Hey, Rojo, I love it (the humour, that is). Women of the human variety tend to have more choice about their reproduction though (thinking of dairy cattle in this instance). I agree, I've seen childbirth on TV and decided some time ago it wasn't for me.

Here are the Five Freedoms:-

1. Freedom from Hunger and Thirst - by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour.

2. Freedom from Discomfort - by providing an appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area.

3. Freedom from Pain, Injury or Disease - by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment.

4. Freedom to Express Normal Behaviour - by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind.

5. Freedom from Fear and Distress - by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering

Perhaps you can elighten us about where intensively farmed pigs, battery hens and meat chickens fit - with particular regard to (4) and (5). The (cattle) feedlots I have seen contained an absolute sea of cattle, none with room to move, and no shelter at all.

The saleyards I have seen are much the same. Codes of Practice have been developed for saleyards (and transporters), but they are voluntary, and my observations (usually weekly) are that they are totally ignored. One says that hooved animals shouldn't be left in concrete sale pens for long periods because they get "footsore" - Guess where they leave them the day before/after the sales? But what the hell? Some bureaucratic fatcat probably got paid a fortune to put them together.

Yabby, my information about mulesing and crutching came from a sheep farmer in WA, and one here. I guess you mean by "Gertrude" someone from PALE (there seems to be some identity crises there) - but PALE advises on another thread that it has these "co-joint" enterprises running in several states.

As for subscribing to Darwinism, or any form of religion, I have reserved my judgment. I might get superstitious on my deathbed and "find God", who knows?

Nite all
Nicky

Yabby
Gertrude isnt following her dreams at all.

Read below and see part of Sub to Senate Enquiry into Animal Welfare.

Read the proposal for Halal Vegtable farms cosmetics Halal meats.
Whom Does it say it is from Yabby? Not Gertrude>

SUBMISSION TO THE SENATE COMMITTEE FOR RURAL AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS AND TRANSPORT

ANIMAL WELFARE BILL, 2003 PRIVATE MEMBERS BILL

SUBMISSION FROM (AFIC) AUSTRALIAN FEDERATION Of ISLAMIC COUNCIL AND COUNCILS IN CONJUNCTION WITH (HKM) HALAL KIND MEATS, PALE AND RSPCA QLD

Thank you for the opportunity to provide comments on the provisions of the National Animal Welfare Bill 2003.

We would request this to be published and would like to give evidence at your enquiry. Thank You

Australian Federation of Islamic Council and Councils (AFIC) holds concerns for Animal Welfare.

(AFIC) Australian Federation of Islamic Councils working with (HKM) Halal Kind Meats has put together a program to foster joint ventures with overseas live importers and investors with Australian Farmers in co joining or by lease or by personal arrangement and operating FREE RANGE Farms for all Animals and co-jointly owned abattoirs within Australia.

Australian Federation of Islamic Councils (AFIC) have amongst other things Coordinate the Muslim Community across the Nation and represent all Australian Muslims in Government and interfaith affairs.

Australian Federation of Islamic Councils (AFIC) co-jointly with (HKM) Halal Kind Meat are responsible for Halal Meat and Food Products Certification.
Australian Federation of Islamic Council (AFIC) also supports the establishment of many Muslim Animal Welfare Groups and encourages all members of the Community and other Animal Welfare Groups to make contact with the email address that will be provided below.
What is much less debatable is the proposition that people who treat animals decently are usually far better human beings than those who don't.

Yabby Of course some farmers have had to drive their crops into the ground.
Thats because they were not savy enough to have worked the trade deals and the country is flooded with cheap imports.

That wont happen once we have our halal vegetable farms I assure you.

Nicky Thanks.

Hi Nicky, It's all good fun unless she finds out I've written that.

As to dairy cows, it's a point regularly made about their pregnancies, but what do you think these cows would be doing out in the wild(presumably you'd like them set free). My assumption is that through lack of contraception pregnancy may well occur, regularly.

re: 5 freedoms ,

No 1, you'd find hard to fault anywhere, but for those experiencing the severest of droughts. Lack of water and food is least likely to happen in intensive industries. Those animals in their natural habitat would be less fortunate.

No 2, Comfort is particularly subjective, dependant on acclimitisation, and whether you know any better. My experience as a once upon a time dairy farmer, was providing straw bedding in the stalls over winter, so the animals were comfortable and warm. Shelter is from the elements as well as predators.
From memory I specified feedlots with shade for tick no 2. Personally I think that should be a prerequisite.

No 3, Sick animals are costly. Even if you left the welfare aspect to one side, it is in the farmers best interests to maximise the health of their stock. It would be lovely if all pain, injury and disease could be avoided, but it can't, yet anyway. For humans or animals.

No 4, I'm guessing the main gripe is space as company from an animals own kind is hardly a problem in a chook shed or feedlot. Again subjective, but I understand regulations are changing in regard to space. I suppose its a bit like comparing the life of a family of 13 living in a chinese apartment, and a single person in a 5 bedroom Brisbane Mcmansion. Who is happier?

