For years the world incl Australia has been pouring money into Gaza to alleviate their grinding poverty, all the while most of this money has gone towards buying weapons and into the leaders' pockets.

While their people languish in poverty and are treated as human shields, the leaders of Hamas live billionaire lifestyles.

The terror group’s three top leaders alone are worth a staggering $11 billion between them and enjoy a life of luxury in the sanctuary of the emirate of Qatar.

The emirate has long welcomed the leaders of the terror group and installed them in its luxury hotels and villas at the same time as hosting a vast American military presence.

The terrorist group, which is responsible for the antisemitic Oct. 7 massacre of more than 1,400 innocent civilians in southern Israel, continues to hold 200 hostages in Gaza.

Hamas runs an office in Qatar’s capital, Doha, and leaders Ismail Haniyeh, Moussa Abu Marzuk and Khaled Mashal live a luxurious lifestyle.

They have been seen at its diplomatic club, photographed on private jets and travelled widely. The leadership would have been there for the 2022 soccer World Cup.

In contrast, most of the population of more than two million in the Gaza Strip, which Hamas has ruled since 2007, live in abject poverty.

I was surprised to learn that Qatar is a patron of the Hamas terrorists. Then I remembered their skulduggery around the Fifa World Cup. I have to withdraw my sympathy for them being blocked from having extra flights into Australia.

Perhaps Qatar airline should be refused entry into Australia altogether.

I agree, a good tactic wou;d be a worldwide ban on Qatar Airlines.
I am surprised that the three Hamas leaders have not alreadt been knocked off !

Ah.. so it's ok to discriminate against an airline, and punish our own citizens by denying them an opportunity for cheaper airfares
But you still want to pull this 'anti-semitic' / 'Jew hater' crap and imply criticising Israel is wrong, while defending the mass murder of women and kids.
- I'm just checking to make sure I have you three in the right context here.

Some here had previous opinions of Putin wanting him tried by the ICC for removing kids from a warzone.

I guess now it's my turn, right?
I support Australia backing an ICC investigations on Israel / Palestine.

You boys can go ahead and voice your opposition so we can all see where your at,
That is - tacit support for the continuation of mass murder of women and kids...
Or likely you'll pretend this comment isn't here and avoid the issue altogether,
- which will speak to the same support for the continuation of mass murder of women and kids.

Countries Should Back ICC Investigation on Israel-Palestine
http://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/25/countries-should-back-icc-investigation-israel-palestine
'Important Opportunity to Speak Up for Justice'

Australia Should Stop Blocking International Justice in Israel and Palestine
http://www.hrw.org/news/2021/02/12/australia-should-stop-blocking-international-justice-israel-and-palestine
'Rebuke of International Criminal Court Jurisdiction is Alarming'

Me personally, I'd probably advise choosing the 'ignore this comment' option.
I think you three might've just found yourselves in quicksand.
The more you try to struggle and get out, (if you try to argue the point) the deeper in you'll get yourselves.

[mumbles] '...supporters of mass murder of women and kids'
"Ahem" - oops, sorry, that comment above must've just accidentally slipped out.

Corruption, financial criminality, nepotism, cronyism etc are rife in the Middle East, no state there is exempt from these diabolical nasties. Alongside these evils exists masses of poverty stricken people. None of these evils can justify the genocide of thousands of innocents. Israel, claiming it is targeting Hamas, whist at the same time indiscriminately killing thousands of non combatant Palestinian men, women and children, is a war crime, and can not be balanced by the evils perpetrated against innocent Israelis Oct 7th.

They managed to dispose of Osama Bin Ladin. There is no reason why they couldn't do the same to the Hamas thugs.

Would you fly Qatar? Would you want a Muslim at the controls? Do you remember the Malaysia Airlines kamikaze pilot (Muslim) who killed a plane load of people, including Australians?

Islam is going to be a big problem AGAIN for the West - not just Israel. And the Australian political class doesn’t have what it takes to prosecute Jihadi Muslims preaching hate right here in Australia. The law is there, but they won't use it.

Brother Ismail preaching hate right here with a little boy running about while he is doing it.

Australia is no longer a rule of law country. Australia is rooted, and Albanese dances clumsily (as he does with everything) in Tuvulu, wearing an ugly shirt several sizes too big; as well as giving more of our money to the island crooks, and promising them visas, work and citizenship when they become 'climate refugees'.

Hamas received 44% of the vote at the last election - more votes than the Albanese government. In a recent poll, 57% of Gazans still had a positive view of Hamas.

There only reason anyone would pretend to feel sorry for these barbarians is Anti-Semitism.

ttbn,

With your undoubted dislike of Muslims generally, as you say you don't give a stuff about them, in the case of the Palestinians, what is your preferred number to be exterminated by the Israelis? 44% or 57%, hummmm! Maybe 2.5 million, a nice round figure, might be a satisfactory number in your book. Do you have a figure? I note a bit of a spray for those detested "island crooks" as well.

"For Hamas the business model is Gazans' misery."

I think you misunderstand things shadowminister.
The real truth is this:

"For Israel the business model is Palestinians misery."
If you disagree, then prove me wrong.

Holocaust survivor Gabor Maté.
If you won’t listen to him, you won’t listen to anyone.
http://twitter.com/bmay/status/1718265225504264670

'Israel Is 1000 Times WORSE Than Hamas'

AC

You have accused shadowminister of being wrong, then demanded that he prove you wrong. You need to go first, and prove shadowminister wrong - if you can actually prove or disprove what is an opinion.

Hi ttbn,

"You have accused shadowminister of being wrong, then demanded that he prove you wrong."

Well he is wrong, and you proved him wrong yourself in your own previous comment, did you not?

And I don't have to prove anything to anyone who uses the word 'Antisemitic'.
There's plenty of information sources out there including Jewish scholars and historians, if one actually wants to learn about this topic.
If one chooses to stick with their own hate-fuelled biases then nothing I say will convince them anyway.

Furthermore bleeding-hearted blinkers-on Israel apologists would turn a blind eye to anything bad Israel does anyway, or openly support it so why waste my time?
People who use the word 'anti-semitic' not only wish to stifle criticism of Israels actions, they give tacit support the mass murder of women and kids, and the subjugation and repression of 2.2 million people living in the world largest concentration camp, by a people who have enough past knowledge to know better.

I support the Jewish people who speak out against this and there are many of them.

At the end of the day, every woman and child Israel kills will just create more Hamas, so it's just killing for the sake of it.
There's every chance you may in fact only make the situation worse.
I support diplomacy, and working through problems with others non-violently, not war.

Israel should state it's borders now, once and for all, instead of this ambiguity while it slyly keeps taking land, which was all it was ever about, they're not fooling anyone.
Drive the existing Arab population out to create a Jewish state, and if they don't leave then kill them.
- That's what happened in 1948 and the same policy of death and destruction continues to this day.
You may support it, but I don't.

Israel should state it's borders, a 2 state solution should be enacted and UN peacekeepers should go in and provide border security.
- And people on both sides responsible for committing atrocities should face the ICC.

Oh and btw ttbn, that burger joint in Melbourne owned by a Palestinian that went up in flames.
Who are the extremists there, seems like those supporting team Israel.

And you whinge about people saying 'Gas the Jews'...
Well it's no problem for Zionists to say that others should be sent to the gas chambers.

https://twitter.com/CensoredMen/status/1720322637316902982
>>"Hitler made a big mistake, he should've put you all in the gas chambers, too bad."
- Says a Zionist to Pro-Palestinian Jews.<<

Whats worse, this is the same kind of attitude Jews have towards manipulating others nations democracies in their own interests.

The Squad Is Getting Primaried for Standing Against the War
http://theintercept.com/2023/11/03/deconstructed-israel-aipac-squad-primary/

Who do you think it was that first pushed all this woke crap?
Israel lobbyists at the ADL, opposing 'Hate speech'.
- And then we couldn't say shite when they wanted to import all the Muslims, who are now Australians.

Everything Israel complains that Palestinians have done to them.
- Was first done to the Palestinians by Jews.

Baldrick,

You seem to get a hard-on for all the tyrannical dictators Putin, Xi the Hamas murderers etc.

I think the ICC will be too busy processing the 1000s of war crimes committed by Russia in Ukraine. The kidnapping of Ukrainian children is only the first of many charges the tyrant Putin will face along with the targeting of civilian refugees hospitals etc, and the torture and murder of civilians in the lands it occupies.

As for war crimes, Hamas has a litany of war crimes from deliberately murdering children to hiding military arms and munitions under hospitals.

AC,

You don't have to prove anything to anyone using the word 'Antisemitic'. How about the correct term: anti-Semitic? Same there, is it? What is your problem with 'anti-Semitic'? Is it when it is used to describe you? Or is it just something you don't like?

"There's plenty of information" alright, most of it mere opinion; and you only chose the stuff that suits you. And, what about this "hate-filled" bias you are on about. How about your own hatred and bigotry? That's OK, I suppose.

"People who use the word 'anti-semitic' not only wish to stifle criticism of Israels actions…".

No. I use anti-Semitic to describe Jew-haters like you.

You support "Jewish people who speak out against this and there are many of them."

Well,of course. You support anyone who thinks the same way as you do. How many of them are there who don't mind their country being terrorised? Any actual figures amongst all your "plenty of information". It would be interesting to know how many lunatic Jews there are who like what's happening to other Jews - including the 1,400 slaughtered by your Hamas friends for no reason at all except anti-Semitism. You remember them, do you? The children and babies, raped, burnt alive, beheaded and brutalised before Israel fired a shot?

"Well it's no problem for Zionists to say that others should be sent to the gas chambers."

When did Jews say that? Oh, sorry: you don't have to prove anything. I forgot.

Israelis, who will continue doing what is necessary for their survival.

Paul

Ever thought of enrolling in a remedial reading course? I said I don't give a stuff about your "world refugees"; not Muslims "generally" or at all. Nor did I say anyone in Gaza should be exterminated. I point out that a majority of them support Hamas.

I'm more than happy for you to enthusiastically follow me and everything I say as you do; but you need to take in in what I actually write and absorb it, rather than jumping in with the pre-packaged bullsh-t from your little Green Book.

Well it looks like we have a winner here
Everyone give a big round of applause for our 'Clown of the Day'.
You've won this award a few times now haven't you?
- Keep up the good work and you might have a chance at 'Clown of the Year'

You're the first one to step into a pile of shite SM, nice work.
Should've known you couldn't help yourself to put your hand up.

"targeting of civilian refugees hospitals etc, and the torture and murder of civilians in the lands it occupies."

You are so dumb that you would say this above about Russia
- when you openly support Israel

You put your foot in your own mouth and your too dumb to even realise it.
Geez you are dumb..
It's like I announced to everyone there was a big turd on the ground and to not step in it;
and you immediately had to run over and roll in it.
Amazing... but believable from you. Lol

btw.. The first surrender of a pregnant Ukrainian soldier.
http://twitter.com/djuric_zlatko/status/1722930137635688509
They put a pregnant woman on the front line, and then her own people left her behind.
This should tell you how the state of things are for the Ukrainians.
Their military will probably collapse within a few months without further western funding.

Anyone here want to throw more money into a losing cause?
No, I didn't think so.

Also the IDF are taking some heavy losses, and the government is lying about it.
From what I see there's been a lot of mistruths since Oct 7 onwards.

America and it's allies couldn't even win in Vietnam or Korea
- Or even against goat herders in Afghanistan.

And you fools want to go Gung Ho into a war with Russia, China, Iran and maybe Nth Korea, all at once?
- Hard pass, good luck with that suicide mission
(everyone sent to fight is going to die)

Israeli Army Struggles To Advance | Shocking Losses
http://youtu.be/sdDy0MVZk9s

Hi AC,

How will Hamas rearm while Russia is fighting in Ukraine? Russia's main threats are meat waves, Lancets (China), glide bombs and artillery, but their eyes are getting taken out, which is why Ukraine was able to cross the Dnipro. Just lost a couple of patrol vessels carrying a btr and anti-aircraft missile system as well. At the rate Russia is burning through its arsenal there won't be much left over for the Jew haters.

Hi Fester,
I heard that Hamas has a 3mth supply of everything it needs stored in the tunnels to continue this conflict with Israel.
I'm not sure that Hamas even gets weapons directly from Russia.
Even if they wanted to (which I'm not sure they do) it would cause too big of a drama with Israel.
They probably get them mostly Arab weapon buyers and smugglers and maybe a little from Iran.

The Israelis want to rescue the hostages, it's a political issue, the family members are making a big fuss as one would expect, and Netanyahu has no choice but to try to bring them home.

But as I said in the beginning, I think the entire hostage taking was a ploy to get IDF to come in after them and fight them face to face.

I just heard earlier that a group of US Army Delta Force went down into the tunnels.
(I think there was talk of an operation in the tunnels on the news yesterday)

There was talk a week or so back that the plan was for Delta Force to go into the tunnels, rescue the hostages and then release nerve gas, but it's just a rumour.
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-exclusive-israel-will-flood-hamas-tunnels-nerve-gas-under-delta-force-supervision

Well apparently the whole entire group (not sure how many) of Delta Force soldiers that went in was wiped out, and the operation was terminated.

I can't find the video where it was discussed as yet though, so you'll have to settle for the Twitter thread on it where I got the info from.
http://twitter.com/onlydjole/status/1723095056574263670

Also I found the Hamas Charter earlier.
There's nothing in there about wanting to kill all the Jews, they aren't even against the Jews or their religion, they oppose the Zionists.

Read items 14 through 20, I might share some of this stuff later but I've made too many comments on this thread today.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/hamas-2017-document-of-general-principles-and-policies

SM is right about Hamas leaders and their children living it up while the regular Palestinian lives in poverty though, but that's no different to the West really.

Hi ttbn,

You don't have to prove anything to anyone using the word 'Antisemitic'. How about the correct term: anti-Semitic? Same there, is it? What is your problem with 'anti-Semitic'? Is it when it is used to describe you? Or is it just something you don't like?

Sorry about the spelling.
I just don't like it, and as an Aussie, I feel like I'm free to criticise pretty much anything, so when there's this idea that says 'You can't criticise this' and there's a basis of merit for criticising 'this', then I think the whole idea of it is stupid.
I criticise.

Like what other country has this? None.
Anti-Mexican, self-hating Mexican, the whole thing seems idiotic.

If Ugyhurs through rocks at Chinese we'd be like Yay!
If the people of Myanmar threw rocks at the military junta we'd be like Yay!
- And we'd be like that with just about any other downtrodden people.
But if the Palestinians do it - the exact same thing, then they are terrorists and Israel has free reign to just shoot them, and it has.

"No. I use anti-Semitic to describe Jew-haters like you."
Is killing thousands of kids at a rate higher than Hitler ever did not enough reason to be critical?
(And I'm in the majority on this)

"You support anyone who thinks the same way as you do. How many of them are there who don't mind their country being terrorised?"
- There's a few, mostly orthodox Jews who don't support Zionism, I saw a video of one Orthodox Jew protesting getting bashed by police a week or so back, and their were thousands of them protesting in NY a few days back, so certainly no all Jews agree the current situation.

I may be out of comments, if so I'll get back to this when I can.

Armchair critic,
Just out of interest, is there anything on what Hitler thought of the Palestinians ?

Indyvidual

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem at the time advised and helped Adolf Hitler with the Jewish 'problem'. Hitler didn't have much time for religion, but he said that he could work with Islam, and he did.

The National Socialists, the Marxist Socialists in their various forms now infesting the West, and the fundamentalist Muslims are at one when it comes to anti-Semitism.

Was Neville Chamberlain a Muslim? Was Franklin Roosevelt a Communist? The Palestine Regiment which fought on the Allies side during WWII consisted of both Arabs and Jews. Why does the Grand Boofhead of Australia hate Muslims, and other minorities so? But he loves Pauline Hanson, wants us all to vote for her, His kinda racists!

BTW, Hitler was a Christian! Both Protestant and Catholic churches supported Hitler.

Thanks again AC for once more providing thoughtful decent comment on the Forum.

Hi AC

"SM is right about Hamas leaders and their children living it up while the regular Palestinian lives in poverty though, but that's no different to the West really."

Quite different I would think. The fact that the head of Hamas lives elsewhere speaks volumes. Similarly, the Russian elite have substantial assets in western countries, and many have their children there as well. How many western elite have assets and kids in Brics nations? And one of my niece's sons attends school in Scotland with a Russian kid whose family emigrated to stop him becoming cannon fodder.

Hamas controls and exploits the lives of people in Gaza. They live in poverty for the same reason Russians live in poverty. It's not the same.

Hitler was not a Christian; he thought Christianity was a religion 'fit only for slaves'. His mother was a Catholic, but he followed his father, who thought all religion was a scam. He did refer to himself as a "German Christian", but that means as much as saying that Australia is a 'Christian country', when it is no such thing; it is a secular country. Calling oneself Christian to many people is just a way of saying that they are not one of the others.

The Christians should be proud of old Joe Stalin, now there was a dinky-di Christian. Joe went as far as studying at the Tbilisi Spiritual Seminary to become a priest, or what ever they call them in the Georgian branch of the Russian Orthodox Church, probably believed Christ was a communist. Now there's a mob with form, the Russian Orthodox Church supports Putin killing Ukrainians, provided they are members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and not members of the Russian branch. Christianity at work!

The hypocritical Greens, Arabs and assorted nut jobs are protesting and taking court action against what they call Australia's "secretive and unaccountable" export of weapons. Tossing themselves down in front of trucks headed for an Israeli ship; screeching and waving foreign flags: all the usual rubbish that has occurred since the terrorists they illegally support slaughtered 1,400 Israelis and started a war.

How rude of Australian authorities not to share 'secrets' with these lunatics! Lunatics who don't say boo about the support for their terrorist heroes coming from Iran and Qatar etc.

Leading wackjob, Green Senator Shoebridge complains that "the Australian government approves hundreds of military sales to Israel and we have no idea what the weapons are or how they are used. Even the US has more transparency on weapons sales than Australia. Time to tell the truth."

This bloke is the sort of grub helping to hollow out Australia from inside.

Antony Loewenstein, another one who used to pollute OLO, is also raving about the "damning evidence" of Australia selling weapons being "used in Gaza". Nothing about the weapons being used against Israel, FROM Gaza, courtesy of Iran and who knows what other Islamic states.

He blabs about "secrecy", ignoring the fact that the trade can hardly be secret if he knows all about it, as he claims to.

It was public knowledge in 2022 that Australia was 15th on the arms selling list.

What secrecy?

These galahs, like their counterparts in the UK, now want the courts to suspend arms sales to Israel, while it's OK for Arab terrorists to be supplied by Iran and other Islamist terror sponsors.

This is pure anti-Semitism, pro-terrorist, sheer madness, or the lot.

Hi ttbn

>>"Well it's no problem for Zionists to say that others should be sent to the gas chambers." When did Jews say that?<<

It was in the link, (I'll add it again below) but I forgot to take out the S when I added it previously

http://twitter.com/CensoredMen/status/1720322637316902982
>>"Hitler made a big mistake, he should've put you all in the gas chambers, too bad."
- Says a Zionist to Pro-Palestinian Jews.<<

- Just out of curiosity does clicking the above link take you to the video, or does one need to be logged into twitter first to view the content?

