Otokonoko,

I understand that is what people say about the confessional - but it begs the question then why have it?

It maybe following Jesus' statement in Matthew 18:19 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."

Maybe the Church sought to guarantee the presence of Jesus for their members.

The Lords Prayer Matthew 6:12 "Forgive us our trespasses and forgive those who trespass against us" also has great relevance as Jesus pronounces a direct link to the alleged God for forgiveness.

Does the priest really get Catholics to say "Our Fathers" and "Hail Marys" and where does this come from?

The Catholic encyclopaedia doesn't seem to agree with you though http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01061a.htm

It states that the priest has the power to give absolution. Is absolution the "forgiving of sin?"

Mark 2:10 states "the son of man has the power to forgive a sin" but it doesn't give man this power?

This goes to the core problem I have with religions commenting on moral issues and other issues.

1. Have they removed the logs from their own eyes before removing the specks? Matthew 7:3-5

2. Even though Jesus was specifically silent on homosexuality Christians and Religions use it as a form of judgement Matthew 7. Is this a diversionary tactic away from the crimes that have been committed within their structures? Is that a Christian tactic?

3. Is the confessional Christian?

4. Just because tradition and formality presents these things to us should Christians focus more on questioning man's systems? The Bible is the guidebook!

As the alleged God knows all things before, present and in the future he knew we would fail the test of original sin. Isn't it obvious he wanted us to have an inquiring mind?

Is the test for Christians, using such a mind, to not follow blindly (Matthew 15:12-14)the rules and ceremonies of man, but, instead to think it through, and relate how it applies to his alleged words from the Bible?

The Bible is quite instructive on these matters!

Here we go. Hopefully, Opinionated2, this will help you understand where I'm coming from. If it doesn't, I'm sorry!

First, a disclaimer: what follows is my understanding of matters relating to confession and absolution. It could be wrong.

Catholics acknowledge that only God can forgive sin. Only God and the sinner can really understand the depth of the sinner's contrition; a priest only makes an educated guess. In the case of confession, the priest is merely a middleman. He listens to the confession, gives advice and gauges the extent of repentance. Obviously, some people are good liars - they may fake contrition to fool the priest; some also "invent" sins so they have something to confess. Priests, like any other human beings, can make mistakes. They may grant absolution in these situations, which means that in the eyes of the Church the sinner is absolved. What the priest says, however, is not necessarily what God says. How can He forgive a sin that never happened? How can He forgive when the sinner is not sorry?

Essentially, then, the absolution granted by the priest is no guarantee of forgiveness. It is conditional. The undertone is that "if you are truly sorry, then you are forgiven; I (the priest) believe that you are truly sorry". A further undertone is that "if you come back next week and confess to a repeat of this sin, then you are probably not truly sorry". The Church relies on honesty in this regard - no doubt thousands of people receive communion each week when they are not in a state of grace, though the Church assumes that they are. Far from judging the sinner, the priest gives him the benefit of the doubt.

Does this render confession irrelevant? Some may argue that it is pointless, but I think it is a valuable service to those who use it properly. If nothing else, it gives Catholics an opportunity to think about their sins and acknowledge wrongdoing, so that they can be better people in the future. It can be abused, but it can also be used effectively.

>> Does the priest really get Catholics to say "Our Fathers" and "Hail Marys" and where does this come from?

george pell's latest piece of whingeing nonsense made me cry "holy christ!". does that count?

TY Otokonoko. I appreciate your frank, honest reply on difficult issues.

I feel sorry for Catholics. Catholics are believers in a faith that should, bring out the best in all of it's followers.

If the clergy handled ugly issues in a Jesus-like manner, the ordinary Catholic would be less burdened.

Do Catholics receive the flack whilst other religious groups, that have taken similar wrong decisions, get to blend in with the crowd and are spared much of the criticism?

Do ALL religions have skeletons, and, if so aren't they letting down their alleged God?

I can find nowhere where Jesus suggested the confessional.

Is it a bad thing? Probably not, for the average Catholic, if used the way you suggest, but from a societal perspective I do consider it misguided.

If a person who has committed a crime can find, a pretend absolution, then it is against the rule of law. Could the confessional, with priests confessing to priests, instead of involving the police, be one of the reasons that in your religion at least their is a great reluctance to report very serious crimes?

Could it be that the Church puts itself above the law?

Could the confessional have protected far too many criminal acts from ever being referred to the police?

If this is the case then isn't the confessional a tool, misused by some, for covering crime, rather than encouraging the reporting of it?

Is this misuse unChristian? What would Jesus expect his churches to do?

Doesn't the actions of Churches, in failing to report serious and horrid crimes against people, undermine the very fabric of what Christianity allegedly stands for?

So, why don't Catholics insist, that their leaders, hand all known and suspected perpetrators of these crimes over to the police, for independent investigation?

When you call yourself Christian, does one take on the obligation of representing Christ as much as one can, as best as one can? Do religions protect Christ's name?

Why isn't the reporting of all crime initiated and insisted upon by the members of religions? Is it really the victims responsibilty?

Dear Bushbasher,
Three scriptures that have always puzzled me are
1 Judge not lest you be judged.
2 Judge all things.
3 Decern all spirits.
All about judging.
1. is about the flesh and sin which we all have in common while we are in the body. All have sined none is exempt so finger pointing is not right.
2. Is about judging from a diferent perspective. Read the works of the flesh and the works of the spirit to understand the diference.
3 As you judge situations by decernment of the spirit you see by the manifestation which tree it comes from, for the tree of life produces
good fruit {positive}, or the tree of knowledge produces bad fruit {negative}.Allways remember the fight is not against flesh and blood
{people} but against the evil rulers of the unsean world. The word is our weapon "The Sword of the Spirit". That is why Jesus comanded us to love one an other and to pray for those who persecute you.

richie10, i assume your post was directed to O2.