*to suggest that the minaret ban isn't an example of religious intolerance is just ludicrous. the fact that it's petty and dumb doesn't mean it's not intolerant.*

Fair enough bushbasher, as an average Aussie, you clearly don't
know much about the topic, so I found a couple of URls for you,
to try and explain it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minaret_controversy_in_Switzerland

http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2009/11/30/minarets-and-islamic-supremacism/

You are confusing Islam as a religion, which is not about minarets,
and Islam as a political movement, which is very much about
minarets. Big difference!

No Muslim needs minarets to be a muslim and Islam is not banned
in Switzerland.

The very reason that this became an issue, was that some Muslims
decided to ignore the wishes of the locals, when it came to
architecture and challenged it in the courts. It became a political
issue, so people responded and held a referendum to change the
constitution, they won.

I see no reason why religion should be exempt from local planning
laws, after all, nobody else is exempt.

I remind you that when the Swiss Govt wanted to join the EU, the
people rejected it. For very good reasons, democracy in its true
sense prevailed, politicians could not do as they pleased and
to this day, Switzerland is not a member of the EU.

Australians could in fact learn something from the Swiss system
of democracy.

grateful,

Here are some more quotes straight from the camel's mouth:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 67, Number 427
"By Allah, and Allah willing, if I take an oath and later find something else better than that. then I do what is better and expiate my oath."

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 89, Number 261:
"If you ever take an oath to do something and later on you find that something else is better, then do what is better and make expiation for your oath."

"Better" for who or for what?

Better for the idolater?
Or, better for Islam?

What would Mohammed do?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/WWMD.htm

Pericles,

"Rabid Christians quoting their favourite passages from the Qur'an, ad nauseam, and providing references from totally unbiased sources such as the Islam Monitor."

So you do not call for tolerance of rabid christians? Christianaphobia?

Muslims are in many shades. If we are simplistic and break it down into two - liberal muslim and conservative muslim many would actually support the liberal Islamic interpretation. However we are too often demanded to tolerate the conservative so present another obstacle to the liberal muslim to overcome.

We do not have to, or should be even asked to tolerate any religion but only to respect the individual right to hold this belief system. There should be no law to demand tolerance, that is loss of freedom. When people are supressed from speaking their views the feelings will rise in such ways as we see here, a ban on minaret. Feelings come out in one way or another and speech is the least offensive expression of all.

In Switzerland many muslims supported the minaret ban. The minaret holds no interest or tradition for them. They do not want political Islam. They were also offended by Libya. It would have been better to support the liberal or cultural muslim than be either pro or anti conservative. That would have been recognition of the acceptable or more compatible aspect and far more in line with traditional liberal values of the left. However because the left do not represent the liberal muslim but the more extreme conservative then they force an extremist reponse.

As many muslim moderates say we have two enemies, conservative Islam and the western left who support them.

yabby,

1) i'm not an aussie.

2) andrew bostom seems pretty clearly to be anti-islamic, and a conspiracy nut.

3) i have no idea why you linked to the wikipedia article. it was interesting and informative, and seems to make clear that the minaret ban was an example of religious intolerance.

if you don't know the long history of attacking groups by indirect and disingenuous legal bans, perhaps you should read more. maybe someone other than bostom.

It is only intolerance of extremism. Majority swiss muslims agree they do not need a minaret and many oppose them. It was the way it was done that needs addressing but forcing a structure that neither Swiss or swiss muslims want is not religous tolerance. It is pandering to extremists. It just means that people do not understand and should perhaps admit that. There is no need for minarets in Switzerland. There should have been no need for a referendum. The real issue is why it became one and that is more offensive to muslims than minarets. I think it best to address that than force something on a nation that they do not want.

Bushbaser, as it happens I don't "read Bostom", but the link
came up, when I searched. Given that the details about minarets
being an Islamic political statement came from the Brill
Encyclopedia of Islam, who the messenger is, I really don't care.

The Wickipedia article explained the background of the dispute,
which was about a group of Muslims, challenging the local
planning laws in the courts.

Why should religions be exempt from local planning laws?

As it happens, tourism is a huge income earner for Switzerland
and its those picture postcard views of Central Europe that
Americans spend a fortune each year to see for themselves.

A town like Lucerne, with its cobblestone streets and houses
hundreds of years old, a famous wooden bridge etc, would
look decidely odd with a bunch of huge minarets sticking out of
the middle.

So I would have voted for the ban too, for political as well
as commercial reasons. That does not stop anyone from practising
their Muslim faith in Switzerland. Minarets could not even
have a use, for the call to prayer at 5 am would contravene the
noise pollution laws.

The fact that the Swiss are taking a stand against political Islam
is great to see. Leave political Islam where it belongs, in the
Middle East. For wherever political Islam goes, trouble surely
follows. That is quite distinct from people practising their
Muslim faith, wherever they please. Nobody has banned the building
of mosques.

If you can't see the difference, then I can't really help you
either lol.