The Forum > General Discussion > For Hamas the business model is Gazans' misery.
For Hamas the business model is Gazans' misery.
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Posted by mhaze, Monday, 4 December 2023 10:01:49 AM
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Ah you mean 'unconditional surrender' to the oppressors.
Next you'll tell me that the holocaust needn't have been an actual holocaust if the Jews had've simply fallen in love with their captors and volunteered themselves for the gas chambers willingly. Jews and Israelis have become evil people with their 'never again' attitude after that episode. I don't really want to hear anything you have to say mhaze... You attempt to defend the indefensible. Go cheer on some more dead innocent women and kids. Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 4 December 2023 10:32:23 AM
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Hi Armchair Critic,
An interesting article in the New York times talks about the subject of hostages and raises a few issues. It says: "Israel's stated aim is to get back all of its remaining hostages now more than 130 soldiers and civilians while destroying Hamas and its infrastructures once and for all." "While doing it in a way that does not cause more Gaza civilian casualties than the Biden administration can defend, and without leaving Israel responsible for Gaza forever and having to pay its bills every day." "Good luck with that!" It does appear that Israel has not thought all this through. Destroying Hamas and getting its hostages back is all well and good - but no plan B - and what happens after that? The New York Times article suggests that - "Israel should call for a permanent ceasefire followed by an immediate withdrawal of all its military forces from Gaza on the condition Hamas returns all the hostages it has left, civilians, military, and any dead." "Hamas would get no Palestinian prisoners in return. Just Israeli withdrawal and a ceasefire." Straight forward and simple. But is it fair? Posted by Foxy, Monday, 4 December 2023 10:55:03 AM
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Fair would be giving back every single piece of land it stole with force, and apologising to every single man, woman and child in Gaza, whose families have all suffered the death of loved ones, begging for forgiveness and offering compensation for 75 years of unnecessary killings, hostage taking, subjugation, terror and land theft.
Then support Palestinians in having their own state on mutually agreeable terms (a big ask) and letting those people determine their own futures, as was promised to them back prior to 1917. If treating them fairly is not possible, Then settle for the next best thing: - Treat them with respect, decency and dignity. Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 4 December 2023 11:10:38 AM
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Thanks AC,
If only. Posted by Foxy, Monday, 4 December 2023 11:43:01 AM
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Dear Critic,
«but I have seen many videos of hostages that seem friendly enough with their captors, but no videos to the contrary.» The former are what Hamas forced the hostages to say while still in captivity while the latter are what they say once they were released, you probably haven't seen them because they are mainly in Hebrew, although I did point you to one in French: http://www.mako.co.il/news-military/6361323ddea5a810/Article-83713eda4d51c81026.htm?sCh=3d385dd2dd5d4110&pId=1898243326_518392 And some Hebrew ones here: http://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/bki8owfrp 85 year old Yocheved Lifshitz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGdPCTmw560 is a bit of an exception - first she tells us about her abduction where she was laid across a motorbike on her way to Gaza with the Gazan mob beating her on her ribs which made it difficult to breath, but then she reports of a good treatment. Some of it is was translated into English by her daughter. It is believed that she reported of a good treatment because her husband is still a hostage in Gaza. It was reported today that one of the 3-year-old twins, Yuli Kunio, was separated by Hamas from her twin sister and the rest of her family. --- Dear SteeleRedux, Yes, it is possible in the thick of war that hostages be killed due to imperfect intelligence, same for innocent civilians. Shît does and did happen, in fact, one day Israel received intelligence about Hamas presence in a certain building, but didn't know that there was also an Israeli hostage there: that building was bombed, the hostage's guards were killed and the hostage was only slightly injured by a brick that fell on his head. He escaped and hid for 4 days, but was then recaptured by Gazan civilians. Finally he was released at Putin's request because he was also a Russian citizen. Israel will learn from this experience and continue to improve its intelligence gathering capabilities, but as the hostages are dying of hunger and shortage of oxygen anyway, there is now little to lose. Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 4 December 2023 2:25:26 PM
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IF Hamas is so concerned about all the dead Palestinians they just need to declare that they are releasing all hostages forthwith and surrendering their forces to the IDF. Israel takes control of Gaza and humanitarian aid flows. No more Palestinian deaths. That's what you want, right?
I'm sure all those here who virtual signal by decrying the loss of life would fully support that.