If it's ok to freely say that to other people (even their own), it erodes a little of the wrongfulness of when others say it to them.
(Not that it's something I'd say)

Hi Indyvidual,
I knew that Hilter did have some association with Palestine but I didn't know the details and looked up some things last night prior to ttbns comment.
What Hitler and the Grand Mufti Really Said
https://time.com/4084301/hitler-grand-mufi-1941/

Hi Paul,
"Thanks again AC for once more providing thoughtful decent comment on the Forum."

If 'bad things happen when good people do nothing'; and if saying nothing is the equivalent of giving my silent consent...
- Then all I've done is to voice an opinion and say this killing of non-combatants is excessive and wrong.
(This goes equally for both sides)

What sort of people blow up hospitals willy nilly like its ok?
- People that already think all the people using them are 'animals'
People who think it's ok to kill the women and kids because they will grow up to be Hamas anyway.

Hi Fester,
"Hamas controls and exploits the lives of people in Gaza. They live in poverty for the same reason Russians live in poverty. It's not the same."
I can maybe accept that your argument has some validity, though there is probably not a lot of opportunities as there could be while they're stateless and blockaded.
Interestingly, in Russia right now they have far more jobs than people to fill the positions.

AC

It's hard to believe that you base your opinions on those of some anonymous nutjob on Twitter. All you are doing is saying that you agree with an anonymous nutjob on Twitter.

Not everyone on social media, main stream media, Google etc, is a nutjob like that one, of course. But I have never seen the point of using 'references', when all you (or any other poster) using them are achieving is showing that someone agrees with you; which proves absolutely nothing. Opinions are good enough for me; interesting, and 99.9% unalterable.

Hi ttbn,
"It's hard to believe that you base your opinions on those of some anonymous nutjob on Twitter. All you are doing is saying that you agree with an anonymous nutjob on Twitter."

Twitter / X is just one of the sites I use to get info.
It's not so bad, I can tell you that every single day I see things on the TV news that I'd already seen on Twitter the day before...
So in many cases - I'm just getting my news a lot faster than others and can almost tell you what will be on the TV news tomorrow.

The world is pretty big on phone cameras and video footage these days.
It's a great way to share information quickly.

"But I have never seen the point of using 'references', when all you (or any other poster) using them are achieving is showing that someone agrees with you"
- I don't agree with anyone saying that other people should be put in gas chambers.

Lets say SM and others complain that Hamas is using people as human shields, it may have some merit but it's hard to argue that people living in their own homes are being used as human shields, when they're living in a place so densely populated.

Here's a short 18 second video of IDF using Palestinians as ACTUAL human shields.
http://twitter.com/jacksonhinklle/status/1723077443278258493
- It doesn't get much more clear cut than this.

Baldrick,

I see that you have made Moron of the day. You support the genocidal Russians and Hamas with the morals of sewer rats who deliberately kill, maim and torture civilians yet have the stupidity to hold Israel to a higher standard. Clearly, your parents were from the shallow end of the gene pool.

What's also clear is that you have no idea of what a war crime is.

Here is a clue for the stupid and racist:

Anywhere that the terrorists are is a legitimate target whether they are firing from these positions, hiding themselves or their supplies, etc. This applies whether this is a church school or hospital or whether there are civilians, women children etc.

What is a war crime is deliberately targeting women and children or using civilians as a human shield.

Israel has tried not to kill civilians whereas Hamas has cowardly deliberately targeted them and used them as human shields.

Israel is close to purging northern Gaza of Hamas and soon will move into Southern Gaza. It is methodically finding and destroying the tunnels and destroying them with Hamas inside them. Easily done by filling them with explosive gas and then detonating them.

If I were a Hamas leader anywhere in the world I would be putting my affairs in order.

Anywhere in the world.

Yes. The got Bin Laden. They can get the Hamas leaders no matter where they skulk. Drones these days are marvellous for picking off spot targets with little or no collateral damage, and no risk to the executioner at all.

From a letter I received from Jerusalem.
"Genocidal Hamas jihadists abducted more than 240 hostages.
Israeli soldiers have now found the remains of women and babies taken by Hamas and murdered in the most barbarically evil ways imaginable.
EVIL is the only way to describe it. Yet Hamas' barbarity is being celebrated across the globe. Congresswoman Tlaib has even joined Hamas in calling for Israel and the Jewish people to be wiped off the map "from the river to the sea."
As Israel fights militarily to defend its people, we are aggressively expanding our efforts to defend Israel – representing hostages' families and launching a multipronged initiative to help get these hostages home"

Shadow Minister,

This situation can't continue.

Both Israel and Palestine needs to find another way
to stop the violence. To ensure humanitarian access.
To return the hostages and to resume the negotiations
on a two state solution.

Netanyahu is a major barrier standing in the way of
Israel changing its policies towards the Palestinians.
Policies that brought everyone to this current disaster.

Was Netanyahu to leave that barrier would be removed.

While the removal of that barrier might not automatically
make life better for Israelis and Palestinians it
would certainly create conditions under which more positive
developments could become more likely - under a more
reasonable government. Especially with pressure from the
international community.

Hamas would need to halt their rocket attacks on Israel
and release the hostages immediately and unconditionally.

This is one glimmer of hope amid the nightmare in which the
two sides are currently trapped.

Netanyahu has to go.

Dear Foxy,

«Netanyahu has to go.»

Not to worry - he will.
He is now a certain goner,
even members of his own Likud party say so.

And while he is already in the shadows and no longer at the helm,
he will formally resign only the day after the war,
just because his resignation now would boost the enemy's morale.

Meanwhile, have you heard anything about our friend, David F.?
It is three weeks that he has not written in this forum,
he has never been away that long before.

SM: "It is methodically finding and destroying the tunnels and destroying them with Hamas inside them."

Josephus: "As Israel fights militarily to defend its people, we are aggressively expanding our efforts to defend Israel – representing hostages' families and launching a multipronged initiative to help get these hostages home"

Which is it exactly? - are they trying to rescue the hostages, or just blowing up the tunnels with everyone in them?

Netanyahu can go ahead and keep murdering innocent women, kids, elderly.
Israel has already done so much damage to it's reputation it will be a full generation before they get back to where they were.
They're only making things worse for themselves.
I'd be willing to bet that attacks on regular innocent Jewish people are greatly increased already.
Think about it, parents whose kids were killed, they will support Hamas more than ever now.
And just wait until the orphaned kids grow up, and they come looking for payback.
Israel can keep murdering the innocent, but it's their own who will pay a huge price for it, and when it all unravels I'll just think to myself that 'You were warned, and you brought this on themselves'.
Innocent Israelis will be looking over their shoulders everywhere they go, anticipating being attacked and even more Jews (not from Israel) will oppose its actions.

Israel can keep murdering them but mark my words, there will be a price to pay.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

I oppose the killing of innocents, it's wrong, but beyond that there's not much I can do is there?

Israel has well and truly made its bed, now it will have to lay in it.
Doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me, as long as we don't end up with Israel going for the Samson option and starting WWIII.

America keeps digging it's own hole deeper and that suits me fine.
They are treading water struggling to maintain the moral high ground.
Saw they had another ratings downgrade a few days back.

Credit agency Moody’s cuts outlook on US government to negative.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/10/moodys-us-government-credit-rating-negative

The American empire will continue to deteriorate, slowly at first, then quickly.

Ah yeah, it's starting to do the rounds now, what I stated a while back
That the number of civilian deaths are NOT overestimated by a 'lying and untrustworthy' Gazan health authority.

I even saw people discussing it on the TV yesterday.

That they are drastically underestimated.
I told you they were only counting the dead who were recovered.
There's probably just as many more rotting under the rubble.
The whole place must smell like death.

I saw footage of a dozen 14 story buildings leveled in 10 seconds by an equal number of missiles during the first few days.

After the first week or so Israel had reportedly dropped 6000+ bombs but there was under 5000 dead, it just didn't add up from the footage of the explosions I saw.

Oh looky here

Yellen Warns China To Obey As US Debt Auction GOES BAD
http://youtu.be/r5TDC9EOaoE

"Yellen met with China's He, telling him to obey US sanctions on Russia. However, at the same time, demand for US treasuries is starting to collapse with the 30-year auction ending in disaster. We are seeing the US tighten sanctions because excessive borrowing in the debt markets is starting to backfire big time."

Arrogance. US urges China to obey US' sanctions against Russia without having any jurisdiction.
http://youtu.be/wKknKrWXWe4

Oh and btw there are several nations who have already referred Israel for war crimes, keep killing the innocent Palestinian women and kids and more countries will follow.

What purpose does Hamas serve aside from subjugating Gazans, destroying Israel, and giving power and wealth to its leaders? Foxy calls for Israel to negotiate with Hamas, but that would imply that Israel is at fault. That is a bit like asking Norwegians to share the blame for being murdered by Breivik or the Muslims in Christchurch to share the blame for being murdered by Tarrant. Israel's crime in the eyes of Hamas is being a Jewish state. What is there exactly to negotiate?

Dear Critic,

«Which is it exactly? - are they trying to rescue the hostages, or just blowing up the tunnels with everyone in them?»

So you are trying to dig for Israel's top secrets... they are not going to tell you!
But Israel did hint that most hostages were taken to Southern Gaza.

«Netanyahu can go ahead and keep murdering innocent women, kids, elderly.»

Innocent people were killed in Gaza, but none of them was murdered - murder requires an intention.

Second, Netanyahu is no longer in charge.
It is now defence minister, Yoav Gallant and opposition leader Benny Gantz who are in charge. Netanyahu only remains as a figurehead until the day after the war when he will formally resign, when new elections will also take place.

Regardless of Netanyahu's former policies, the people of Israel, including even its Arab/Muslim citizens, are presently united about the necessity to eliminate Hamas, whatever the costs.

«Israel has already done so much damage to it's reputation it will be a full generation before they get back to where they were.
They're only making things worse for themselves.»

Nothing changed for Israel and nothing could go worse than how it is and how it always been. Whether others love it or hate it, Israel has to do whatever it is doing - Don't tell me that you loved Israel before and only changed your mind recently...

«I oppose the killing of innocents, it's wrong, but beyond that there's not much I can do is there?»

Indeed, there is nothing you can do, there is nothing I can do and there is nothing else Israel can do.

«as long as we don't end up with Israel going for the Samson option and starting WWIII.»

That is not up to Israel - it could happen, but that is up to Iran.

«That the number of civilian deaths are NOT overestimated by a 'lying and untrustworthy' Gazan health authority.»

Israel estimated a week ago that the number of Gazans killed is 20,000 - mostly Hamas fighters. Now a week later, that number must be even bigger.

Dear Critic,

A single Hamas commander held 1,000 "Palestinian" civilians hostage in a Gazan hospital. He must have stood there with a machine gun, shooting anyone who tried to escape. Then Israel killed him and the 1,000 finally escaped - but till then, how many of them had to unnecessarily die?

Israel just destroyed a Hamas base located in a civilian house.
Among the personal belongings of a dead Hamas fighter, that were found in a child's bedroom along with an explosives laboratory, was Hitler's book Mein Kampf, translated into Arabic, with some passages marked and underlines by its owner.

Israel has no choice but doing exactly what it does - or perish.

Hundreds of 1000s of Arabs have been killed by the Russians and Assad and it continues. Where are the demonstrations?

Yuyutsu,

I'm also concerned about David Fisher.
I hope that he's all right. His health
may be suffering a little from the hot weather
being experienced - particularly in Queensland
where David lives.

Anyway, if anything happened to David - surely someone
would at least let Graham Young know. And Graham, I trust,
would let us all know.

Also, I wonder how O Sung Wu - is doing?
He's another much-appreciated poster of this forum.

Yuyutsu,

I hope that the Israeli people will do the right thing
and have Netanyahu and his government replaced with a
more reasonable government. I hope you're right.

"What purpose does Hamas serve aside from subjugating Gazans"
- Resistance from occupation and land theft.

Are these Jews Anti-Semitic?
http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1723370338598195416
http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1723424691761656127
http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1723359553201324160
http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1723759712997449937
http://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1721592910884319732
http://twitter.com/kunalpanchal/status/1720747902308655340
http://twitter.com/WarraichBaker/status/1721046316921303146
http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1722284684699144232

There's plenty more where that came from...

Any Jewish people who oppose what Israel is doing right now are labelled Anti-Semitic, and I'm starting to think this whole 'Anti-Semitic' thing may as well have come from the Nazi's themselves.

Herman Goering: "All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."

"Yoav Gallant" - He seems no better than Netanyahu.

http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1722788578084708616

http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1723128891559030944
Millions of people are protesting what Israel is doing.
But Israel has to pay its protesters just to turn up.

http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1723787420758327404
IDF soldiers were wearing t-shirts of pregnant Palestinian women in crosshairs that said "one shot two kills"

http://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1722997027846365223
An Israeli high school teacher was assaulted and arrested by police for a Facebook post showing sympathy for Palestinian civilians killed in Gaza. He didn't even condemn Israel.
Nazi state.

http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1723268444236268025
Never have I seen racism like this. This is Zionism.

http://twitter.com/KeithWoodsYT/status/1723275000054972902
Paul Joseph Watson exposes the hypocrisy of Zionists like Bill Maher, who celebrate forced diversity in Western countries while giving absolute support to a Jewish ethnostate in the Middle East.

Israel will now be synonymous with genocide.
It has spent 75+ years making it's own bed, and can lay in it.
Reap what you sow.

I support diplomacy, negotiations and compromise over war, and I support the human rights of innocent non-combatants on both sides of this conflict to be safe from harm.
You can all take that any way you wish.

Hi Foxy,
Yes I think it's sad sometimes when people stop posting and may have passed away and nothing is heard again.

Do they not have family outside of OLO that could post something for them after they're gone?
- Maybe some don't.
Are they not able to leave some instructions and a message to be posted?
- Maybe many don't wish to.

I hope david f and O Sung Wu are safe and well.

shadowfiddler,

Where to start?

The Hamas leaders are in Qatar because the Israelis and Fatah often refuse them entry back into the Gaza strip.

The Israelis kept him out in 2006.

"During the simmering Fatah–Hamas conflict, on 14 December 2006, Haniyeh was denied entry to Gaza from Egypt at the Rafah Border Crossing. The border crossing was closed by order of Israeli Minister of Defence, Amir Peretz."

He tried again in 2016.

"On 13 October 2016, the Legal Committee of the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) endorsed a request for the return of Haniyeh's government to the Gaza Strip...Despite the PLC recommendation and Hamas' plea, both the consensus government and Fatah refused the request, citing in a press release its illegality and risk of further divisions between Hamas-controlled Gaza and the West Bank"

But despite that Israel went ahead and bombed his family home killing 17 members of his family on the 17th of October.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-strikes-gaza-home-of-hamas-political-leader-in-exile-killing-14/

The Hamas leadership are not worth 11 billion dollars between them at all so why claim it.

Overseas aid into Gaza is tightly controlled through NGO's and Australia's is no different.

You keep repeating the line that: 1,400 innocent civilians were killed.

It appears nearly half of those dead were serving IDF personnel so why do you persist with this? Were they any more or less innocent than Haniyeh's family members?

Hi Armchair Critic,

The words anti-Semite are often heard
Being uttered by those of limited words
The words are meant to be divisive and malicious
Coming from people both toxic and vicious

These people aim to cause great harm
Their words to us all should sound alarms
'Cause the real anti-Semites will be able to hide
Their hatreds will spread, divide us, and thrive

So let us be careful
Which words we all use
There's enough conflict already
Amongst Arabs and Jews.

All this calling of Israel to do this or that by anonymous tragics on the internet is pathetic. Nobody cares what they think. Netanyahu doesn't look to the internet for advice. Perhaps they could go to Israel and preach there, where the action is, and give the rest of us a break from their naive ramblings. No knowledge. No brains. No responsibility.

As for the faux concern about a couple of names on a screen not popping up when expected, how about 'dead'. One of them was/is 97 at last count, and the other was/is in his 80s. Spend some time with flesh and blood people you know. There are no friends and no real life on the internet. We are all just made up names.

Expressing hostile anger toward Israel is anti-Semitic, and chanting "from the river to the sea Palestine shall be free", is also Anti-Semitic as it means the eradication of Israel.

http://www.npr.org/2023/11/04/1210588361/israel-palestinian-workers-construction-economy
Nov 4, 2023 · In peacetime, more than 110,000 Palestinians held permits to work in Israel or Israeli settlements, according to Palestinian officials.

'For years, the Palestinian work permit program was seen as a way to improve relations between Israel and Palestinians in the occupied territories. Giving Palestinians steady jobs in Israel with reliable income could divert them from associating with radical militant organizations like Islamic Jihad and Hamas, supporters of the work programs said.'

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/17859/palestinians-work-israel

Josephus,

Anti Semitism is what some people do
If they dislike any Arab or Jew
Why do some people dislike those?
Because the people they dislike
Are far smarter than any they know.

Josephus,

Salam. Shalom!

Stoolfondler,

Since Hamas has had almost unfettered control of Gaza since about 2010 having effectively neutralized Fatah in Gaza, I find your claims to be complete bollocks. Living life in Luxury is far more attractive than the Hamas-created hell hole in Gaza.

The $11bn is the figure quoted as to the top Hamas leadership's ill-gotten wealth, if you have a different figure please tell me.

Foxy,

The future of Gazans will be far brighter once Hamas is eliminated.

Baldrick,

You have collected the greatest collection of Jew-hating fabricated lies in posts that I have ever seen. You are clearly a hater of Jews and the lowest scum bag I have seen on OLO, and you have strong competition.

Whenever you say "I heard" I know an outright lie is about to follow.

You are disgusting.

Stoolfondler,

Also, the number of Israelis killed that were linked to the military was closer to 25%. This did not include the senior citizens who received compulsory military training in their youth or the children, toddlers or babies directly targeted by the terrorists.

Probably 50% of Gazans killed were trained in terror as well.

Foxy believes Hamas is much smarter and should be allowed to rule. She can march with the chant against Israel because she believes in the cause.

Josephus,

I don't support extremists or fundamentalists of any
kind. And I hope that both Israelis and the Palestinians
will find a solution that they both can be satisfied
with in this conflict. I hope this happens very soon as
we are in the midst of a deep crisis - not only for Israel,
for Palestine, for the Middle East and the International
Community as a whole.

This situation can't continue. Both Israel and Palestine
needs to find another way. They need to stop the violence.
To ensure humanitarian access, and to release prisoners and
hostages. And resume their negotiations on a two state
solution.

Kindly stop stoking division on this forum. Think before
you post. And if you don't understand something - ask.
Instead of making false assumptions.

Shadowfiddler,

You wrote: "Since Hamas has had almost unfettered control of Gaza since about 2010 having effectively neutralized Fatah in Gaza, I find your claims to be complete bollocks."

They won the bloody election in 2006 you clown. Fatah would not relinquish power, Israel ratcheted up sanctions and the US suspended aid. Hamas proactively went after internal groups who were firing rockets at Israel and dramatically slowed rocket fire from Gaza. They did other things including being prepared to form a unity government with Fatah, but it all fell apart. Your revisionist predilections are well known on this forum. How about you ease up.

