Their aim, dear Neve, who writes this simply to publicise his book, is the same as ever. Revenge.

Israel revenges what Hamas did. Hamas will now revenge what Israel are doing. Same as they've been doing for 2000 years.

Revenge.

“But what exactly, one might ask, is Israel's mission?”

Israel’s mission is to defend itself against the Hamas lunatics and supporters. If Hamas and Palestinians in general feel that they are outgunned by Israel, or that Israel has ‘over-reacted’ to Hamas’s homemade rockets, then Hamas should stop firing rockets.

Hamas, not Israel, is killing Palestinian civilians, and many of these civilians support Hamas.

If wiping out Hamas is a “a totally unrealistic goal”, what realistic goal does Hamas have in firing rockets into Israel? The only realism there is that Israel will retaliate a thousand fold, as it can, and as it is entitled to. Israel has had to defend itself from Arabs since its inception.

The second, supposedly political reason given by this author? Well, would you vote for a government not prepared to protect you from terrorism?

The third reason – absolute rubbish.

The final one – irrelevant.

And, Israel should “talk with its enemies”! How many times have they tried that! How do you talk to lunatics! Who fired the first shot after the “peace” agreement ran out!

Three cheers for Israel. May they always be triumphant as long as they have to withstand the hatred of the Arab world and left-wing Western anti-Semites

Israels goal is to survive.

We have a whole generation today who fail to acknowledge that the UN gave that land to the Israelis.

Its their land under God and all of the madness of the arab world and all the unenlightend talk of this ages' young people isnt going to change anything.

God wins:)
Aint it great.

The Palestinians voted for Hamas in a free and fair democratic election.

WE MUST RESPECT THE DEMOCRATIC CHOICE OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

Hamas, unlike most political parties, has always been honest about its goals. What is more, to the best of their abilities, the leaders of Hamas have always tried their best to deliver on their promises. For Hamas' leadership there is no distinction between "core" and "non-core" promises.

What did Hamas promise?

--Hamas promised to conquer Israel by force.

--Hamas promised to declare war on Jews. Not on Zionists but on Jews.

From the Hamas "covenant."

"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious."

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."

"Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes."

See: http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Hamas has been more open about its genocidal intentions towards Jews than Hitler ever was in Mein Kampf.

In short, the Palestinians voted for a party that promised them war.

That party delivered on its promise. They have war.

I am at a loss to know how the Palestinians, or anyone else, could have expected any other outcome.

Congratulations to S Meyer and Leigh for winning first and second prizes in a kneejerking competition.

First prize would be one week, all expenses paid(except medical) for you and your family at the best hotel in Gaza. Second prize? Two weeks.

Haveyou all forgotten that the state of Israel was created as abreach of the most basic UN charter...the right of self-determination?Or is it that qall of you are totally ignorant of the history of Palestine?

The creation of the state of Israel owes everything to the broken promise to lord Balfour that only by and through direct negotiations with the indigeneous Arab majority could the Zionists get a homeland called IsrAel. AND,also that nothing should be done to dispossess the Palestinian Arabs of their land and properties.

Ofcourse Balfour was only joking because when the Ziuonists began to break ALL undertakings he looked the other way.The British government went further by enabling the immigration of diaspora Jews to accelerate migration despite Arab warnings.

To their utter discredit the bloody UNO pretended that nothing illegal was taking place. The Zionist financiers who controlled commerce and wealth lobbied hard and long to get American support.

What is happening in Gaza is the price is being paid for in blood to claim legitimacy of basic rights guaranteed under the UN charter.

The Israeli Government is the de facto ruler of Arab land + whatever land the Jews held legitimately...which was very little,so little in fact that any state created there is unsustainable.
The Palestinians have the de jure rights of ownership but they will neveer gain that goal so the best thing would be for them to compromise and get the best deal they can, which will still be bugger all,but there is no other p[rospect sadly

socratease

Leigh,
- “Hamas lunatics “ very mature, opponents could justifiably retort with “Zionist lunatics”, it doesn’t get the discussion anywhere!

- “Hamas, not Israel, is killing Palestinian civilians, ...” explain that one for us?

- “Israel has had to defend itself from Arabs since its inception.” And I wonder why? Mmmhh, not too difficult

- How do you talk to lunatics here we go again

- Who fired the first shot after the “peace” agreement ran out! And who sent troops / invaded on 4th November?

- left-wing Western anti-Semites typical of your type, anti-Zionism AIN’T anti-Semitism
Gibo
- We have a whole generation today who fail to acknowledge that the UN gave that land to the Israelis. UN (Britain) ain’t blame-free
- Its their land under God all religious fundamentalists are dangerous, you obviously one
Stevenlmeyer
- I am at a loss to know how the Palestinians, or anyone else, could have expected any other outcome. And I (amongst many) are at a loss to know how the Zionists, or anyone else (USA), could have expected any other outcome ........ after 40 years of occupation, ghettofication and abuse >> Zionists, the new Nazis!
All the best and happy new year, mark conley

Sir IVOR takes the cake for 'stupendous ignorance' :) sorry Ivy..but it's true.

WHY? Simple.. Steven L Meyer... ( a Jew, who has possibly a more acute sensitivity on issues like this than you or I) has pointed out 2 pieces of information which appear to have flown right over your rather uninformed head.

1/ The last hour...Muslims kill the Jews.

2/ Hamas Charter.. but SLM could have quoted a much stronger section where the land of Palestine is claimed 'until the day of resurrection' ever since it was (now..Ivor..pay close attention here) CONQUERED BY FORCE by the Caliph Omar.

Now.. only a bigotted ratbag could see this information... and not draw the appropriate conclusion that

a) 'Israel is legitimate even if established by force' (because the Arab status quo was established in exactly that way)

b) HAMAS has genocidal aspirations regarding Jews and Israel.

I'm sorry but both you Ivor and Socratease fail dismally in the most basic historical comprehension.
Hence..your spurious and emotive assertions.

BUT.. TO THE TOPIC... I think Israels goals in this particular case are more political than anything.

-Election coming up... must look strongggg to the people.

What other possible goals could they have?

"Destroy Hamas completely." (A moral and reasonable thing to do, considering their charter)

Unfortunately, given the connectedness of the world these days and the multiplicity of interests, they are not likely to try that with an election close. You need stability and predictability for that kind of action.

If they were going to achieve that goal, they should target every hamas public rally and leader, every time they put their heads above the trenches.