No 5, What do the animals have to fear? Presumably they will be afraid of someone who approaches, just as they would of thunder, or low flying areoplanes. If this point regards deliberately frightening, then I'd find it difficult to imagine why doing so would be good for business

*I believe that they are here for their own reasons, and they have the right to be what they were born to be - free, and able to behave as they choose *

Nicky, its you who is adding your religious philosophies here. I'll
stick to science.

I remind you that in nature, free as animals are born, once species
eats another. Somewhere in there, we are all part of the foodchain
and that includes you and me. We can show, what happens to your
carcass when you die, there is no dispute about that.

*I agree, I've seen childbirth on TV and decided some time ago it wasn't for me.*

Ok clearly you are a sook, when it comes to a bit of pain. Sheesh,
when we were kids, we lived and we suffered all the time lol.
We were adventurous, breaking and cutting ourselves fairly regularly,
which meant the normal rush to the emergency ward yet once again.
You must have been one of those goodie-goodie kids which we all
despised :)

As to meat and being healthy, I have had a number of anemic looking
types with no energy, tell me all about the wonders of the veggie
brigade. I've just looked up some figures. The Indians tend to
eat very little meat, plenty of vegetarians there. Their life
expectancy is 59!

Gertrude confuses American processed food with a healthy balanced
diet. I'd rather judge the opinions of qualified nutritionists
when it comes to that topic, then a bunch of emotional animal
libbers. But then again, you people freely comment about sheep,
another topic about which you know little, so not much changes...

Hey Rojo and Yabby
Yes, I will admit to being a total sook - but not when I was a kid; then I was into all the stuff that Yabby describes, including playing A-grade hockey. But childbirth's a whole other extreme, although I recognize that the people I've seen on telly doing it are probably paid to make that sort of noise. Anyway - after the childborth, you're left with the kid/s - and I wasn't into that either, too much else to do. Rojo, I was told (by my mother) that once you see the kid after it's born you forget about the pain but I didn't believe that either.

Yabby, what happens in nature is a bit of a different ball-game from the mass, industrialized slaughter the human species engages in. It is a matter of survival, and I know it isn't pretty. The human species, however, is the only one that mass-breeds animals simply to mass-slaughter them in their millions before they even get to properly grow up. You simply can't compare the two.

Rojo, as far as intensively farmed animals are concerned, I'll tell you the difference. When I brought home my "spent" (ain't that cute?) hens from a battery farm, they had no feathers and could barely stand. Three years later, they have full feathers and are working on teaching the dogs some manners (gone feral in revenge, perhaps?) I haven't been to an intensive pig farm but my friend has, and filmed and described it, in awful detail. Animals Australia's film couldn't have been made up. Being a pig in Australia sucks. Being in a feedlot or a saleyard sucks too, especially if at some point in your life you have been comparatively free. Being in a slaughterhouse sucks according to meatworkers I have talked to, who say the animals know what is happening and are terrified.

PALE, those submissions are five years old, and the Bill never went anywhere. I was concerned about that one at the time because it seemed to be more about promoting thisHKM crowd than animal welfare.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky, It's all good fun unless she finds out I've written that.

Hilarious you’re such a child.I think I will get another one too.

Maybe Gertrude'

Yabby Said=

Gertrude if you ran this country, frankly I'd leave :)

Gertrude replies.
Ah, some real motivation ah:)

Re your theory on eating meat=

Some of the healthiest people with the longest lives, lowest cancer rates and highest IQ's are Vegetarians.

Take Albert Einstein for example, he was a vegetarian. More famous vegetarians can also be found here.

"Men who eat red meat as a main dish five or more times a week have four times the risk of colon cancer of men who eat red meats less than once a month," says Edward Giovannucci of Harvard Medical School.

Heavy red-meat eaters were also twice as likely to get prostate cancer in his study of 50,000 male health professionals. Source: Time Magazine

That's just one study. Looking at others, says Lawrence Kushi of the University of Minnesota, "the evidence is quite consistent that red meat is associated with a higher risk of colon - possibly prostate - cancer":)

Oh BTW Yabbs you could send a copy of that to Sam the idiot who is such an embarrassment to this Nation for tomorrows Australian Day.

Possibly we could replace him with some of our great achievers of the year. Hey Yabbs I think I found my niche= Yep a bloody natural.

Ah, something rells me he might not be calling vegans scum bums and whatever this year.
(A little birdie told me) but 'hey' in case I miss anything keep us posted ah Nicky.

Getting back to the "bone" of this thread=

Australian grocery prices have left 46% in ten years.

The highest in the world. Lamb 73%. Beef 63%.

Farmers are getting less for their stock and paying three times as much with feed and costs.

Farmers gets 2.70 kilo and it’s sold for $16.oo kilo.

The Answer= more competition- reopen plants. Stop the cruel live trade.

Live Animal Exports are hurting Australian Families at the supper market.

Thats whats happening to meats:)