Yuyutsu – I will take your word that non Jews can own land in Israel seeing that I did a quick search of the net and found no info to back up what I said. Point conceded!

If driving hundreds of thousands of civilians from there homes and threatening them with death or imprisonment if they ever try to return is not considered terrorism what is it called?

The Jews complain about being forced out of their homes and having their livlyhoods destroyed by the Nazi but then they say its ok to do it to the Palestinians. Jews are at the top of the list when it comes to the worlds greatest hypocrites.

Non Jews are as welcome to move to Israel as people who don’t marry Jews are welcome to convert to Judaism. In other words you are not welcome to move to Israel, the Jewish people don’t want you there and they will do almost anything to stop you but if you are pig headed enough you might just get in.

Yuyutsu would you volunteer to join an army which is occupying Australia? The Israeli are not stupid forcing the Palestinians to join their army is like forcing Aussie to join the Japanese army in 1943! I doubt if any Palestinians would join the Israeli army and if they did they would probably be shunned by their entire community. So the Israeli knowing that the Palestinians wont join the army use this as a way of discriminating against them and they have obviously fooled you into thinking that they have given the Palestinians a real option

Its intrinsic to Israel existence that they have conscription with out it they would have been wiped out a long time ago. So whether you think conscription is good or bad is irrelevant seeing that it’s a must in a country that does all it can to irritate its neighbors.

these people are the most selfish and arrogant culture the world has ever seen! The Jews would have gone the same way as the Saxons, Celts, Anglo’s and the rest of them if it where not for their culture of having contempt for all other people and having racism as a celebrated and intrinsic part of Jewish culture.

I do agree that Hamas is bad but we have to look at things from the Palestine’s prospective and Hamas is the only one offering a solution! Hamas solution is a stone age one but thanks to Israel the Palestinians are a stone age people with almost nothing in the way of education or help (Israel has made sure of this) so with that said we can all understand why Hamas gets the support it does because the Palestinians don’t know any better. So all we see are bearded loons yelling and calling for the death of all Jews simply because pain and suffering is all they have ever know at the hands of Israel. I am sure if bunch of Jews drove your family from their home, moved in and then called you a terrorist and dropped bombs on you if you try to question the Jews legitimacy in taking your home you would be very angry as well.

I bet every time a bearded Muslim is on TV calling for the death of all Jewsand the like the Israeli’s rub their hands with glee knowing that people like Yuyutsy will see it and believe that all Palestinians are blood thirsty monsters and deserve all they get! You could not be further from the truth

yuyutsu,so you thnk that zionism existed only in the first half of the 20th century? That's the trouble with airheads like you joining in discussions without any reliable information.THE LIKUD pARTY AND THE MINOR RELIGIOUS PARTIES ARE SELF-CONFESSED ZIONISTS IF YOU CAN BELIEVE THEIR OWN PUBLICATIONS ON THE SUBJECT.
About 40% of Israelis belong to the socialist parties and the Peace Now movement.Likud holds power in the Knesset ONLY BECAUSE they have the support of the religious right,zionists like themselves.Why not get hold of a book called " Israel & Palestine: Why they fight and can they stop?" It is written by the much respected Israeli historian Bernard Wasserstein. He'd know more about the zionists than you ever will.I base my observations on the writings of honest and objective intellectuals like them and from whom I draw my data whereas you depend upon your own pathetic and deluded misreading of the current history of Israel.

The fun will start bin earnest in the years ahead when the population od Israeli Arabs exceeds that of the Jews.They will then have to be disenfranchised and dispossessed of land and rights for the Israelis to have a "purfied" state of Israel. Yes.We would call it ETHNIC CLEANSING! The UN will have to take a serious stand then against Israel.That is what I meant by the saying:"Demography is destiny" and that is what I meant by Palestinians eventually winning the "Battle" "even if they lose the many skirmishes along the way.Israelis reached ZPG somewhere about 1999 or thereabouts:the Palestinian population grows at the rate of 4.5% You do the maths,pal.

Get some serious reading done before taking me on,yuyutsu.

socratease

EasyTimes,

Please check my definition above of a "terrorist". The intention matters, and Israel's intention was not to sew terror, but to survive.

Though I could, I have not enough words here, time or interest to discuss further Israel's distant past. What concerns me is today, not 60+ years ago.

I want the Israeli people to live, to survive, to keep their homes, culture and social fabric. I support whatever means they need for this purpose, including the recent-war, but I do not support any other purposes (e.g. Jewishness or zionism per-se).

