We invite you to post your thoughts on Islamic Slaughter in Australia.
The Federal Government are to consider a request From Muslims not to pre stun Animals. A method that has previously been illegal on humane grounds.

Peter Singer (b. 1946) in his classic work Animal Liberation commented: “Slaughter according to a religious ritual need not comply with the provision that the animal be stunned before being killed. At the time this method of slaughter was laid in Jewish law.
RSPCA Also have guidelines under Animal Welfare Laws and have in the past demaned Animals are pre stun either by way of abolt to the head torender the Animal unconsious or an electric stun gun to stun the Animal before its throat is cut.

I have copied some of those laws as follows.

The following:3.1.17.1 Restraint of individual animal prior to
stunningHead restraint is necessary for adult cattle as failure to
restrain the animal’s head may lead to imprecise percussive stunning,and that the knocking box design should facilitate animal restraint to minimise movement to assist in accurate placement of stunning equipment.Specific head restraint is not required for pigs,sheep and calves provided body restraint is satisfactory.3.1.17.2 Efficiency of stunning equipment and monitoring of efficiency on a regular basisaTo ensure effective stunning,electric stunning

The question is who is right and who is wrong and is this a move to improve Animal Welfare or put other issues before animal welfare.

Also are People entiled to know what they are eating by food outlets displaying either Halal Or Australian Slaughter methods on public display

shouldn't that be 'halal/kosher'?

has anyone asked the cows?

PeopleAgainst ... said Slaughter according to a religious ritual need not comply with the provision that the animal be stunned before being killed. At the time this method of slaughter was laid in Jewish law.

Peter Singer is seen as very extreme in his views.

I dont care what Jewish law says, this is Australia and they need to respect our laws.

What right do they have to put their rutuals before animal welfare?? Makes me boil!

The whole concept of cutting an animals throat to facilitate it`s bleeding (to death) whilst the animal is still conscious and aware, is totally abhorrant to any reasonable thinking and feeling human being!

The hard cold fact that animals have to be slaughtered at all for food by neccesity is hard enough to deal with, but the Halal requirement is sheer bloody mindedness.

Religion in all its forms has a lot to answer for in this modern world. I remember not too long ago a Christian Archbishop state that "animals had no spirituality!"......what a load of rubbish! ...if an animal has a brain and a heart it has spirituality!
It is amazing what some of these many religous zealots will say to support their own cause!

As far as I am concerned Halal slaughter should be banned here in Australia and if the "true believers" want to participate in this animal brutality, let them go back and do it in their own country, where the stoning to death of women that have been raped is "acceptable" and "justifiable"....according to their religion!

I_Spy

“Peter Singer is seen as very extreme in his views.”

What exactly do you mean by Peter Singer being extreme in his views and what are those extreme views to which you refer?

David

Hello Everyone. I am placing link which was provided by another poster Yabby on different thread.

Thank You Yabby.

It is the amazing work of Dr Temple Grandin`s Her book was a best seller in USA. The lifes story of this truely amazing women is worth a read even if you ae not particially interested in Animal Welfare.

http://www.grandin.com/index.html

DEMOS

Well not really because Kosher was stopped on cruelty grounds some time ago.

After saying reports say Kosher was is still happening.

Its been a grey area for some time now which led me to speak with a AQIS inspector around a year ago. He said it had been stopped and was only ever allowed if it was by a "special order."
Please excuse me while I cough.

There was a great deal of work done to highlight the cruelty by people working hard to stop barbaric treatment of horses at plants that would go into more detail[ space allowing]]

Without Pre Stunning DEMOS
Animal suffering are commonly dismissed as "just twitching nerves" despite veterinary research which shows sheep remain conscious of the pain for 30-40 secondsatleast but some say more. Far more.

For cattle, it's much longer due to a secondary blood supply to the brain that prolongs the suffering.

Knife-only killings are still accepted as normal practice throughout the Middle East and in parts of Africa and Asia.

Australian has had strict guidelines for local abattoirs which must use captive-bolt stun guns even for kosher and halal prepared meat, [yet the Commonwealth allows livestock to be subjected to butchery methods overseas that would never be tolerated at home.]
Getting back on track= There is a real threat the Rudd Governmentis about to approve Australia being turned into A Riutual Slaughter country similar to the middle East.

" Past Muslim leaders spoke out to ensure Government that most Muslims except Pre Stunning in Halal Abattoirs Here."

So Have we got it Wrong? Should we allow this? Do you prefer the evidence and advise of our vets which RSPCA have always stood by or perhaps we have all been wrong.?

Oh please, animals have been slaughtered that way for thousands of years. They die, and it ain't slow. If you don't like it, don't eat meat. It's not just the Muslims and Jews that do it PALE, I do it too. I prefer to shoot them in the head when I'm hunting but if I'm putting it out of its misery I'll slit its throat, or break its neck. It's all over in a few seconds.

It's funny that most the comments so far are aimed at the religious aspect of your topic and not the topic itself. Sad.

Grow up my friend, and get your head out of the mung bean bowl.

Athiest - my comment about Peter Singer was broad and meaning that just because Peter Singer says this or that, doesnt mean it is instantly credible. His word is not respected by all. I have no wish to get into a debate about him.

I somehow feel that the respectful little ritual some of you have in mind is a far cry from the bloodbath that would happen if we suddenly just started slashing throats of sheep on the production line without first stunning. We are not talking a single lamb offered up to Allah here!

Neither do I, I_Spy. But broad based comments that have been promoted by those in opposition to Peter Singer are not correct. Peter singer analyses philosophical conundrums and draws possible conclusions to them. He does not state we must do this or that but his conclusions say we should. He is one of the clearest thinkers the planet has produced and his ideas should not be dismissed out-of-hand because of the existence of traditional ideological ‘certainties’.

Peter Singer has always demonstrated a very compassionate nature. This he does with sentient animals, including humans. It is those pushing narrow agendas, which have given him an unjustified bum-rap.

It is unfortunate that some of the mud thrown has unwarrantedly stuck in the minds of the public.

David

My point exactly. So would quoting the words of Peter Singer help or hinder?

Is there scientic evidence that supports pre stunning is unwarranted?

I just envisage a slaughter line of hundreds of sheep, those not already in the process of bleeding to death, will be listening to the distress of the rest of them. A single ritual slaughter is no comparison to a huge kill that happens daily in our abattiors.

I_Spy,

Yes, it was a pertinent comment. Peter Singer, if as quoted, just stated that the reason for not stunning an animal has its basis on not what is known but based on tradition religious ritual.

I concur that Halal slaughter would create a situation of compromising existing Australian animal welfare standards.

The agreement to Halal slaughtering by strict religious adherents or the ideas of individuals not acquainted with the existing Australian standards or don’t hold fast to them, must not be the decider on this.

Animal welfare in this country, although considerably better than many others, is nowhere near perfect. We should be striving as an advanced nation to lose no ground in lessening the suffering of sentient creatures.

It weakens the force of our arguments on other matters, such as whaling, if we do.

David

Ah yes, but if we ban halal slaughtering in Australia, what does that do to the arguments of those who wish to ban live exports of sheep etc to Muslim countries? Are you suggesting that we don't export meat to Muslim countries, alive or dead?

I can't see why the relevant Australian authorities don't just stick to their guns on the issue of pre-stunning at abattoirs. If Muslim or Jewish fundies don't like it, let them eat vegetables instead of meat.

Do we have to be barbaric? Could we please go with the method that involves the quickest and least painful way of slaughtering the animals?

I know that money dictates, and probably in this case - greed will win out. Those that have the money to spend will dictate their terms no matter what we say. But we can at least try to voice our concern over the methods used.

I'm with PALE&IF and the RSPCA on this one.

C J Morgan,

Exporting live animals to Muslim countries only shifts the animal welfare concerns offshore. Logical argument has to disagree with that proposition. I am all for logical argument.

David

*Do we have to be barbaric? Could we please go with the method that involves the quickest and least painful way of slaughtering the animals?*

Foxy, surprisingly enough the science is not at all clear on this
one. Its really a neuroscience question, but so far I have seen
no clear evidence of them providing the answers.

Forget the religious arguments for once, around Australia plenty
of people cut sheeps throats every day, for their own meat or
for animal welfare reasons, to put them down.

Its my understanding that we faint when blood pressure drops.
If we stand up in a hurry, we can feel faint as blood flows to the
legs etc. If the heart stops, blood pressure drops, we collapse
like a stone.

