That's precisely my point, Yabby.

>>...if we look at the reality of Islamic countries, intolerance is the name of the game. If you think I'm wrong, name me the list of Islamic countries where people have free speech as we do.<<

Why is it that you believe that we should emulate their intolerance?

It is not an argument that I can accept.

Just because other countries deny religious freedom, or ban architectural features that they disapprove of, doesn't mean that we should do the same.

Although in the case of Blues Point Tower, I might be persuaded to make an exception.

By the way, bushbasher, I don't think HermanYutic is actually Boaz. Just a - less interesting - clone.

Mind you, this thread is now a mirror image of many that were previously Boaz-influenced.

Rabid Christians quoting their favourite passages from the Qur'an, ad nauseam, and providing references from totally unbiased sources such as the Islam Monitor.

Which is a source short on fact, and extremely long on editorial.

What continues to puzzle me is the extraordinary level of fear in their voices, as they flail around trying to convince themselves that the Saracen hordes are descending.

Yabby's response is typical.

>>So what was agreed and offered today, might all change tomorrow, once Islam dominates.<<

They seem to have this fixation, that unless they spend their entire waking hours "proving" that Muslims are thoroughly bad fellows, they will soon feel the business end of a scimitar.

I feel genuinely sorry for anyone who wastes their life on such fruitless emotion.

They're far more likely to get ulcers from the stress, or suffer a heart attack from the high blood pressure, than be stoned to death for apostasy or whatever.

It's not healthy, people.

Pericles: "It's not healthy, people."

Yes. Some seem to view the world through "its us or them" glasses, and then go to great lengths to justify why we would all be better off without "them".

In one sense you are wasting your time fighting it, as from what I can tell the belief is implanted deeper than rational argument can reach. Yabby is but one example, but to give him his due it isn't just anti-Muslim. He treats all outsiders equally. Which is bit odd, since he is a South African immigrant himself. However, I'd be surprised if any of the people you are arguing with here are much different in their outlook. All are presenting essentially tribal arguments, and all view everyone outside their tribe with deep suspicion.

In another sense of course it is good you persist in putting up counter arguments. While they have no effect on the people you are arguing with, it gives us who are watching on solace in our views.

*Why is it that you believe that we should emulate their intolerance?*

Pericles, I am not suggesting that at all. You have to separate
religion and politics here and the freedoms that we now have did
not happen by accident, they were hard fought for. The Catholic
Church used to burn people like me and alot of blood was shed
for those freedoms which we take for granted. I don't take them
for granted and you imply that you'd go live somewhere else, which
is the easy cop out. I do try and learn from history.

The Swiss have not denied anyone the freedom to practise their
religion. I fight for the freedom of religion, but also the freedom
from religion.

Its my understanding that architecture of various kinds, is regulated
in much of Europe, under the various building codes. Building
materials, colours, etc, specified to fit in with the local
environments, to avoid eyesores.

I try not to argue about things which I don't understand and some
years ago I sat down and took the time to understand the fundamentals
of Islam and in the process, learnt the difference between Islam
and political Islam, also the history of old Mohammed, who was
an interesting fellow. So I have no problem with Catholics
or Muslims believing whatever they wish, but I have an issue
with political religion wanting to deny me the freedoms that I
now enjoy.

* since he is a South African immigrant himself.*

Not so rstuart, I am actually Swiss.

You are not the brightest of buttons at times :)

“You say one just has to look at the history of Islam..that it was spread by the sword...o.k then provide the proof from real scholars who would know”, grateful

You could refer to http://www.historyofjihad.com/ whose contributors are professors of some famous universities.

M.A. Khan who gave up Islam when he investigated the truth of what ex-Muslim Ali Sina wrote about Islam

“ I stumbled on the Faith Freedom International (FFI) Website sometime after the 9/11 attacks. That was the first time I came across such an intensely hateful and anti-Islamic site. I took a couple of days reading; I was extremely angry with Dr. Ali Sina and his contributors for their mindless attacks on Islam, a religion of peace and humanity. I took pennames and started writing all sorts of abusive comments against FFI and its writers.”

“My Journey to Freedom” http://www.islam-watch.org/MA_Khan/MeherApostacy.htm

It may be dangerous for you to visit these websites because you could either renounce Islam like MA Khan or turn the other way to become a jihadist suicide bomber in disgust at hearing the truth about Islam from infidels.

“Would you go out of your way to extol the virtues of life in the Soviet Union? Or would you make a point of emphasising how bad it was?” : Pericles

One of the greatest critics of Islam I came across is a Muslim who published the book “Malaysia and the club of doom --The collapse of Islamic countries” by Syed Akbar Ali.

Chapter 1 – The failed states. In this chapter, the author states the Characteristics of Failed Countries as:

1. Restrictions on free flow of information
2. The subjugation of women
3. inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure
4. The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social organization
5. Domination of a restrictive religion
6. A low valuation of education
7. Low prestige assign to work

“But among all the Islamic countries, religion seems to have a larger and life role in ultimately causing state failure

In Chapter 2: Pakistan – a failed “Islamic” State? The author contrasts the secular India and Islamic Pakistan and concluded that India has fighting chance of crawling out of its hole.

Chapter 3: …“(1) There is a general “tidak apa” or “don’t really care” attitude about hygiene, cleanliness and taking care of children” (2) the subtle breakdown of law and order for Muslim – While non-Muslims in Malaysia are bless by God with a set of Just and fair law, the Muslims have to contend with religious enactment….religion apartheid against Muslim women…”, (3) In Malaysia religion is getting more intrusive into peoples’ daily live… moral squad.. , and (4) Aversion to hard work.

Chapter 4: Muslim violence is so predictable

Chapter 5: Denial – The fuel of falsehood

http://www.thai-blogs.com/index.php/2006/12/03/malaysia_and_the_club_of_doom_the_collap?blog=17#ixzz0ZMELwiXp

When there are many ex-Muslims of differing races and nationalities that speak the same thing about Islam, it is time to take note of what they are saying rather than shut our eyes and ears to the dangers of Islam.

for christ's sake yabby. if you're gonna be anti-islam, at least be honest about it. to suggest that the minaret ban isn't an example of religious intolerance is just ludicrous. the fact that it's petty and dumb doesn't mean it's not intolerant.

pericles, i'd look more closely at yutic's phrasing. he's avoiding capitals, but it's astonishingly boazy.