I personally also don't like certain traits of Jewish-behaviour, which I like changed, but I claim (from reliable personal sources, which I will not disclose, Socratease) that those traits are already changing, declining, that Jewishness and zionism, despite formally still keeping their name, have been significantly diluted during Israel's decades of independence. I further claim, that the more Israel is oppressed, the slower these traits change, but when Israel has access to periods of relative calm, those traits change faster.

If Likud rises in the coming Israeli elections, it will be a direct result of the recent rockets-attacks. Obama's elections boosted Kadima and Labor, but as jounralists predicted at the time, "each kassam rocket would reduce this advantage in favour of Likud". Sadly, there were many rockets and their predictions seem true. Sadly also, Hamas and the Israeli "Right" share common interests.

No, I would never volunteer to ANY army. However, non-Jews have the option of doing civil-service instead, which gives them the same privileges. This would have been my own choice, but many Palestinians senselessly reject this as well. Other Palestinians do serve in either the army or in civil-service, then take their rightful place in Israeli society.

Conscription is evil. It amounts to slavery and I do not support it under any circumstances.

Socratease, the mistake in your gloomy predictions is to assume that ALL Israeli-Palestinians oppose Israel. A small-percentage does, but see how few votes the Israeli-Arab parties got! Loyal citizens do not pose a threat to Israel, only those who want to destroy it.

Before this discussion gets bogged down in tribalism we all need to get some serious reading done. I have supplied you all with a selection of URLSs taken from Historian Bernard Wasserstein. Yes,he is a Jew and a very much respected intellectual in the world,more than any of us could ever hope to be.And no, I havent tried including any Arab or Palestinian based URL because some of you would claim bias. Wasserstein is biased but the bias stems from his commitment to historical truths and objectivity.So look below and see if you can find any of these books in libraries. Then come to the discussion table and make it all worthwhile.

(1)
Oz Almog, The Sabra:The Creation of the New Jew(Berkeley 2000)
(2)Neil Caplan, Palestine Jewry and the Arab Question 1917-1925
(3)Baruch Kimmerling, The Invention and Decline of Israeliness
(4)David Kretzmer,The Occupation of Justice:The Supreme Court Of Israel and The Occupied Territories
(5)Walter Lowdermilk,Palestine:The Land of Promise
(6)Benny Morris,Righteous Victims:A History of Zionist-Arab Conflict.
(7)Demographic Hegemony,Nana Poku and David Graham
(8) Itmar Rabinovich,The Road Not Taken:Early Arab-Israeli Negotiations
(9)Anita Shapira,Land and Power:Zionists Resort To Force.(1992)
(10)Ehud Sprinzack,Brother Against Brother.

There are many other books I could recommend but if you can read even one or two of the above you will have a clearer idea of what is and has been really going on.

socratease

"Before this discussion gets bogged down in tribalism..."

But isn't tribalism the name of the game?

When someone tries to kill off your tribe, unconditionally, you don't go and look in the books to find what your and their grand-grand-fathers and mothers did, or even whether they were right or wrong: you just fight back, you defend yourself and your tribe, using whatever weapons you can lay your hands on. Once safe, then you can talk, but talk about what? about whether they grant you the privilege to be shot instead of hanged or eaten alive?

Socratease, you keep pushing through the back-door the concept of "Jew", trying to impress me that this-or-that author is "Jewish": why do you think should I care?

I re-iterate:

The people of Israel started off as Jews and zionists.
That generation is all but gone now.
The current population of Israel consists mainly of normal people like you and me. They really have no horns.

In Israel, the terms "Jew" and "zionist" are still mentioned from time-to-time out of habit, but they lost, and continue to lose, much of their original meaning. Except for the fanatic settlers and their supporters, who cling to the old racist ways, the closest practical definitions of those terms, as used in everyday life in Israel are:

Jew: someone whom we can trust to be friendly with our tribe, one who has no inclination to attack us, such as blowing him/her-self up in a bus/school/restaurant or shoot us, etc.

Zionist: someone who cares for his tribe, that contributes to society, that has good civil values and morals, that helps his neighbours, etc.

You see, ethnicity/religion doesn't come in at all. It is all about safety, security, about people who built their home defending against a mob from another tribe that want to throw them out to the sea.

I presume you will mention the Likud, but most of its voters do so only because they are afraid and want more security, they perceive Likud will reduce the rockets/bombs. I am not convinced, but that's sadly how they perceive it.