What a load of twaddle from Socratease.

Israel's right to exist is well established and settled under international law. There is no point going over that barren ground again and again.

The palestinians have had every opportunity to also be established in a separate state, but have always refused, because they dont want Jews, in what they see as their religions piddle patch.

And the reason they dont want jews is because of the well documented and quite rabid anti semiticism written into the Koran by that war mongering thug and serial paedophile named Mohammed, and his followers, back in the 7th century.

Islam is, and always has been, rabidly anti semitic as was made abundantly clear recently by Maharthir Mohammed in his opening address to the OIC in 2004.

The shame is, that modern day palestinian arabs are too dopey to think for themselves and are being manipulated by the religious zealots,and by the evil and bigotry from people like Maharthir.

BTW, didnt the Ottomans lose the whole area as a consequence of the end of WW1,(and thereby ceded to the allies) and wasnt it the case that the Ottomans took it from the Mamluks in the 16th century, who in turn had taken it from the mongols. Isnt it also the case that in all this time it has never been called Palestine until about 1920.

Isnt it the case that the only time it was run as an independant country was when the jews had it.

it isn't very surprising that the left completely ignored the 6300 rockets over the past 3 years aimed at israeli civilians. they didn't care when israeli citizens were living in fear 24/7. but when israel defends itself they finally take interest again.

israel is one of the most powerful military forces in the world. if it wanted to kill civilians - especially in a place as densly populated as gaza - the death toll would be higher than 300.

civilian deaths are hamas' fault. when they fire mortars from people's backyards at israeli civilians, those civilians will inevitably become collateral damage. how can you wonder why civilians die? have you not seen the armies of rock throwing KIDS! soldiers can get maimed or killed by those rocks but those evil genocidal zionists use rubber bullets against these kids trying to kill them. and every now and then a hamas terrorist in the crowd fires at the soldiers, using teenagers to shield him.

how many israelis cheer when palestinian civilians die? how many israelis rally in support of killing palestinians? there are no photos of israeli babies dressed up as martyrs and israeli children arent taught that palestinians are inferior beings. but you will see all of this in the palestinian territories. they indoctrinate children into their death cult society and the terrorists use women and children as shields but they STILL get the support from the international left.

i have pretty much said all on the obama change site
http://www.change.org/ideas/view/stop_supporting_israeli_apartheid

i figure whats the use of posting it here where we are powerless

my posts reveal that hamas was created by the mossad;that israel has presented no proof that hamas is doing the pipebombing[hamas is really only the equivelent of a political party name[like liberal or labour or the greens]parties dont do things people do

later posts reveal fatah also was set up by israel [lol?]

but you cant punish captives crammed into a prison camp and say they are hiding behind children[when settlers drag their children[of a freechoice]into a war zone[and palisteins are like fish in a barrel]

the death rate also stands out[the pipe bombs have killed 17 israelies in 6 years[and israel has killed nearing 400 in 4 days] israel isnt reporting it yet but those orded into sevice[being called up[arnt turning up to repeat the lebinon disaster again]

the timming at election time is also suspitious[plus admissions this attack has been in the planning for 6 mths]also israel stating peace is not an option,...seems a blatent previeuw of what is planned[but this will not be a ground invasion]

the timming is interesting as well,deliberatly planned to be exicuted while most press is asleep[and while still under gw busche's watch, noting obama's change we can believe in,will be unchanged from the busche/cheeney neo con zionist lobby stance

but i said it on obama's change forum allready[he cant claim not to know]it even mentions rothchilds role in the farce of a homeland[for the 4th reiche]

for the same zionist capoes that chose;,who went to the chambers[the same type explused from the holy lands when the zionist'bolchovics took it from palistei[relates to the phylisteens [david and goliath's feud]

[a feud that goes back 2500 years[i also note that the natzies better prepare for a surge[sneak attack at anytime ;when they get their hundred fold vengence upon the natzies for ww2

[the hundred fold vengence is egsactly what the futile death toll reveals,every israelie is'worth'100 goys[non jew]the clay'man'who takes orders from the rothchild/zionist teutonics holyblood line.

oh dear i hear a liberal saying rubber bullits
thats the joke [they are real bullits with a rubber coating] once they bounce off something the rubber falls off[but hey kids throwing stones mean hamas right?

but i see the liberal? is deluded
quote>>israel is one of the most powerful military forces in the world.>> #

yet they couldnt invade a lowly lebinon
can only fight with suprise attacks
[can attack usa navey with impunity]

thinks it can run usa politics[and banking and the media [and medicine , movies ,contests on tv[sitcoms,in fact run everything from law to gmo[but the one thing they havnt got is the most powerfull military hah ha

usa russia china got more planes boats etc
israel only got 400 aged nukes
it has so few tanks its laughable

its armed forces come from a possable pool of 4 milion[of whichj about half are children or the old age retired that out number the children

israel cant do nothing because big brother does it all
supply the bombs, to supply your war needs

if america said to israel your on your own they would have to make peace[but hey usa gives 55 percent of its foreign aid to israel]but the teat is running dry[soon israel will only take us grants in euro's

look liberal its fine to be proud but delusion bro[is it worth bringing on armogeddon?..for a lie?

the messiah been and gone[satan offered him this realm]the messiah refused it[we know your messiah is the prince of peace not the messiah of war[hes not comming back while you turn gods holy land into dust]

think on this [god gives ALL LIFE OUR LIFE]
we serve the life giver
or the life taker

[israel means fights with god[get it?]
all the promises'god'gave you were from satan
gods still on sabbath
by their deeds will we know them

noting the ggghhh-hamas
how goes ggghhh-hanika
noting lately the spokesman been forgetting to ggghhh before the word hamas,the inconsistancy is really obvious

Polycarp tries for third place in the kneejerk competition. Sorry but I'm out of wooden spoons. How about you spend some time reading instead of writing?
Try
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051547.html

"Rivalry among Israel's leaders at root of row on Gaza cease-fire
By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff , Haaretz Correspondents

"Four days after the launch of "Operation Cast Lead" in the Gaza Strip, the first signs of a rift among the Israeli leadership over the campaign's management began to emerge. Even though the IDF operation has thus far been considered a relative success (and the ministers who approved it have benefited from an improvement in their political standing as a result), a dispute has erupted among the country's senior political echelon over the question of when to begin the process of winding down the operation."

and so on. Seems that Neve Gordon may have a point - - -

Hello there Ivory....(tower?)

