MLA are doing, you are free to
contact them and ask. I don’t do your homework for you. Some are full time,
some are part time. At least they are doing something, unlike the animal
rights movement.

I remind you that millions upon millions of animals are slaughtered each year
that are not Australian, far more then Australian ones. You are free to use
your millions to improve their welfare, but of course you don’t. If they
are not from Australian farms, it seems you could not care less. So Tim
D’Arcy’s point is a valid one. Put up or shut up.

Each time we 'put up' you dont reply. I have told you before IMIOP you are not a big live exporter. You have addmitted to that in the past.

You claim you dont know what I am talking about. Fair enough I wouldnt expect you to understand all the dirty business if you havent been closely involved with players.

We have, been involved and working with our MOU with Muslim Leaders. We have sat at the table and talked to people from overseas for years who were happy to operate here.

Now thats a pity really because what it all boils down to is your wrong quite often actually.

I can recall when I first started six years ago the RSPCA CEO warning me that the others wouldnt listen because they are so bloody jealous the the animals came last in the end.

I have seen that so many times with your lot Nicky its shameful. Even the Government are fully aware of the 20 years of disunity and the inta fighting.

The only difference being Yabby that at least Nicky has the moral fiber to care about these animals.

Only a retard would keep going on about the good conditions on board these ships after the 'bloody' treatment of the poor creatures has been splashed all over teli for no less than five times.
We had our own people there as eye witnesses yabby. Government workers seeing it DAILY how animals are treated there - and people as well

Five times in a row 60 minutes copvered this cruelty. Never been done before. Its just a shame they didnt hear about AWB until it was too late. Now I think its fair enough to say Yabby if leading journos didnt know the AWB comnnection why should everyday people. I told your lot Nicky but 'as usual' they didnt listen.

Yabby Nickys more right than wrong because Australia is the largest so quite clearly if the low life weak 'spines- less' two faced morons who are in Government had the balls to do the right thing live exports would stop.

Pinocchio said
Nicky, your understanding ..
Pale- Umm Yabbsie that’s not terrible informed now is it. Why do you think Howard and others refused to stop it and reopen plants? You must know that this was USA driven - don’t you?
Yabbs said
You don’t understand .. Gertrude does Yabbs ;)

Pale comments
It’s really quite simple it’s not them who don’t want business in Australia it’s the Government in bed with their ‘Special friends’ within the industry that drive the live trade.
Here is just a little example ;)

http://www.thepremier.qld.gov.au/library/pdf/us.pdf

Yabby said-
If you want ...

Pale replies
I can tell her that Yabbs. Can I, Can I, pick me. pick me ;)

Well, now where I start. Hey I know, I will tell her about the talks we held with leaders from Malaysia. I will tell her how’ happy’ they were to do co joint ventures with Aussie farmers.

I will tell her about grand plans to build a whole port just to handle Halal through JAKIM and be the hub of the world for Halal and to distribute through to ME.

I will tell her about the show of good intention and the interest to build the first large gas plant at Coominya to render animals unconscious before slaughter sending much product off in whole carcass-pending staff.

As Dr Ameer Ali said when president of AFIC- "most Muslims" readily except pre stun meat and there is no reason that can not be done in Australia.

There are of course more err, extreme Muslims who do not except pre stunning.

So the question is why the Government would be taking our public Australian tax dollars to build abattoirs anywhere other than here- Australia.

As Nicky said what was Vaile doing working when I would have thought fully employed.

Why did MLA tell me personally that Vaile saw shipping ship loads of live sheep from Australia to Kuwaiti as his personal baby?

Why did MLA David Jones try to tell me personally that nothing was happening in Malaysia when it was my proposal to the Government (Malaysian in 2003?

Hi all
Yabby, as usual you are self-contradictory. One minute we "can't tell these people what to do" and the next we can. Only they do not appear to be listening. Since we have given them 30 years to do something about getting it right, it is now time to withdraw from the trade. Grazing animals do not do well on ships, regardless of your self-professed superior knowledge. If they did, they would not be continuing to die in their tens of thousands of the SAME CAUSES despite the vast investments of taxpayers' dollars into MLA's "research and development". They mustn't be very good at it.

PALE, I don;t know to whom you are referring as "my lot". Since I am not a member of a group of any kind, I can't really expect to influence the decision-making, nor can I be held accountable for any decisions you dislike that they may have made in the past.

