How weird, but not surprising. I asked if you could tell me how many unarmed Muslim civilians are killed monthly by Americans, and why this doesn't make newspaper headlines, like the recent Nigerian would be bomber. Instead, all I get is websites telling me how many Muslims kill Muslims. I offered you a chance to show that you were not totally unbalanced. Alas, you confirmed instead how your only concern is to highlight news that throws a negative light on Islam.

No doubt if I asked you what was the religion of the victims of Europe's greatest massacre since World War Two, and what was the religion of those who carried out that massacre, you would try to wriggle out of that one as well.

This thread is not a dialogue, its a screaming match. I don't think you are interested in gaining a growing understanding of anything, you simply have your minds made up, and closed down, and you want to shout the opposition down. Too much testosterone probably. So, I am checking out now. Good night and good luck.

CJ, Steven uses very strong language. I would not use words like "hate" and "loathe" in describing Islam.

However, I do think it is necessary to stand up to the demands of the Islamics. I think there is a real danger that if we are too accommodating we could find one of two things happening to our society. The first is that society becomes balkanised with each religious and ethnic group retreating into its own community. Perhaps 'Lebanonised' is a better word.

The second possibility is that increasingly freedom of expression is stifled in order to avoid offending Muslims and other parties – notably the Jews who appear to be as allergic to comments about Israel as Muslims are to critique of their faith.

In truth I think we need both Stevens (bad cops) and CJs (good cops). The 'bad cops' remind us that the fight against religious oppression was hard fought and we should not surrender our liberties lightly no matter how much their exercise might offend some. The role of the good cops is to demonstrate to Muslims that not everyone hates them and that there is a path into mainstream society for them. They do not have to assimilate but they do have to accept certain aspects of our society one of which is that Australians feel free to say what they like when they like and that in Australia Islam is just one more of a variety of competing faiths. They also need to understand that they cannot impose their beliefs on people of other faiths and of no faith.

While I would not express myself as robustly as Stephen I tend to the 'bad cop' side.

CJ, as one of the resident 'good cops' how do you feel about this analysis. Do you at the very minimum agree that it is necessary to stand up to the demands of religious groups?

kristin, cj can of course answer for himself. however, i would suggest that in australia the most vocal religious demands, and those most acquiesced to, are from christian groups.

I'm with bushbasher on this.

>>i would suggest that in australia the most vocal religious demands, and those most acquiesced to, are from christian groups<<

Having put forward the proposition, Kristin, you might like to give it a little more substance.

>>...I do think it is necessary to stand up to the demands of the Islamics<<

Could you enlighten us as to the "demands of the Islamics" that we need to resist?

I can think of many demands made on society by Christians, and Christian groups. But if there have been any made by Muslims, I have not noticed them, at least not in my neck of the woods.

Did you hear that in a desperate attempt to prevent the introduction of sharia law the brave Swiss are about to ban the importing and breeding of camels?

Bushbasher and Pericles, in my view the most important Islamic demand to be resisted is the one Stephen identified. This is the attempt to reintroduce anti-blasphemy laws into Western countries under the guise of outlawing what the Islamics call 'defamation of religion'. Victoria's Racial and Religious Tolerance Act is, in fact, a thinly disguised anti-blasphemy law.

Do you know of any mainstream Christian denomination that seeks the re-introduction of anti-blasphemy laws in Western countries? However, if the Islamics succeed in having defamation of religion outlawed you may be certain the Christians will take advantage of it.

In Germany and Britain de facto sharia courts operate. I hope this is never permitted in Australia. It is hard to know where this would stop. If you permit sharia courts how can you refuse Catholics the option to have cases heard under canon law?