Now.. that ignorance is still stubbornly clinging to your left shoe.. rather like an old piece of discarded bubble gum from the pavement.

Neve Gordon does indeed have 'a point' when he mentions political considerations.... OH....SHOCK...HORROR.. "Israel is a political entity just like us" man oh man...I did not see that coming. (except that I also mentioned it)

I note your immediate recourse to the Green Left Weekly/Haeretz..but the point made in the article was:

<<The defense minister told Olmert and Livni on Tuesday night that Israel needs to consider a 48-hour cease-fire during which Hamas' willingness to cease its launching of rockets will be tested.>>

COMMENT: "How stuuuuupid is THAT?".. it's 'THIS' stupid.

a) HAMAS ended the cease fire.
b) HAMAS then ramped up/continued to hurl deadly rockets at Israel.

So... why test something that is already self evident? i.e..that Hamas has been, is, and will continue to launch rockets against Israel.

CONCLUSION.. "wipe out hamas" is the only viable/reasonable solution.

IGNORANCE is ONGOING: Until you, from your Ivory Tower, begin to address the root causes of the problems...which are theological, as shown in the many references to the Quran and Hadith in HAMAS political rhetoric, (underlined by Steven) you will just continue to dribble out convenient but innaccurate leftist rubbish which simply confirms our opinion of your group... "you know nothing".. long on 'profile raising rhetoric" short on Real anaysis and understanding.

CHALLENGE. Are the points raised by Steven wrong? If so...how? Leave out empty 'wooden spoon' responses.. just stick with facts.

Discussions for and against Israeli actions in Gaza are a legitimate and valuable part of the political process. Disseminating myths about Israel and the Palestinians is not.

The States of Israel and Palestine were drawn on the map of the Middle East by a UN General Assembly decision in 1947. It was a remarkable decision in that it was not opposed by the Soviet Union.

The Jewish leadership in the land of Israel took up the offer and declared a state within the UN-defined borders in 1948.

The Palestinian state offered by the UN was rejected by the Arab League member nations, who claimed to be acting on behalf of the Palestinians. There was no Palestinian leadership at that time as there was little or no concept of a Palestinian people among many Arabs in the region.

The Arab League also loudly and publicly wholly rejected the State of Israel.

The major part of the area designated for a Palestinian state by the UN was occupied by Jordan from 1948 until 1967.

A Palestinian leadership did not emerge until the mid-1960's. It's leader was Yasser Arafat.

There was no breach of the UN Charter in the allocation of land to a Jewish state.

The Aviator

Neve Gordon tries to create a mystery where none exists.

Israel's "Gaza goal" is a PERMANENT cessation of rocket and mortar attacks.

Would Israel like to see the Hamas regime toppled?

Of course. Nobody likes living next door to a regime that has declared its intent to commit genocide against you.

Has the Israeli Government made contingency plans for toppling the Hamas regime?

Given Hamas' openly declared genocidal intentions they would be remiss had they not developed such plans.

But toppling Hamas plainly is not the goal of THIS operation. If it was Israeli troops would already be in Gaza.

As the Israeli Government has made plain, the goal is "no more rocket or mortar attacks."

The EQUATION is simple:

No rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza into Israel

= No Israeli attacks on Hamas in Gaza

= No more Palestinian casualties.

It REALLY is as simple as that.

All the rest is flim flam

"One under god"

Even your dopey pseudonym reveals what a religious screw ball you are, but that "change" web site you provided only just confirms it.

What a load of dribbling nonsense- talk about making silk purses and drawing long bows

Its on a par with this sort of crap, published in the WSJ

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123051100709638419.html

The auguries for 2009 are already not looking too flash.

One under God,

After deciphering your recent post its is clear you are an anti-semite and not a very bright one. The charge that “Jews run politics[and banking and the media [and medicine , movies ... ” is strikingly similar to Hitlers claims in Mein Kampf.

You say >> “usa russia china got more planes boats etc
israel only got 400 aged nukes
it has so few tanks its laughable “

Who’s laughing besides morons? The Israelis beat all comers three times in the 20th century, including the “MIGHT” of 5 Arab armies. Israels' military is one of the most highly trained and effective in the world. And if they could ignore civilian casualties like their opponents, they would have wiped the floor with Hezbollah-Lebanon (even though Iran pumps in massive amounts of military aid).

Israel actually has 3800 MBT’s, that’s main battle tanks. It has 1100 self propelled artillery pieces and an airforce of nearly 700 fixed wing and 300 rotary wing aircraft.

You say >> “noting the ggghhh-hamas
how goes ggghhh-hanika “

What?? ??

You say >> “israel cant do nothing because big brother does it all
supply the bombs ... “

Very eloquent. I suppose those Merkava Tanks are from the US and their APC’S? How about the UZI. The list of Israeli manufactured military equipment is as long as your arm. For a very small nation it is highly self-reliant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_equipment_of_Israel#Local_military_development

Everyone else,

Clearly there can be no long term solution until the two parties are prepared to negotiate. Hamas are clearly not ready to negotiate so Israel is bereft of real, workable long term solutions.

That leaves Israel to deal with a seemingly never-ending war. In that situation all Israel can do is try and limit the harm to its citizens through rocket attacks and suicide bombings. Civillian casualties are tragic but I cannot see how Israel can defend itself without this collateral damage when Hamas insist on using their own civilians as a shield for their activities.

In all seriousness, does anyone really believe Hamas is interested in ANY kind of peace with Israel?

The path of Middle East history is littered with the peace accords and agreements brokered by third parties, agreed to by Israel and broken by the Palestinians.

Arafat, the Palestinian leader, popularly known as

“the man who never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity “

was a malignant force of evil from the beginning.

All through his terror campaigns, jet plane hijackings, murders and Olympic atrocities as well as the events which lead the Jordanians to expel him and his followers from Jordan and the Egyptians to maintain a strict border between them and Gaza the Israelis negotiated.

It is only the internal political weaknesses of Lebanon which allows the Palestinian scum in the refugee camps to continue to fire rockets on Israel.

Now I see little from the pro-Palestinian whining left about Hamas rockets which landed on a school in Israel today.

“If the Israeli government really cared about its citizens and the country's long term ability to sustain itself in the Middle East, it would abandon the use of violence and talk with its enemies.”

Israel has consistently been willing to engage in a dialogue toward peace.