I take it from the various comments in this thread that all bets are off with your Muslim friends. Didn't I say they are not to be trusted? A MoU isn't worth the paper it's written on, and it is of course not binding in any way. Mark Vaile is probably feathering his little nest in the Middle East at taxpayers' expense when he is supposed to be representing his electorate in Parliament.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky

Yes you did say they are not to be trusted - true.

This was the only way I knew to help Animals.

This is what I do. I can now stand up and swear ;) no pun intended) on the bible that I saw this that.

The Government said that, while Austrade did that- but not this.

Farmers Federation refused to help to tell farmers of his extreme interest from Muslim operator to come meet with them. more. Head of MLA called said this that etc

It’s what I know how to do. I am an independent witness of how it all works. I can say what goes on with Muslim Leaders in Australia. Who is this and who is that.

It comes in very handy when putting the bigger picture together.

This is why I push for the AWB enquiry to resume which the Howard Government said hey couldn’t afford. (I am sure they couldn’t, hilarious!

I got an email btw from G today. He said he’d had a complaint about our listing names of live shipping agents on the old Emanuel thread ;)

When I first put this to AFIC they were doing nothing much re Halal meat trade. Amjad and I first kicked it off with a lot of good will.

I have spoken with 60M but at this stage not put anything in writing.

I spoke with Yabbs hero new Ministers advisor a few weeks ago.

To be fair he was very interested in the aboriginal regional area proposal.

Well I hope somebody else does it. I am tired Nicky and probably will back off a lot.Be here if the others need me- which they will say to themselves- well hell freezes over:)

Yabby would be the boy to do that if he sauced a contract for Halal from ME carcass. He could spear head it to his Mr Chance and talk with the locals.

As for up here and the poor cattle I cant even stand to think about it.

You should be nice to Yabbs I suspect he’s got a crush on you:)

*One minute we "can't tell these people what to do" and
the next we can.*

Nicky, clearly the psychology has gone over your head.
You tell schoolkids what to do. If you want results with grown ups,
then achieve win-win situations.. You are not in school here.

*it is now time to withdraw from the trade.*

That is really not your decision, as they are not your livestock and its
not your livelihood. You simply pass ignorant comments from the
cheap seats :)

*Grazing animals do not
do well on ships,*

Clearly they do, they soon adapt and gain weight!

*They mustn't be very good at it.*

Clearly they are, as 1% mortality is quite acceptable amongst sheep on
a boat for a couple of weeks. 99% are thriving. But you would not know
that, unless you had experience with livestock production. As you don’t,
you can’t judge. Qualified vets and experts agree with me, not with you.

Oh Nicky BTW

You should check out the porkies old Yabbs is trying to spin in the meat colum.

Telling everyone that high meat prices have nothing to do with live exports he is.
Check it out.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1563

See you there Yabbs. You know Yabbs in law if someone says something in writing and the other party does not raise any objections that is taken as excepted.

Its really nice you agree with me now - Dont you think so Nicky:)

Once again, Yabby, I would recommend that you familiarize yourself with contents of the judgment in the "Al Kuwait" case, the AQIS mortality reports, and ask when you have actually seen these animals after, say two weeks, on one of these ships. For example, someone who has seen it explained how it comes about that the "food" is basically rubbish by the time it gets to the animals - it does not stand up to multiple handling and disintegrates to dust.

One does not need to be a "livestock" (that's one of your problems, your fundamental perception of animals) producer, or a veterinarian, to know that grazing animals do not adapt, that for every animal who dies, countless others sicken and suffer, and to recognize gross animal abuse and torture when one sees it. It's interesting that you're not able to answer my questions about MLA's activities in the Middle East. Or is it that you don't want to disclose the reality (MLA doesn't want to either). You should just face the fact that the trade is "going out backwards"; I'm sure that you people will find other means of exploitation of your animals. The problem is that you are all too immersed in your own wallets to see it. As I have said before, other people have to make their "livelihoods" within the constraints of morality, human decency, community expectations, governmental and environmental policies as they evolve.

PALE, I would have thought that the Emanuels information was a matter of public record. The judgment is readily available. If these people face court on these charges they should expect to be named (even if they do escape on a technicality in the law - which further proves the total lack of responsibility of this industry throughout its chain of activities). Animal law programs are now being offered at several universities now, so the issue of technicalities like this wil be addressed before long.
Cheers
Nicky

Nicky

With respect, you say your working on your own.

You take off AA sites and PETA - It shows you care. The problem is IMOP the lead ship.

If we look at all your comments to Yabbs there isn’t one new thing...
He’s not worried about the letter from the oil riggers because its read to death for years.

We work at the level where we know it hurts. Thats what you and your friends must do.

We must take over the meat trade and that’s easier said than done.

