Jujutsyu
I am open about my sources which you are not.What we get are half-baked ideas of your own manufacture.
If I keep pointing out the "Jewishness" of my sources it is quite openly and not through the back door."Should I care" you say. You should because the sources are from learned people who are universally recognised for their views;they make comments that are widely respected.That doesnt seem to be acceptable to you.
You are softening your stand, I see..You can actually bring yourself to admit that the term "zionist" is not so widely popular these days in Israel.It must have been hard for you.How come?Have you quietly been educating yourself and discovered how off the mark you have been?But that's ok Yuyutsu, that'scalled learning.You are a little wiser now and better off for it.

Cheers,mate.

socratease

Socratease,

You say that I have softened, that I learned: I think that taking part in this forum and others has helped me sharpen my views on what's important and what's not. My views have not changed in essence, but got clarified.

I am soft about immaterial things, nonsense ideas such as Jewishness and zionism, but I am hard as ever when it comes to the lives of my family: I want everyone to live happily, including the Palestinians. I am not interested in territory either, I don't want to hurt anyone, but if it comes to that, I rather have a million Palestinians killed than one of my family lose a finger.

It is a tragedy that in order to survive, my family has to fight alongside those disgusting hooligan settlers, but what choice they have? they stand with their backs to the sea.

It is painful for me to see how each terrorist attack and each rocket fired into Israel strengthens the Israeli "Right", the settlers and their supporters. My family and I stand helpless, yet they keep being ostarcized by a world that bundles all Israelis together and does not understand the differences.

There is the "law of return": it is unjust, but it is the only means to ensure supply of loyal-population to defend the state of Israel against demographic overthrow (other than ethnic-cleansing which is worse). As far as I am concerned, those immigrants need not be Jews, they could be Koreans, or even better - why not take in the Kurds from Iraq, who would make excellent loyal citizens?

So what about the Palestinians?
I would like to accept them into the family, but sorry, their track-record is such that I could not trust most of them. I would like to give them as much as I can so long as it does not risk my family. If I see them changing their ways, then they should have everything they want, but sorry - my family comes first, and as it stands now, a strong Israel is the only guarantee for their survival..

David, what a thought provoking article.

Yutyutsu, it is all about tribes and all about history. History more ancient even than 60 years. Both for the Jewish people and the Palistinians.

You do not want a finger of your family harmed, neither does a Palestinian I imagine.

Like you do not want to be associated with the radical element in Israel there are likely Palestinians who do not want to be associated with the radical element in Palestine.

You claim Israeli's will be pushed into supporting the more extreme section of Israeli politics if there is to be criticism of Israel's actions. Why do you think Palestinians would react any differently when viewing their plight? They too will be pushed to the more radical element. 'The rest of the world does not understand us and the harm that is being done to us'.

It is ingenious of you to dismiss history. If young Israeli's are thinking like you are how very sad. They've been as hoodwinked then in their education of history as the Japanese educated after 1945. They too have a simplistic view of their history.

Israel will continue to exist. They will be supported to that end by many in the world, but it will be difficult to come to a lasting agreement with two foes hell-bent on hanging onto the victim status.

Who has suffered more? Are we only looking locally over the last 60years or are we going to include Warsaw ghettoes, the despicable complicity of the British turning back fleeing Jewish people in rickety boats trying to get to safety from Europe in the grip of Nazism? Who is the bigger more deserving victim and will therefore need most praise for consesions?

Sorry, I personally do not see this conflict as one between a good-guy and a bad-guy. Perhaps the rest of the world should step in tell both sides to shut up, do the colonial thing and draw a straight line in the middle of entire area.

Yuyutsu,
You perhaps travel to a slightly different drumbeat to that of David f, but nevertheless you have the legitimate desire for the survival of 'your own' with its inherent but also necessary link to a 'strong' Israel. The established 'Peace of Wesphalia' (1648), with its principle of territorial integrity will be largely forgotten in the 'West'. A more pragmatic view will prevail amongst a certain utilitarian elite, this being , 'it is good for a small, insignificant nation to be dissolved to promote & preserve the peace of the world'. An insidious 'doctrine' lurks beneath, akin to Jung's collective unconscious.

The truly horrific atrocities in human history - the enslavements, the inquisitions, the terrorisms, the genocides, have been perpetrated not in hot blood but in cold - not as a result of urgent and immanent feeling but in the name of a transcendent ideology and as a result of painstaking indoctrination.

The vast majority of Germans in World War II did not personally and passionately hate the Jews: they had never even met the men, women, children, and infants whom they would eventually butcher en masse. It was, for the most part, a methodically drilled-in ideology that powered the genocide machine, a machine that killed six million Jews despite the fact that the Germans did not hate them.

That Israel is the devil, the root of all evil, a criminal cancer that must be excised from the Muslim body politic - these propositions are not ephemeral feelings, lets say for instance, Iranian Muslims, but rather eternal truths that gradually, through endless, tantra-like repetition, have cloyed in the conscious mind while simultaneously installing themselves beneath the level of immediate emotion and awareness. This is the place where basic instincts, automatic assumptions, and ontological verities reside. When the time is right, and certain rulers have made it abundantly clear, the time is drawing ever nearer. Decades of propaganda will serve the same function for them that centuries of Christian anti-Semitism in Europe performed for the Nazis. Today, a similar ignorance, but in a differenct cloak, pervades.

To compare the Australian and the Israeli settlement process as similar is laughable.

Anansi,

I agree with you that the situation is sad.

I do not agree, however, that salvation will come by history:

Until recently, the main beneficiaries of history (other than those paid to write and to teach it) were the book-worms. With the advent of internet, however, even they don't get much feed.

Perhaps I exaggerated, but when the lives of your loved-ones are in danger, you don't go about opening books to try and prove that they are right.

I don't know about Japanese youngsters, but let me inform you: typical young Israelis hate history, in any shape and form (including the compulsory bible-study, which is considered history there). Once they finish their exams they don't want to hear about it again. They prefer to indulge in science/technology where they can get practical things done (and earn more as well). In general, Israelis tend to live in the future while Palestinians tend to live in the past - guess who's getting better results...

"You do not want a finger of your family harmed, neither does a Palestinian I imagine. "

I guess so, but then they don't act rationally. All they need is to stop launching rockets, then they will not be harmed. And yes, by such actions they also support the radical elements within Israel.

It is terror, not criticism, that strengthens the Israeli "Right". in-fact, constructive criticism can help, especially if you can provide reasonable alternatives, rather than hate-statements.

"Israel will continue to exist"...

Great that you can have that certainty. The feeling in Israel itself is 50%-50%.

"I personally do not see this conflict as one between a good-guy and a bad-guy"

I agree if you refer to the superficial conflict, supposedly between Israelis and Palestinians. However, the real conflict is between the good "normal" people and the bad "crazy" radicals on both sides.

"Perhaps the rest of the world should step in tell both sides to shut up"

By all means. Please step in and tell the bad radicals on both sides to shut up!