The Palestinians have been prepared to talk-the-talk but have never, ever attempted to walk-the-walk, quite the opposite,

It takes both of the opposing sides to agree to a peace.

Palestine has the death of its own people as well as Jews on its hands.

Those Palestinians who saw the light of reason left to settle elsewhere in the world years ago.

What is left of the Palestinians is the hard-core hopeless, one murderous faction versus another murderous faction killing each other to control the distribution of external aid..

I am at the point where I do believe the only solution will be found in the extinguishment of the Palestinians as an identifiable social/political entity.

The lives of 400,000 Israelis are threatened on a daily basis that are in the proximate range of Quassam rockets; the FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT, a cardinal principle of human rights, of the same number of Israelis is abrogated by their enforcement to live in and out of shelters on a daily basis. And yet Neve Gordon imaginatively argues and has the audacity to claim that Israel has solely launched this attack for the purpose of “electoral politics and restoring its military reputation.” This is monumental stupidity on his part.

http://www.xanga.com/kotzabasis

GO Israel!

Interesting, the lumping together of Haaretz and the Green Left Weekly.

I would put Haaretz (a bit like that arguably leftwing liberal rag, the Washington Post?) together with the defunct and indisputably leftwing Israeli paper, Al HaMishmar, were they fundamentally similar. Substitution of Al Hashimar for GLW seems reasonable to me. Neither are current Israeli publications.

Those who appeal to history in their appreciation of Israel's existence as a nation may be interested in demographic history - eg:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

"Israeli demographic policy
“As Israel's continued existence as a "Jewish State" relies upon maintenance of a Jewish demographic majority, Israeli demographers, politicians and bureaucrats have treated Jewish population growth promotion as a central question in their research and policymaking. Non-Jewish population growth and immigration is regarded as a threat to the Jewish demographic majority and to Israel's security, as detailed in the Koenig Memorandum."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenig_Memorandum

(snip)

"During the 1970s about 163,000 people immigrated to Israel from the USSR. Later Ariel Sharon, in his capacity as Minister of Housing & Construction and member of the Ministerial Committee for Immigration & Absorption, launched an unprecedented large-scale construction effort to accommodate the new Russian population in Israel so as to facilitate their smooth integration and encourage further Jewish immigration as an ongoing means of increasing the Jewish population of Israel.[21]"

&c

Between 1990 & 2000, about 816,000 migrants arrived from former USSR states. That's about 12% of the current Israeli population of 7.1 million.
(http://www.cbs.gov.il/shnaton53/shnatone53.htm)

The CIA Factbook describes the land area of Israel as "about the size of New Jersey". About 15% of the land is arable.

I don’t doubt Israel's right to exist, but their present trends and current relations with Hamas cause me to doubt their sustainability. With alarming systemic flaws in their policies, and a zoofull of messianic nutcakes cheering on the sidelines, I am not optimistic.

Meanwhile, Israel's pollies focus myopically on their upcoming election, and begin to look more and more to me like dentists doing extractions with chainsaws.

Aren't many of you missing the point?
The article isn't about who is right or who is wrong and who the villains are. That is obvious!...it takes TWO to conduct a war.
The question is as posed "what is Israel’s Agenda"
The right and wrongs of this conflict are hardly neither new nor unique.
I seem to remember a number of 1&4 hundred year wars in and around Europe in history.
As one insightful poster noted this ‘conflict' was propagated by outside forces.( UK, USA, France, the Arab league and other assorted self interested bodies.) True there was no "nation" of Palestinians...but then again neither did the surrounding "nations" as such. Nationalism as we understand it is a relatively new concept barely 200+ years old e.g. Germany. The only commonalities are the forces that control them. "Countries" have always existed with multiple cultures religions and languages under a superimposed national identity(History has shown this is an uncomfortable and temporary situation at best.)
What is conveniently missed by power sources with these superficial aggregations it the individuals.
The bald facts are the Domicile Arabs many with legitimate British, French titles were dispossessed by an act of self interested/serving "nations". Meanwhile the peasant whose only interest is to survive and raise their families is forced into a war for others in the mistaken belief tomorrow will be a better day for a 'normal' life.
In this perspective all the to-ing and fro-ing by religious, political individuals proffering political ideologies only serve to obfuscate, add angst and internecine Machiavellian intrigue to the already volatile topic while the individual (much like you and I) suffers as pawns in someone else’s power game.
The question is what are the plitical goals of the indivduals involved? To me if mass ordinary people are suffering it is wrong! Who cares who or why it started it's about the suffereing (on both sides)that keeps it going, stupid.

Dear Ivor

I appreciated that last post.. particularly the last couple of humorous paragraphs :)

Glad you accept Israels right to exist. Of course.. in any group of humanity, they also share the best and the worst characteristics and behavior. Just because they are 'Israelis' does not immunize their soldiers from atrocity in moments of heat.

My real solution of course is for ALL of them.. Arab and Jew/Israeli to embrace Christ as Messiah. But this is not something I can orchestrate, so I woffle on about how humans normally approach such conflicts and refer also to appropriate historical and theological angles.

Having an acheivable goal for Gaza is a big challenge for sure.

1/ Wipe out Hamas...... very difficult, house to house... many losses and at the end.. all you get is an emerging 'Mini-me' Hamas generation growing up and being fed by all the propoganda of the last Israeli attack.

2/ Stop the Rockets. Refer to '1' above.. as long as their are Palestinians in Gaza... and Islam is their religion.. rockets will be launched.

3/ Ethnically cleanse Gaza. Probably the most unpalatable but also most workable solution to the rocket problem.

Ancient Israel had ongoing problems/conflict with the proto-palestinians.. the Phillistines. Nothing new there.

Lots of opinions here but no comment on the significance of the ongoing Gaza sanctions as the reason for the resumption of rocket attacks, as specifically mentioned by the author.

It's almost as if the attacks resumed for no reason beyond ethnic hatred but there are usually other factors behind most things happening in the Middle East.

Here's an article from almost 12 months ago on the possible intention behind those sanctions and it looks uncannily prophetic.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/917385.html

semite meaning;a]A member of a group of'Semitic-speaking'peoples of the Near/East and northern/Africa,including the Arabs,Arameans,Babylonians,Carthaginians,Ethiopians,Hebrews,and Phoenicians...b]Bible.A descendant of Shem.

im not anti-semite'but'those who'murder'semites are

Leigh>>Israel’s mission...against the Hamas lunatics,..The only realism there is that Israel will retaliate a thousand fold,..How do you talk to lunatics!...Who fired the first shot after the“peace”agreement ran out>>

The corporate media in the U.S.has bent over backwards to portray Hamas as the villain in the latest round of'mass-murder'and carnage.In fact,Hamas has attempted to implement a ceasefire with Israel on numerous occasions.