When we faint, our brains still function, we are just not aware
of anything. Cutting a sheeps throat just below the brain means
immediate drop of blood pressure, so I would like to know how
soon it takes for them to become unaware, which nobody can answer.
IMHO its just a second or three, there is some evidence, but no
clear scientific evidence that I am aware of.

Sheeps brains are actually quite small. A gun shot can damage
parts of the brain, but not kill the animal.

The last Govt called for a scientific enquiry to answer these
questions, which I think is fair enough.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/03/1995804.htm

.

David, I'm certainly not arguing for live exports. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. What I'm arguing for is for the status quo to remain with respect to pre-stunning animals prior to slaughter by any means.

Singer was correct in my view to argue that ritual requirements are secondary to humane concerns if animals must be killed. Pre-stunning animals seems to me to be an effective compromise that should be maintained in Australia, and encouraged elsewhere.

Yes, a few farm and game animals are killed by slitting their throats while they're conscious, but these are relatively few in number compared to those processed in abattoirs in Australia. I have also known quite a few macho types who get their jollies by running down feral pigs with dogs, thence leaping on them and finishing them off with a knife in an orgy of masculine blood-letting.

That activity is, apparently, quite legal in Australia. And it's certainly not done in the name of religion. Let's keep our perspectives here.

P.S. I am also an advocate of logical, consistent argument.

This Halal issue is of serious concern to me because the way I see it and the way things are going - we are all going to be FED the Muslim religion and ways, whether we like it or not.... Once we are all eating Halal we are halfway Muslim. This is of serious concern....

We are being denied the choice as more and more meat becomes Halal meat and more and more food outlets use only Halal products to make the Muslims happy. But what about people who are not Muslim? I dont want to have to eat religious Halal meat...What about the rights of non Muslims in Australia?

Non Muslims should refuse to eat Halal meat and not allow Australia to become a Halal slaughtering country as it is not part of our ways, beliefs and culture.

The only argument against traditional slaughter is cause 'it's icky'...or anti-religious. You guys should put your energies into helping "domesticated" animals that are being neglected. Much more worth while.

Hi Everybody

Please stick to the issue as David, Morgan Yabby, pointed out.

This is only about what is best for the animals.

I have met and worked with some wonderfully compassionate Muslims mostly from overseas.

They were `excited` about the prospect of introducing Gas to put Animals to sleep before slaughter.

Jolanda raised the issue earlier based on we have rights to be informed what we eat.

Labeling isn’t Australia’s strong point. To argue this would be unfair to Muslim or Halal products unless it applied to all...

There are many Halal Slaughtering Abattoirs in Australia but do they have anything in common not really=
http://www.albalagh.net/halal/kosher_meat.shtml

*I haven’t made my mind up. Peter Singer *may have? Done research.

Reading comments he `seemed` to support the theory not to pre stun.

I don’t embrace some of Singers ideas but he’d had at` least had `believe` that it was kinder.

Its curious Islam and Muslims would suddenly embrace the Jews and their laws especially when it comes to Halal Slaughter or food products.

“Although it is the argument they are to use
The question is why?

Speaking with abattoir workers “all!” claimed kosher horrified them.

. Said without a doubt the! Most cruel method, and that Halal was kinder but the bolt was the all round kindest.

Q So why don’t Muslims just use a bolt gun you may ask?

A Because it damages the scull of the Animal prior to slaughter there for not being an offering of a perfect sacrifice or offering to Allah [In Brief]

Q-What is pre stunning
A It is a electric shock that renders the Animal unconscious before slaughter.

Q So why do some Muslims like pre stunning?

A Because it damages the scull and is more work intensive.

It is also a Western Culture requirement which some older school Muslims don’t like.

Let’s face it many older people do not like change. That’s normal.

I have invited the X President of AFIC to join us in this thread

and will invite the current President along with the head Halal CEO also.

Correction- I do apolizise

Q So why do some Muslims `not` like pre stunning?

A Because it damages the scull and is more work intensive.

See=http://vein.library.usyd.edu.au/links/Essays/2005/nandha.html
Animal Welfare Science Essays 2005

Copied from Science Essays
These essays represent students' work and the views expressed in them are not necessarily those of the Faculty of Veterinary Science or the University of Sydney.

Leading sheep to slaughter: religious versus non-religious slaughter methods
By Karishma Nandha
Introduction
In most countries conventional slaughter of sheep requires either electric or captive bolt stunning prior to slaughter. However, there is an exception to this rule when considering slaughter of sheep in Jewish and Muslim religions, as pre-slaughter stunning is not performed (RSPCA, 2005; Stevenson, 1999).

This has created an ongoing animal welfare debate over the various slaughter methods used. The following paper aims to review recent studies in slaughter methods which promote welfare of sheep.

Discussion
According to the Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC), pre-slaughter stunning benefits an animal as it reduces stress endured from pre-slaughter handling and the induction of unconsciousness at the time of slaughter (Anil et al., 2004).

Jewish (Shechita) and Muslim (Halal) methods of slaughter require maximum bleed out after the slaughter of sheep for the meat to be religiously acceptable.

Both methods sever the trachea, oesophagus, carotid arteries and jugular veins with a single incision. One main argument against pre-slaughter stunning according to Jewish and Muslim factions is that the stunning process can hinder blood loss, as stunning supposedly changes the muscular, neurological and cardiovascular status of the animal (Anil et al., 2004).

Yet, recently in some Muslim abattoirs, stunning prior slaughter has become acceptable, though according to Muslim faith the animal is not to be killed before exsanguination (Grandin and Regenstein, 1994).

http://www.worldhalalforum.org/

Its all a little mellodramatic, don't you think. All living things have the right to live in peace, but when it comes to exporting, and lets not forget we need to eat, but the slaughter must be stopped at home.
We have the gift of speech, but what if all living things think? I just wonder what they would say.
Let me give you this insight. The human race is at the top of the food chain, and look what we have done to our own kind. We have shot and raped, enslaved, tortured, cut up and disemboweled because of one simple fact! We are just animals ourselves.
There are so many lines we can or cant cross, I just wonder why we have separated ourselves from the big picture. I generally don't think much of human beings, and we are all filled with our own self righteousness or ego, or junkmailness, thats a new word I have invented, hahaha, but the minority are always an easy target.
I guess thats human. Iam not your friend, mate, or anything else for that matter. Talking with a open mind is my crime. What is yours.
But back to the point! I say NO to exports.

At the early period when Kosher killing was introduced, it would have been the most humane way of killing an animal. I know little about Halal slaughter other than what has been explained here. But I do agree this type of killing an animal is inhumane.

As for sheep, I have been told that they often die of a heart-attack before the actual killing method is used. The stress all animals undergo before death must be quite appalling.

I found this site would explains that the most humane killing of stock is by a bullet and in a precise position. Unless stunning is also precisely administered it is not effective. How much real care is taken when stunning is done? The term "stunning" does not inspire confidence that the animal feels nothing.
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/96796/humane-destruction-of-stock.pdf.

A stand must be taken against inhumane treatment of animals, not just the way they are killed, but also the environment in which they are raised. This is one and the same problem.

Hopefully Halal killing is banned. I am sure devout Muslims, as do other religious groups, would willingly forgo meat as a demonstration of their faith.

*But back to the point! I say NO to exports.*

Evolution, you are free to say that. You are also free to buy
every sheep and slaughter them right here. They are sold
at market price.

What you are not free to do, is deny other people making
a living, without good reason. Given that there is no
slaughter capacity for these animals in Australia, shooting
them and burying them in pits is the other option. Will
you pay producers the difference of their loss? We are
constantly told that farming should be a business like any
other, yet when farmers adopt sound business practises,
you want to deny them that right.

I know of cases of hobby farmers trying to shoot cows with a
.22, she'd jump 4 fences, its one nightmare. In Australia
people regurarly cut sheeps throats for their own meat supply.
I know of hobby farmers starving stock, letting them run out
of water, feed, etc. Nobody hardly says boo. But a whole
movement is absolutaly obsessed with the live trade, who buy
their stock in the open market and in fact help avoid alot of
suffering, in times of drought etc. All that is forgotten in
this debate.

Animal abuse cruelty should be fully investigated and no reason, including religion, should be allowed to cause animals unnecessary suffering.
This is a good discussion to have especially now the govt is investigating the issue.