About 80% the victims identified by Haaretz were between the ages of 18 and 40. Israel considers males between the ages of 16 and 50 as legitimate targets.

About 50% of Gazans are under 18. By you idiotic calculation that would make every one else trained as a terrorist.

Hi shadowminister,

"Also, the number of Israelis killed that were linked to the military was closer to 25%. This did not include the senior citizens who received compulsory military training in their youth or the children, toddlers or babies directly targeted by the terrorists."

I'm not sure that's correct.

http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1722059911537033514
"Israel has finally released the names of the claimed 1400 killed on October 7th. The majority were active duty soldiers (highlighted in yellow)."

- Looks to be around 55%
And you and others can stop talking about beheaded babies as well, it's not true
- Just a lie so that people like you would have something to scream about and that others would not oppose what Israel did next.

You fools have been strung along with a false set of facts.
I told you all many times before, the truth takes time to come to light, and prior to this you're all fed a big serving of propaganda.

http://twitter.com/KeithWoodsYT/status/1722434819458548070
Dead Israelis broken down by age:
Baby (0 to 3yrs) - 1
Minors (3 to 17yrs) - 25
Adults (18+) - 1123

http://twitter.com/LivingDadJoke/status/1723357207792660670
A man tries to salvage water before it evaporates in the sun after his neighborhood’s water supplies were struck by an Israeli bomb.

Jews like to be smart and answer questions with more questions.
They will deprive the Palestinians of food and water, and bomb their remaining supplies, then when the die of thirst and starvation they will say it wasn't us that killed them.

Six hospitals hit within 24 hours, including 2 children's hospitals.
That is just sick.

THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT TAKING LAND.
http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1723474110888731055
Americans: “This is about Hamas”
Israelis: “This is a genocidal land grab”
- That's why they go in with bulldozers.

Hi Charter Boat

"You have collected the greatest collection of Jew-hating fabricated lies in posts that I have ever seen. You are clearly a hater of Jews and the lowest scum bag I have seen on OLO, and you have strong competition."

Have a cry ya girl, you obviously haven't looked very hard.
- I didn't 'collect it', I viewed it and shared it.
And what I shared is just the tip of the iceberg all with millions of views.
I've never personally insulted or disparaged any Jewish people in my life...
O hang on, comments to David Singer maybe, if that counts.

You support killing women and kids so I don't care what you think.
- I'm not sure you even rate as a human being if you think that's ok.

You know I could cop your bs in regards to Russia / Ukraine.
But on this topic, giving tacit support to murdering innocent women and kids so Israel can take more land, I think you've really sunk to a new low.

For being a big mouth supporter of killing women and kids I'll share the 2 top twitter accounts on this topic so everyone can view and share all the content.

For anyone who opposes killing women and kids, dig in!
- Plenty here for everyone, with thanks from shadowminister.
http://twitter.com/Partisangirl
http://twitter.com/DrLoupis

Stoolgobbler,

You moron, Fatah retained power in the west bank but had zero influence in Gaza. You are also lying in saying that Israel considers males between the ages of 16 and 50 as legitimate targets as many of these have been allowed to evacuate from North Gaza.

While most Israelis over 18 have military training, this does not make them active military targets, and certainly, the unarmed civilians were not. The number of active military personnel was closer to 25%.

Baldrick,

Just about everything you share is fabricated Jewish-hating filth. This makes you a filthy jew hater.

You lie about the Russian atrocities and celebrate the children they kill so you have the morals of a sewer rat.

Morning shadowminister,
You seem to be coming unhinged.
What are you spakking out about now?

That I shared a video of a bloke trying to collect spilled water?
Or a woman on an Israeli TV program arguing all the land is theirs?
Or the breakdown of the people in Israel who were killed and their ages?

What were my numbers above in total - 1149
Maybe it came from here:

Israel's Dead: The Names of Those Killed in Hamas Attacks, Massacres and the Israel-Hamas War
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-19/ty-article-magazine/israels-dead-the-names-of-those-killed-in-hamas-massacres-and-the-israel-hamas-war/0000018b-325c-d450-a3af-7b5cf0210000
'Approximately 1,200 Israelis, civilians and soldiers were killed in their homes, communities and in confronting Hamas terrorists. Here are the officially confirmed names of Israel's dead in the atrocities of October 7 and the subsequent Israel-Hamas war'

"This list of 1165 names will be continuously updated with names that have been cleared for publication. If you have any corrections or comments, please contact us at names@haaretz.co.il"

- Maybe 16 names were added to the list?

Look at the newest comment with 74 likes.

"Where are the babies? Were there any baby victims? I hope there weren't. Was the beheading stories mere hasbara? If there were baby victims will their names be released? If there were not will IDF spokesman tell the truth about it? Would the hate fury and feelings of revenge be tamped down if the story proved false? Are the journalists in Israel lazy? Censored? Afraid to reveal the truth? The beheaded baby story is still believed in Canada by the willfully ignorant. Please reveal the truth!"

- It's now over 5 weeks past the event.
If this actually happened wouldn't this info be released by now?

"Just about everything you share is fabricated Jewish-hating filth. This makes you a filthy jew hater."
- Just about everything you buy into is propaganda.

"You lie about the Russian atrocities and celebrate the children they kill so you have the morals of a sewer rat."
- You're the liar, show me where I've ever stated as such.
You can't because it doesn't exist.

Baldrick,

Are you also a holocaust denier? That would equal the horrific lies you are telling now.

We're told that a city-wide walk-out at 1.30pm on
November 23rd will take place in Melbourne when
students from a number of inner-city schools are
participating in a "Strike for Palestine."

The schools, according to The Age newspaper - are
Princes Hill, Fitzroy High, Brunswick Secondary, and
Thornbury High.

In my time, this would not have been allowed to happen
during a school day. But today it appears that students
do take action when they feel passionate about an issue -
for example - such as climate change.

I'm not sure what to think about all this. We are supposed
to encourage serious thought about issues in our children
I'm just not sure that in such a controversial political
issue - they should be allowed to take sides.
Wouldn't a class discussion or debate be more appropriate?

A protest could soon turn nasty - and what if anything
would the students learn for the protest? Discussion issues
in a classroom would be a better option. Although it would be
less exciting I guess.

Shadowfiddler,

You were implying Hamas was untoward in "effectively neutralized Fatah in Gaza". That was the electorate.

From the casualty list from the 2014 Gaza conflict. Note the difference from the UN HCR figures and those of the IDF. Males between 16-50 had to be confirmed as civilians to be counted as such.

UN HRC: 2,251 killed (65% civilians)

Israel MFA: 2,125 killed (36% civilians, 44% combatants, 20% uncategorized males aged 16–50)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War

And now you are directing your bile at Armchair Critic. He posted a list of casualties from an Israeli source and you are including it in your list of "fabricated Jewish-hating filth".

What little regard for anything which nudges at the reality you have built for yourself.

And look where the denigration and name calling has gotten you. You referred to me as anti-Semitic quite a while ago now and refused to retract it. I have been happily applying the blow torch to you ever since.

Thus it will ever be so. Enjoy, I am.

Too many think that war is like a football match between two teams playing by mutually agreed rules.

It is totally bizarre that, in time of war, Israel drops leaflets warning civilians to flee before it launches an attack; phones civilians directly to warn them to evacuate buildings before bombs are dropped. That wouldn't happen anywhere else.

Yeah I'm calling bs on it.
5 weeks is long enough for some kind of affirmation that this was real.
40 so called 'beheaded babies'
Every baby potentially has 4 grandparents.
That's 160 potential grandparents;
And not 1 grandparent has put up a social media post saying:

'In loving memory of my beautiful granddaughter, whom I loved more than life itself,
You never got to grow up and have the life you were meant to have and a family of your own.
A tragic loss, forever missed.'

- Not that I know of anyway.

I may be wrong, and I'll admit it if proven so.
But I think the story of 40 babies beheaded just has to be a lie.
It doesn't fit with the way the hostages say they were treated.
And the lack of evidence for it, is somewhat telling.

That said, I think there was 1 baby killed and it apparently was headless
- Douglas MacGregor spoke of it, but he also said that there was no way of telling how it happened.
It may have been from crossfire, sniper fire, tank round blast, apache gunship, who knows.
Apparently the IDF soldier who originally made the claims was a Palestinian hater.

Also, thanks for the kind words Steelie.

Hi Foxy,
>>We're told that a city-wide walk-out at 1.30pm on
November 23rd will take place in Melbourne when
students from a number of inner-city schools are
participating in a "Strike for Palestine."<<

Yes I disagree with this.
Kids should be at school learning.
They shouldn't get to decide that they wish to go protest instead;
And school principals should not be using their students for political purposes.
The answer's 'No'.
End of Story.

If they wish to go with their parents to a protest that's up to the parents
That said I'm not sure these types of protests between Pro-Israel and Pro-Palestinian is any place for young people to be.
Too much potential to be caught in a clash if someone throw a rock or a bottle or who knows what.
And definitely not kids younger than teenagers.
If they are 16 or 17 and seniors in high school, then maybe.
But still not a good place for young people to be on such a heated issue.

Israel doesn't have the right to wage war under international laws: UN
http://tinyurl.com/5xuuremh

Israel doesn't have the right to wage war under international laws, Ms Albanese says.

She says the right of self defence can be invoked when a state is threatened by another state, which Ms Albanese claims is not what happened during the October 7 terrorist attack by Hamas.

"It has been threatened by an armed group, qualify the way you want, but it is an armed group within the Occupied Territory,' she says, when asked what action Israel had the right to take.

"Israel cannot claim the right of self-defence against a threat that emanates from the territory it occupies."

Dear Critic,

«Israel doesn't have the right to wage war under international laws: UN»

Yet another reason to close down that useless and wasteful body.

When bullied and punched by an older kid in the schoolyard, I suppose you just sat down quietly until you could call a teacher, because that's what school-law said...

Anyway, Israel did not occupy the Gaza strip - no Israeli was there for the last decade. And anyway, if self-defence against a threat that emanates from the territory one occupies is illegal, then all police must be arrested, including in Australia.

Hi Yuyutsu,
I already stated a week or so back if you recall that I think everyone has an right to defend themselves, but that I didn't think some of the things I was seeing in Gaza equated to self-defence.

- I was just sharing the information by the UN rapporteur.

Baldrick,

Most of the pictures of rapes murders etc were posted by the Hamas murderers. The reason you can't find them is because either you are an idiot or you don't want to find them.

As for Israel's right to defend itself, this applies to external or internal terrorists. Stop quoting morons.

Stoollicker,

Thanks for showing that Israel does not automatically classify Males 16-50 as legitimate targets. The % of people linked to the military killed by Hamas was confirmed to be about 25% not the 50% quoted by apologists for Hamas such as yourself.

"Stop quoting morons."
- Oops, I may have accidentally just quoted another one.

Palestinians Sue Biden for Failing to Prevent Genocide in Gaza
http://theintercept.com/2023/11/13/gaza-lawsuit-biden-israel-genocide/
The federal lawsuit accuses President Joe Biden, Secretary of State Antony Blinken, and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin of complicity in genocide.

http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1724550662703444462
Whenever you see Israeli propaganda to pretending to be "kind", remember this.

http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1724457770060288417
A Palestinian man was tortured and kidnapped by Israeli terrorists while LIVE-STREAMING. Iyad Banat from the West Bank, was beaten in his house while his kids screamed. IDF terrorists responded by pointing their guns at the kids.

This is what you support SM
http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1724198111797711136
http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1723685901979816378

The whole world is watching you know.
The footage isn't going to go away, it's out there forever.
http://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1723281669195444293

Shadowfiddler,

Those in active duty at the time of the attacks would be 30% but the figure of those trained to kill Palestinians who were killed in the October 7th attack would well surpass 50% based off the age demographic. Once you have done your military training in Israel you can be called up at any time until the age of 40 and to bring your skills at conducting war to the conflict.

"All Israelis under the age of 40 who served in the IDF, unless otherwise exempt, are theoretically eligible for reserve duty. Women in non-combat positions are released from this obligation upon the birth of their first child." Wikipedia

"Israel has drafted a record 300,000 reservists in its response to a multi-front Hamas attack from Gaza and is "going on the offensive," the chief military spokesperson said on Monday." Reuters

I would regard them as non-combatants until they had been called up but if those who trained with Hamas are fair targets whether they are engaged in hostilities or not, then so must be these reservists.

Stoolstroker,

You are such a Hamas fanboy and jew hater that you lie to justify the atrocities by Hamas against women and children. You are talking sh1t just put a cork in it.

The war against Hamas is justified and needs to continue until Hamas is obliterated.

Gazan kids are taught from the age of 6 to hate Jews and to kill them, this then makes all kids above 6 legitimate targets according to your logic.

Shadow Minister,

Can you seriously justify the following:

http://thenationalnews.com/mena/palestine-israel/2023/11/13/al-shifa-hospital-gaza/

Foxy,

Can you seriously justify this:
http://www.axios.com/2023/11/14/us-intelligence-hamas-hospitals-military-israel-john-kirby

Israel has found deep under the hospital a Hamas command and control centre with tunnels, communications and weapons storage. This Hamas war crime makes the hospital not only a legitimate target but a prime target of the Israelis. This has been the case for every hospital and many schools etc.

While Israel is trying to minimize the civilian casualties, Hamas is doing everything to increase the civilian casualties to blame it all on Israel.

Yes, I am sure that the IDF will be inviting journalists for a tour of the terrorist base under a hospital. Maybe the ABC and Penny Wong might at least take a virtual tour?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/15/idf-entered-gaza-al-shifa-hospital-raid-targeted-operation-hamas

"The Israeli army said its troops had conducted a “precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a specified area”. Later on Wednesday, a senior Israeli military official said “weapons and other terror infrastructure” had been found during the operation “in one specific area”.

The official told reporters that four militants died in a clash outside, and that there was no fighting inside the hospital complex and no friction with medical staff or patients, who he said were in a different section of the site.

Late on Wednesday, the Israel Defense Forces released a video that it said showed some of the material recovered from an undisclosed building within the large hospital complex, including automatic weapons, grenades, ammunition and flak jackets.

Lt Col Jonathan Conricus, an Israeli military spokesperson, said in the video: “These weapons have absolutely no business being inside a hospital.”

Israel has been accused of fabricating evidence
as a means of trying to justify its destruction
of the health system in Gaza. We're told that the
video released - was part of the fabrication.

The military made no mention on Wednesday of finding
any tunnels or an advanced command centre in the
Al Shifa hospital. It had previously said that Hamas
had built a network of tunnels and a command centre
under the hospital. However, neither were found.

The hospital staff, journalists, health organizations,
and others have all denied this. And investigations
have disproved Israel's claims.

Health facilities are protected in war by international
law.

Dear Foxy,

Why on earth would Israel want to destroy the health system in Gaza?

Yuyutsu,

Israeli authorities have claimed that there are command
bunkers and tunnels running under Gaza hospitals as a
justification for their targeting health facilities
which are protected in war by international law.

Investigations have disproved Israel's claims.

This was a few hours ago from Reuters.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-raids-gazas-al-shifa-hospital-2023-11-15/

Maybe it was a dodgy fact check by Jew haters?

More clarification:

http://aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/10/what-winning-the-war-means-for-israelis

http://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-raids-gazas-al-shifa-hospital-2023-11-15/
The military simultaneously released a video it said showed some of the materials it recovered from an undisclosed building in the hospital compound, including automatic weapons, grenades, ammunition and flak jackets.

In one hospital department, "the soldiers located an operational command centre and technological assets belonging to Hamas, indicating that the terrorist organization uses the hospital for terrorist purposes," an Israeli military statement said.

Israel has been accused of fabrication.
Hospital staff have denied the video claims
strongly and the Israeli military made no
mention on Wednesday of finding any tunnels in
Al Shifa.

http://aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/10/what-winning-the-war-means-for-israelis

Dear Foxy,

With due respect, you have not answered my question.

Israel (America too) believes that there are major command/control/ammunition bunkers under the Shifa hospital.
Even suppose for a moment that they are mistaken, my question to you was:

"Why on earth would Israel want to destroy the health system in Gaza?"

Foxy believes Israel fabricates lies, and the Hamas health system tells the truth. She follows Hamas as the oppressed and the one suffering from Israel aggression. She follows the ABC, and its ilk.

Dear Josephus,

In order to fabricate lies, one needs to have a motive.

I am not interested at the moment in the question whether or not Israel fabricates lies, I only like to hear from Foxy as to what, in her own opinion, could possibly motivate Israel to do whatever it does.

I would appreciate your patience.

Yuyutsu,

The Israeli army says that these facilities are being
used for military purposes by Hamas

Josephus,

I am capable of speaking for myself.
And it is very intrusive for you to speak for me.
Intrusive and rude.

As I've told you multiple times - I do not support
terrorism in any form.

And as for the ABC? I follow many sources not just
our National Broadcaster.

It's an occupational habit.

Now go find someone else to annoy.

Dear Foxy,

«The Israeli army says that these facilities are being
used for military purposes by Hamas»

Yes, I knew about it for years, way before the present war.

Well, I do believe what they say and you seem not to, that's OK.

The question remains, why on earth would Israel want to destroy the health system in Gaza?

I believe that Israel DOES NOT want to destroy the health system in Gaza.
I believe that Israel prefers, to the extent they can help it, for the health system in Gaza to work well.
This is evidenced by Israel supplying the Shifa hospital with medicine, baby food and incubators¹.

But you may believe otherwise, therefore I asked for your reasons, if any.

---
¹ "We can confirm that incubators, baby food and medical supplies brought by IDF tanks from Israel have successfully reached the Shifa hospital. Our medical teams and Arabic speaking soldiers are on the ground to ensure that these supplies reach those in need," - Reuters, http://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-raids-gazas-al-shifa-hospital-2023-11-15/

Where's the "fact check"? Maybe they could use the same people who told us how long the Uluru statement was? There is ample evidence being accumulated by the IDF to show that Hamas terrorists (not militants) are using hospitals as protection for their Jew killer strongholds and arsenals.

https://aijac.org.au/fresh-air/fact-sheet-gazas-hospitals-and-ambulances-and-hamas-exploitation-of-them/

Yuyutsu,

According to CNN - premature babies at Gaza's
largest hospital are being wrapped in foil and
placed next to hot water in a desperate bid to keep them
alive in truly catastrophic conditions. The hospital
director has warned of the consequences as Israeli fire
power pounds away the surrounding streets and remaining
fuel reserves dry up leaving the facility unable to
function.

Staff at the Al Shifa hospital fight desperately to
keep newborns alive after oxygen supplies run out.

The situation is grim. And it does not look like it is
only going to get worse.

I meant to say that it looks like it's only going
to get worse.

Yuyutsu,

Israel may not want to destroy the Gaza Health system
but it's prepared to do so in order to win the war at
any cost. No matter how many die. Who are the abused
and who are the abusers in this case?

The strategy of Hamas terrorists was for other nations to engage in war with Israel when the IDF crossed into Gaza to dismantle the terrorist network. That has not happened and looks less likely to happen, and with the IDF gaining control of northern Gaza, it looks as if the terrorists will be trapped in their tunnels as Hitler was trapped in his bunker.