“Israel rejected a cease-fire offer from the Palestinian group Hamas as a humanitarian aid crisis erupting in the Gaza Strip threatened wider instability,”the Christian Science Monitor http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0425/p99s01-duts.html reported in April.“

[The]Palestinian group offered to cease cross-border rocket attacks if Israel opens crossing points into Gaza and ends military incursions into the Palestinian territory,”Al Jazeera reported.

In fact,Israel is notorious for violating ceasefires.For instance, on June 19,2008,Hamas and the Palestine Information Center accused the Israelis of violating an agreed upon ceasefire three times on the first day of its implementation.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7462554.stm

“The Center reported that Israeli navy boats fired four shells at fishermen in the northern part of the Gaza Strip,while soldiers opened fire at farmers east of Khan Younis,in the southern part of the Gaza Strip,”the media center

“Also,eyewitnesses reported that soldiers fired at farmers in Khuza’a town,near Khan Younis,and fired at a number of houses in AL Qarara town,east of the city.”

Israel fully exploited'a'Hamas declaration on December 19 to not renew the above ceasefire“because the Zionist enemy has failed to respect the conditions,” according to Joshua Lapide, http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=14046 reporting for Asia News.

“The Israeli government blames Hamas for not stopping attacks often carried out by smaller Palestinian factions,while the Islamists claim Israel also broke the truce by failing to lift its blockade of the impoverished territory.

Israel responded to a surge of violence in early November by tightening sanctions and closing crossing points with Gaza,halting deliveries of humanitarian aid and other supplies,basically transforming the Strip into one huge gulag.”

http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/18803

http://www.prisonplanet.com/mumbai-attacks-blamed-on-al-qaeda-as-pretext-for-us-military-response.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/bolton-gaza-conflict-could-lead-to-us-attack-on-iran.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/may-we-no-longer-be-silent.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/don%e2%80%99t-fall-for-israeli-propaganda.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/slaughter-in-gaza-another-chapter-in-the-global-elite-master-plan.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-us-army-document-that-proves-the-us-is-the-worlds-number-one-sponsor-of-world-terrorism.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/how-come-israelis-can-criticize-israel-but-americans-cant.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/americans-want-balanced-treatment-of-israel-and-palestine.html

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90854/6558704.html

Until the international community places
a higher value on the humanity of the
Palestinians, than on Israel's vision of
its historic destiny, until the US withdraws
its support, peace in that area will not
come about.

IMO Hamas have bitten off more than they can chew here as well as clearly being in the wrong. You can't have a charter that calls for the destruction of your neighbour when you have stones and rockets to fight against M16s & other state of the art technology. On top of that, it's Hamas who initiated the end of a ceasefire. I don't think Sun Tsu would say all this was very smart militarily.

Of course the tactic all relied on outside help and winning the moral high ground in the eyes of the international community. And they got a rude surprise when it wasn't forthcoming. Without goodwill even from the Arab league, and half the Palestinian people, Hamas is looking more and more like a dinosoar. A protest of 17 000 against Israel in Cairo? That would be an embarrassment at any AFL game. I am currently touring in Arab parts of the world and was expecting the worst, but at this time of year, Arabs appear not to be taking time out of their holiday schedule to bat an eyelid at recent events.

To me, there are many things that paint Hamas for what they really are, but a stand-out was when Egypt was trying to get the wounded in from Gaza for treatment and Hamas deliberately blocked this.

Polycarp,
I note that you are hoping that Jews and Muslims will "embrace Christ as Messiah". You then go on to suggest a final solution:

"3/ Ethnically cleanse Gaza. Probably the most unpalatable but also most workable solution to the rocket problem."

Reinhard Heydrich would be impressed. But compare the rocket problem in Israel with the traffic fatality problem in Israel:

"[last year]... the [Israeli] National Road Safety Authority [brought] about a drop in road accident fatalities, from a record number of 518 people in 2004, through 476 people in 2005, 448 people in 2006 and 431 people in 2007."
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3594014,00.html

Now, plainly there is a difference in intent. There is usually nothing overtly political and/or murderous about driving to the shop or the next town and suddenly detouring toward eternity. Still, the comparison has been drawn before, earlier, in slightly different terms:

" ...the personal risk of road death is nearly twice as high in the United States as in Israel. And the risk of road death in the United States is nearly eight times higher than the risk of death from terrorism in Israel! Since we Americans readily accept the 145 per million risk of road death without worry, why has the US State Department warned us not to travel to Israel?"
The Jerusalem Post - January 8, 2002
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/safety-in-israel.htm

Polycarp, I think you are up for third prize in my kneejerk competition. How many weeks will that be in Gaza? Amidst the noise and furore, you may decide whether strafings and missile attacks might be useful in reducing Palestinian traffic fatalities, in less troubled times.

I submit that it is easier for people of any faith to accept and trust Christians who behave like Good Samaritans, and seek the Golden Rule as a guideline when solving interpersonal and other social problems. So much else of Christianity is trappings and dogma. It's worth remembering that Heydrich received a lavish Christian funeral. Afterward, the village of Lidice, Czechoslovakia was burnt to the ground, with extreme prejudice.

One (small) criticism of Polycarp's(and many others) stance ie wipe out Hamas.
Show me where in history violent suppression and the imposition of deprivation has worked against an ideal?
Christianity,Hinduism,Judaism?
Cuba perhaps, Starlingrad,London during the Blitz? Berlin during the airlift,Where?
Old expression "time heals all wounds as it wounds all Heels(us term)!

Dear Ivor(y)

You are not understanding me.

I am not recommending anything other than the complete embracing of Christ as the preferred solution.

I am 'STATING' possible solutions also on the purely human level. As in... possible scenarios and the outcome.

Examinator is quite right on one thing.. it is very hard to squash an idea or ideal... hence.. apart from mass conversions to Christianity, the total ethnic cleansing (using examinators logic) is the only other ultimately workable solution on a human level.