Unless research proves that the halal slaughtering method is less cruel than the Australian method, the Australian law should be obeyed.
I am not at all convinced by the links that show that suffering doesn't last longer than half a minute or so.
Animals don't suffer this long with the pre-stunning method.

Do Muslims know about the research that was done some time ago about the volume of blood loss in stunned vs non stunned animals- there was no difference.

And this was counted from the time the throats were cut. We all know that even the cutting of a throat isn't always as smooth and quick -one quick cut- as they make it out to be. A lot of sawing is going on.

If there is no difference in blood loss between the two groups of animals, then what objection could there be about stunning animals?

Here's the link to the abstract of this article titled:
Comparison of Halal slaughter with captive bolt stunning and neck cutting in cattle: exsanguination and quality parameters
http://tinyurl.com/37k56q

If we have to have an "immigrants' test" why not include a question about the legal slaughtering method in Australia.
Q "Is halal slaughter without pre-stunning allowed?"
A "NO"

As this threads progresses we will share some of our work Australia with Muslim Leaders going back almost six years.

For Now You may refer to this thread

http://www.halakindmeats.com/


I would like to let this thread run a little longer to give Muslim reps and people supporting kosher slaughter every opportunity to respond by posing their comments before posting further conflicting docs.

Perhaps I have missed something.

I do not recall any media releases or voices of great concern being raised from either the Jewish Community or Muslim Community in Australian about Australian laws being cruel to animals.

I know there has been a long history of differences and even complaints from Muslims for ‘religious purposes’

So here’s thing thing .= If being kind to animals is part of the Koran, and if Muslims now say its cruel ,to pre stun, then how could they have produced millions of dollars of Halal products without any complaints about this cruelty that is Harman[ Unlawful] To Muslims?

I know in the past they have been upset that they had to pre stun while some Kosher was allowed to go without stunning and quite rightly so.


Celiva expressed we only have one lot of laws in Australia regardless of religion.

What suddenly now has happened to bring this on?


Is there any other reason what so ever other than Animal Welfare alone that would encourage the Muslim leaders Of Australia to change the standards now?

What also could make the Government consider ignoring all past RSPCA codes of Animal Welfare to turn this country into an Islamic Ritual Slaughter country?

Especially when plenty of other Muslims have insisted that pre stunning is widely accepted amongst most Muslims.

Is The Government or indeed the Muslim Leaders requesting this change to our laws aware of any other reason what so ever that this request has been lodged to the Australian Government?

Can them Government or Muslims Leaders assure the public that this will not result in a monitory gain for anybody.

Can they assure us it is `only` and `solely` about the `Welfare of `Animals?

C J Morgan,

I am with you. Sorry if it didn’t show. As I have said previously, animal welfare in Australia is no where near perfect i.e. using dogs etc. It seems the problem is brought about by selectively anthropomorphising our interaction with animals other than human. We classify them as pets, stock or ferrel and this gives licence to treat them differently. But, sadly, justifying brutal actions one would not normally be involved with is a human trait. Slavery, how women have been treated, (and still are) gay bashing etc, were and are all justified on some faulty premise or other.

Halal killing of live animals in a predominately Islamic country is only a part of problem. It is how the animals are treated before death, where there are no proper animal welfare guidelines, rules or laws. This problem substantially increased the negatives around live transport, besides the transporting in itself. But this is getting away from Halal killing in Australia.

This thread goes beyond my responsibility in representing the AFA. It was only the religious component, which dragged me into the discussion. I’ll leave you good people to sort it out.

David

StG,

Most well rounded people can ‘put their energies’ into multiple causes. The world would be a lot sadder place if they didn’t.

It is a pity their is not so much concern about the slaughter of unborn children as their is whales and sheep. If we are just animals it makes all those eating meat cannibals. In my opinion animals should be killed with the least amount of pain and distress.

"Yet, recently in some Muslim abattoirs, stunning prior slaughter has become acceptable, though according to Muslim faith the animal is not to be killed before exsanguination (Grandin and Regenstein, 1994)."

This is required so the heart keep pumping so all blood is expelled from the body.

I agree that there should be no live exports. Whilst the Koran states non-cruelty to animals, this appears to have a very liberal interpretation in Muslim countries. European countries, whilst having codes about pets, are also far from good models in slaughtering of animals.

Many years ago I lived quite some time in a very moderate Islamic, but mult-racial, multi-religious country. It was successful. This was because there was a dominant culture, Islam, which everyone respected. It was not onerus. People freely practiced their religion.
The only requirement was that no attempt was permitted to convert Muslims to a different religion, to do so meant immediate explusion from the country; also, out of respect for Muslims, non-Muslim women didn't wear skimpy clothing around them. This may appear a deviation from the issue of slaughter of animals and live exports, but it is not.

The dominant culture in this country expresses concern about animal cruelty. This is an entirely civilized philosophy, not capricious, nor intended to upset people. The problem of
animal cruelty in this country has not been entirely addressed, however, what we do have in place must be respected by all. I do not even see the need for discussion with other groups.

Hello Everyone.

Working my way down list to comment on your posts.
Might take some time and thanks to all.


Atheist Foundation of Australia Inc,David- Good to see you in this very important thread for the Animals

Celivia, = Very interesting comment.

DEMOS, - In hindsight yes you are correct. I will request moderator add the Kosher to the title. Later we could discuss full back ground of Kosher.

It’s interesting to note that as Muslims pointed out there seemed to be `one rule for Kosher [Jews] and `another for Halal= Muslims most unfair.

“Especially for Animals.” Maybe originally it was a Bush policy, who knows. {Joke]

Jolanda, you opened a thread about this a long time ago.
The animals would appreciate your assistance firstly and we can discuss possible reasons or motives for changing laws later If Any. Ok

I_Spy, = Thank you. All cruelty to animals makes me boil also.
I will go back to your other comment asp

Cuphandle, said

I remember not too long ago a Christian Archbishop state that "animals had no spirituality!"......what a load of rubbish!..

Pale replies.

Umm Did he now. Well that might explain why `some` Church Leaders turn their backs on Animal Cruelty.
BTW Do you have to have umm, `Spirituality` to feel pain and stress?
[ ps if there is a God please don’t send me Bozie too this thread.

Perhaps we could ask David from the Atheist Foundation of Australia Inc, to give us some guidance.

Many Christian Churches now do blessings for Animals. I guess he’s not one of them Ah.

Good Heavens Cuphandle is he actually saying Muslims are the only ones concerned about Animal Welfare?

How Extraordinary.

Perhaps you may care to email him and other Church Leaders so they may comment if they wish about the kindest slaughter methods.

It may even end up being be in his churches best interests.

FYI. RSPCA Dr Hugh Wirth addressed the Press National Press Club and stated that until Church leaders educate their flock and speak out for Gods own creatures nothing will change. See=

http://www.livexports.com/hughwirth.html

TOBECONTINUED

David, I think its `religion.`

Refering to the above post.

This may explain ` why Church Leaders of Australia were the `only ones` who sat back with mouths wide shut after five separate segments of utter barbaric cruelty was aired on 60 Minutes regarding live animal exports.



Silly me I always thought it was the money that they got from Government by way of grants but there you go the good old Archbishop has sorted all of that.



Not So with the X President of AFIC =Muslim Leaders...

In stark contrast he put out a Media Release asking the Government and the media `to be responsible` when reporting the real reasons for live animal exports and addressing pre stunning and requirements of slaughter.



He was concerned for the animals and insisted that Muslims readily except pre stunned Halal meat.

He further said there was no requirement for Animals to be sent alive for ritual purposes.

So one would assume there is also no reason to send them live or to change the pre stunning practice in our own country.



Muslim Leaders cared enough to try to do something. Unlike our Church Leaders.

He stated that they could be slaughtered here in one of the many Halal plants and sent chilled.

So concerned have many Muslims leaders been in the past they have asked what more they could do to open abattoirs to stop animals being sent alive after to closure of scores of abattoirs in Australia over the last twenty years.



Not so with our so called Christians. Shame on the Church Leaders of Australia and the Australian Government= Such Shame to bring to the innocent children of this country by our world wide reputation as barbaric cruelty.

So there you have it. One kind Muslim Leader speaking out in horror at cruelty to animals advising that most Muslims readily pre stun in Halal Abattoirs here.



Now a new Muslim Leader asking the Government to change the law to abide by the more extreme ritual slaughter standards=But why?