Poetic justice!

Yuyutsu, it is impossible to reason with one who believes that Israel lies, lies and the Hamas health system tell the truth. They have to convince the world they are oppressed and their lives threatened by Israel, as Hamas has them following the script.

It is "impossible to reason with one who believes that Israel lies ....", says Josephus; but he still continues to argue with people who are never going to change their opinions any more than he is going to change his.

Arguing is a waste of time, on Israel or any other subject. Have your say, then give it a rest. We all have our opinions, but we are not going to make a jot of difference. Only a few people influence what happens in this sorry world, and we are not among those people.

My last word on Israel is that they should stop operating by Hamas rules, and blow the crap out of them. Raze Gaza, and to hell with the rest of a world that has never had to suffer like Israel has.

So, what's currently missing?

Israel raids Al Shifa,
No command centre, no tunnels, no armory, no hostages...

They don't have a lot of credibility, lying about 40 beheaded babies.
I'm not saying there's nothing there just yet,
- But it's time to show the proof to justify their hospital attacks.

I want to see conclusive proof.
Take a video walking through the front door of the hospital and walk me down into the tunnels.
A couple of guns, magazines and a few grenades could've come from militants seeking treatment who subsequently died.

Contrary to your belief AC, the IDF did find a tunnel.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-tunnel-found-gazas-al-shifa-hospital-says-israel-un-aid-halted-2023-11-16/

Human Rights Watch, United Nations, World Health
Organization all tell us the same things:

That Israel's repeated attacks on medical facilities
in Gaza should be investigated as war crimes.

We're told that Israel military's "apparently
unlawful attacks" are further destroying Gaza's
healthcare system at a time when medics have
unprecedented numbers of severely injured patients
and hospitals have run out of medicine and basic
equipment.

We're also told that despite the Israeli military's
claim on November 5th 2023, of Hamas's use of
hospitals no evidence put forward would justify
depriving hospitals and ambulances of their
protected status under international humanitarian
law.

The statistics are dreadful. We're told that - as of
November 10th - two thirds of primary health-care
facilities and half of all hospitals in Gaza are not
functioning according to the United Nations.

And as of November 12th at least 521 people, including
16 medical workers have been killed in 137 attacks
on health care in Gaza.

There's more data available on the web. However, it is
too distressing to read.

This situation needs to be addressed

Hi Fester,
- Well of course they would say that.
This is from the same people who said there were 40 beheaded babies and a whole lot of rapes, none of which I've yet seen any evidence for.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/16/idf-says-hamas-hiding-evidence-of-use-of-shifa-hospital-as-command-centre

>>It made videos and photographs of the tunnel shaft and weapons public, but no independent verification was possible.<<
- I'm yet to see this footage.

>>The IDF said that 'after searching some of the hospital complex buildings', troops had found weapons as well as 'intelligence materials, military technologies and equipment, command and control centres, and communications equipment, all belonging to Hamas.<<
- They should show us these 'command and control centres'
And there should be UN staff on hand to verify the findings, not propaganda videos.

>>John Kirby, the White House national security spokesperson, was questioned by reporters on Thursday about the evidence Israel had so far produced to back its claims.

“We have our own intelligence that convinces us that Hamas was using al-Shifa as a command and control node and most likely as well as a storage facility,” Kirby said.

“They were sheltering themselves in the hospital, using the hospital as a shield against military action, placing the patients and medical staff at greater risk. We are still convinced of the soundness of that intelligence.”<<

'convinced'
The fact that he's using that word 'convinced' and IDF are in the hospital
- is not AT ALL 'convincing'.

Show the evidence.
Show me the footage.
Walk through the front door of the hospital and take me on a video tour down into the tunnels.
Show us all this 'command and control centre'

Hi AC,

As extremists, I think that the hierarchy of Hamas didn't envisage the IDF getting as far as they did. No war being declared on Israel by her neighbours, so the IDF can continue with their destruction of Hamas's Jew killing infrastructure, as they have every right to do.

The following information was found on the web:

We're told that -
The Israeli army released a video which it claimed
showed a tunnel entrance in an outdoor area
of the Al Shifa hospital. The video which Reuters
could not verify showed a deep hole in the ground
littered with and surrounded by concrete and wood
rubble and sand.

We're further told that:

It appeared the area had been excavated. A bulldozer
appeared in the background.

An observation was made that:

Much of the media coverage tends to repeat
Israel's claims that Hamas is committed to destroying
Israel and that Hamas was hiding under the
Al-Shifa hospital.

We're told that:

This kind of reporting contributes greatly to the public
not only accepting the still unfounded claim but also
siding with Israel as it continues to kill tens of
thousands of Palestinians which Israel argues is
the cost of dealing with the situation.

It's pointed out that:

Any credible media outlet should at the very least
question and scrutinize the narrative.

And finally:

Now, more than a month since Israel initiated its
horrific campaign against Palestinians in Gaza -
there's no solid proof that Israel's actions in Gaza
extend beyond devastating a defenceless population.

We might well ask where will all this end?

Will there really be any winners?

Foxy,

Hamas has continually used schools hospitals etc for their military purposes. This has been confirmed frequently. This has been well documented.

If you are trying to discredit this to push your pro-Hamas agenda you have picked the wrong area to whinge about.

Shadow Minister,

I am not pushing any agenda.

I am merely quoting what Human Rights Watch, the United
Nations, World Health Organization, The Israel Times,
Haraatz, Reuters, CNN, and others have stated.

I am not a pundit and regarding this conflict - I have
been pushing for balance and restraint, and praying for it
to end soon because the situation is catastrophic.

I want there to be peace in the Middle East without
the devastation of any defenseless population - Israeli
or Palestinian - on the Holy Land. It should be able to
be shared by both - living side by side peacefully.

shadowfiddler,

you claim: "Hamas has continually used schools hospitals etc for their military purposes. This has been confirmed frequently. This has been well documented."

No it hasn't so why claim it.

Josephus tried it on earlier with his "tunnels beneath the hospital" video. Yet the entrance proved to be 200 mts away.

This video from the BBC verify also casts doubts on the Hospital weaponry stashes which seem to grow through the day.

http://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/comments/17x2m4m/a_bbc_verify_segment_on_the_evidence_at_the/

"It should be able to
be shared by both - living side by side peacefully."

Yes, and that is why Israel is justified in taking action to destroy a terrorist organisation dedicated to Israel's destruction. I'm sure that Hamas was trying to start a holy war against Israel, but I suspect that Israel's Arab neighbours quietly believe that peaceful Israel brings stability to the Middle East and are secretly pleased to see the destruction of Hamas. Meanwhile I wish the IDF success and safety in showing the world how Hamas has been using human shields and hospitals to protect their Jew murdering terrorist organisation.

"This video from the BBC verify also casts doubts on the Hospital weaponry stashes which seem to grow through the day."

My goodness. The illustrious BBC. Reuters published a story about the IDF sending teams of medics with Arabic interpreters. The BBC reported the story as the IDF targeting medical teams and Arabic interpreters. Must have been the work of one of their Jew hating reporters.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/bbc-apologizes-after-false-claim-idf-targeting-medical-staff-arabic-speakers-in-gaza/

Dear Fester,

«I wish the IDF success and safety in showing the world how Hamas has been using human shields and hospitals to protect their Jew murdering terrorist organisation.»

I also wish the IDF success and safety.

However, Hamas is not specifically a "Jew murdering terrorist organisation": they murder anyone they can when it suits their desires, including their own, not just Jews. They just murdered non-Jewish Israelis and foreign Asian workers without even asking about their religion or ethnicity, that includes Muslim-Arab-Israelis, who perhaps could recite the Quran better than themselves.

From the very start of this Middle-Eastern conflict, Arabs did not turn against the Zionists who settled the land because they were Jewish - they turned against them because they brought with them social progress, which threatened their medieval conservative patriarchal customs and could loosen their grip on their women and give them equal status as the men. These same Arabs had no issue with the old-style Jews that lived in Jerusalem, Safed and Tiberias, because these were no less conservative than themselves.

Dear Fester,

Bloody hell mate, you really are sticking to the script aren't you.

As has been pointed out the two blue stripes on the Israeli flag signify from the river to the sea.

Israel is a self avowed Jewish state.

Israel has systematically sealed 2 million Palestinians into a small section of land in the country's SW. It is in the process of incrementally doing the same to the 3 million Palestinians living in the West Bank, pushing them into smaller and smaller enclaves. It is doing this through terror, subjugation, land theft, settler violence and strict controls.

It is a state built on terrorism, existing via deploying terror, and will continue to do so while supported by sycophants like yourself.

Give yourself a big pat on the back.

Hi Yuyutsu,

Good points. It is nice to see someone without a "them and us" perspective. The only thing I think wrong with Israel is the inequality created with special recognition for Jewish citizens. The irony is that some of the people here who would share that criticism were also supporters of the Voice.

I think it a very mixed up world.

Stoollicker,

You are starting to sound like a flat earther by simply denying the facts you don't like. Even the UN admits that Hamas uses schools and hospitals as cover. It has been an open secret for years.

That the pile of weapons is growing as Israelis search the premises is no surprise, nor that tunnels have more than one entrance.

The high number of civilian casualties is because Hamas uses civilians as human shields.

"U.S. National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said Tuesday during a press briefing that the White House sees plenty of open-source reporting about Hamas' use of hospitals and other civilian infrastructure to store weapons and house fighters, adding he was "not in a position to speak specifically to a report about a specific hospital or bunker."

White House spokesman John Kirby was more adamant about U.S. intelligence, however.

"We have information that confirms that Hamas is using that particular hospital for a command and control node" and probably to store weapons, Kirby said on Tuesday. "That is a war crime."

Hi Steele,

I believe in democracy. My understanding is that it means that we are all equal, can believe whatever we choose without fear of persecution, and that whatever one believes does not necessarily make him good or bad.

I hope that the hostages are safe and will be released soon. I don't think that a society raising kids with the ambition of killing their neighbours has a future.

For all the people who use the words 'Anti-Semite' and 'Jew hater'.
I wish it would be their friends, families, parents, children being bombed.
Then their would be a cost to their tacit support of what we see happening.
Scream Jew hater all you want when it's your own kids getting their arms blown off.
http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1725566532221063284

Israel claims a 'right' to do this?
This is self-defense?

Israel is an apartheid child murdering terrorist state.
And you lot supporting it are no better than if you were doing it yourselves.

AC

Your comment: “For all the people who use the words 'Anti-Semite' and 'Jew hater'.
I wish it would be their friends, families, parents, children being bombed”, is the most outrageous post ever to get past the moderator.

Someone calls you or anyone else an anti-Semite or a Jew-hater, and you want their friends, parents and children bombed.

Just because you get called a couple of names.

You have certainly disqualified yourself as a rational human being.

You are sick.

Hi AC,

With Russia's invasion of Ukraine/murder of its civilian population, the justification was Putin's claim that Ukraine had become infested with armed extremists hellbent on killing Russians, so Russia was thus justified in demilitarising and de-Nazifying Ukraine. You were believing and accepting of this justification.

Now what is different about Israel trying to remove Hamas from the Gaza strip, other than the justification being factual?

Carnegie Middle-East scholars tell us:

We need to take a step back and have
a look at the root cause of the terrible events
that are happening.

They say that the world
might have been surprised at the size of the Hamas
attack, but that it should not have been surprised
that it took place.

They say - the international community bears
part of the responsibility for letting the conflict
simmer and for accepting the longest occupation in
modern history.

We're told that the time has now come when the world
can no longer ignore the fact that as long as the
Israeli occupation continues, more blood will be
unnecessarily spilled by both sides.

They say that Palestinians in Gaza have been locked in
a prison for nearly 20 years under siege by Israel
without any political lifeline.

The explosion of such a horrific nature was the direct
result of a lack of any political horizon.

Those who felt that peace was possible in the region
without coming to terms with the Palestinian
occupation have now had that false impression shattered.

The international community is now faced with a
radical Israeli government that is not interested in
any compromise, and an ineffective Palestinian leadership
that has now been further weakened by current events
and a US administration that is pre-occupied with
presidential elections next year.

The conditions don't appear favourable for a political
initiative which would require a willingness of both
parties to seriously engage, as well as the US
administration - that has so far been disinterested.

The facts summed up by these Middle-East scholars
are not pleasant. They tell us that - the longer the
world continues to focus only on the here and now, the
more it will have to deal with casualties on both sides.

We're told that - there is no military solution
to this conflict. That while everyone understands this
basic fact, the insistence to keep ignoring the root
of the problem - the occupation - can only keep
spelling disaster.

Israel is in proximity to nations with 600 million Arabic inhabitants. None of them are helping Gaza against Israel as other nations have helped Ukrainians against Russia. Why is that? As for apartheid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35eEljsSQfc

Fester,

The following link explains:

http://latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-11-03/arab-countries-unwilling-accept-palestinian-refugees-gaza

The fear by Arab nations appears to be that Israel wants
to force a permanent expulsion of Palestinians into their
countries and nullify Palestinian statehood.

There's more explanations on the web - where the Arab
perspective is fully explained.

"The fear by Arab nations appears to be that Israel wants
to force a permanent expulsion of Palestinians into their
countries and nullify Palestinian statehood."

Arabic nations might say that Foxy, but none of them want an influx of Hamas terrorists. That is the real reason the borders stay shut. If they were concerned about ethnic cleansing the borders would be open and the aid would be flowing in, as is the case with Ukraine. I think that Israel's neighbours will be very grateful if Israel does the hard work of eradicating Hamas. Hopefully they will free the hostages as well.

This is an example of what happens when a small group sets themselves aside from the main group.
When a small group persists in being different and aloof over a long period of time, they create a gap which can lead to friction.
In this case it has.
All those involved need to step back, and cease living in a fantasy world.
They need, instead, to embrace sound principles, and learn to live in peace.
This will involve compromise.
Can they do that?

We have a similar situation here in Australia.
People descended from a group which lived here long ago persistently remain separate, and create major difference.
Eventually it could lead to more friction than it already has.
However, I think a majority here are too wise to let that happen.
So all should be well for us.

Fester,

Arab Middle East scholars have made it clear, as
have the leaders of Jordan and Egypt, that they
already have large Palestinian populations and
their main concern is that Israel's military campaign
is not just about fighting Hamas but it's an
attempt to push the civilian inhabitants out.

They say that Israel's aim all along has been the
expulsion of Palestinians into the surrounding
regions and nullifying Palestinian statehood.

We're told that the radical Israeli government
is not interested in any
compromise. Recent efforts in the region have focused
on the false impression that peace is possible in the
region without coming to terms with the Palestinians
under occupation. That myth has now been shattered.

Israel does not want Gaza; the only reason Israel wants change is that the Gazarians want Israel and continue to bomb civilian centers. Therefore, they must act to take control of the area. Israel employs over 100,000 Palestinians and gives them a better life than the Hamas Government.

"They say that Israel's aim all along has been the
expulsion of Palestinians into the surrounding
regions and nullifying Palestinian statehood."

Really? In 1948 there were about 150,000 Arabs in Israel. Today that figure is over 2.1 million. Comparatively, there has been a greater than 99% reduction in the Jewish population in many surrounding Islamic countries. For example, Egypt's Jewish population declined from about 75,000 in 1948 to fewer than 10 in 2020: Almost a 99.9% reduction, just like Listerine Foxy.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-of-egypt

To me Foxy, that suggests that the residents of these countries aren't great believers in multiculturalism, and they certainly don't want Palestinians who bring up their kids to be Hamas terrorists.

I hope that the IDF can rescue the hostages soon. It is a horrible ordeal for them and their families.

Fester,

It always helps to get the full context and history in which
things happen.

The following link is from the well known Israeli
historian - Professor Ilan Pappe - currently teaching in
the UK.

http://aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/5/why-israel-wants-to-erase-context-and-history-on-the-war-on-gaze

Once again a typo.

Here's the link again Fester:

http://aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/5/why-israel-wants-to-erase-context-and-history-on-the-war-in-gaza

last attempt:

http://aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/5/why-israel-wants-to-erase-context-and-history-in-the-war-on-gaza

Foxy,

The prison in Gaza was built by Hamas. Surrounding Gaza is internationally recognised Israel into which Hamas continually sends people to kill Jews. To protect its people, Israel builds protections to keep out the Hamas killers. When this fails, Israel has to use force to eliminate Hamas to stop the killing.

Hamas is a murderous death cult similar to Isis that has killed more of its supposed citizens than Israel. The sooner they are wiped out the better.

Foxy,

Aljazeera is set up in Qatar the state that houses and protects the Hamas leadership. Your bias is approaching holocaust denier levels.

Hi Foxy,

Ilan Pappe has opinions that are much contested, and has been accused of fabrication to support his view point. I prefer listening to locals over expats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTwQh72XUZo

And by his own admission Foxy, Pappe considers facts as subservient to the ideology being pushed, much as your cult leader believes.

"Pappé bases his accusations against Israel not on substantiated facts, but on Palestinian narrative. He freely distorts the truth to conform with his ideology."

https://www.camera.org/article/backgrounder-on-professor-ilan-pappe-when-ideology-trumps-scholarship/

Some good news from Gaza....

The 'brave freedom fighter' who killed a defenceless young women in Israel on 7/10 and proudly paraded her naked body through Gaza to the cheers of the baying crowd while defiling that body, has been killed by the IDF. May he rot in hell.

Some bad news from Gaza...

One of the hostages, Noa Marciano, was found dead near the Shifa Hospital in Gaza.

"Palestinian Sources are stating that she was actually Killed by several Strikes to the Head by her Hamas Captors."

The IDF have also found the body of Yehudt Weiss, a 64yr old breast cancer sufferer, who was taken hostage on 7/10 after her husband was shot in front of her.

At this point, its probably reasonable to assume most of the hostages are dead.

Hi Fester,

Ilan Pappe is an Israeli scholar, one of the most
prominent living in exile having moved from the
University of Haifa to the University of Exeter in
the UK. He's one of the few Israeli academics who
writes of the conflict with real knowledge and
empathy.

He advocates a peaceful, humanist alternative to
the Zionist idea in the form of a binational state
with equal rights for all its citizens.

Pape has published a large number of books on the
history of the Arab-Israeli conflict of which the
most widely read and most controversial is -
"The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine."

History is usually written by the victors and the
Middle East is no exception.

Pappe is a leading member of revisionist Israeli
historians who emerged in the late 1980s. They
challenge the dominant narrative. The narrative
of the victors - using recently released documents
and debunking many of the myths that had come to
surround the birth of the State of Israel and the
1948 war.

Intentionally or otherwise their work has lent
credibility to the Palestinian narrative about the
war for Palestine.

Of course, I can fully understand that placing
Zionism under an uncompromising lens - many
people would object and find it confronting.

Shadow Minister,

This from the Human Rights Watch:

http://hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15

Shadow Minister,

Here is another link on Gaza. This information was published
by PBS News, CNN, AP, The Australian and many other sources:

http://straitstimes.com/world/middle-east/bombarded-twice-in-gaza-4-year-old-ahmed-loses-parents-than-legs-0

Shadow Minister,

Apologies for the typo. Here is the link again:

http://straitstimes.com/world/middle-east/bombarded-twice-in-gaza-4-year-old-ahmed-loses-parents-then-legs-0

Ah, it's post-truth mhaze sowing the usual seeds of half-truths and lies.