It’s not undoable.

For your buddies there is a trail of evidence to follow.
It is with the Department of Foreign Affairs and trades and Regional Developments grants and the use of the public’s purse to build plants in ME with our money.

I posted the enquiry into abattoirs in WA a while ago Nicky.



Look at the share holders who closed on the bank loans to the abattoir owners.

Look Nicky at the connections to live export companies and Look at Vaile’s involment.

You guys need DIFFERENT council and a different approach.Dont rubbish us for raising AWB all the time THINK why we might be doing it instead- look and think and learn.

Unlike Dicky and even Yabby who put their hand up and said Hello I am blab la contacting you about live exports.

You in particular Nicky despite the fact we are a member institute with a web site and knowing we are working for the animals have never once emailed us.

Most of your posts have been to rubbish us Nicky – and again I put it to Why.
Your lot knows nothing all about the industry with zero desire to learn.

If you don’t know – Yabby`s are going to chew you .

Have you ever- just ever stopped to think Yabbys might be right on "some points;" What if fund raising and ego`s come first?

What If - For The Animals.

*It's interesting that you're not able to answer my questions about MLA's
activities in the Middle East.*

Nicky, I don’t answer, as I am not your nursemaid. You are quite capable of
finding out that information yourself, just like the 45’000 members of MLA,
to whom it is sent on a regular basis. Read their annual report, read their
publications, its all in there. I don’t see why any of us should make anything
easier for you. You the pedantic critic, can get off your butt, if you so desire.

*"food" is basically rubbish by the time it gets to the animals - it does not
stand up to multiple handling and disintegrates to dust.*

Nicky, a little something about the sheep industry. These days, to improve
meat quality, glycogen levels etc, millions of lambs go into small paddocks
or feedlots. They are fed either grain and hay, or pellets made in the same
machines, with much the same ingredients, as the live sheep pellets. Making
pellets in itself is a science, with lots of things that can go wrong, like not enough
binder, so they go dusty. These are all normal industry hazards. Do you think
that out in paddocks, where sheep graze, there is no dust?

In these feedlots, farmers face the same problems and diseases that live shippers
face, although perhaps with a higher mortality. So all the problems that you raise
are well known and openly discussed. The only difference is that at sea, any deaths
are counted, to keep people like you happy, on land they are not.

*grazing animals do not adapt,*

Rubbish. 98-99% adapt quite well to change, a small percentage don’t. Most
people adapt to change, a small % don’t. We have anorexics and people who
want to kill themselves, despite every available treatment. Even your doctor
will tell you that he can’t help a small % of patients. Being pedantic by nature,
you expect perfection in an imperfect world. That’s the real problem.

Yabby, in whose opinion is a 1% death toll acceptable?

PALE:
1) You are the only person who appears to have a problem with the leadership of other animal protection groups.

2) Why on earth would I want to email PALE? The absolute last thing I would want is for PALE to know where I am in NSW or be able to contact me personally

3) There is no way in the known universe that you will succeed in "taking over the meat trade", nor will you find an animal protection group to support you in such an exercise in futility (quite apart from the philosophical and behavioural differences). Get a grip.

Nicky

Nicky

I don’t care . Thats fine have it your way.
There have been MANY such types of issues over the years and each one has proven us right.

We joined OLO to escape the abuse but were followed. All your material is libber stuff and that’s a matter for you. I wish you well in your efforts to help animals

Now to the Emanuel’s family that has contacted OLO with threats of legal action if there name is not taken off my post I say this.

Unless of course you have since retired you are most certainly been listed as an owner of a shipping company dealing with live exports?
You can ring or email us and I note you have not done so. As I posted the link to our web site AND our email address for you why not use it.
If you are not involved in the trade then we are happy to remove your name from our list of shipping agents for live exports. What are you scared of by contacting us.?
If you want to Sue somebody Sue us not OLO
Again all you have to do is show us why we should remove your names.
Until you do our aim to to name and Shame each and every one of the live exporters.
So don’t be underhanded. Come out and show yourselves. We have requested OLO forward us a copy of your complaint.
It is our right
We will as I said remove your names IF and only is it’s warranted.
If you had nothing to hide IMOP you would be contacting us.
As far as I am concerned it could make an interesting follow up for AA and 60 minutes.