Are they right. Is it kinder? not to pre stun?

People against live exports. I would love to be able to help more to protect the animals and the Australian way of life but as you know my family is fighting the Government ourselves to get protection and justice for children and I do not have the time.

Children are being denied rights, they are being targeted, bullied, victimised, abused, oppressed and treated like dirt.

Humans are being denied procedural fairness and natural justice.

Why do you think that our Government will consider animal rights when they do not even consider the rights of law-abiding citizens and children?

I do not have the time to help with the animals, I have 4 children and a husband to look after, I have to work full time, I am also fighting the Government so that 'humans' can be afforded what should be their rights and treated with respect. What hope do animals have if humans have no rights and nobody cares how they are treated?

Whilst I despair at how cruel and selfish some people have become my first priority is children. I appreciate that your first priority is the animals and I wish you all the best of luck.

Education - Keeping them Honest
http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/
Our children deserve better

Runner`s comment>
In my opinion animals should be killed with the least amount of pain and distress.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 12 January 2008 10:28:10 AM


Runner, Yes I agree but I do not agree with the thing about abortion – sorry and also it is really off topic on this thread.

I read above that it was once said by Senator Andrew Bartlett when debating cruelty to animals and being interjected by other members of Parliament with a similar off topic response that he responded with this-
It would be hard if not impossible to inflict such pain by compassion Mr. speaking to something that is less than a grain of rice and unborn.

However that does not mean that Animal cruelty should be considered as a `lesser concern` or that we should not do all we can to lesson the suffering of our fellow Creatures Mr? Speaker.[Or words to that effect]

I thought to myself.

There goes a good Man*



Danielle,Hi You said>

At the early period when kosher killing was introduced, it would have been the most humane way of killing an animal. I know little about Halal slaughter other than what has been explained here. But I do agree this type of killing an animal is inhumane.

Taryn replies>

I can see your heart is in the right place. May I point out that you said you know nothing of Halal Slaughter however you agreed it was inhumane.
As Yabby said, Lets get the right answers for the animal’s sake.
Also the public have no idea what (Grandin and Regenstein, 1994).
[It’s important to speak in terms they follow.]

Foxy Said
I'm with PALE&IF and the RSPCA on this one. `thanks` Foxy. Love to Sky

Evolution, said

But back to the point! I say NO to exports.

Hi Evolution, actually it’s not about live exports .

And Yabby- Taryn

Yabby, you said to Evolution>

Will you pay producers the difference of their loss?
Taryn asks, ```` Is is it fair households pay to subsidize live exports?

Why not help Muslims to slaughter `here` by SAME assistance?

hello

This was sent with permission from the Author Trish Brown.

Visit to a Halal Abattoir

On 14 August 2003 I met the Chief Executive Officer and managers of the largest meat processing company south of Perth. The company operates an abattoir as well as a processing and packaging operation.

During our meeting, we exchanged views on the live animal export trade. I emphasised that PACAT’s major concern is the cruelty of the trade and the unaddressed animal welfare issues which were endemic right throughout the trade, from the farm gate to the final destination overseas. In particular, we discussed the observation reports of slaughter procedures overseas, and agreed that methods used overseas are unacceptably inhumane and cannot compare to out strict Australian procedures.

I outlined PACAT’s agenda, which is to convince the Federal government to phase out this trade and replace it with processed meat to all the overseas markets. The cruelty issue alone have not stopped the trade in the past and no doubt will stop the trade in the future. But by expanding the meat processing industries throughout Australia, there would be more employment for Australians in all aspects of the meat processing industries; value-adding to our export industry; and an end to the inhumane live animal export trade.

The CEO, who is on the Meat Processing Taskforce (MPT) which is formed early this year, verified that he had read PACAT’s report which had been sent to him, and which outlined the adverse economic impacts of the live trade on the meat processing industry.

He stated that his company, which exports to the Middle East, Asia, Japan and the USA, currently employs between 350 - 400 staff and has been operating under the capacity for years. He stated that the overseas markets for Halal meat cannot be met because the live trade gets first preference from the livestock sales yards. But he said that if the company had a consistent supply of cattle all year round, they could increase their workforce by another 200 and operate at full capacity seven days a week.

Continues next post

Continued

Apparently there are four other combined Halal abattoir processing companies in Western Australia, handling cattle, sheep and goats, and they are all operating under capacity. There are approximately 64 abattoirs operating in Western Australia. Many of these abattoirs can only employ their staff for 2 - 3 days per week. All have supply problems due to the live trade.

When our meeting concluded I was taken to the Quality Assurance Manager’s office and given the regulations and procedures for the Halal slaughter to read. Then we both went to the clothing store to put on the regulation white coat, rubber boats and paper cap before being admitted into the abattoir.

I was amazed at the size of the abattoir operation. It was unbelievably clean and the walls, fixtures and fittings were all finished in stainless steel. The floor staff were standing on platforms and attending to particular tasks on the assembly line of hanging carcasses. We walked past them to the very end of the building and arrived at the stunning box where the animals are stunned.

The box is made of stainless steel and it faces toward Mecca. Only one animal at a time is in the box and it cannot see the hanging carcasses. Its head is the only part that is visible. The person conducting the stunning is a trained slaughterman. The person undertaking the ritual slaughter, is a Muslim slaughterman.

I witnessed the bolt gun being placed to the middle of the cow’s forehead. The animal was not stressed and it actually appeared curious because it did not know what was happening. I was only an arm’s length away from its head.

The side door dropped down automatically away from the box as the unconscious animal collapsed. There was no sound and no movement from the animal. The Muslim slaughterman chanted in Arabic as he grasped the head and severed the cow’s windpipe and carotid artery. The whole process lasted no longer that six seconds. I was told that the prayer chanted translates as: “In the name of God, most gracious, most merciful.”

Continued

I left the abattoir feeling somewhat numb and saddened, however, I can honestly say that Australian abattoirs are no doubt far better places for an animal to end its life than the overseas slaughterhouses where inhumane treatment and brutality is accepted as the norm.

After shedding my abattoir clothing, I was taken to meet the staff-training manager, who showed me the training program documents. He explained that the top two training priorities are animal welfare and safety. His company employs eight full-time Muslim slaughterman and thirty-five Australian slaughtermen, as well as butchers, process workers, packers, outside staff, vets, stockman and so forth.

The Muslim slaughterman have been recruited from an Islamic body called Halal Sadiq Services. They have to be registered and have current qualification cards certifying their accreditation with Sadiq Services as well as the Perth Mosque Inc. The slaughterman as well as all other abattoir staff have to pass written and oral tests about every aspect of their jobs prior to employment.

All vets, meat inspectors, and processing activities are overseen by the AQIS VOIC vet (Australian Quarantine Inspection Services, Veterinary Officer in Charge) who verifies that the meat is Halal (meaning ‘lawful’ in Arabic).

The company’s emphasis on live animal welfare commences from the day the cattle are unloaded from the trucks until the day they are put down. The company owns the very large irrigated paddocks that surround the buildings. When the cattle are unloaded, they are watered, fed and rested and every animal given a health check.

I than returned to the main office where I had another quick chat to the CEO, who was interested to know what I thought about my tour of the abattoir section of the company operations. The company’s position in regard to the live trade is that the meat processing industry needs to be allowed to compete on a level playing field. This is not the case at present.

To be Contunied

Continued

For example, there are too may costs imposed on the meat processing industry that are not imposed on the live trade, and too much additional government support for the live trade, that is not available to the processing industry.

We agreed to keep in touch with one another. I was asked not to mention the name of this company, no doubt due to the Halal butcher shop fire recently and concern about sabotage arising from racial hatred and ignorance. Several days later I sent a letter to the CEO of the company, to think him and his managers for their time, cooperation and courtesy.

Trish Brown

Thank You Trish Brown
I would like to say Trish Browns Amazing work and her letter were written years ago.
A total inspiration to all of us.

Perhaps we really need to look outside the square we have lived in.
If we are to put Animal Welfare first and foremost above all else can we afford not to exploy the possiblity we are wrong perhaps?

Lets as Yabby said keep an open mind.

Working under these new guidelines it would also enforce the RSPCA recomendations that Animals should be slaughtered as close to their place of origen as possible.

That would be a win win for Animal Welfare not to mention jobs for regional outback and aboriginal people, including tree change familys.