How was this quote about the IDF soldier who was taken prisoner by Hamas.

"Palestinian Sources are stating that she was actually Killed by several Strikes to the Head by her Hamas Captors."

Given he hasn't posted a link it is likely information he scraped from some dubious gutter source.

It is like his earlier claims of "Those beheaded babies" or "decapitating babies".

Also it now turns out that many of those bodies which were supposedly 'set alight' according to you and others, were actually Hamas militants who had been killed by Israeli Hellfire Missiles which consumed both Israeli and Palestinian alike.
http://youtu.be/r2Kn-r0UsSE?si=0RmN3BzNFtxt7BDr&t=397

Anyway welcome news with Spain’s Prime Minister, Pedro Sánchez, announcing his government’s decision to recognize the State of Palestine.

I already posted links in previous threads to the evidence for the people burned alive, particularly the evidence for a mother/child bound together then burned to the point where forensic scientists didn't initially realise they were looking at two bodies.

Same set of links showed evidence for decapitated babies.

I guess you missed those links. Good idea. Mustn't see anything that disturbs the narrative.

In the same vein, people who've seen the raw footage of the Hamas attack talk of an Israeli victim being decapitated with a shovel and the glee shown by the Hamas animals as they celebrate their killings. One such example is an invader using a victim's phone to ring his parents to boast of his killing prowess and the shouts of joy from those parents.

But the Gazans are all innocents, dontchya know.

"Send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."
( former Israeli Deputy PM).

"Beat them up so it hurts so badly, until
it's unbearable."
(Benjamin Netanyahu).

Post-truth mhaze,

You claim,

"I already posted links in previous threads to the evidence for the people burned alive, particularly the evidence for a mother/child bound together then burned to the point where forensic scientists didn't initially realise they were looking at two bodies.

Same set of links showed evidence for decapitated babies."

Firstly there is strong evidence even from IDF officials that the incineration of bodies was caused by IDF responses rather than Hamas deliberately setting bodies alight.

Secondly there has been a single report of a baby being killed during the October 7th attacks. Her name was Mila Cohen and she was 10 month old and her death is recorded here:

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-19/ty-article-magazine/israels-dead-the-names-of-those-killed-in-hamas-massacres-and-the-israel-hamas-war/0000018b-325c-d450-a3af-7b5cf0210000

She was killed at when her mother was shot while holding her.

Do you have a different list of those killed which shows numerous babies having been slaughtered as you have asserted? Or is this just more post-truth mhaze?

"More than 1.6 million people have been displaced in Gaza, and health officials there say the death toll has surpassed 12,000. Israel estimates 1,200 people were killed in the Hamas terrorist attack Oct. 7, with 239 people still held hostage in Gaza."

There are reports that Zionist death squads are capturing and summarily executing Palestinian prisoners. More than 100 Palestinian women and children are also being killedf daily by the IDF. Israel is now extending its deadly rampage to include Palestinians in the West Bank.

"(Israeli) airstrikes on crowded UN shelters in north Gaza’s Jabalia refugee camp killed more than 80 people on Saturday."

This war has to stop, with an immediate cease fire enacted. A peaceful settlement has to be found, the killings like those above can't continue.

"the incineration of bodies was caused by IDF responses rather than Hamas deliberately setting bodies alight."

Yes sure. Believe whatever helps you excuse the slaughter.

I linked this ages ago.... http://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-769339

"Perhaps the most disturbing image in the slideshow was a completely charred mass of flesh, which at first glance could not be seen as ever having belonged to a human. It was only after a CT scan was done that experts could see the inhumanity of the image.

Two spinal cords—one belonging to an adult, one to someone young—a parent and child bound together by metal wires in a final embrace before being set alight."

Beaded babies also mentioned.

SR, you could follow the links within the article to see other things you'll convince yourself aren't true. But its easier to just not read the truth and pretend you're informed.

I get that in your desperation to blame the victims you'll fall for anything (how many people died in the hospital carpark? or have you already forgotten how you fell for that?).

"We are witnessing a Holocaust denial-like phenomenon unfolding in real time."

http://nypost.com/2023/10/23/media/fox-news-war-reporter-limits-grisly-details-of-hamas-terrorists-confession-about-israel-massacre/

And finally....the most consequential link I've come across in this entire sorry jew-hating saga.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMZxXKNr268&t=1s

(if its too long just go to 16:30)

Dear Foxy,

«"Send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."
(former Israeli Deputy PM).»

Wow, I didn't know he was that generous and intent on improving their conditions that much!

The person who said these words was Ely Yishai, of the Shas political party that represents orthodox Sepharadi voters, that is Jews who came to Israel from Arab countries, in his family's particular case from Tunisia due the persecution of Jews and pogroms in that country. That explains his extreme hatred of anything Arab.

Yishai became the head of Shas in 1999, following the criminal conviction of his predecessor, but soon after in 2000 he led his party to leave Israel's coalition-government due to its participation in the Camp-David peace talks. He joined Netanyahu's government again in 2009 and as part of the coalition bargain became his deputy-PM. Soon after in 2010 he was found responsible for the negligence and failure in preparing the fire-fighting service for the horrific fires in northern Israel which cost that many lives. He was also kicked out at that time from his party's leadership by his party's chief Rabbi who had absolute authority, so he left in shame and created a new political party along members of Israel's present Nazi party. Fortunately his new party failed the 2014 elections.

«"Beat them up so it hurts so badly, until
it's unbearable."
(Benjamin Netanyahu).»

Netanyahu said it indeed, he has a big mouth and barks really loud, but Hamas actually did what he only said!

For many in Israel, life is indeed becoming unbearable.
Many now have to rely on psychiatric drugs to survive.
I have a friend there with nightmares, seriously believing that Israel is about to be destroyed and though born in Israel, that his family will be forced to return to Poland, where many of his relatives were killed in the holocaust.

Many innocent Australian Jews now also live in fear and try to hide by staying home and avoiding routine activities. At some point, their lives will also become unbearable.

When choosing your sources of information, Foxy, please pay attention to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUPS83P0S88

Hi Yuyutsu,

I thought you were a person who believed in the human rights of the individual, was I wrong about you? You very much are justifying the murder of innocent men, women and children, why is that?

"where many of his relatives were killed in the holocaust" that was indeed a crime against humanity, lets not condone another such crime in Gaza today.

Yuyutsu, there are many haters on both sides of the barbed wire, Zionists and Hamas who hate each other, let not yourself be put in that category.

Post-truth mhaze,

You are at it again.

You claimed the article described a mother and child bound together and burnt alive.

It didn't.

It said: “ one belonging to an adult, one to someone young”. You embellished it and it seems much of the early reporting was embellished. Which is a pity because the events were horrific enough without needing to do this.

The Israeli spokesperson in the video was quite explicit saying:

"Originally we said of the atrocious
Hamas attack on our people on October
7th we had the number at 1,400
casualties, and now we've revised that
down to 1,200 because we understood that
we had overestimated we we made a
mistake there were actually bodies that
were so badly burnt we thought they were
ours in the end apparently they were
Hamas terrorists."

That is over 200 Hamas bodies that were so badly burnt they couldn't be distinguished from Israeli victims.

Were the Hamas fighters setting themselves alight? Of course not. It is highly likely that IDF Hellfire missiles incinerated both Hamas and Israelis and that the charred bodies from your linked article were the result of those attacks. They were possibly hostages being taken back to Gaza but their incineration looks to have been a result of the IDF response.

As to a Piers Morgan interview with Douglas Murray of the Spectator given me a break. You called me out for linking to an Al Jazera article, this is far worse. It is commentary, not even a news story.

Try to do better.

Oh dear Steele. Your commentary reminds me of the spoof BBC journo sympathising with a Hamas terrorist for the sleep deprivation a baby Jewish hostage is causing him.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-773279

Dear Paul,

«I thought you were a person who believed in the human rights of the individual»

That must have been a misunderstanding: "rights", by definition, are bestowed by some greater powers (such as states) - yet we are inherently greater than anything that can possibly be bestowed on us from outside, so great that throwing that pittance of "rights" at us can only count as an insult.

«You very much are justifying the murder of innocent men, women and children, why is that?»

I do not justify anyone's murder. I condemn it.

Murder requires an intent to kill, excluding in self-defence.
Hamas' actions on October 7th were obviously murderous and I believe Israel to now be acting in self-defence, so that cannot recur.
Should there be any exceptions, any bad apples who deliberately kill innocent people, then they ought to be shot as well.

At present, necessity due to the nature of the battlefield sometimes forces Israel to kill Gazans, of which some are innocent and others not.
Israel tries to save them to the extent reasonably possible, but it is not always possible, due to the nature of war with both planned and unplanned ambiguity.

To give an example of ambiguity, a couple of days ago, while clearing a building in Gaza, an Israeli soldier encountered a bed that was covered in a strange way. The residents were not supposed to be there as they were prewarned, so the soldier did not suspect anything, he carefully removed the sheet and saw there a Gazan man who suddenly woke up and shouted in fear. The soldier also was startled and screamed, but he recovered from the shock first and shot the man at close range. There was no time to find whether or not he was armed. It turned out that the man was an unarmed Hamas spy who gathered information about the soldier's unit in order to ambush them the following night, it could have turned out otherwise, it could have been an innocent civilian, but who could take that risk?

[continued...]

[...continued]

«Yuyutsu, there are many haters on both sides of the barbed wire, Zionists and Hamas who hate each other, let not yourself be put in that category.»

You seem to misread the map:

The barbed wire is between moderates and extremists.
Netanyahu's Jewish-extremist government and Hamas Islamic-extremists are on the one same side, they do outwardly fight and kill each other, they do put on a show of hating each other but they don't really hate each other, they need each other to stay in power. I wouldn't even give these Jewish extermists the pleasure of being called "Zionists" because they are destroying everything which Zionism ever built.

Israelis and Gazans are on the same other side of the barbed wire. They have nothing against each other, they are both the victims of the extremists.

The majority of Gazans are hostages of Hamas and similar terror groups, and Israel is now freeing them from their cruel captors who also use them as human shields. It is so unfortunate that some of them have to be killed before the others can see the light.

I do wish that some power could similarly help freeing Israel from its own extremists, but I look around and can't see who can.

Hi Yuyutsu,

In response;

When I refer to rights, I'm referring to the inalienable rights of man, rights that are somewhat abstract, freedom, liberty, happiness, peace, contentment, rights that cannot be taken away or imposed. Rights that preexist from birth, that every human being on the planet has, separate from any rights that might be bestowed by others (government for example) eg the right to an universal education, the right to universal heath care, etc. I believe in those rights as being highly desirable as well, but they are not inalienable rights as such.

"I (Yuyutsu) believe Israel to now be acting in self-defence" I don't agree, Israel has the overwhelming fire power and is now using that power to extract collective punishment on the Palestinian people. The rest is simply anecdotal justification. The means justifies the ends, and sh!t happens scenario, is not justification for killing innocent women and children.

SR,

That's it? I said it was a mother/child and it could have been a father/child. Oh well, that makes it all good.

I pointed out the forensic scientists talked of beheaded babies. Why am I not surprised you decided to ignore that?

As to the Douglas Murray clip, it wasn't just a Piers Morgan interview. But that part was the most consequential. Murray had seen the raw footage of the massacre and was talking about that information and in particular how joyful the Hamas barbarians were at murdering and raping the young girls. Murray isn't the only journalist who got access to that footage. If you cared to look (well not you but someone interested in the truth) you'd find other correspondents making similar, but less articulate, observations.

Hamas needs to be eradicated once and for all, not just for the good of Israelis but also for the good of those living in Gaza

Yuyutsu,

There is no military solution to this conflict. While
everyone understands this basic fact, the insistence
to keep ignoring the root of the problem - the
occupation - can only keep spelling disaster.

I see Foxy believe in the eradication of Israel and its members dispersed as the answer. That is Hamas agenda. "The root of the problem - the occupation - can only keep spelling disaster". She does not understand the Islamic mind over land for Allah. They want to dominate the World, which is their religious charter.

" It would be my greatest sadness to see Zionists
do to Palestinian Arabs much of what Nazis did to
Jews." (Albert Einstein).

"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only
friend in the Middle East - I can't help but think
that before Israel we had no enemies in the Middle
East." (John Sheehan. S.J. - Jesuit Priest)."

" I am Muslim
ISIS kills me in Syria and Iraq
Jews kill me in Palestine
Hindus kill me in Kashmir
Buddhists kill me in Burma
Christians kill me in Afghan and Africa
And still I am the "terrorist."

" One Holocaust
Does not deserve another." ( Miriam Margolyes.)

Josephus,

Your opinion is not my reality.

"Row, row, row your boat
Gently off a cliff."

Hmmm

Palestinians are a stateless people.
While western countries are becoming peopleless states.
(Unless 'global citizen' is a national identity and multiculturalism is a culture)

SR wrote:"The Israeli spokesperson in the video was quite explicit saying"

Which video?

Speaking of links.... http://www.foxnews.com/world/israel-police-say-extreme-sexual-violence-rape-by-hamas-terrorists-was-systematic

In the past we had people reaching for the fainting couch when Trump talked (just talked) about grabbing women by the pussy. These same folk now avert their eyes, ears and heart at the massive sexual violence that occurred on 7/10. It seems raping Israeli girls is not really a crime as far as these people are concerned.

""I understood they were raping her," S said. "They were passing her from one person to the next. She was alive and standing on her feet. She was bleeding from her back."

S then described how one of the terrorists sliced off the woman’s breast and began playing around with it. Another, the witness said, shot the woman in the head while he was still penetrating her.

"He did not even lift up his pants and shot her in the head," S said, adding that she spied another terrorist haul a naked, dead woman over his shoulder and walk off with her. Another, she said, cut off someone’s head and was walking around with it like a trophy. "

The clip also describes children bound together and burned alive.

Still, people like Foxy have picked a side and the horrors no longer register or matter to them. Nor do the facts. They call it an occupation so as to justify their hatred of the Jews but fail to realise that they are just regurgitating radical Islam's propaganda.

Dear Paul,

It could have been nice, but in reality and in nature there is no such thing as inalienable rights of man.

Think of it: if such rights existed then man would be immortal, not only man but every animal too - why the distinction. Then women would not have pains during birth, etc. Another interesting implication of such rights would be the freedom to hurt others with impunity - inalienable means inalienable!

This mistaken concept, I believe, was born of the confusion between ourselves and people (or humans). In our Absolute true nature we do indeed enjoy eternal freedom, liberty, happiness, peace and contentment, but the humans we mistakenly think ourselves as do not enjoy any of these, nor does any other piece of matter or organism.

«Israel has the overwhelming fire power»

Fire is only one aspect of power.
It is not sufficient for survival, more is required.
Israelis genuinely feel under existential threat, that their survival is at stake, and that includes Israelis of all political persuasions, including socialists, Green and Arabs/Muslims.
Living in constant fear of similar attacks to October 7th would not be possible or sustainable. All Israelis that lived up to 7km from the Gaza strip as well as from Israel's northern border with Lebanon, we are talking a 6-digit number of them, had to flee their homes, some only with the cloths they were wearing at the time, and have no idea when they will be able to return. Their businesses have been destroyed too, but they know they cannot return so long as Hamas exists that close by. They now expect to be internally displaced for at least a year.
Even the others cannot lead normal lives due to the rockets from Gaza, Lebanon and Yemen, due to the men being called to the army as reservists and due to the fighter jet plains constantly flying above, all night, which does not allow them to sleep.
Israel's economy too is expected to collapse should the situation continue indefinitely.
No democratic state can survive like that.

[continued...]

[...continued]

«and is now using that power to extract collective punishment on the Palestinian people.»

I admit that there are some sick people in Israel who want that.
Nevertheless, this is not Israel's general policy.
Israel has a wall-to-wall consensus in agreement that Hamas need to be annihilated and the hostages returned, that Israelis would not be able to live otherwise, That's all that is being agreed, nothing else.

«sh!t happens scenario, is not justification for killing innocent women and children.»

What to do - it does happen, even here in Australia...

Women and children indeed die - but not in such numbers as stated in Arab propaganda. Also "children" include anyone under 18, which includes many Hamas teen-aged fighters, of which Israel has already killed 30,000+ even while they do not report that.

---

Dear Foxy,

I agree that there is no military solution to this conflict.

But first thing first. The immediate crisis needs to be handled right now, then in the day after, the sky is the limit!

Yuyutsu,

Netanyahu is a major barrier standing in the way of
Israel changing its policy towards the Palestinians.
A policy that brought everyone to this current
disaster. Were he to leave that barrier would be
removed.

While it might not automatically make life better for
Israelis and Palestinians - it would certainly create
conditions under which more positive developments
become more likely.

It is one scant ray of hope amid the nightmare in
which the two sides are currently trapped.

"War is hell but it really isn't hard to know which side to support - and it's not the one that bakes a baby alive in an oven, gang rapes women, and hacks an injured man's head off with a shovel". (Miranda Devine).

A couple of posters here, along with the truly appalling Foreign Minister, do not agree.

Dear Foxy,

A survey from 3 days ago shows that if elections were held today in Israel,
Netanyahu's Likud party would drop from 32 to 17 seats (of 120).

Of his coalition partners, the Ultra-Orthodox parties will drop from 18 to 17 seats, and the Nazi party will split and in total drop from 14 to 11 seats.

A new center-left coalition is clearly expected to take over, headed by Benny Gantz of the centrist "National Unity" party.

58% of responders wanted a new election to occur straight after the war.

Regarding what to do with Gaza after the war:
32% said that Israel should stay and settle there permanently.
30% said that Gaza should be placed under an international trust.
14% said that Israel should retain military control, but not interfere in civil affairs.
10% said that Gaza should be placed under the West-Bank's Palestinian Authority.
14% had no opinion.

With quotes like this" Every time anyone says that Israel is our only
friend in the Middle East - I can't help but think
that before Israel we had no enemies in the Middle
East." (John Sheehan. S.J. - Jesuit Priest)."

She is unaware of Iran, Afghanistan whom she thinks are our friends. God help us from this ignorance.

Yuyutsu,

Thank you for the information.
I appreciate your being constructive
in your commentary.

Post-truth mhaze,

Which video? The one I already gave to you.

"Also it now turns out that many of those bodies which were supposedly 'set alight' according to you and others, were actually Hamas militants who had been killed by Israeli Hellfire Missiles which consumed both Israeli and Palestinian alike.
http://youtu.be/r2Kn-r0UsSE?si=0RmN3BzNFtxt7BDr&t=397"

And please don't keep repeating links to accounts which have been confirmed to have been exaggerated.

The Israeli 'first responder' who keeps popping up on Fox News feeds has been changing his story repeatedly. Mainstream media have been backing down from earlier claims over the period as well.