I can never understand why people make comparisons with the road toll when trying to categorize terrorism. That is quite irrational I'm afraid.
Grad rockets are not reaching further than ever before. The logical and obvious prediction based on real world evidence is:

"Hamas/Palestinians will continue to improve both the range and explosive power of rockets/missiles until they can hit Tel Aviv or any Israeli town."

Only a complete dunderhead would not get that. Israel, not being dunderheads, says to itself "Hmmmm.. this is going to lead to that... thus.. we must stop them" which leads of course to the best of many ugly solutions.
Tap tap...wake up.

Dear Foxy.. I don't see any humanity whatsoever in those hurling rockets at Israel. They did it during the 'ceasefire' and THEY(hamas) declared the ceasefire ended.. hmmm where did they get the inspiration for that from ? :) u guessed it.

Quran surah 9 verse 1

1. Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from Allâh and His Messenger (SAW) to those of the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh), with whom you made a treaty.

See how easy it is if ur a Muslim? "Just declare" your obligations are over and then in the next breath say "Kill them wherever you find them" (verse 5)

Mohammad had no humanity, nor do his followers. (unless there is humanity in "kill them wherever you find them")

Two peoples so focussed on God that they have completely lost sight of Good.
It is shameful how far humans take "us and them".

Bush-administration;lied about'weapons of'mass-destruction';to dupe us into supporting an illegal,immoral'invasion;of Iraq'.

Israel trotted out;an'infinitesimally'more credible excuse..the'Hamas'/rockets-case;as justification for its own murderous'shock and awe'in Gaza,

a long-planned campaign perniciously aimed at ousting a“regime”that came to power via popular,democratic vote.

Israeli apologists have presented absurd propaganda about those devices...what would we do if'rockets'were being launched on our homes in New York?...'if'..those'nations'had been'unlawfully/occupied'or'embargoed'by the United-States for 60 years of relentless oppression and repression,

and if all attempts at'peaceful-change'had been forcefully prevented or scuttled by the U.S.,then such attacks would be an understandable,.

Our appropriate response wouldn’t be to'bomb_the_hell'out of the nearest Canadian/Mexican city,but to collectively look into mirrors and earnestly ask ourselves,“What have we done to incur their wrath?”

Conscientious Israelis acknowledge that the Hamas rockets rationale is fraudulent...Jerusalem Post..,“We don’t want to see how people in Gaza are living,we block it out of our minds;

which,is natural for a'society'at war,but[which]also keeps that war going longer than it might[if we would recognize that'Gaza'is getting so much the worst of it].

“The Kassam[rockets;.,very few deaths/serious wounds.By contrast, Israel has terrorized[1.5 million]Gazans,locked them inside'their'narrow borders,throttled'their'economy,and killed and seriously wounded thousands of them . . .

As Gazan hospitals and morgues fill beyond capacity because of an ongoing air assault that[cruelly]began at'precisely'the hour when countless children were heading home from school,''we’re expected to believe that'small-craters'mostly in empty'Israeli-fields'constitute this[terrible]episode’s chief sin.

At any point during the past six decades,Israel could have had peace,simply by assenting to the great'moral-imperative',of our/time, namely the Palestinians’right'to their'own',unitary,sovereign homeland.

Something which Israel continues to resist tooth and nail..in Southern Lebanon,too,it maintained that only“terrorist”targets were being hit.As impartial observers finally ascertained the truth,clear evidence of enormous civilian'carnage'surfaced.

The US/Israeli'leadership'lied then,and'it’s'lying now...Apart from being an ethical travesty[offending all decent hearts],it’s an unpardonable outrage.

It takes no extraordinary'analytical-prowess'to appreciate that,when the'White-House'ridiculously blames what’s currently happening on“thugs”in Gaza,..innocents in Gaza are getting ripped to death by'American'-made'Hellfire'missiles,dispatched toward fleshly/living'targets' by Isra-eli pi-lots.

In fact,the almost certain,counterproductive outcome of Israel’s action makes us necessarily suspect that;secret;motives mistakenly judged by Tel-Aviv to be worth the risk are actually at play.

Fascinating "final solution" proposed by Porky - everybody should convert to Christianity and we'll all live happily ever after (and if they don't, then just "ethnically cleanse" the Muslims out of existence).

Topped up with a classic bit of Islamophobic vilification of Muslims:

<< Mohammad had no humanity, nor do his followers. >>

That's vilification of Muslims, not of Islam - and its purpose is to dehumanise them for the purposes of Porky's preferred solution of "ethnic cleansing".

Perhaps Porky could do us all a favour and head off to Gaza for a spot of proselytising?

OUG: "...Israel could have had peace..."

True, but only temporary peace.
Peace that will lead to even greater danger, (for Israel) later on, then a point of regretful no return.

I'm sure the Israeli think-tank understands this deeply.

If the Palestinians are Atheists/Buddhists/Christians/Hindus, then yes, a permanent peace is not only possible, Palestinians will have a country along-side Israel, co-existing peacefully.

But this is an impossible scenario. Hence there will never be peace, until one-side is totally destroyed. The Palestinians will never be totally destroyed in Islamic Middle-East. The only possiblity is the destruction of Israel. Israel is making sure this does not happen. The West knows the importance of Israel and Israel is more important than Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran.

Peace is important but nothing can be more important than the truth.

If you don't choose Islam, Islam will be against you and there will be intervals of false peace before you realise you have to deal with Islam.

The reality is grim, will always be grim. But the truth will set you free.

Do any of you bother with the historical truth of Gaza.I have fifteen websites of Jews who are learned and enlightened which is moe than I can say about you,you racist and bigot,stevenlmeyer.This space is for intelligent discussion so what the hell are you doing here.

Does anyone really know that ober 80% of Gazans are descendants of Arabs who were driven out of their rightful lands in what is today the rogue state of Israel.Ever hear of Deir Yassin? That's asking too much of you steviewonder!

What is Israel's solution for thye Gaza imbroglio?
Precisely to preserve the status quo becfause in the future all Israeli Arabs will be driven there.Why? Because of pure " demography is destiny." (Aguste Comte)Simple as that.Therefore there can be no solution to the Gaza question unless they can get the Arabs to accept the de facto sovereignty of Israel which in international lar has no de jure justification whatsover.

Get it!stevie wonder? And the rest oif you embittere4d idiots.Hamas illustrates the question of legitimacy being paid for in blood...never to succeed.They are to be admired.They know they cannot win.They know they are called upon to die for the vision splendid

socratease

Socratease, by all means share the links to some of the websites you mention.