I like the sound of this possibilty

Lets however wait to see who is right and who is wrong.

I am all for the most kind method

*He stated that the overseas markets for Halal meat cannot be met because the live trade gets first preference from the livestock sales yards.*

Hehe, meat processors would be rubbing their hands with glee,
over a girl like Trish :)

If these people have staff and markets as claimed, why arn't they
bidding on the livestock? Why do sheep that make 60$ on a boat,
make 20$ in the saleyards if they don't go on a boat?

Why are beef farmers in WA screaming for another meatworks, as their
returns are ridiculously low, compared to ES prices? Why are sheep
not going to the live trade, worth so much less then Eastern States
sheep?

I'll give you an example of the WA market. 2 years ago I sold some
lambs, that were very large and in very good condition. "Ah" said
the processor, "they were too fat, we'll pay you 35$", end of story.
So I rang Elders in Ballarat on the same day, to get a quote for
the same weight, same fat score, same everything. "110$ is the
price right now for those lambs in the East" said the Elders man.

If things were as claimed in Trish's story, why don't local processors
pay at least Eastern States prices? Quite simple, processors have
made it plain that they are not a charity, they will buy livestock
as cheap as possible. Farmers, to escape the tentacles of a savage
processing industry, can either truck them East or put them on
a boat.

Every time there is a hickup in the live trade, huge numbers of
livestock are trucked thousands of km east. Now thats a long trip.
I'd rather send my lambs on a boat, where they have feed, water,
can move about and lie down and eat all the food they want. There
is a vet on board, etc. Mind you, I do specify which company, I want
the best boats for my lambs, so they go on Siba ships

Taryn

"I can see your heart is in the right place. May I point out that you said you know nothing of Halal Slaughter however you agreed it was inhumane."

I assumed Kosher and Halal slaughter to be very similar. Can you explain the differences?

2500 years ago, when the rules of kosher were made, it was said that the animal must have split hooves and chew it's cud. 2500 years later we have biological knowledge. The only species of animals that have split hooves and chew their cud, also have a certain artery that goes directly to their brain, as opposed to their heart - unlike all other species (including humans). It is said that cutting this vein results in a painless death, because the animal becomes instantly unconscious. On the other hand, slaughtering other species by this method causes much suffering.

I cannot evaluate this information. However, whilst recognising people's beliefs, I do not subscribe to compromising any gains we have achieved in animal welfare - which have, indeed, been a long time coming - for any religion.

Yabby

There, there, poor little lamb. Don’t upset yourself.

I think the aim of that post was a look into a Halal Abattoirs to see how the animals are treated before and during slaughter.

I can understand of course your close bond with Elders Yabbs, because they only talk in terms of figures too.

Perhaps you are all from the same paddock. Anyway we mustn’t go off post it’s unfair to the others.

Just before I go and speaking of your friends Elders, AWB etc, would you mind forwarding these onto them from the Australian public and the rest of the world please.

note- `No` Veggie extreme groups involved. No contact with these people. How’s is that Yabbs independent

enough for you?

http://www.halakindmeats.com/elders.html

http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php

Media Release

24 February 2006

Australian Muslims Are Against
Animal Cruelty

The President of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, Dr. irresponsibly in misinforming the Australian public about the real reasons for live exports.

Dr. Ameer Ali said that Muslims are primarily concerned to ensure that the animal is slaughtered in accordance with the Islamic Shariah, and that can be done in Australia under the Australian Government supervised Muslim Slaughter Program (AGSMS) and we want the Australian public to koww that we do not agree to animal cruelty.

He further said that Muslims in the Middle Eastern countries readily accept frozen and chilled lamb and mutton from Australia, once it is Halal certified under the program.

Last year Australian lamb meat exports to the Middle East was up 36% to a record 14,052 Tonnes, and Australian mutton meat export to the Middle East was up 24% in the same period to 36,051 Tonnes (ref. Farmonline News 1 Feb 2006). This represents the equivalent of more than 2 million sheep which were slaughtered in Australia for the Middle Eastern Muslim customers.

Dr. Ali said that the Australian Muslims does not support the cruel treatment of animals prior to slaughter, that has been documented in Egypt as the Qur`an dictates that animals should be treated with kindness.

http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

Hello I Spy- You said

My point exactly. So would quoting the words of Peter Singer help or hinder?

Pale replies

Interesting question. Possibly hinder. Personally I only exchanged emails with the man and found him to be truly arrogant. Still I respect his name and dedication- I am told. ` A tad odd I thought.

I Spy said

is there scientic evidence that supports pre stunning is unwarranted?

Pale replies.

Apparently there are claims new research has been done in Germany.

CJ Morgan said>

Ah yes, but if we ban halal slaughtering in Australia, what does that do to the arguments of those who wish to ban live exports of sheep etc to Muslim countries? Are you suggesting that we don't export meat to Muslim countries, alive or dead?

Pale Relies

This is the million dollar question. I am not sure of the answer as you have rightfully pointed out it has all sorts of possible twists and turns.

I don’t know anymore than you do and we are asking the public to help keep and eye out for the animals because this could be really good for the animals or horribly bad and a huge step backwards in animal welfare.

This is completely different to all our earlier discussions and projects working with AFIC.

We were stunned. I was personally disappointed to be honest.

In the past we had talks with other Muslim delegates and discussions about building the world’s first successful Gas plant for larger beasts as well as sheep goat etc
See.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/submissions.html

CJ Morgan said

Are you suggesting that we don't export meat to Muslim countries, alive or dead?

Pale replies

No certainly not. We are a main stream bunch of ordinary folk. We as everybody else want to see Animals killed as close to their place of origan to comply with RSPCA recommendations.

I suppose also I can’t help but wonder if the industry and Government have put their heads together to say Australia accepts Ritual slaughter. I assume they would then argue there is no case to argue against live exports.

Danielle

I have read someof your posts on other topics and find member of great interest to me personally.

While you are waiting for Taryn I thought you might like these few links.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/03/1995804.htm

http://www.albalagh.net/halal/kosher_meat.shtml

Thank You Yabby.

It is the amazing work of Dr Temple Grandin`s Her book was a best seller in USA. The lifes story of this truely amazing women is worth a read even if you ae not particially interested in Animal Welfare.

http://www.grandin.com/index.html

Recommended Ritual Slaughter Practices

This is the Work of temple Grandins=
Ritual slaughter is slaughter done according to the religious requirements of either the Jewish or Muslim religious faith. The animal is slaughtered, without being stunned, with a razor sharp knife. When the cut is done correctly, the animal appears not to feel it. From an animal welfare standpoint, the major concern during ritual slaughter are the stressful and cruel methods of restraint (holding) that are used in some plants. Progressive slaughter plants use devices to hold the animal in a comfortable, upright position. Unfortunately, there are some plants which use cruel methods of restraint such as hanging live animals upside down. At Grandin Livestock Systems, we believe that the practice of hanging live cattle and calves upside down should be eliminated.

Time required for cattle to lose sensibility
Principles of Low Stress Restraint
Maintaining acceptable animal welfare during Kosher or Halal slaughter
Ritual Slaughter Tips
ASPCA Pen for Ritual Slaughter
Schematic Details of the ASPCA Pen for Ritual Slaughter
Conveyor Restrainer Systems
Small Restraint Systems
A Discussion For Meat Scientists
Conservative Jewish Law and Standards on shackling and hoisting
Translated article on Kosher slaughter from a religious journal in Israel
Kosher Meat from Uruguay
Answers to questions about cattle insensibility and pain during kosher slaughter and analysis of the Agriprocessors video
Evaluation of Methods of Restraint for holding (fixation) of Cattle,Calves, and Sheep for kosher and halal slaughter

I am away for a week Danielle see all on return
You behave yourself while I am gone Yabbs and no porkies please.

Why do we have to have all this hoo-haa and garbage simply because a bunch of immigrants want to change the system to suit their own parochial and barbaric practices.

If they don`t like to live in a predominantly Christian country with it`s own unique set of values and are NOT prepared to adapt or integrate sensibly, but instead would like to see all of us our knees bowing to Mecca and compelling our women to wear burkhas, then I would invite them to return to their country of origin where they can practice their Islamic ways to their hearts content and speedily attain their "Promised Paradise"!

I have heard a few "well oiled" and supposedly influential members of the Islamic faith stating that their Quoran does not allow them to kill other human beings!......NOT BAD for a religous group of fanatics who run around blowing themselves up and/or killing large numbers of other human beings in the name of Jihad!