PS Tell you what I will call you on your mobiles - All of you and we can have a nice little chat OK

Pinjarra WA

Mandurah
&

North Dandalup

North Dandalup WA

Emanuel Brothers P/L Johnathon Emanuel Manager Director

West Perth

Esperance

Camperdown Vic

S= here is the email address again

http://www.livexports.com/contacts.html

*in whose opinion is a 1% death toll acceptable? *

Nicky, in the opinion of nearly everyone who is involved with
and understand extensive livestock production. That includes
vets, Ag Dept people, people who fully understand what
is going on and why.

Extensive livestock production is a little different as to
what happens in places like Europe. Let me give you an example.

In a place like NZ, they farm sheep. When they lamb, the
weather can told cold on them. Hundreds of thousands of lambs
can die in a cold snap, given the millions born. Thats the
reality.

In Europe or even the US, when they lamb they take ewes
inside, put them into little pens, then fuss over them,
rub iodine on the navels etc. Some sheep die, from human
error and its actually highly debatable wether they are doing
any good in reality. In some ways they might be causing more
problems then they solve. In Australia we tend to let nature
take its course and land up with much hardier animals.

Now take the NZ lambing. They might lose 10% of their lambs
due to weather. Thats 2 million dead lambs in some years, it
could be more. Are you going to try and shut down the NZ
sheep industry, because a couple of millions lambs die?

Poor sooky Yabbs - no talkies with pale :)

We told you he only had eyes for you Nicky

Theres hope for you yet. I dont know about our Yabbs though .
Hes always made the wrong choices.

Hilarious.

Oh come on guys wheres you sense of humour. Cant you just see Yabbs being the housewife while Nicky breeds lectuce leaves.

On the something more serious. I have spoken with Johnathon Emanuel
this morning and requested he send us his complaint to OLO.

He has agreed to do so. He claims he is no longer involved within the live Export Industry and his stock go to a plant in WA - cattle not sheep.

We have agreed to look at his postion upon recieving his written complaint.

So far it has not arrived but we will see what happens by this evening and keep yopu posted.

Of course the question must be asked if these people were involved at the time in the Live Animal Export trade then why should that be priverledged information.

We like to balance it also with a sense of good will encouraging others to divetrt to establishing the reopening of plants to service their providers.

Perhaps others would like to give their opinion on whether or not
the names should remain there as a matter of public record.

We have hundreds of details involving live animal exporters and have longed campainged for other animal welfare groups to name and shame the people involved like the police are doing now with hoon drivers.
So we invite comments as to if you think these names should be removed or remaim.
You be good now Yabbs :)

Gertrude, whilst I appreciate that you at least have a sense of
humour, unlike Nicky, I find it pointless to respond to your
posts, as I find them totally irrational.

I recently actually thought of your brain, when I was listening
to Edward de Bono discuss how brains function. He pointed out that
they work as pattern systems. He pointed out that they are very
bad at changing perceptions, that people have to actually learn to
think.

With your brain, its more like a can of confused worms and I have
yet to observe any other OLO posters who can make any rational
sense of those confused worms :)

I am sure that your intentions are genuine, that your emotions are
huge, but I can't argue with the irrational, sorry. AFAIK
you live in your own little mental world there, which few actually
understand. I certainly don't and don't even try anymore.

Why on earth should I fancy Nicky or anyone else? I am here to
debate points of reason that interest me. If I want to sleep with
somebody, I can pick them up locally.

Yabby

Re AFAIK

The difference between you I is you post things off your sites without any knowledge or background.

I am not refering to stock Yabby but facts. AFIK. Who do you know there Yabby/ To whom have you actually had personal dealings?

The people and companies you have quoted have mostly contacted us.

While you fail to understand the connections between some statements I have made- that is just more proof to me that your a small time player still under the spell of the old boys club.

Ok In furture I wont take anything for granted that you understand and I will be blunt leaving any humour out of it.

While you agreed your are a smaller player you have always at least indicated you are well informed.

If you cant follow my posts regarding the industry that would indicate otherwise.

The jibe about Nicky was all in a bit of fun because I was mistaken to think you also had just a touch of humour.

Its one thing to say Wendy I dont understand your last post and quite another to try to personally discredit me.

My knowledge of the industry has been posted on hands on working with large interested companies and we have come up with even more 'interesting' set backs.

The fact that its hard to relate to people who have not been present at such meetings is one thing, which I suppose, I ought to consider more.

However attacking my personal knowledge and mind is quite unexceptable.

I see your butcher buddy on the other thread doesnt think pale are too far off the mark.
You cant have people agree with you all of the time yabby.

Just some of the time - like I do some of your comments.

Others are just simply plain misleading. Regardless live animal exports is cruel silly and our nations Greatest Shame.

If I were not so busy I might have said a bit more but I will leave it at that.