"CNN anchor Sara Sidner apologized on X for repeating the claim after hearing it from Israeli officials who then retracted the story of the beheadings. She wrote: "Yesterday the Israeli Prime Minister's office said that it had confirmed Hamas beheaded babies & children while we were live on the air. The Israeli government now says today it CANNOT confirm babies were beheaded. I needed to be more careful with my words and I am sorry.""
http://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/12/40-israeli-babies-beheaded-by-hamas/

While I have no doubt the number may climb there has only been a single infant whose name has been released among the 1077 identified.

This is hardly 40 babies in a single Kibbutz.

I know they no longer matter to you but facts do matter for the rest of us. Do try and stick to them.

Arab forces were not protested against ISIS.

http://www.instagram.com/reel/Czoq57eoiSv/?fbclid=IwAR3aK7TVPhQVcRVSN9BO_zOYsav97M2-OBMqeD_6f7JGAyD0xEe-1HiWD-k

There is so much drivel coming from the extreme Left posters, and plenty of pointless argument from the non-Left, that I've stopped reading most of the rubbish, and might have missed this bit of information if it has appeared before. But, it seems that Article 19 of the Geneva Convention explicitly states that hospitals lose their protection if they are used for military purposes - as Hamas is doing.

SR,

Unlike you, I've been extremely careful about the numbers I've used.(How many people died in the hospital carpark?) This comes from a long experience of understanding the fog of war. I've never used the 1400 figure for deaths in the initial massacre. There was never any way to know the exact numbers and its always been clear that there was some resistance to the massacre and therefore some deaths among the Gazan barbarians. I've never said there were 40 beheaded babies. I have said there were beheaded babies, and that was based on clear and unequivocal evidence from the forensic scientists I've mentioned before.

But this is so typical of SR's moronic methods. If someone says 40 beheaded babies, SR pretends the entire incident didn't happen if only a lesser number is proven. I wonder how many beheaded babies SR needs to have proven to him before he shows some compassion to the victims?

"And please don't keep repeating links to accounts which have been confirmed to have been exaggerated."

I repeated the link because you'd ignored it initially and asked for it again. Dill!

"....but facts do matter for the rest of us. "

I look forward to seeing evidence of that.

I know most of the pro-Hamas brigade here aren't interested in contrary information and most likely won't read and/or understand this article, but I feel the need to post it anyway....

http://whiterosemagazine.com/jihadi-journalism/

The second half of the article should be required reading for those who fell hook line and sinker for the lies perpetrated by Hamas about the al-Ahli hospital and then dutifully promulgated by the anti-Israel media beloved of those of a certain leaning - yes I'm looking at you Foxy, SR and AC.

Required reading. But, I'll wager, left unread.

The first half of the article provides a history of the way the media accepts and regurgitates Hamas' talking-points. I would behove those mentioned above to acquaint themselves with the famous Muhammad al Durah incident to understand how all this works and how they are repeatedly lied to..... http://vimeo.com/67060204

It is referred to as Pallywood for a reason. Hint: filming the Israeli 'murder' of a child while calling for take-two, is probably a give-away.

But I know how this works. Those who fell for the hospital story have already long since forgotten it and memory-holed the entire incident. They've probably already convinced themselves they were on the right side of the story. What didn't happen was treating it as a learning experience. Falling for one lie should lead to scepticism over the next story. But for many, they just double-down on their pro-Hamas convictions.

Post-truth mhaze,

More of the same.

You earlier claimed: "Palestinian Sources are stating that she was actually Killed by several Strikes to the Head by her Hamas Captors."

You still refuse to provide a link to a reputable news source verifying this?

You accuse Hamas of beheading babies but as yet there is no firm evidence of them doing so. The only baby so far listed among the dead of Oct 7th was shot while in her mother's arms.

Even the emotional claims from the link you posted were also qualified: “Asked if they were decapitated, Kugel answered yes. Although he admits that, given the circumstances, it’s difficult to ascertain whether they were decapitated before or after death, as well as how they were beheaded, “whether cut off by knife or blown off by RPG,” he explained.”

You yourself have blatantly engaged in Chinese whispers with “a mother and child bound together and burnt alive”.

And it appears Fox News is the only organisation reporting from a police briefing about witness S who apparently said “They were passing her from one person to the next. She was alive and standing on her feet. She was bleeding from her back."

Rather than you over-hyping the already deeply tragic, perhaps it is best to restrain yourself until the proper investigations are carried out.

Lying SR,

"On Thursday, explicit images of bloodied and burned babies and children’s rooms covered in blood and gunpowder were posted on the official accounts of the State of Israel and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on X, formerly Twitter.

“Those who deny these events are supporting the barbaric animals who are responsible for them."

http://efe.com/en/latest-news/2023-10-13/israel-releases-photos-of-babies-killed-by-hamas/

"The unauthorised protesters who marched through Sydney spewing anti-Semitic bile and screaming “Gas the Jews” are a sign of what can happen when people make everything about race.

After being poisoned for decades with hatred against “the Jews who stole their land”, it’s hardly surprising Palestinians (and their supporters here) don’t want peaceful co-existence with the people of Israel. Instead, they want to wipe Israel off the map and drive the Jewish people into the sea, quite literally.

This is even though Israel is the only functioning democracy in the Middle East, a country with a free press, an independent judiciary, rights for women and LGB citizens, free elections that often change the government and a parliament where every minority is represented.

In truth, they’re the victims of Hamas itself, a terrorist regime that perpetuates and exploits their poverty to maintain the rage against Israel that fuels the atrocities we’ve just seen and the rapturous response to them (even here) from people fed a diet of race hate."

Hey mhaze,
"Still, people like Foxy have picked a side and the horrors no longer register or matter to them. Nor do the facts. They call it an occupation so as to justify their hatred of the Jews but fail to realise that they are just regurgitating radical Islam's propaganda."

More UN nations (including the UN itself) consider it an occupation as would I.
Mhaze, the horrors Israel are inflicting on the people of Gaza don't matter to you, so either take the blinkers off or STFU.

You don't like what happened to Hamas hostages, (well nor do I)
But maybe you should ask yourself why Hamas took them.

Because Israel has over 5000 hostages held without charge and tortured in Israeli prisons, and Hamas wanted to use these people to get it's own people back. Some women are raped whilst being filmed to turn them into informants, (As they may be shamed and even killed by Hamas or their own families if the footage was shared) just as young kids who throw rocks at tanks get their arms broken, and are not set in place properly so they can't throw rocks again.

So when people say 'unprovoked' then they are just talking bs, and you're no different, trying to polish the crimes on one side and ignore those of the other.

One side is the cause of conflict.
The other side is the reaction to it.

How many people do you have living in your own rape dungeon?
(you seem to be giving your own support to that kind of thing)

Oh and btw, was this 'witness' the same one as whom claimed 40 beheaded babies?

Israel is a terrorist nation.
They would murder hundreds of people just to 'claim' they killed 1 Hamas, (and you would support it) and of course no-one can prove it, because the evidence is under 14 stories worth of rubble.

You support the killing of kids, while crying about others who have been harmed.
- And that makes you about as fake as McDonalds cheese.

Dear Critic,

So long as you speak of just "One side [is the cause of conflict]" and "The other side [is the reaction to it]", so long as you fail to recognise that there are MANY dimensions to this story, nothing can change.

Some of the women murdered on October 7th in the Kibbutzim near Gaza were peace activists - one was a leader in Betselem, who was fighting against settler atrocities in the West Bank!

Some Nazis in Israel's government are pretending to cry over it, but in fact rejoice over their deaths.

No matter, History will consign Israel to it's rightful place along with the US.
It's unfortunate that the Gazans had to be the catalyst.

SR,

"You still refuse to provide a link to a reputable news source verifying this?"

I don't refuse to I just chose not to since you haven't the slightest interest in discerning the facts and only trying to discredit any information that doesn't suit your prejudices. For what its worth, here's where I got the quote. I'll leave you to explain why it doesn't suit your prejudices. BTW there are several other sources, including the IDF (there's an open invitation for you to tell us why the IDF always lies) who say that the girl was executed.

http://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1724183249767854524

".... yet there is no firm evidence of them doing so."

So you're going to pretend that the forensic evidence doesn't exist. Pretty standard there from SR.

"the emotional claims from the link you posted were also qualified"

You might note (well not you but someone interested in the truth)...you might note that I've never said the barbarians cut off the heads of the babies, only that they were beheaded. Further evidence needs to be forthcoming to decide that definiteively.

"... “a mother and child bound together and burnt alive”."

Yes it could have been a father/child, uncle/child, elder brother/child etc. Somehow SR thinks that changes the narrative. The thing he'll ignore is that we don't know exactly because the bodies were burned beyond recognition. But anything to muddy the water, eh SR?

" perhaps it is best to restrain yourself until the proper investigations are carried out."

This is hilarious and so very SR. After I've spent who knows how many posts trying to get him and AC to recognise the fog of war and the futility of being definitive about much of what is happening, he, having finally (....finally) learned the lesson, admonishes me to recognise the fog of war.

This (THIS...) from the bozo who fell for the story of 500-700 people killed in the hospital by those dastardly Joos.

You can't make this up.

AC,

"...so either take the blinkers off or STFU."

AC, in his continued efforts to stop me pointing out what a fool he's been making of himself, wants me to stop pointing out what a fool he's been making of himself. Go figure.

"the horrors Israel are inflicting on the people of Gaza don't matter to you,"

Oh contraire. Which is why I'd prefer that Hamas stop hiding behind the women and children. But this is war and Hamas must be eliminated. They are prepared to take as many of their fellow countrymen with them as they can in the hope it'll save their miserable skins, and that is unfortunately and horrific. But for the good of Israelis and Gazans and indeed the whole planet, the foul contagion of Hamas must be removed.

Continuing his slide into deep do-do, AC asks "How many people do you have living in your own rape dungeon?" The man, as he realises just what a fool he'd made of himself, is becoming increasingly deranged, and not a little creepy.

shadowfiddler,

That report was put out less than a week after the attack. Much of the assertions have either not been verified or ruled out completely.

mhaze talks about: "Those who fell for the hospital story have already long since forgotten it and memory-holed the entire incident."

No we haven't and we adjusted our commentary as more facts became evident. That is not happening among you lot of RWNJs.

You continue to talk about beheaded babies without evidence and continue to claim people were set alight by Hamas.

As to the number of burnt bodies the Israeli newspaper is reporting "According to a police source, an investigation into the incident also revealed that an IDF combat helicopter that arrived at the scene from the Ramat David base fired at the terrorists and apparently also hit some of the revelers who were there."

http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000

The number of vehicles attacked by Apache helicopters firing Hellfire missiles was extensive. The pilots really had no way of knowing which contained only Hamas operatives.

The investigation is ongoing.

Post-truth mhaze,

I asked you to "provide a link to a reputable news source verifying this".

You have given us an anonymous Twitter post which doesn't say the IDF claimed it at all but rather references some shadowy "Palestinian sources".

Is this really where you are at now? Is this what qualifies as a "reputable news source" to you?

You really have lost all perspective haven't you.

Try and do better.

Stoolgobbler,

You have been lying through your teeth. You claimed that only one baby was killed, yet there is photographic proof of more.

You claimed that the hospital was not being used by terrorists and there is photographic evidence of weapon stashes and tunnels under the hospital and terrorists killed in the hospital with this being confirmed by CNN.

As Hamas murdered everyone they came across, the Israeli victims burnt by the hellfire missiles were most likely dead before the missiles were fired.

You and many of your LWNJ's are disgusting apologists for Hamas murderers.

SR
I asked you to "provide a link to a reputable news source verifying this".

Oh, you mean like those reputable news source that told you 500 people died at the hospital? Dill. Standard SR here. Demand that sources he'll accept prove the case. Except that all the sources he relies on wouldn't touch this because it doesn't suit the narrative. And from that he concludes the story is false. Dill.

"which doesn't say the IDF claimed it at all but rather references some shadowy "Palestinian sources"."

I never said the IDF claimed she was killed by blows to the head. Illiterate as well as innumerate. I provided a quote that summarised the position as to what Palestinian sources had said. I also said that the IDF was saying she was executed by Hamas. Two separate stories with the same effective conclusion. do try to keep up.

"Try and do better."

When I fall H,L and S for a story like the hospital massacre, then I'll agree I need to do better. In the meantime, I'll continue to try to educate you and your creepy sidekick

Speaking of reputable news sources....

http://babylonbee.com/news/palestinian-authority-warns-that-gaza-hospitals-are-running-dangerously-low-on-ammunition

Dear SteeleRedux,

«The number of vehicles attacked by Apache helicopters firing Hellfire missiles was extensive. The pilots really had no way of knowing which contained only Hamas operatives.»

I checked the Haaretz article you provided.
It spoke of ONE Apache helicopter, which shot towards the terrorists and LIKELY also hit SOME of the revellers who were there.

Though the article shows a picture of destroyed reveller cars, it does not mention either cars or hellfire missiles.

No No Yuyutsu,

The article tells SR what he wants to hear....therefore its a reputable source. At least in the world of SR.

Why all this flippant conversation from those who should know better. Thousands of innocent people on both sides have died in yet another useless bloody war. We don't know the truth as to how many are dead, but one dead, is one too many. The truth is between Hamas and the Zionists they have killed thousands.

Dear Paul,

This conflict as we've seen has certainly stirred
up people's emotions not only with inflammatory
remarks on the forum but protests and vigils
across the country.

Division is happening all around us. And it doesn't
matter whether you're a Jewish person or an
Islamic person you should feel safe in this country.

We don't need to add fuel to the already hot flames
with our comments.

I hope that this will come to an end - sooner rather
than later.

I've stopped watching the news.

It's too depressing

I have a number of relatives living in Israel, and two in the Military. So, I am concerned for their safety. They chose Israel for its freedoms and Values.

Dear Paul,

Here's the story behind a staged coexistence picture:

http://timesofisrael.com/famous-coexistence-pic-outed-as-fake/

This famous image shows two boys. One Israeli, the other
Palestinian embracing. They actually were two Jewish
friends from Jerusalem.

If only!

Dear Yuyutsu,

Indeed, which is why I made my comment after I posted the link.

But here are some of the other accounts that informed my position.

Yedioth Ahronoth, a major Israeli newspaper, reported that:
“The pilots realized that there was tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian … The rate of fire against the thousands of terrorists was tremendous at first, and only at a certain point, did the pilots begin to slow down the attacks and carefully select the targets.”

Yoav Zitun, military correspondent for Ynet, the online outlet affiliated with Yedioth Ahronoth wrote: “Twenty-eight fighter helicopters shot over the course of the day all of the ammunition in their bellies, in renewed runs to rearm. We are talking about hundreds of 30 millimeter cannon mortars (each mortar is like a hand grenade) and Hellfire missiles,”.

Also: “The Hamas army, it turns out, deliberately made it difficult for the helicopter pilots and the operators of the UAVs: in the investigation it became clear that the invading forces were asked in the last briefings to walk slowly into the settlements and outposts or within them, and under no circumstances to run, in order to make the pilots think they were Israelis. This deception worked for a considerable time , until the Apache pilots realized that they had to skip all the restrictions.”

http://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b111niukzt

Post-truth mhaze,

Quiet please. Rational people who care about the facts are having a discussion. We can return to your post-truth world in a moment.

Dear SteeleRedux,

Thank you for the article, and the translation is quite good too.

I consider both Haaretz and Ynet (Yediot) to be reliable sources.

According to ynet, two helicopters were the first to be dispatched from Ramat David to the region surrounding Gaza, while according to Haaretz there was only one at the site of the rave party. There is no contradiction - this simply means that they split and the other Apache helicopter went elsewhere within that region.

As the rave party was attacked first, at 6:32, arriving at the party site only between 7:30 and 8:00, means that by then nearly all victims there were already dead.

The Ynet article does not speak of friendly fire, but rather of the pilots' hesitation and how they spared the lives of so many terrorists, explaining why they mostly placed the protection of the Kibbutzim in the too-hard-basket and instead, with only a few exceptions, concentrated at shooting the Gazans as they were crossing the fence.

It is not pleasant to read how the Israeli airforce was tricked by Hamas, but it says nothing about Apaches shooting Israelis, how less so at the party's site, which Ynet does not even mention.

First AC wanted me to "STFU".

Now SR wants me to be "Quiet please."

There is a class of people who really don't like having their errors exposed.

There's going to be a school protest tomorrow
for Palestine. School children are being accused
of being manipulated. Yet many have voiced strong
opinions about the issues involved. Even Jewish
teenagers are going to take part.

Hopefully the demonstrations will be peaceful - but
I guess we'll have to wait and see. There's always
a small minority who turns up and tries to wreck
things.

I haven't been involved in many protest demonstrations.
I remember holding a placard in a pro Lithuanian demo
saying "Ruskie Go Home." It was a peaceful demo -
and well behaved. Not much to write about in the
papers - because there was no violence and therefore
not newsworthy.

We'll see how things pan out on Thursday.

Many of the victims of the barbaric events of 7/10 were burned alive in their houses or safe-rooms. The houses themselves were relatively unscathed but the victims burned beyond recognition.

I wonder how a hellfire rocket managed to do that?

We as by-standers can only gasp at the horror happening.
And try to understand - Why?

And why it continues and a compromise can't be reached.

Casting blame is easy for those of us living outside the
region in comfortable circumstances. We're worlds away.
And we pick and choose our sides accordingly.

Trying to understand seems to be out of our reach.
I pray for the recognition of our common humanity and for
this conflict to end soon. I suspect I am not the only
one doing that. A military force will not end this conflict.
To paraphrase Golda Meir:

"Peace will come in the Middle East only when Israelis and
Palestinians love their children more than they hate each
other."

Foxy,

Of course the school kids are being manipulated. There is no chance this would have occurred without the organisation and coercion from the far left whinge teacher's union.

As with the other protests the unprovoked massacre of Israeli citizens that started this war will be brushed over by the Jew-hating left whinge nut jobs.

As Golda Meir said, military force won't solve this conflict, but neither will letting Hamas survive. This nest of rats needs to be exterminated before the peace process can restart.

Shadow Minister,

I prefer not to argue with you on this subject.

Dear Foxy, but this is for everyone:

You mentioned in passing that "Even Jewish teenagers are going to take part", as if that matters. That is just one example of adding irrelevant information, in fact it resembles the example I gave you earlier about the media reporting, "A pile of books fell on a Catholic librarian".

This may not be a conscious habit, but every time you mention Jews with regard to the Middle-East conflict, every time you connect the two, you only complicate things and push any resolution further away.

This mental knot which ties Israel with Jews, complicates things unnecessarily and is detrimental to peace.

If only you (plural, not just you, Foxy) could ignore the propaganda from both sides and see Israel as a normal country like any else, which it is, and its people like any other normal people, which they are, considering it on its own merit/demerit rather than involving whatever thoughts and feelings you may happen to have about Jews and their history, if only you could see yourself in their place and think of what you would likely be doing in their situation, then everything would become so much easier.

The same goes for seeing all Arabs as "Muslims".

Please break this useless habit, please break this unnecessary and painful knot.

Premier Minns has voiced his objections to the brainwashing of school kids. Whether or not he will put a stop to the nonsense is another matter - probably not. Might lose some votes. It's well past time that politicians on both sides realised that teachers in public schools are public servants, paid by the public, and they should be told what they can and cannot do on matters not directly connected to education in subjects designed to get kids to a job-ready stage. Everything else should be left to parents and/or the kids themselves outside of school hours.