I am sorry for any indication of racial intolerance, but somebody HAS to say it, before we are all living in "Rocket Launcher" towers!

Cuphandle
Didnt pale ask you not to do that. I have seen you care about animals by your posts.
If you really care then you will not say things like that.

Not all Muslims are people involved in terror for goodness sake.

Some are wonderful eople including my dear neighbours.

Sure nobody liked the world trade but do grow up and realise that they are mad evil people working for amad evil bunch which most certainly does not include all Muslims.
Nothing like it.

If? It turns out to be that they havent got any real evidence to dis prove our research that pre stunning iskinder then it wont happen

If Kevin Rudd was stupid enough to allow this change and it wasnt in the best interests of animals he wouldnt se the next elections to the polls . His party would be bombared with claims of cruelty under the Rudd Government and he surley would not survive it.

On the other hand we should not pre judge.

Lets se what research they put up.

Please dont get this thread closed down if you care about animals
Thanks all I am asking.

I hope to see you in a week everybody as I am going with the other pale people.
Maybe someone would be kind enough to mind the thread ?

Hi all
As I understand it, halal and kosher slaughter provisions came into being when it was about animals in very small numbers; "one-offs", for want of a better description. What Singer, and lots of other experts, are saying basically is that it cannot be done properly or humanely in the huge, industrial scale, assembly line fashion in which animal slaugher happens today. Watch PETA's video of its Agriprocessors investigation for a sickening illustration of this. They filmed and documented cattle still trying to get up and walk, for several minutes, with heads almost severed, blood gushing everywhere and their tracheas having been ripped out. You can't make that up, and nor would Agriprocessors be alone in such practices.
Cheers
Nicky

TarynW - Who made you the thread nazi? Cuphandle is not only free to voice his/her opinion, but is only expressing the opinion shared by many australians.

We have no say in how they treat their animals in Muslim countries, why should they be able to force their beliefs on us?

Nicky you are right. Large scale ritual killing will just not work in this country. Animal welfare aside, can you imagine how it would slow down the kill lines? They will never go for that!

Imagine what it would be like for the animals waiting in line. Without stunning there would be vocalisations, kicking and jerking while the poor animal fights for life. How much stress would those waiting feel?

For anyone who has doubts about the rights and the wrongs of animal slaughter, be it Halal or conventional slaughter,....I would strongly suggest a VERY short visit to a fully operational abattoir, preferably when loads of cattle, sheep and horses are arriving to await their "promised paradise"!

The animals react unbelievably when they smell the blood and the death that permeates the atmosphere around the slaughterhouse! Anybody who maintains that these animals DO NOT know what awaits them needs to seek psychiatric attention!.....needless to say that management, employees and the suppliers of the livestock will all tell you that the animals really don`t know what is going to happen to them!.....that allows these people to sleep soundly in their beds whilst making money from the animals demise!

Again I say NO to Halal slaughter and I will never condone any foreign nation telling me that I have to accept it,.....after all is said and done, the whole issue is NOT just about religous extremes, but also predominantly about that "magic" dollar which makes it just another of the many money-making machines!.....We should be phasing out this dreadful occupation, NOT pandering to foreigners whose long range plan is to take over this country!.....and for anyone who has doubts about that, then I would suggest that they find out exactly what our close neigbours have allegedly been teaching their children in school?....and I will give you a clue "South Irianjaya"!

I will state publicly that this is not about racial vilification, but simply preservation of the relative independence of my country and please believe me when I say that I am very concerned for our future, as all responsible and caring people should be!

Hi all

To return this thread to its origins, is there reliable information that anyone has asked the Australian government to overturn current legislation/codes of practice on ritual (unstunned) slaughter? The only concrete information I have seen is that a Victorian slaughterhouse (let's call these places for what they are) got an exmption from AQIS to do it - you guessed it - for a Middle East export contract.

I understand too that at some point there was a compromise reached that animals could be stunned split seconds after their throats were cut. As for not exporting meat to the Middle East, tens of thousands of tonnes of Australian slaughtered meat (under the prevailing conditions) is exported there every year; far, far more than the trade in live animals is worth.

SIG, your comment was interesting about "domestic" animals - I am assuming you mean cats and dogs, but you should be awaye that sheep, cattle, pigs, goats, chickens etc ARE domestic animals. Why are dogs and cats more worthwhile? All animals feel hunger, thirst, heat and cold, pain and fear just the same. You can do things to "farmed" animals that would land you in jail if you did it to dogs and cats.

To Yabby, I say again - if I cut your leg off while you are conscious you are going to feel it a hell of a lot more than if you are unconscious. And this debate was never intended to be about where you get the biggest bucks for your unfortunate lambs, was it?

And Taryn - you are entitled to your views about Muslims, but 9/11 and Bali (and other like incidents) did it for me.

Nicky

*if I cut your leg off while you are conscious you are going to feel it a hell of a lot more than if you are unconscious. And this debate was never intended to be about where you get the biggest bucks for your unfortunate lambs, was it?*

Nicky, AFAIK the Victorian situation came up as they had an order from Israel for
kosher lamb. No kosher, no order, as I understand it.

Nicky, cutting a leg off is a little different to surprise and then losing awareness
due to the drop in blood pressure, when your throat is slit. Its time this was
answered scientifically, as the one study that was done in Germany, shows
results a little different then expected. It’s a neuoscience question and that
is who needs to answer it.

http://www.mustaqim.co.uk/halalstudy.htm

To me there is a big difference between sheep and cattle, for a number
of reasons.

Sure money comes into the whole debate. It’s a living for some. A lot of those
livestock spend most of their lives relatively free to do as they please, until
their time is up. Sadly we can’t keep them all, or they would starve to death
as in nature.

If we look at the moral argument, what about those little slaves that you
keep and call pets? They are your slaves after all, as Pericles wisely points
out. You call the shots, all day every day. You lock them in apartments
all day, put them on chains, wonder why they become neurotic and chew
the furniture. Some of you dress them up, put jewellery on them, etc. etc.
When do they get to lead natural lives? They are purely there for your
benefit and you can dump them when you are tired of them.

In many ways, a lot of farm livestock are far better off then all your
pets. Whether the end takes 1 second or 5 seconds, personally I
don’t think is a major issue. We all have to face it one day.

Hi Yabby
I take your point - to an extent. Sheep and cattle (do you mean they are different from each other or different from cats and dogs?) do live relatively okay lives (unless you count being castrated/spayed, mulesed, tail docked, de-horned, all without anaesthetic - unlike dogs and cats) unti their "time is up", as you so quaintly put it. Tens of thousands might have spent their short, wretched lives crammed into feedlots. If they are pigs or chickens it is much worse. Then they are terrified out of their minds, trucked (or shipped) indeterminate distances to have their throats cut, possibly fully conscious and aware.

I asked my "slaves", who in fact run this household, not I, and they pointed out that on the whole, since they have gourmet-level food, were unconscious when they were spayed, get to sleep in warm beds inside the house (my bed, in fact - their choice), have never seen a chain or similar object, and will either get to die of natural causes or by painless injection - that on the whole, they prefer their lot in life. No riding on the back of a utility for these slaves either! Nor have they been left alone for more than a couple of hours (but I admit that in itself has created a certain set of problems).

I am told now that the enquiry instigated by that never to be sufficiently regretted embarassment McGauran is continuing; there has been no outcome yet. But meatworkers are very clear on the matter and do not want to slaughter animals who are not stunned, and I would suggest that they have the reasons for taking that position (beyond the usual OH&S ones).

Nite all
Nicky

Hi again all

Back to the topic and enough of the frivolity. According to Muslim precepts, a number of conditions must be complied with in order for meat not to be haram (note spelling) - included in those conditions is that the knife cannot be sharpened in the sight of the animal (or it is regarded as killing it twice), it must be a single cut, with a razor sharp knife, and the animals must not be slaughtered in the sight of one another. Nor must they have suffered or been treated cruelly before they are slaughtered. They must also be "whole" and "unmarked" (makes me wonder how they get away with all the mulesed, castrated animals they slaughter in the Middle East really, perhaps they are flexible with the truth with their customers, these butchers)

In all the material Animals Australia filmed, none of these conditions is complied with. There is clear and irrefutable evidence that blunt knives are used to hack at the animals' throats (let's not even go there with the cattle!), they have surely suffered in their (short)lives, and lots and lots are slaughtered not only in full view of one another but often on top of one another. I understand too that cutting the throat of a sheep is not that simple - all that wool does get in the way.

