CONT'

There was a ceasefire in place, yet the Palestinians repeatedly violated it. Do I think it’s possible that Israel messed them around a bit? Absolutely, but the Palestinians could have avoided all this by just NOT rocketing Israel. With no rockets flying into Israel, international pressure would have built and forced Israel to drop the blockade.

Please answer me another simple question. Why do you think Hamas rockets Israel?

You say >> “"The principle of distinction, one of the fundamental principles of international humanitarian law, states that all parties engaged in combat must distinguish between civilian objects and military targets, and are forbidden to intentionally attack civilians and civilian objects."

I really don’t believe you are seriously suggesting Israel targets civilians. Are you? Israel goes to great lengths to limit the fallout on civilians from their attacks on Hamas. Palestinian civillians were telephoned by the IDF to notify them that they should leave their houses as their area was being targeted for attack. Israeli planes air dropped letters to the same effect in other places.

Just imagine on D Day, 6th June 1944, if the British and Americans were held responsible for civilian deaths in the sea-side towns of Normandy. We would all be speaking German or Russian, no doubt.

Israel has a right to protect itself. There is NO WAY of doing this without causing civilian casualties, even taking all the care in the world. Hamas hide their weapons and commanders in built up areas for this very reason.

You say >> “Israel clearly has the upper hand and bears proportionate responsibility."

There is no such thing as one-sided peace. You can’t declare peace unilaterally, you need a partner. Since Israel does not have this partner I therefore cannot see how Israel bears responsibility. Proportionate or otherwise.

I don’t understand what you mean by the statement >> “Also responsible are the players behind the scenes, insofar as the conflict is war by proxy.”

Who is really fighting this war, if Israel and Palestine are just proxies

Hi y'all,

What is Israel's Gaza goal?

Keep control of the former mandate of Palestine (and Golan) for 100%, and continue to create facts on the ground for if they are ever forced to negotiate.
(In the mean time make friends with the coming empire of China, rather than the one that may not last much longer, the USA.)

In that regard Zionists and Hamas want the same thing, a one state ... not a two states solution. It is just that the cameras/ spotlight won't go away so we can sort this out once and for all, but there are plenty of excuses to continue the cycle of violence ...

Over the last 60 years it would seem Zionist strategy and tactics have resulted in the world commonly referring to the area as Israel and the Occupied - or Disputed if you will - Territories.

Apparently, if the full Gaza Strip and West Bank - not sure about Jerusalem - were under Arab control it would equate to 22% of the land. Why give away 22% when you can whack them? Might is right?

Of course Arabs siding with the Nazis, Baathists, Soviets - as in the enemy of my enemy is my friend - has not proven to be very ...

Happy New Year

Paul L,

I have not read the Hamas Charter, and am no more interested in reading it than I am in searching the internet for the Koenig Memorandum and reading it line by line (see my post, above, of Thursday arvo, 1-1-09).

Does the Hamas charter reflects the will of all Gazans? Can you tell me whether this is the document outlining the domains and limits of Gazan governmental processes? Your excerpts suggest to me that it is a political tract, not a document of governance. It bears about the same relationship to governance as any other party platform or manifesto.

But I am not being dismissive. If the people of Gaza are behind this charter in majority numbers and are willing to lay down their lives for it, then plainly the current Israeli government has cause for concern.

Last night on TV, I saw ordnance used in abundance against the Gazans: ordnance that, in a dense, urban setting, can only be indiscriminate in effect. Is this scale of attack justified by a political tract, by a party platform? Whose tract? Whose platform? Whose policy?

Is this scale of attack justified by the unstoppable launching of wildly inaccurate missiles by unknown parties? How do I distinguish this attack from the destruction of Lidice, or Guernica?

The unfortunate truth is that, in the very best of times, it was impossible to entirely stop the launching of missiles from Gaza. Why? Because the factions involved were not under Palestinian Authority or "Gazan Authority" control, any more than the "Real IRA" is under the control of the IRA. Yes, there are connections. No, there is no chain of command or reliable control.

To me, the Israeli government has always been like the princess complaining about the pea under the mattress, in demanding an unachievably low level of hostilities. Should I suspect the involvement of Israeli or other agents provocateurs or clandestine groups, maintaining a barrier to productive diplomacy and thus assuring that unmeetable expectations about rocket attacks from Gaza remain unmet?

I will continue to give both governments the benefit of the doubt.

Sir Vivor,

You say >> “I have not read the Hamas Charter, and am no more interested in ... the Koenig Memorandum … Can you tell me whether this is the document outlining the domains and limits of Gazan governmental processes?

Frankly this is a cop out. The Koening memorandum was issued in 1976, 3 years after Israel was nearly annihilated by the combined might of the Arab armies. It does not represent recent Israeli thinking.