I know that's a big ask with the likes of Albanese only too pleased to have impressionable youngsters brainwashed and drilled by the Communist teacher unions, and the last non-Labor PM wasn't interested in the so-called culture wars.

It's still not clear that the Coalition is prepared to rid itself of the nasty smell of Morrison, but it won't get back into power unless it does.

Yuyutsu,

There are deep layers of history that will need to be
addressed if a genuine attempt is to be made of a resolution.
Nothing like that will happen if we continue to fall into
the trap of treating mythologies as truths.

Colonised people, even under the United Nations Charter, have
the right to struggle for their liberation.
And the successful ending to such a struggle lies in
the creation of a democratic state that includes all of its
inhabitants.

A genuine discussion of the future should be liberated from
all the myths about Israel. Then hopefully this would help
bring peace to both Israel and Palestine.

"To paraphrase Golda Meir...."

That's not a paraphrase....its a complete altering of the meaning.

Dear Foxy,

Yes, I agree that a genuine discussion of the future should be liberated from all the myths about Israel.

Israel's past behaviour has been faulty at times and that needs to be methodically addressed and corrected - but this is not the time for it, because that might be interpreted as a Hamas victory and encourage other terrorists around the world, existing and emerging, giving them cause to believe that they can achieve whatever they want through extreme violence and atrocities.

Once Hamas is eliminated and all hostages returned, then it will be the proper time to address all regional grievances.

As for your suggestion of a single democratic state, you may already be aware that I do not favour large states (including Australia), more so when the people who are supposed to live there do not want them. I believe that people ought to be able to determine their own destiny and laws locally and not be controlled at long distance by others they are unlikely to ever meet in person - but that does not exclude peace and cooperation between them.

I like to see a smaller Israel, within its pre-1967 borders and with equal citizenship to all within these borders, yet without compromising its ability to defend itself.

Yuyutsu,

Constructed fallacies about the past and the present
in Israel and Palestine hinder us from understanding
the conflict. Meanwhile, the constant manipulation of
the relevant facts work against the interest of all
those victimized by the ongoing bloodshed and
violence.

What's to be done?

Clarification of some of the deepest misunderstandings
at the heart of the Israel-Palestine problem, in the
past and in the present needs to be done. History lies
at the core of every conflict.

As long as distortions and inherited assumptions are
not questioned, they will continue to provide an
immunity shield for the present regime in the
land of Palestine.

By examining these assumptions in the light of the
latest research, and setting the historical record
straight - this might have an impact on the chance for
peace and reconciliation to both Israel and Palestine.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I do get where you are coming from but with respect, I think you perhaps ask too much.

There are number of Arab states but the there is only a single, self declared, Jewish State.

That for most of the world the State of Israel being synonymous with the Jewish people in the minds of so many is hardly surprising nor that inaccurate.

Though the edit of the US letter recognising the State of Israel was a little telling I suspect there would be no doubt in the minds of the current political classes there now.

http://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/press-release-announcing-us-recognition-of-israel#:~:text=At%20midnight%20on%20May%2014,on%20January%2031%2C%201949)

Is your view of Israel that it is a Jewish state? If so then your request is perhaps a little cheeky.

'Though the edit of the US letter recognising the State of Israel was a little telling'
What it didn't tell you was that Israel became a nuclear state as a consequence of the US, UK and France agreeing that nuclear armament would be stored there under the pretext of avoiding another Holocaust.
Israel did not construct or develop nuclear armament through any developmental program but was simply a parking station for US nuclear weaponry.
The main reason for the US, UK and France to protect Israel through perceived solidarity is because of Diomona.

They couldn't give a flying 'f' about the Jews or Arabs in the region.
The US, UK and France created the very threat and possibility of a potential Nuclear holocaust and then had the audacity to refuse Iran it's own development when it was Iranian money that France used to develop it's own program.
This is democracy at work, what an effing joke!

"Special" delivery,

That's a wild claim. Do you have any proof?

Thank you Foxy,

I think we have an understanding here.

---

Dear SteeleRedux,

It is tragic that Israel was branded a Jewish state because that was not the intent of its founders, the first Zionists, who built that country in order to escape their Jewish fate and sought to create a Hebrew state instead, together with its local Arabs and anyone else of goodwill.

When formally declaring Israel as a Jewish state, Ben Gurion was forced to compromise and bend over because the world at the time, following the holocaust, felt guilty and wanted to solve the Jewish problem, not his, disregarding the reality of the state-in-formation which was already developing and close to fruition in Israel, with or without the UN.

I think that Ben Gurion showed weakness when he cut corners, saying, "Oh well, this stupid UN likes to call our state this or that, what's in a name anyway?".

Referring to Israel as "Jewish" supports and reinforces the false claims of both the Rabbis' and Hitler's as if "once a Jew - always a Jew".

A Jewish state might have been required had there been any truth in that superstition of "once a Jew - always a Jew", which some in 1948 still believed in, but advancements in archaeology and other objective research have exposed the falsity and forgery of most Jewish legends, including the tales of the Old Testament, showing clearly how historically there never was anything solid called "the Jewish people", how vague that concept was to begin with and how people lightly drifted in and out that cloud over the centuries.

By supporting that view of a solid Jewish entity, you encourage Netanyahu and his gang who use Judaism and its presumed "solidity" as a pretext for their criminal behaviours, while weakening his opposition of moderate and rational Israelis who want peace and normality. I can understand why it is in the twisted interest of Muslim extremists like Hamas to support that view and perpetuate the war situation to their advantage, but I cannot see what possible interest have you in perpetuating that lie?

'That's a wild claim. Do you have any proof'

It's common knowledge that the then Shah of Iran contributed money to France for a share of it's Nuclear research and when the time came to share the research France reneged.

The Dimona nuclear reactor is used to produce plutonium used in atomic bombs. The reactor was purchased from France as part of a secret agreement related to the Suez War, in which the I.D.F. in collaboration with France and England conquered the Sinai Peninsula. Construction of the reactor started late 1957 or early 1958 and was completed in 1962. It began operation (became critical) in 1963.

The reactor is one fueled by natural uranium and deuterium. The French (via the Alsace Corporation) delivered a reactor with a capacity of 24-26 megawatts, which was secretly increased by Israel, first to 70 megawatts and later to 150 megawatts.

Israel tried to argue that the reactor was used for all sorts of civilian and peaceful purposes, certainly not for the production of nuclear weapons. These were all lies; even water desalination and the cultivation of the Negev were used as arguments in order to conceal the true nature of the reactor.

And now we have Iran claiming legitimate purpose to which the Israelis having lied themselves want to claim Iran is deceiving the west.

You asked, you just got told
Try pulling your head out of the sand occasionally

France and England have been running backwards and forwards to Israel during the Gaza fiasco so as to cover their backsides should what can be revealed is revealed to the general public.
If a nuclear explosion goes off in the ME it's down to France and UK

Special Delivery, I see you have no sense of moral / social values of free States and Rogue States. They are all the same too you.

Hi ttbn,
>>Your comment: “For all the people who use the words 'Anti-Semite' and 'Jew hater'.
I wish it would be their friends, families, parents, children being bombed”, is the most outrageous post ever to get past the moderator.

Someone calls you or anyone else an anti-Semite or a Jew-hater, and you want their friends, parents and children bombed.<<

That wasn't exactly what I meant to convey.
What I meant to convey was more this:
'You wouldn't be turning a blind eye to all this reckless killing of women and kids if they were your family';
- If that clarifies it better for you.

And I already told you all.
I'm happy to be labelled ANY name you like if that's what it means to stand against this killing of innocents.

If standing against the killing of innocents means I'm 'Anti-Semitic' 'Jew hater', then sure whatever you say, I'm happy to be called those names and any others you want to call me as well.

Hi mhaze,

"But this is war and Hamas must be eliminated."

This in itself has to be the most dumbest, stupidest leap of logic I've actually ever heard.

You are not eliminating Hamas.
Every bomb and missile dropped and every mother and child killed.
- IS A RECRUITING DRIVE FOR HAMAS.

This is the very essence of the Hydra.
Cut off one head and 2 grow back.

Israel crossed the rubicon with it's settlement building years ago.
Now it shall reap what it has sowed.

When it goes and kills 20,000 people in a little over a month
(many still under the rubble uncounted)
then don't anyone EVER whinge to me about 'Anti-Semitism'
Israel kicked an 'own goal', plenty of anti-semitism to go around.
And don't blame me, because I didn't do it.

Anyone who says 'Anti-Semite' or 'Jew-hater' only says it to shut down legitimate criticism OF Israel.
By this line of thinking anyone who uses those words above during the current situation not only give tacit support to the killing of innocent women and kids, and not only do they lack any ethics or decency, but they wish to stop other peoples criticism of the MURDERS THEY SUPPORT.

I told you all years ago 'ENDS JUSTIFIES THE MEANS IS A TERRORIST MENTALITY'

Well, the ends DO NOT justify the means.
All they're doing is killing innocent people and with it recruiting more Hamas, not eliminating them.
(And they'll also contribute to getting their own IDF killed when they must now fight through streets of rubble)

I'm motivated here by defending the innocent, not killing the guilty.
If I really WAS Anti-Semitic, I wouldn't be defending the innocent, I'd be calling for Israel to kill more of them, because with every single one Israel kills, it digs it's own grave.

The entire Muslim world is peed off now, so anything achieved is certainly not in Israels interests long term.
Israel is just making a bad thing worse for itself.

Hey Charter Boat
- The Russians are storming trenches in Andreevka full Of Ukrainian female soldiers.
http://youtu.be/7Y09279zEQk&t=611

AC,

I mentioned this illogical position to Foxy a while back and now we see it from you. This notion that the Gazans aren't really supportive of Hamas and are therefore innocent victims of the war while simultaneously believing that so many Gazans support Hamas that they are incapable of being eliminated.

Either the Gazans support Hamas and are therefore not innocent bystanders or they are as anxious to be rid of Hamas as the Israelis are. Believing both to be simultaneously true is simply illogical.

My own view based on trying to interpret necessarily questionable surveys is that a much larger position of the Gazans support Hamas than the Palestinian cheer-squad would like to admit, but that a plurality of Gazans look forward to the day they are relieved of the yoke of Hamas rule.

It is true that many more lives are being lost than ought to be necessary but this is because Hamas is hiding behind kids and burkas as they bravely (sic) run away from the IDF. Just today we find evidence that Hamas had tunnels below hospitals, schools and mosques - all war crimes and all ultimately ignored by the pro-Hamas cheer-squad.

Once the war is over, I suspect we'll find large numbers of Gazans anxious to back whatever authority is established, be it international , UN, Israeli or Arab in the hope of establishing a better life for themselves.

The world needs Hamas gone and so do the Gazans.

Opinions on Israel and the Hamas terrorists are riddled with dysrationalia.

Dysrationalia is defined as the inability to think and behave rationally despite adequate intelligence.

It manifests in both the inexperienced, uninformed young and the older cohort of the antisemitic.

Dysrationalia is discussed in 'Why Smart People Can Be So Stupid', Robert Sternberg, 2002.

ttbn,

"Dysrationalia is defined as the inability to think and behave rationally despite adequate intelligence"

"It manifests in both the inexperienced, uninformed young and the older cohort of the antisemitic."

You obviously believe anyone who doesn't think like you as suffering from Dysrationalia.

Once Hamas is gone, Gazan civilians will only be happier:
a nurse and a local man welcome Israel near the Shifa hospital -
http://ynet-pic1.yit.co.il/picserver5/crop_images/2023/11/22/HkBjmpoEp/HkBjmpoEp_0_0_1280_720_0_x-large.jpg

Hi Yuyutsu,

Do you rally believe Palestinians whose children have been killed, and their homes destroyed will simply be "happier" with the demise of Hamas? It would be great if things were so simple, but unfortunate they are not.

Yuyutsu,

Can Hamas be really wiped out when the state of Israel
continues to inflict inhumanity on Gaza?

Such inhumanity is not born in a vacuum . It has a
history and an ideological infrastructure that justifies
it.

If Hamas were to go, which I doubt will ever happen, another organization will take it's place.
You don't forget losing a child, a loved one, just like the Holocaust is never forgotten.
Today's generation of Gazans will not forget this brutality either.

Special Delivery, those that lost their loved ones to the Holocaust, are not fighting Germany or anywhere else for the loss of family members, they learned to forgive. Which is somthing which you do not understand. Hamas is indoctrinated to hate, especially Jews and Kafir and kill them if they do not convert to accept sharia laws.

Josephus,

Germany does not treat people the way Israel treats
the Palestinians. And as for what Islam teaches?
What do you know about the various versions of
Islam and which teachings are followed.
Do you know the difference between Sunni and Sh'ia?


'

Not all people follow their religion in exactly the
same way. Of course there are extremists and
fundamentalists in every religion. But most people
are not card-carrying fundamentalists.

Therefore as with Christianity and Judaism there's
no single way Islam is observed.

There are Muslims virtually in every country on the globe
and their interpretations of the Quran are as varied as
the various cultures in which they live.

We should all know that not all Muslims follow their
religion in exactly the same way just as neither fo
Christians or Jews, or anyone else.

An ‘Arab World for Research & Development’ poll reveals that 75% of residents in Gaza and the West Bank supported Hamas's attack on Israel on 7 October. 59% extreme support, 16% somewhat.

76% had a positive view of Hamas, although that view was more common in the West Bank (88%) than in Gaza (60%).

99% had a negative view of Israel.

75% endorsed a ‘Palestine state from river to sea’, and only 17% supported a two-state solution.

The usual-suspect Western apologists should be giving serious thought to their attempts to de-link these people from Islam, Islamic violence and terrorism to appease the Muslim populations in their own countries.

Terrorist Hamas did win an overall majority in the 2006 elections, which is a bit of a hint.

Special Del, observe how Hamas treats children and women in Gaza as human shields, and in Israel by slaughtering, and burning them alive and taking innocent civilians' hostages. That was Hamas focus, Israel is focused on destroying Hamas fighters and weapons. A different focus, which is beyond your grasp of understanding.

So, you do not believe Hitler treated Jews badly, that is why we have Muslims in the streets in Australia calling for "Gas the Jews". When Hitler gassed 6,000,000 during the holocaust. Islam calls for the same treatment, Eradicate the Jews as their beloved text encourages. Not everyone currently in Israel are Jews, they are a free society with multi ethnicities. Jews began purchasing land in Israel from 1836 and the Arabs Muslims did not like Jews living in their old homelands.

Josephus,

You need to do your research and learn the facts
about the mythologies that you're spounting.

Start with the book : "Ten myths about Israel,"
by Israeli historian - Prof. Ilan Pappe.

Special Del, I have read and own two versions of the Koran, and know how it treats Jews and unbelievers, it is based in violence and hate toward Jews and unbelievers living in their lands.

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas
Since Hamas creation in December 1987, Hamas has invoked militant interpretations of Islam to spearhead a Sunni extremist movement committed to destroying Israel. Hamas distanced itself from the longstanding Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)—an umbrella organization for disparate Palestinian factions that ranged from Marxist to secular nationalists—by propagating resistance in the religious context of jihad, or a holy struggle and martyrdom. “Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes,” Hamas said in its first statement in the late 1980s. Predominantly Shiite Iran has armed, trained and funded Hamas since the late 1980s largely due to its opposition to Israel and Islamic ideology.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/politics/legal-and-political-magazines/zionist-peoples-council-proclaim-establishment-state-israel
The part of the Israel Charter.
We appeal to the United Nations to assist the Jewish people in the building of their state, and to admit the State of Israel into the family of nations.
Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the state on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.
We extend our hand in peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their peoples, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.

Foxy I will not read left wing propaganda. If you read books about the settlement of Australia, you will also find left wing versions of its history. There are always other views, which is why we have different political parties espousing different values.

Dear Paul,

Indeed things are not that simple and every individual is a world unto their own. Most Gazans only know about Israelis through Hamas propaganda, but once they meet and get to know them in person they change their mind, as happened around the Shifa hospital.

«Do you rally believe Palestinians whose children have been killed, and their homes destroyed will simply be "happier" with the demise of Hamas?»

The answer for most of the above is likely a 'no'.
This is because most of the 4000 "children" who died, were teenagers that were killed because their parents allowed them to join the Hamas, giving them a toy gun for their 5th birthday and a real one for their 10th. And as for those whose homes were destroyed, most of them knew that their building was used by Hamas, often even their children's bedroom where rockets and grenades were stored, yet they didn't mind it.

There are exceptions of course, I acknowledge that shÎt does happen and I am sorry for those.

I believe that most Gazans do not belong in the above categories.
I believe that most Gazans suffered under Hamas rule.
I believe that once they get to know Israelis in real life, they will start to like them.

---

Dear Foxy,

«Can Hamas be really wiped out when the state of Israel
continues to inflict inhumanity on Gaza?»

I don't know, I really don't.

All I know is that there is no space for Israel and Hamas to coexist.
If Israel is unable to wipe out Hamas (with or without inflicting inhumanity, that is besides the question) then Israel itself will be wiped out - with all the inhuman consequences that follow. It is as simple as that.

«Such inhumanity is not born in a vacuum . It has a
history and an ideological infrastructure that justifies
it.»

There is inhumanity and sick ideologies on both sides and I do hope that it will be taken care of after the war. Nothing can be done about it till then.

Dear Delivery,

«If Hamas were to go, which I doubt will ever happen, another organization will take it's place.»

Maybe, maybe not.

Death will eventually visit everyone and the next bacteria or virus is always behind the corner, but that does not mean that you stop taking your antibiotics while you can.

Even if what you say is true, then Israelis will buy a few more years to live - even Netanyahu estimated this war to bring 5-10 years of quiet. After that, Israel will have to again do whatever it takes to try to remain afloat. C'est la vie.

Hi mhaze,
"I mentioned this illogical position to Foxy a while back and now we see it from you."
- I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
I'm not sure how you are going to logically argue that killing innocents isn't going to radicalise those remaining.

Think about hollywood movies we've all seen many times.
Kind, caring, placid parent has their child taken hostage.
Kind, caring, placid parent becomes enraged and focused on a single purpose, hunts down hostage takers - KILLS EVERYONE.
We see it in movies, why would you not think that people would not feel and capable of acting this way in real life?

Let's say we have little johnny, lives in Gaza, he's a good boy.
Parent's told him to stay away from Hamas and focus on his studies.
- And he does, keeps away from trouble and on the straight and narrow.

Then his older brother joins Hamas, throws rocks at a tank and gets shot, then taken into an Israeli prison in indefinite detention without charge, but johnnys a good boy.
Then his older sister gets dragged off the street by IDF and raped so that she becomes an informant, but johnnys a good boy.
Some of his cousins are killed by IDF for approaching the perimiter fence, but johnny stays on the straight and narrow.
Then all this war starts and Israel fires a missile that lands on his parents home, his father is killed 9mortally wounded and dies after 3 days), and his mother is maimed, confined to a wheelchair and starts to lose her mind after the death of her husband.
With his father dead and his mother in a wheelchair and there's no income to look after the family, johnny the good kid on the straight and narrow can't turn a blind eye anymore.