Just a few thoughts. Whether the kosher principles are similar I don't know but from what I have read they are.

And Yabby - claiming that live exports saves all these animals from starvation/dying of thirst because of the drought just doesn't cut it, I'm afraid. If you can't afford to look after your animals, or conditions are so unfavourable, you should not have/keep breeding them. It should be becoming clear to all but the most hardened (dumbest?) farmers that what you do is becoming less and less sustainable.

Definitely "nite" now,
Nicky

*No riding on the back of a utility for these slaves either!*

There you go Nicky, trying to understand other species through
your eyes and thoughts. I can assure you that when given the choice,
there are many times when dogs far prefer the back of a ute to the
front. Now tell me how many city dogs are locked into houses
and apartments and can’t even pee when they need to pee?

Sheep and cattle are quite happy being sheep and cattle, out
in nature, as tens of millions are. They would neither want your
bed nor your gourmet food, but prefer to hang out with herds of
their own kind, doing their thing. That includes sex and motherhood.
We don’t need to breed them, they do it all by themselves, its all
part of nature.

How do you know that they are terrified on trucks? Again projecting
your values, not understanding theirs. Shearing would be a far more
traumatic experience for a sheep, as its isolated from other sheep.
Herd animals find comfort in numbers, no matter where they are.

Yes we eat them. You’ll be eaten too, when you die. Everything is
recycled, that’s nature. I remind you that dying of natural causes can
be an extremely painful experience and agonisingly slow.

You make my point for me about Halal. Islam matters in the ME and
it would make perfect sense to use that fact to improve animal welfare
in the region, reminding them of their own religious requirements.

As to droughts Nicky, Govts can’t yet legislate for rainfall and we are
not yet much good at predicting them. So we need solutions to deal
with livestock when they do occur. Politics is all that prevents those
solutions from happening, I am sorry to say.

Hi all
I_spy and Cuphandle, you both make excellent points, and don't be bullied by anyone from your positions. Another point worth mentioning in that context is the human rights record/s in the Middle East, which they also seek to export to other countries (a young girl was murdered in an "honour killing" in Scotland in recent months). At www.liveexportshame.com you will find a news report about a young rape victim sentenced to 200 lashes and a jail term. This leaves little reason to believe that anything will change for animals in terms of of human kindness over there.

I think that until there is scientific evidence to the contrary - and Yabby, you haven't supported your statements with any that isn't especially objective or impartial, Australia should not change its regulations regarding pre-slaughter stunning. Also, Yabby, would you rather be unconscious if your throat is to be cut?

As for the "slaves" on the back of utilities, it is a dangerous and indefensible practice,. Sudden braking or a minor accident can and all too often does result in a dog being "hanged" and/or having its neck broken. There have been three recent such cases (dead dogs on the side of the road as a result of this practice) nearby. If you MUST do it the least you can do is put a harness on the dog rather than a collar and leash.

Nicky

*it is a dangerous and indefensible practice,.*

ROFL Nicky. My dogs would think that you are an old
fussing grandmother :) They jump on and off that ute
as they please, or through the window if they please,
no chains in sight anywhere.

Just because you can't do those things and enjoy them,
what makes you think that working farm dogs can't?
Your little slaves clearly can't.

Once again, its you projecting your grandmotherly fears
onto another species, when they are quite capable of
enjoying themselves and their lives, without your judgement.

I've never lost a dog yet, due to a vehicle accident.

When my time comes, frankly I don't care if it will take
1 or 5 seconds. Main thing I'm not left for days, weeks
or months, to die of natural causes, as so many people
are forced to endure. Its not a pretty sight

I spy cuphandle and anybody else FYI

Taryn was asked to post the comment= asaking everybody to retrain from racial comments- or comments that could be claimed to be racuist because I didnt want the3 thread closed as many before this one have been.
Now i have only glanced at this while waiting my flight but yes = We do have profff the Muslims have requested Halal without pre stunning be law in Australia.
As a matter of fact this iwsnt a new requests.
They asked the Government six years ago to make it possible and got a flat NO.
Although the states which have been run by ALP have allowed slaughter without any pre stunning for a long time.

Now as for comments on Bali which is off post.
I dont think any Aussie would want to see them live or enjoy anything IMOP.
After leaving stations and speaking with old abattoir workers who have seen Halal Slaughter first hand we travelled to Cains.
IMOP it wont matter what Aussies think or say soon.

Almost every shop is Asian owned as they hawk their goods which is actually illegal in our law.

The food health safety standards are both not known and equally ignored if you are brave enough to point it out to them.

By large Aussies are ignored and every single shop without fail sells Halal.

Its a far bigger problem than most are aware.
I invited Dr Ali to comment on this thread.

It is a pity he has not done so.
When I return I will post the first hand comments of the abattoir workers who saw may halal slaughters.

None of these blokes are soft touches.

Hi all
There is nothing racist about the facts.The Bali bombing and the treatment of women and dissidents (and animals) in the Middle East are a matter of (lots of) public record. I draw your attention to PALE's comments about Asians, and won't go there, beyond that.

I look forward to seeing the proof of the request from the Muslim community to slaughter unstunned animals, and the various governments' responses to it/them. Meat workers with whom I have discussed it describe it as "brutal" and "shocking". If they don't want to do it, and it is as clear that present methods are accepted in the Muslim and Jewish communities, why revert to barbarism? They import tens of thousands of tonnes of Australian slaughtered meat into the Middle East and South East Asia (incidentally, why is Australia exporting slaughter animals to Catholic countries where they are not stunned either?)

There has to be, I am informed, a special licence granted by AQIS for this purpose, and the only one to have come to light is Midfield Meats in Warnambool in Victoria. If there is demonstrable proof of it occurring elsewhere, let's see it. Several state bodies gave me the same response - it doesn't happen (except in Yabby-country).

Yabby, you may not have lost a dog through an accident on the back of a ute, but several people around here have, and just left them in the gutter. Do you not have to restrain them where you are? I believe that this is far safer, the dog may be surefooted enough to adjust to sudden braking or a collision (even if by jumping iff as you say), but in several states it is the law that they must be restrained. That was my point about a harness rather than a collar and leash. My "slaves" are both keplie/collie type crosses (they were what needed rescuing at the time), but they are quite happy jumping through the (open) doors of the car.

Can someone please explain some of these abbreviations/accronyms appearing here? IMOP and RMOP are the most recent.

Cheers
Nicky

.

*but several people
around here have, and just left them in the gutter.*

Nicky, where they left them frankly does not matter, why
they died is another question. Sounds to me like the three
dogs that you mention, died due to being chained up on
the back of utes, judging by your previous post.

There is only one reason that I know for dogs falling off
utes, that is if owners leave the their tailgates off. Thats
asking for trouble.

I think that a pencil pusher like you, frankly doesent have
the foggiest about the skills of a good farm dog. Do you
know how we tear around across rough country on farms?
Those dogs jump on and off, chasing rabbits, chasing flyblown
sheep etc, its their greatest thrill. Kelpies/Collies are
bundles of energy, wanting to burn it off. The biggest punishment
that I can give my dogs is to stop them running, when they
just want to run for miles. But then my dogs eat meat,
perhaps yours on a carrot diet, would possibly not be
as healthy as mine :)

It sounds to me that your dogs simply have to accept the
life that you dictate for them. Mine at least get to
live natural doggie lives and do natural doggie things,
they have a choice in what they want or don't want to do.

Frankly if you approached one of my dogs, who have never
even worn a collar in their lives, with one of your
harnesses, they would fall over laughing and find you
an insult to their dignity :)

Hi Yabby
I do take on board what you say, especially about the kelpie/collie types. Although mine have plenty of room to run and get out a lot had it been a matter of choice for them, they may have chosen a different life. But in both cases, they had nowhere else to go (one was about to be drowned, the other abandoned). I might do some "pencil pushing", but my dogs are a major priority in my life.

They also have a balanced "doggy" diet, including bones because I've never thought that it is the right thing to do to turn a dog into a vegetarian - although they do have some vegetables as well. Both are extremely healthy.