As for name calling, save your breath to cool your porridge, and leave it to those among us who do cute things with some names and ugly things with others.

Kind regards,

Mark Conley

Thank you for a very knowledgeable post.You were absolutely right. It is such a pity that on this website we have to counter the ignorant,racist gibes of idiots.
Do they know that from the very start they broke their word to Lord Balfour when they approached the Under Secretary ( I think) for foreign affairs and specializing in the Middle East. For those who can still get past the basics of our ABC the Lord Balfour's Declaration succinctly stated that at no time should talks and discussions proceed without first consulting the Arabs who were in a 80% majority in Palestine.Futhermore he demanded that at no time were the native Arabs to be dispossessed or taken advantage of by bribes ( or forced prices)that they should nebe be put at any disadvantage.Well, Mark, to his eternal Chaim Weizman and his delegates broke the covenant from the start.He openy flaunted the truth that he never intended being burdened by an unworkable formula imposed by an Englishman who harboured anti-semitic feelings.Shame on him!And the gutless Brits went along with it all, the hyprocisy and duplicity.If you ask me it was all play acting...nudge,nudge, wink,wink.

socratease

Socratease,

You say >> “This space is for intelligent discussion so what the hell are you doing here.”

I had to laugh when I read that. Intelligent discussion, I love it. Does intelligent discussion in your mind consist of ant-Israeli sloganeering? How about being the cheer squad for Hamas terrorists? Is that intelligent discussion?

There is no solution to the situation until the violence stops. Hamas are attempting to change the facts on the ground by the use of violence and the appeal to the leftist minority globally. Basically they are fighting a PR battle with the blood of their own people.

Israel on the other hand, have the military might to crush their enemies, but know they will never be allowed.

These two constraints are what has lead to this point of seeming never ending conflict. Neither side can win in a strategic and lasting sense.

Clearly Israel are following a short term strategy, protection of their people from the incessant rocketing. This is a valid tactical goal that all gov’ts are charged with upholding.

As for Deir Yassein, it is pointless to quote random acts of bastardry as if they explain everything. Days after the massacre in Deir Yassein 80 Jewish doctors and nurses in a convoy headed to Hadassah Hospital on Mt. Scopus near Jerusalem were massacred by Arabs. Tit-for-tat brutality is commonplace in the struggle over the holy lands.

I’m sure as an educated person you know about the forced evacuation of all Jews from the old city district of Jerusalem when the Jordanian Army invaded in 1948. You will know that nearly a million Jews were evicted from their homes across the Arab world. Do you think they will ever be granted a right of return?

You say “Hamas ... They are to be admired... They know they are called upon to die for the vision splendid”

And you call others embittered, yet you cheer on people who deliberately and calculatedly set out to kill innocent women and children. Very Heroic. There is NOTHING admirable about Hamas. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Just a thought but maybe if Israel hadn't blocked Gaza's electricity and water supplies the rocket attacks may not have resumed.

Polycarp, I notice you still have an unhealthy fetish for quoting only from the Surah as justification for your unbalanced world view.

Why not switch to the Torah for a while. It's pretty much the same stuff.

Interesting op-ed in the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/opinion/30morris.html?_r=1&em=&pagewanted=all
(or Google Bernie Morris New York Times, on Google News)

The second half of the article discusses changing Israeli demography and its contribution to internal tensions.

I was led there from an article in the Huffington Post, by Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur on Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories, who was "expelled from Gaza a couple of weeks ago ...".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-falk/understanding-the-gaza-ca_b_154777.html

Both articles are thoughtful. They articulate and illuminate points made by Neve Gordon and some of our clearer posts in reply.

Both exceed the 350 word limit on Forum posts.

Both articles avoid asinine name-calling, and the religion-based blaming and vilification that some of our posters offer up here, in place of critical analysis.

Falk remarks:
"There are two conclusions that emerge: the people of Gaza are being severely victimized for reasons remote from the rockets and border security concerns, but seemingly to improve election prospects of current leaders now facing defeat, and to warn others in the region that Israel will use overwhelming force whenever its interests are at stake.

"That such a human catastrophe can happen with minimal outside interference also shows the weakness of international law and the United Nations, as well as the geopolitical priorities of the important players."

Neither Falk nor Morris leave me much of optimism.

The Real Goal/Gaza Assault?..Jonathan Cook/Counterpunch/January

full-scale ground invasion of the Gaza...will they dare to move into the real battlegrounds of central Gaza?Or will they simply be used,as they have been in the past,to terrorise the civilian population on the peripheries?

Gaza,is one mammoth refugee camp.Its narrow alleys,incapable of being negotiated by Merkava tanks,will force Israeli soldiers out into the open.[now with bombed[collapsed buildings blocking acces ever more,Gaza,is a death trap.]

The decision to sacrifice many soldiers in Gaza is not one Mr Barak,will take lightly with an election in six weeks and require the permanent military reoccupation of Gaza.

It would once again have to assume responsibility for the welfare of the local civilian population,and the army would be forced into treacherous policing of Gaza’s teeming camps.

an invasion of Gaza to overthrow Hamas would be a reversal of the trend in Israeli policy since the Oslo process of the early 1990s...Naively,Arafat assumed he was leading a government-in-waiting.

In truth,he simply became Israel’s chief security/oppression contractor.

Arafat was tolerated during the 1990s because he did little to stop Israel’s effective annexation of large parts of the West Bank through the rapid expansion of settlements and increasingly harsh movement restrictions on Palestinians while preparing for a statehood that never arrived.

Israel has sought to consolidate the physical separation of the Strip from the much-coveted West Bank...Even if not originally desired by Israel,Hamas’s takeover of Gaza has contributed significantly to that goal.

It has proved it is strong,but can it be made useful to Israel,too?

The savage blockade deprived Gaza’s population of essentials..Israel has barely bothered to hit the Hamas leadership or its military wing.Instead it has bombed the tunnels,Hamas’s treasure chest,and it has killed substantial numbers of ordinary policemen,the guarantors of law and order in Gaza.

Israel apparently hopes to persuade the Hamas leadership,as it did Arafat for a while,that its best interests are served by co-operating with Israel...israel and Hamas are almost certain in the end to agree to another ceasefire.in doing so,Hamas,like Arafat before it,loses sight of its primary task:to force Israel to end its occupation.

Sir Vivor,

I’m glad you clearly idenitified Falks “interesting” article as an OP-ED piece.