Hamas has only been around since the late 80’s. And the Charter dates to 1988. It is entirely irrelevant whether the Charter represents the will of the Palestinian people, because Hamas holds power. What is important for Israel (and the rest of the world) to consider is, “what are Hamas’s intentions”? How are the “domains and limits” of Gazan governmental process relevant to that discussion ?

The Hamas charter tells everyone what their intentions are. I don’t suggest that they can’t change their intentions, I am suggesting that they have not done so and likely will not do so.

You say >> “Your excerpts suggest to me that it is a political tract, not a document of governance. It bears about the same relationship to governance as any other party platform or manifesto “

Yes it is a political tract, Hamas is a political party and war is an extension of politics. But even more importantly, Hamas are a religious party. And statements of intent from religious groups are not to be taken lightly. In any case, don’t you think if the world had paid a little more attention to the author of Mein Kampf, and believed him, we might have been well served?

I’m not suggesting Hamas can recreate the holocaust. What I am suggesting is that they mean what they say and their actions reinforce this.

Here are some recent quotes from Hamas leaders.

>> "Israel is not a legitimate entity, and no amount of pressure can force us to recognize its right to exist."
-Dr. Mahmud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, Washington Times, February 4, 2006

TBC

CONT'

>> "Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die, they will experience humiliation and degradation every day."
-Dr. Mahmud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, Washington Times, February 4, 2006

>> "Neither the liberation of the Gaza Strip nor the liberation of the West Bank or even Jerusalem will suffice us. Hamas will pursue the armed struggle until the liberation of all our lands. We don't recognize the state of Israel or its right to hold onto one inch of Palestine. Palestine is an Islamic land belonging to all the Muslims."
-Dr. Mahmud al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, The Jerusalem Post, August 18, 2005

>> "Tomorrow, our nation will sit on the throne of the world. This is not a figment of the imagination, but a fact. Tomorrow we will lead the world, Allah willing."
-Khalid al-Mish'al, leader of Hamas, Al-Jazeera TV, February 3, 2006

>> "Today, you are fighting the army of Allah. You are fighting against peoples for whom death for the sake of Allah, and for the sake of honor and glory, is preferable to life....How can you possibly defeat us?"
- Khalid al-Mish'al, leader of Hamas, Al-Jazeera TV, February 3, 2006, from the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI)

I leave the best for last

>> "Hamas has never proposed to change or amend its charter [calling for the destruction of Israel]. The platform presents a realistic view that reflects Hamas's goals for the next four years. ... we place emphasis on the elimination and non-recognition of Israel."
- Salah Al-Bardawil, Hamas candidate for Palestinian Legislative Council IslamOnline -- Islamic extremist website -- January 14, 2006

I offer these quotes merely to point out Hamas’s intentions. We all know Israeli settlers say some stupid things, but these quotes come from the people who hold power in Gaza.

It has become clear that Hamas used the ceasefire to rebuild its stocks of weaponry and husband its resources. How can Israel truly negotiate in good faith, with people who use the ceasefire as a cover to rearm and then renew their attacks?

as i have pointed out in other posts to this topic
israel[mossad] supported fatah being set up when it suited
when fatah rebelled it set up hamas

THE POINT BEING, twice allready israel got support[via a proxey]
had it used the good will that support created..[like that what got hamas elected WAS IT SERVING NEED] and IF ISRAEL stopped prodding the prisoners in the gulag..[for over 40?50 years, peace would have come a long time ago

see how israel/WAR special intrest has set this up to fail
because it chose to be the omnipotant oppressor ,

at anytime israel could have used its power over fatah leadership to bring peace

BUT IT CHOSE NOT TO

the question begs answer as to why?

90 billion of aid from usa?
settlers?
or some deeper and darker reason?

there is now a war purely because israel leadership feels war suits its adgenda, who are your leaders serving?

the arabs leaders are serving outside adgenda's [us, world bank who knows]thus sit back and watch it all unwind

there is one who controls these realms ,call him satan or rothchild or whatever name the power that makes leaderrs oppress their own [and other peoples[from africa, to north korea, from zimbabwe to gaza,

there is some evil power who is glorying in all this MURDER

and murder is what it is

god gives us life [all of us life]
and satans minions seek to take life away

you either serve life giver
or the life taker

you cannot serve two masters

someone is intent to realise hell
right here on earth
who is serving life or death
is revealed by their deeds

no excuse can make a GOOD PERSON DO A BAD THING

EVIL WILL ALLWAYS MAKE MURDER , RAPE, THEFT ,...SOUND REASONABLE

BUT THOSE WHO MURDER [OR CONDONE IT]
ARE REVEALED FOR WHAT THEY ARE