The dogs found on the side of the road here had broken necks (you don't need to be a vet to know that when you see it). Where I live dogs have to be restrained on the back of a ute by law; the objection I have to it is the means when it can expose them to such risk. I think that if they have to be restrained at all, it should be safely, and that to me doesn't mean a chain/collar/leash - I think a harness is safer. This is what I meant by "dangerous and indefensible" - the life your dogs have is different and I recognize that. I have seen some dogs that really looked thoroughly miserable, on very short chains on the back of utes, in howling gales and rain. One was an obviously very, very old border collie, huddled in a ball in the freezing rain.

Conversely, one day I saw a guy, who had a dog on his ute stopped at traffic lights. A thunderstorm struck, and he hopped out, grabbed his dog off the back and took it in the cabin with him (a staffie). I thought that was great.

Cheers
Nicky

In My Honest Opinion IMOP

What have dogs to you with Halal?

Never get Muslim faith people to comment at this rate.

Umm how come you haven’t heard about the request from Muslim leaders not to pre stun?

Even Yabbs posted it several weeks ago.

I actually blew a gasket and broke the MOU ties which I wouldn’t do lightly I can assure you.

We will meet and talk.I will listen. Our friends suggested last week however I had to go North. It will be soon.

You just can’t mass slaughter without sawing at the necks. You can do one or two but not thousands and millions.



Anyway re AQIS requirements= Yes your correct. That is for exporting meat. Yes you require a Halal accreditation through AQIS.
Its all terribly, cough cough umm organized. I will be going into this in great detail a little later.

Now that is not the case for domestic plants or abattoirs.

Under Labor State Governments the practice of ritual Islamic and Kosher slaughters has been allowed to take place.

In Sydney Melbourne Cairns and most of our major cities you will find 99% of all fast food outlets are already Halal.
I don’t think you will find one Kebab shop that’s Halal for starters and KFC is Halal.

Once you fully understand what the word Halal means and how it affects all products you might understand why it is so important.

BTW [By The Way] you can say it=

Pale said there were too many Asians in Cairns.

Yup the place is crawling with them.
It’s a complete take over.

If you can talk about dogs on a Halal thread then I can talk about being swamped by Asians in Cairns.

BTW speaking of you animal people - how come Bridget Bardott was absolutely delighted with the pales HKM MOU with Islamic Leaders to pre stun and slaughter here in Australia while that your lot hate the plan.
Doesn’t that tell us all something about peta and their agenda?

I mean you won’t find a bigger Animal Lover than Bridget.

Hi all
So Yabby and I got a bit sidetracked. It's not the end of the world. Thanks for clearing up one of the accronyms.

Is there any real evidence that whatever meat you say is halal in Australia has not been pre-stunned (have you read Trish Brown's Abattoir Report at www.liveexportshame.com?). I find it very hard to believe that KFC would be bothering to make any such concessions, given that it makes a killing (apologies for the pun) without it. As I said, the people with whom I have discussed the matter assure me that it's not happening, and the meatworkers themselves say they don't want to do it.

If it is going on, I think the slaughterhouses doing it should be named so that some action can be taken against them. They are breaking the law, in all states and territories (unless they had an AQIS exemption for export and that is understood to have been a "one off"). If it's happening in Queensland should your RSPCA friends not have been onto it?

Since we're up to page 11, do you not think that if your Muslim friends (speaking of being over-run) were going to make an appearance here and state their case they would have done so by now? I'm not really sure where Brigitte Bardot and PETA fit here, although PETA has been known to call in Temple Grandin for expert comment on slaughterhouse processes in the US. I think you tend to overlook the fact that both PETA and Animals Australia actively promote a frozen/carcass trade from Australia to the Middle East.

Nite all,
Nicky

Nicky fyi
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/newsletters/n354.htm

I have spoken with Rabi Gutnick and we have agreed to meet.

As we are to meet with AFIC leaders again it is my dearest wish to all sit at the table.

I am also attempting to contact Temble Gradin . [One can only ask.]

The Government review will not commence until March due to the work load over the horse influensia. Mind you the standards will be set by the Animal Welfare Comittee.

Your welcome as stated before to attend meeting. If you don’t want anyone to know who you are wear a burka.

We are not known for following grand formalities here.

Peter Thornber and Allan Sheridon will head it but the standards will be set by the Daff Animal Welfare dept.
You can contact Sally Standon fyi= 0262725411

Its only then reasonable Muslims question this double standards- Dont you think? fyi>
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Australia/eruv.htm

Nicky said
?). I find it very hard to believe that KFC would be bothering to make any such concessions, given that it makes a killing (apologies for the pun)
Pale replies.
Nicky KFC is a huge company. They service many places and the facts are that Halal is considered normal. Its a trillion dollar industry and growing. You’re certainly asking the right questions. However we are the exception in their eyes not the other way around.

Nicky said

As I said, the people with whom I have discussed the matter assure me that it's not happening, and the meat workers themselves say they don't want to do it.

Pale replies. Nicky AMIEU are not meat workers.

There is a long history of problems associated with this. Including problems with staff fighting. In Victoria for example you had a guy knife another meat worker.


Also it’s not a matter of not wanting to do it. It’s that they can’t do it if they are not a certified Muslim meat Slaughter men.

Also you’re right. Most Aussie blokes don’t approve of it.

TBC

Continued
The whole industry requires changes. We need Gas for larger beasts.

Our method isn’t fool proof. After eighty or so kills the vibration of the stun gun can step in and the slaughtermans arm aches.

Thats when its not nice. Some animals are stunned more than once. We need men rotated every eighty or so IMOP.

In order to run a successful plant you need a beast down every twelve seconds.

The problems with Halal however have been endless.

Time being a major factor.

Many large plants refused to do Halal any more a long time ago.

Also it controls live exports to a degree. [Explain later]

RSPCA do not inspect Abattoirs unless invited. RSPCA Australia wide has a MOU with the DPI State Governments and AQIS.

ALP State Governments got into a dog fight with the federal Government some time ago over this if you recall.

The only plants that were pre stunning we know for certain about were the export AQIS accredited ones and even then there was drama because some were looking the other wayfor Kosher.

Re PETA and AA. Look I mentioned Bridgett because she approves of pale HKM project.

Nicky your favorite organizations have been invited to meet with Muslim leaders here and world wide to put this program into some real action.

They both declined. That’s a fact. So to did Hugh Wirth when he was RSPCA President. WSPA still refuse.

I am not trying to be rude to you. I am just giving you facts.

The live exports have grown in strength.

I can see you’re sincere in your efforts. However you do yourself and the animals no favors by marrying yourself to PETA in your work.


Read the sub to the animal welfare Senate enquiry and you will see they were going to spend big money on looking at a gas to put these animals to sleep before the throat was cut.

As far as I am concerned it’s not overseas it’s the leadership right here in Australia that has gone wrong.

It’s the Australian Government.

Nicky said

I'm not really sure where Brigitte Bardot and PETA fit here,

I think you tend to overlook the fact that both PETA and Animals Australia actively promote a frozen/carcass trade from Australia to the Middle East.

Nicky supporting a AA peta .
"GREAT"

I will tell you what Bridgett has to do with it Nicky.

2003 we first contacted her.

Requested she write to PM Howard regarding live exports and the Cormo which she did.

Bridgett was delighted with the MOU with Muslim leaders working to form co-jointly ownded farms and plants and slaughter here.

She was even more excited about the prospect of them building gas plants for larger animals.

All of these things have asked peta and aa to be involved in and they regected.

That IS the simple truth.

We cant do the whole of this country alone!

You only have to look above Nicky at your "predicted- none reply again to see your attitude." Are you waiting on advise perhaps?

Each time we have raised ideas - such as the petition for Rudd to honour his promises= The assistance re shopping centers for suvey for pigs and letter box drops.-

Raising the issue re broken promises in Parliment. All our ideas .
Oh yes you all say good idea lets do it.

Then when run off opening another thread ignore us which is rude and praise peta.

Our members donate to other groups on a regular basis.
peta being one of them'AA another. Its a policy of ours to help others!
We are not anti peta so why are you so anti pale.?

Peta refuse to discuss any of the projects that Bridgett fully supports.

I find THAT simply amazing.

We wont be bullied and we ARE the only ones with the contacts the MOUS the plans to actually do something about live exports and Intensive farming .

Instead of AA and PETA welcoming these projects like Bridgett they have flatly refused to work with us.

Instead of being delighted we are treated as the enermy.

I find that beyond the pale