Hi Yabby
I take your point - to an extent. Sheep and cattle (do you mean they are different from each other or different from cats and dogs?) do live relatively okay lives (unless you count being castrated/spayed, mulesed, tail docked, de-horned, all without anaesthetic - unlike dogs and cats) unti their "time is up", as you so quaintly put it. Tens of thousands might have spent their short, wretched lives crammed into feedlots. If they are pigs or chickens it is much worse. Then they are terrified out of their minds, trucked (or shipped) indeterminate distances to have their throats cut, possibly fully conscious and aware.

I asked my "slaves", who in fact run this household, not I, and they pointed out that on the whole, since they have gourmet-level food, were unconscious when they were spayed, get to sleep in warm beds inside the house (my bed, in fact - their choice), have never seen a chain or similar object, and will either get to die of natural causes or by painless injection - that on the whole, they prefer their lot in life. No riding on the back of a utility for these slaves either! Nor have they been left alone for more than a couple of hours (but I admit that in itself has created a certain set of problems).

I am told now that the enquiry instigated by that never to be sufficiently regretted embarassment McGauran is continuing; there has been no outcome yet. But meatworkers are very clear on the matter and do not want to slaughter animals who are not stunned, and I would suggest that they have the reasons for taking that position (beyond the usual OH&S ones).

Nite all
Nicky

Hi again all

Back to the topic and enough of the frivolity. According to Muslim precepts, a number of conditions must be complied with in order for meat not to be haram (note spelling) - included in those conditions is that the knife cannot be sharpened in the sight of the animal (or it is regarded as killing it twice), it must be a single cut, with a razor sharp knife, and the animals must not be slaughtered in the sight of one another. Nor must they have suffered or been treated cruelly before they are slaughtered. They must also be "whole" and "unmarked" (makes me wonder how they get away with all the mulesed, castrated animals they slaughter in the Middle East really, perhaps they are flexible with the truth with their customers, these butchers)

In all the material Animals Australia filmed, none of these conditions is complied with. There is clear and irrefutable evidence that blunt knives are used to hack at the animals' throats (let's not even go there with the cattle!), they have surely suffered in their (short)lives, and lots and lots are slaughtered not only in full view of one another but often on top of one another. I understand too that cutting the throat of a sheep is not that simple - all that wool does get in the way.

Just a few thoughts. Whether the kosher principles are similar I don't know but from what I have read they are.

And Yabby - claiming that live exports saves all these animals from starvation/dying of thirst because of the drought just doesn't cut it, I'm afraid. If you can't afford to look after your animals, or conditions are so unfavourable, you should not have/keep breeding them. It should be becoming clear to all but the most hardened (dumbest?) farmers that what you do is becoming less and less sustainable.

Definitely "nite" now,
Nicky

*No riding on the back of a utility for these slaves either!*

There you go Nicky, trying to understand other species through
your eyes and thoughts. I can assure you that when given the choice,
there are many times when dogs far prefer the back of a ute to the
front. Now tell me how many city dogs are locked into houses
and apartments and can’t even pee when they need to pee?

Sheep and cattle are quite happy being sheep and cattle, out
in nature, as tens of millions are. They would neither want your
bed nor your gourmet food, but prefer to hang out with herds of
their own kind, doing their thing. That includes sex and motherhood.
We don’t need to breed them, they do it all by themselves, its all
part of nature.

How do you know that they are terrified on trucks? Again projecting
your values, not understanding theirs. Shearing would be a far more
traumatic experience for a sheep, as its isolated from other sheep.
Herd animals find comfort in numbers, no matter where they are.

Yes we eat them. You’ll be eaten too, when you die. Everything is
recycled, that’s nature. I remind you that dying of natural causes can
be an extremely painful experience and agonisingly slow.

You make my point for me about Halal. Islam matters in the ME and
it would make perfect sense to use that fact to improve animal welfare
in the region, reminding them of their own religious requirements.

As to droughts Nicky, Govts can’t yet legislate for rainfall and we are
not yet much good at predicting them. So we need solutions to deal
with livestock when they do occur. Politics is all that prevents those
solutions from happening, I am sorry to say.

Hi all
I_spy and Cuphandle, you both make excellent points, and don't be bullied by anyone from your positions. Another point worth mentioning in that context is the human rights record/s in the Middle East, which they also seek to export to other countries (a young girl was murdered in an "honour killing" in Scotland in recent months). At www.liveexportshame.com you will find a news report about a young rape victim sentenced to 200 lashes and a jail term. This leaves little reason to believe that anything will change for animals in terms of of human kindness over there.

I think that until there is scientific evidence to the contrary - and Yabby, you haven't supported your statements with any that isn't especially objective or impartial, Australia should not change its regulations regarding pre-slaughter stunning. Also, Yabby, would you rather be unconscious if your throat is to be cut?

As for the "slaves" on the back of utilities, it is a dangerous and indefensible practice,. Sudden braking or a minor accident can and all too often does result in a dog being "hanged" and/or having its neck broken. There have been three recent such cases (dead dogs on the side of the road as a result of this practice) nearby. If you MUST do it the least you can do is put a harness on the dog rather than a collar and leash.

Nicky

*it is a dangerous and indefensible practice,.*

ROFL Nicky. My dogs would think that you are an old
fussing grandmother :) They jump on and off that ute
as they please, or through the window if they please,
no chains in sight anywhere.

Just because you can't do those things and enjoy them,
what makes you think that working farm dogs can't?
Your little slaves clearly can't.

Once again, its you projecting your grandmotherly fears
onto another species, when they are quite capable of
enjoying themselves and their lives, without your judgement.

I've never lost a dog yet, due to a vehicle accident.

When my time comes, frankly I don't care if it will take
1 or 5 seconds. Main thing I'm not left for days, weeks
or months, to die of natural causes, as so many people
are forced to endure. Its not a pretty sight

I spy cuphandle and anybody else FYI

Taryn was asked to post the comment= asaking everybody to retrain from racial comments- or comments that could be claimed to be racuist because I didnt want the3 thread closed as many before this one have been.
Now i have only glanced at this while waiting my flight but yes = We do have profff the Muslims have requested Halal without pre stunning be law in Australia.
As a matter of fact this iwsnt a new requests.
They asked the Government six years ago to make it possible and got a flat NO.
Although the states which have been run by ALP have allowed slaughter without any pre stunning for a long time.

Now as for comments on Bali which is off post.
I dont think any Aussie would want to see them live or enjoy anything IMOP.
After leaving stations and speaking with old abattoir workers who have seen Halal Slaughter first hand we travelled to Cains.
IMOP it wont matter what Aussies think or say soon.

Almost every shop is Asian owned as they hawk their goods which is actually illegal in our law.

The food health safety standards are both not known and equally ignored if you are brave enough to point it out to them.

By large Aussies are ignored and every single shop without fail sells Halal.

Its a far bigger problem than most are aware.
I invited Dr Ali to comment on this thread.

It is a pity he has not done so.
When I return I will post the first hand comments of the abattoir workers who saw may halal slaughters.

None of these blokes are soft touches.