[Cont.]
Little good boy Johnny says "Feck it. I tried to do the right thing and stay away from Hamas and out of trouble. The occupiers shot my brother, have him in indefinite detention where we hear he's tortured, they raped my sister, killed two of my my cousins, killed my dad - I watched him suffer and die after 3 days and my mum was maimed and confined to a wheelchair and has started to lose her mind. I can't be the good boy anymore sorry. I tried, I really did but they went too far. I will now will make it my lifes one single purpose to make these people pay."

And little good boy johnny, well, he ain't a good boy anymore.
He's bad, real bad - about as bad as one can get, with no remorse.

I can see this happening.
So what makes you think that killing innocents isn't going to radicalise those remaining?
How many has Israel radicalised in the last 6 weeks?
- Give me a number, in tens of thousands.

Tell me by what retarded leap of logic can you argue that killing thousands of innocent people isn't going to radicalise the rest?

Under what insane mental process do you conclude that little Johnny is going to run up to a member of the IDF and give them a big warm hug and say "Thank-you for saving us from Hamas"?

Is this what you think?

It doesn't matter how many Hamas there were before
What matters is that Israel is just creating more and more doing what it's doing.

[Cont.]
"My own view based on trying to interpret necessarily questionable surveys is that a much larger position of the Gazans support Hamas than the Palestinian cheer-squad would like to admit..."
- I think that's a reasonable assessment.
"...but that a plurality of Gazans look forward to the day they are relieved of the yoke of Hamas rule."
- I think there's some truth to that too, but right now, I'd argue Israel is creating more than it's killing.

I'd also argue that Israel craps on these people, pushes them to the point they act out and when they do, Israel uses it as a pretext to justify more extreme measures against them.

"It is true that many more lives are being lost than ought to be necessary but this is because Hamas is hiding behind kids and burkas as they bravely (sic) run away from the IDF. Just today we find evidence that Hamas had tunnels below hospitals, schools and mosques - all war crimes and all ultimately ignored by the pro-Hamas cheer-squad."

What would you have them do in a place so densely populated, go and find an empty football field to stand in and draw a big red target on their foreheads?

Israel levels an entire building to get one Hamas member.
Who's going to prove there actually was a member of Hamas under the rubble?
And how do we know it wasn't a regular government official as opposed to a member of al-Qassam Brigade?

As for the tunnel, I've seen no conclusive 'evidence'.
Just a picture that could've been taken anywhere in Hamas purported 500klms of tunnels.

Show me footage of IDF walking through the front door of the Hospital down into the tunnel.
Show me footage of the health worker who worked there for 20 years and who firstly said 'no such tunnels existed', now saying 'shite I was wrong there really were tunnels here'

I'm not arguing there's no tunnels, I'm open minded about it, just don't show me 'a picture' and tell me it's evidence.
We all should demand more from the media.

"Special Del, observe how Hamas treats children and women in Gaza as human shields, and in Israel by slaughtering, and burning them alive and taking innocent civilians' hostages. That was Hamas focus, Israel is focused on destroying Hamas fighters and weapons. A different focus, which is beyond your grasp of understanding."

Josephus is attempting a Jedi mind trick.

- "You didn't see a dozen 14 story buildings leveled in under 10 seconds.
You didn't see those dead people dragged out from the rubble.
You didn't see any dead Palestinians strewn all over the road.
You didn't see that 7 year old girl with half her skull and brain missing.
You didn't see parents of dead kids screaming bloody murder.
You didn't see any mass graves or blood stained sheet covered corpses.
You didn't see any footage that showed Israels actions in a bad light, No.
- What you saw was all Hamas."

Hi AC,

I've learned that there are dozens of groups in Gaza, some even more radical than Hamas. These guys are ready and waiting to step in if a void is created by the removal of Hamas by Israel.

For a young bloke to see his family wiped out and his home and future destroyed by those he hates already, what's he got to lose, what's he got live for? What can be expected, the bloke is going to be so radicalised that he'll do anything to seek revenge! Every Israeli bomb kills 10, but creates 20 more radicals at the same time. Agree?

Hi Paul,
"I've learned that there are dozens of groups in Gaza, some even more radical than Hamas."
- That's interesting. I did know there was at least one other group but I really don't know that much about it or other groups.

I knew that not all hostages were being held by Hamas, maybe 30 or 40 of them off memory, and I read that in a mainstream media article.

I remember hearing the phrase 'random Gazan opportunists' somewhere, and have used it in the forum previously to generalise these other (Non-Hamas) groups and people.
They may have also been responsible for at least some of the murders of innocent Israeli civilians.

"What can be expected, the bloke is going to be so radicalised that he'll do anything to seek revenge! Every Israeli bomb kills 10, but creates 20 more radicals at the same time. Agree?"

- Yep, that was exactly my argument.
And let me also say that my opinion here has absolutely nothing to do with supporting one side over the other.
It's simply just stating the reality of the situation.

5000 dead kids, do they not have brothers and sisters, family who loved them and are enraged by the senseless loss?
A large part of the Muslim world is enraged by all this, millions of people protesting...
Why would one not assume the surviving family members of those killed would not be even more enraged than the average incensed Muslim?

Look at how the Israelis are acting about their own loved ones taken hostage, and from what I've heard from those already released, were treated reasonably well.
If people dismiss this argument, (that Israel is not eliminating Hamas, but essentially helping to recruit more by their own actions) then they're probably not in touch with reality, nor capable of considering things rationally.

Hear, hear AC

You cannot bludgeon a large mass of people into total submission, unless you wipe out every last one of them. Hitler realised that with the Jews, in his way of thinking it was no good exterminating just the Jewish leadership, or the the "most dangerous" Jews. Hitler wanted the children exterminated as well, he knew those children would become the next generation seeking revenge.

In this case, there would be those in Israel who want the Palestinians totally exterminated, they've got them where they want em', herded into tiny enclaves call the Gaza Strip and West Bank. It would be a relatively simple task to wipe them all out, but world opinion and other Arab dangers wouldn't allow for that, so there in lies the problem, what's to be the end result for Israel. The ball is totally in the Israels court, the Palestinians have no say in it, they're the ones being held hostage, millions of them.

AC, if you understand Islamic extremists, you will know dying as a martyr is heroic and they are brainwashed and ready for that. They treat death as entering paradise with 72 doe-teed virgins. They do not regard life of others as sacred if they do not claim Mohamed the prophet of God. You watch the 150 Israeli prisoners that are released will immediately take up arms to fight Israel, as they wish to die as martyr Heroes

http://islamqa.info/en/answers/8511/what-are-the-rewards-of-a-martyr

Question
What are the six characteristics of the martyrs (shahid) taught to us from our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him)?

Summary of answer
The martyr has seven blessings from Allah: 1- he is forgiven from the moment his blood is first shed; 2- he will be shown his place in Paradise; 3- he will be spared the trial of the grave; 4- and he will be secure on the Day of Judgement; 5- there will be placed on his head a crown of dignity, 6- he will be married to 72 of al-hur al-‘iyn; 7- and he will be permitted to intercede for seventy of his relatives.
Answer
Praise be to Allah.

It was reported in the hadith of al-Miqdam ibn Ma’di Karb that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

“The martyr (shahid) has seven blessings from Allah: he is forgiven from the moment his blood is first shed; he will be shown his place in Paradise ; he will be spared the trial of the grave; and he will be secure on the Day of the Greatest Terror (the Day of Judgement); there will be placed on his head a crown of dignity, one ruby of which is better than this world and all that is in it; he will be married to seventy-two of al-hur al-‘iyn ; and he will be permitted to intercede for seventy of his relatives.”

According to another report, the martyr has six blessings from Allah. According to other reports (the number is) six, or nine, or ten. (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, who said it is a hasan hadith. Also narrated by Ibn Majah in al-Sunan, by Ahmad, by ‘Abd al-Razzaq in al-Musannaf, by al-Tabarani in al-Kabir, and by Sa’id ibn Mansur in al-Sunan).

And Allah knows best

Paul you are brain-washed on Leftist thinking. Israel is a Western society with Western values, they are not going to wipe out every person in Gaza, there are many Christians and civilized citizens in Gaza. Israel employs over 150,000 Gazan citizens in Israel. They are endeavoring to eradicate an extremist bunch that wants Israel exterminated, "From the river to the sea". This is the chant you hear all aroung the Leftist World. Israel has citizens from every country not only Jews. There are no people called Palestinians they are Arabs living in an area originally called Palestine by the Romans during the time Israel occupied the land.

The name Palestine is derived from the Jewish Hebrew word Pelesheth, which means "Philistia, land of the Philistines". The word Palestine was originally used to refer to the country of the Philistines, but was later extended under Roman rule to all Judea and later to Samaria and Galilee. The word Palestine is also associated with grief-stricken dust-rollers and burrow-diggers.

Andrew Hastie, shadow defence minister, fought in Afghanistan. As such he's seen more brutality than many of us can imagine.

A few days back he was shown the raw footage of 7/10 attack by Hamas's barbarians against innocent Israeli citizens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PzAu7P12LY

Among other things he talked of a man and his sons attacked with the farther executed and one boy losing an eye. Hastie, hardened against brutality, could barely keep it together. (go to 2:10 in the video).

We've also recently seen footage of Israeli citizens fleeing armed barbarians and one girl begging for her life, only to be callously and matter-of-factly shot in the head.

There are hundreds of such stories. Yet precious few of the Hamas cheer-squad here or elsewhere have found even one word of compassion for those murdered. If the rapes and murders of young Jews had been done by a Catholic priest, these same people would be calling for retribution. But Jews don't warrant such compassion.

We saw the misinformed school marchers trying to justify these murders. Such utter ignorance can be forgiven in the young, but not forgiven among those who ought to know better.

Despite these outrages against their people and Hamas's promise to do it again given a chance, Israel, according to these heartless souls, should just turn the other cheek. Just take it on the chin and sit around waiting for the next outrage, which they would also be admonished to not respond to.

That's not how the world works

Jose'

Brain washed,me, no you. There are radical Zionist, a minority of politicians and others in Israel who want every last Palestinian eradicated from the face of the earth. The present Israeli government is the most extreme the country has ever seen, with committed radical Zionists having a disproportional say. I don't believe these radical extremists will hold sway and get their wish, but if Netanyahu can't prevent it then external forces and opinions might.

How would YOU see the future for Palestinians, with thousands dead, and the survivors living under atrocious conditions, lacking the basic essential for life in a bombed out ghetto that is Gaza.

Are you in favour of Australia taking in about 800 Palestinian refugees from Gaze. Or are you like the racists Dutton riling against such a humanitarian act, but saying nothing about the 1700 Israeli refugees coming under the same conditions. DUTTON IS A RACISTS!

"Andrew Hastie, shadow defence minister, fought in Afghanistan. As such he's seen more brutality than many of us can (not) imagine." Judging by the findings of a Royal Commision, Gung-Ho Hastie might have been closer to the action than many of us can imagine.

One option for Gazans who want a better life for their kids would be to move to a different Muslim state like Egypt or Jordan or Kuwait of Lebanon.

Oh wait, they can't do that because these Muslim brothers don't want a bar of the so-called Palestinians. I wonder why?.

http://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1725842440295166376

"Unlike bleeding-heart liberals in America, Arabs know their history".

Yes they do... http://twitter.com/HeavenBoundOrg/status/1718279538160042050

Israeli historian - Professor Ilan Pappe
tells us that:

There are deep layers of history that will need to
be addressed if a genuine attempt is to be made at
a resolution.

It needs to be recognized that after World War II,
Zionism was allowed to become a colonialist project
at a time when colonialism was being rejected by the
civilized world because the creation of a Jewish
state offered Europe and West Germany in particular,
an easy way out of the worst excesses of anti-Semitism
ever seen.

Israel was the first to declare the recognition of " a
new Germany" - in return it received a lot of money.
but also, far more importantly, a carte blanche to turn
the whole of Palestine into Israel.

Zionism offered itself as the solution to anti-Semitism
but became the main reason for its continued presence.
The "deal" also failed to uproot the the racism and
and xenophobia that that still lies at the heart of
Europe , and which produced Nazism on the continent
and a brutal colonialism outside of it.

That racism and xenophobia is now turned against Muslims
and Islam , since it is intimately connected to the
Israel-Palestinian question. It could be reduced once that
a genuine answer to that question is found.

We all deserve a better ending to the Holocaust. This
could involve a strong multicultural Germany showing the
way to the rest of the world, an American society dealing
bravely with with the racial crimes of its past that still
resonate today. and an Arab world that expunges its
barbarism and inhumanity.

But nothing like that will happen if we continue to fall
into the trap of treating mythologies as truths.

Colonized people even under the UN Charter, have the right
to struggle for their liberation, even with an army, and
the successful ending to such a struggle lies in the
creation of a democratic state that includes all of its
inhabitants.

Any discussion of the future will hopefully be liberated
from the myths about Israel which will help to
bring peace to Israel and Palestine.

Ahhhh.... Professor Ilan Pappe. The go to 'historian' for those who prefer the warm inner glow to the facts.

As one commentator said of Pappe, "At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest. In truth, he probably merits a place somewhere between the two."

Fabricated quotes, deliberate mistranslations. Distortions abound. But he tells those of a certain leaning what they want to hear and nobody ever went broke telling the left what it wants to hear.

Meanwhile even Pappe doesn't dispute the reasons why Palestinians are unwelcome in other Muslim nations.

"Yet precious few of the Hamas cheer-squad here or elsewhere have found even one word of compassion for those murdered."

Keyword here is 'context'.

I'm not a follower of Islam so don't assume I support Hamas.

I do however recognise that Palestinians have their own right to self defense.
Israel should state it's bloody borders and stop taking land!
UNSC Resolution 2334 was passed in December 2016 by 14 votes to zero, condemning 'the construction and expansion of settlements'.

Just about everyone on this forum supports Ukraine's right to self defense, those same people do not recognise Palestinians also have this right to defend their territory.

When this first happened I saw the images of dead Israeli middle aged women piled on top of each other at a bustop dressed nicely for Yom Kippur, and I was disturbed by it and denounced it.

And many times I have openly stated I do not support the killing of innocent people, non combatants, but that IDF are legitimate targets.
They are there helping settlers to run Palestinians off the land, with the approval of the government, so neither the IDF or the Israeli government are innocent.

What about in 2018 - 2019, Great March of Return.
Israel killed 223 Palestinians for simply 'approaching' the border fence, not even crossing it.
Put this in perspective.
What if I'm your neighbour and I told you if you 'If you come within 2 metres of the fence that marks the property line, I will shoot you dead.
Does that sound fair and reasonable? No.

You want me to be upset about the innocent Israeli's killed.
I was and I told you all how my feelings would change if Israel kept murdering innocent Palestinians in revenge.

You want me to be emotionally distraught by up close and personal murder of Israelis, but you think killing thousands from afar with missiles and bombs is somehow less confronting.

Israel will end up turning this thing into a wider conflict with Islamic middle eastern nations banding together and coming down upon them.

UNSC Resolution 2334 has nothing to do with Gaza. So totally irrelevant.

We need to look at who's doing the criticism of Prof.
Ilan Pappe and why.

The criticism is not surprising given that
Professor Pappe's work has sought to challenge
the accepted truths of a divided land and led to him
being forced to resign from the University of Haifa
in 2007.

The noted Israeli academic show now teaches at Exeter
University in the United Kingdom presents the history of
Israel in a way that encompasses the narrative of the
Palestinian people. A bold ambition in a society in
which militarism, nationalism, and religion are potent
unifying forces.

Praise for Pappe comes from a variety of people.

Here's just a few:

"Along with Edward Said, Ilan Pappe is the most eloquent
writer of Palestinian history."( New Statesman)

" One of the most prominent Israeli political dissidents
living in exile. He is also one of the few Israli academics
of the conflict who writes about the Palestinian side with
real knowledge and empathy."

He is an outspoken Israeli historian who examines the most
contested ideas concerning the origins and identity of the
contemporary state of Israel.

"UNSC Resolution 2334 has nothing to do with Gaza. So totally irrelevant."

Lol, There's no Israeli settlements in Gaza you fool.

For anyone else who's interested in the resolution:
http://www.un.org/webcast/pdfs/SRES2334-2016.pdf
- Even the US abstained on this one.

And here:
Israel’s Settlements Have No Legal Validity, Constitute Flagrant Violation of International Law, Security Council Reaffirms
http://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

Or you can ignore that and support Israels land theft...
But don't whinge when enraged Palestinians murder Israelis.
This is a case of FAFO

[Feck Around and Find Out, abbreviated as FAFO, is a slang catchphrase warning that taking negative steps will result in unwanted consequences.]

Israel can't have it's cake and eat it too.

'Play stupid games, win stupid prizes'

'Reap what you sow'

Hi Special Delivery,
"France and England have been running backwards and forwards to Israel during the Gaza fiasco so as to cover their backsides should what can be revealed is revealed to the general public.
If a nuclear explosion goes off in the ME it's down to France and UK"

They had better nuke Erdogan if they do, otherwise he'll get a nuke from Pakistan or build his own using enriched uranium from Iran.
Erdogan is the de-facto leader of Sunni Islam, (Hamas is Muslim Brotherhood sect of Sunni Islam)
Even without a nuke Erdogan can assemble 2 million man army in a few months if need be, and he openly supports Hamas and considers Israel a terrorist state.

"Lol, There's no Israeli settlements in Gaza you fool."

Yes and UNSC Resolution 2334 was about settlements. Therefore it had nothing to do with Gaza. I can't understand why that so difficult for you to fathom.

post-truth mhaze,

You write of an emotional Andrew Hastie and about "recently seen footage of Israeli citizens fleeing armed barbarians and one girl begging for her life, only to be callously and matter-of-factly shot in the head."

When I saw that footage my mind went straight to one of our SAS soldiers in Afghanistan murdering a defenceless man cowering in a field holding prayer beads.

This is the kind of culture which was allowed to develop in Afghanistan under leaders like Hastie.

So spare me his crocodile tears on this. They really aren't worth jack.

SR as usual, when he sees something he'd prefer to not be true, tries to change the subject. Not playing.

SR implies Hastie was involved in executions in Afghanistan. Not playing.

My point was that the barbarities on 7/10 were so horrific that even hardened men were moved. Of course the victims were Jews so SR isn't the slightest moved.

But what happened explains to those of even moderate compassion why Israel must ensure this can never happen again.

"Yes and UNSC Resolution 2334 was about settlements. Therefore it had nothing to do with Gaza. I can't understand why that so difficult for you to fathom."

Settlements have nothing to do with Gaza...

Ah yeah I see, you're one of those people who thinks the entire problem is Hamas, and that if it wasn't for them, Palestinians would be happy singing kumbayas in their open air concentration camp.

That they don't care about stolen land, or being subjugated or anything Israel does.
In your mind if it wasn't for Hamas, the Palestinians would be dancing with their Israeli friends in the streets.

You're one of those people who probably strongly objected when Antonio Guterres said the conflict didn't happen in a vacuum.
- Maybe there's a vacuum between your ears...