You will no doubt know that the UNHRC is an organisation run by the Arab league/Islamic Conference voting bloc in the UN. No other voting bloc can compete with the number of votes this group commands. It is the SOLE reason that the VAST majority of resolutions concerning Israel.

Indeed >> “ In recent years, the Middle East was the subject of 76% of country-specific UNGA resolutions, 100% of the Human Rights Council resolutions, 100% of the Commission on the Status of Women resolutions … In particular, the UNHRC was widely criticized in 2007 for failing to condemn other human rights abusers besides Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel,_Palestinians,_and_the_United_Nations

Considering the parlous state of most of Africa, large parts of Asia and South America, this is simply astounding.

In fact >> “By April 2007, the Council had passed nine resolutions condemning Israel, the ONLY country which it had specifically condemned.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#Council.27s_position_on_Israel

>> “The council voted on 30 June 2006 to make a review of possible human rights abuses by Israel a permanent feature of every council session. The Council’s special rapporteur on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is its only expert mandate with no year of expiry. The resolution, which was sponsored by Organization of the Islamic Conference, passed by a vote of 29 to 12 with five abstentions. Human Rights Watch urged it to look at international human rights and humanitarian law violations committed by Palestinian armed groups as well. Human Rights Watch called on the council to avoid the selectivity that discredited its predecessor and urged it to hold special sessions on other urgent situations, such as Darfur. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#Council.27s_position_on_Israel

The 2009 World Conference against racism will have Iran and Libya as Co-Chairs. Can you believe that? Given this fact; and remembering the exercise in blatant Israel bashing the last conference in Durban was; many western countries are opting out.

TBC

Dear All
Anyone wanting to get the historical facts about Palestine should log in to www.wrmea.com/jews-for-justice/index. The Washington Reports have traditional been very fair but leaning towards the Israeli position in the past.I think,but never mind that.

Here are other websites to get into to get FACTS.
1. www.jewishpeacefellowship.org
2. www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Seenate/7891
3. www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/5750/home
4.www.jewsnotzionists.org
5. www.diak.org/Haayesh-gvul.html
6. www.salam.org/activism/home-demolitions.html
7. www.btselem.org
8. www.occupied.org
9. www.rhr.israel.net This website is run by Rabbis for Human Rights
10.www.ariga.com/ozveshalom.index.asp

There are more ...if you want more I shall be only too happy to oblige.

No rancor.No bigoted hyperventalating. Get the facts.

One last service.

Try and get a book by the international famous expert on Palestine, BERNARD WASSERSTEIN.Let me introduce this scholar to you... he has held posts in Oxford (UK) and the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.. He headed up the History Dept at Brandeis Uni in Massachussets (USA) it gets exhausting giving you his CV Read the book, called "ISRAEL & PALESTINE: Why they fight and can they stop?" It is a brilliant treatise, easy to read and less than 200 pages!It cost me $26.95.If you were in WA I's be glad to lend it to you.Ask your local librarian to get it in if you arent interested in buying it.

I havent included anything from Arab websites like Al Jezira for obvious reasons. But usually you want to get two versions of a story to make up your mind.Try these websites and this book all of which I recommend honsetly and sincerely to get a true and accurate picture of what is happening in Gaza and what the Israeli will settle for to end it.
Peace. Shalom.Shanti.

socratease

Dear CJ... I thought you might have some fun with that.

Let me expand. "Anyone" who literally follows the example of the inhuman Mohammad shares in his inhumanity. The Majority of Muslims however, tend to very selectively take the injuction

[33:21] The messenger of GOD has set up a good example for those among you who seek GOD and the Last Day, and constantly think about GOD...

So, they don't go around assasinating political rivals... oh wait.. many DO just that. Hamas/Fatah etc. Ok..but most other's don't......

I don't see too many poking hot steel rods into the eyes of criminals..as Mohammad did.. nor hacking off their feet and hands, as Mohammad did... Nor executing a freshly tortured Jewish chief so he can claim his beautiful wife (Saffiya) for himself nor do we see most of them then having sexual relations with the captive 3 days after she has witnessed her family hacked to bits.....lucky for us!

So, CJ.. those who DO follow his example in such areas where his behavior is clearly identifiable.. also share his inhumanity.

So my statement was entirely correct "His followers"..those who actually follow HIM. NOT his 'partial/selective' followers.

Sir Ivory says:(quotes)

"the people of Gaza are being severely victimized for reasons remote from the rockets and border security concerns"

Errr this is 'critical analysis'? in your dreams boyoh.. that is blatant Hamas propoganda.. no matter who said it. A-gain...it is rediculous to try to find where it all went wrong. Israel will survive and Hamas will try to destroy them. See Charter section 3 article 11.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959229.html

An invention called'the Jewish people'By Tom Segev

Israel's'Declaration_of_Independence'states that the Jewish people arose in the Land of Israel and were exiled from its'homeland'.

Wrong,says the historian Shlomo-Zand...There never was a'Jewish people',only a Jewish-religion,and the exile also never happened..hence there was no return.

Zand rejects most of the stories of national-identity formation in the Bible,including the exodus from Egypt,and,the horrors of the conquest under Joshua...It's all fiction and myth that served as an excuse for the establishment of the State of Israel,he asserts;the Romans did not generally exile whole nations,and most of the Jews were permitted to remain in the country...It follows that the progenitors of the Palestinian Arabs were Jews...Zand did not invent this thesis;30 years before the Declaration of Independence,it was espoused by David Ben-Gurion,Yitzhak Ben-Zvi and others.

If the majority of the Jews were not exiled,how is it that so many of them reached almost every country on earth?

Zand quotes from many existing studies,some of which were written in Israel but shunted out of the central discourse..The first Jews of Ashkenaz Germany)did not come from the Land of Israel and did not reach Eastern Europe from Germany,but became Jews in the Khazar Kingdom in the Caucasus.

Zand explains the origins of Yiddish culture:it was not a Jewish import from Germany,but the result of the connection between the offspring of the Kuzari and Germans who traveled to the East,some of them as merchants.

We find,then,that the Zionist need to devise for them a shared ethnicity and historical continuity produced a long series of inventions and fictions,along with an invocation of racist theses...Some were concocted in the minds of those who conceived the Zionist movement,while others were offered as the findings of genetic studies conducted in Israel.

Prof.Zand teaches at Tel Aviv University.His book,"When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?" published by Resling in Hebrew),is intended to promote the idea that Israel should be a"state of all its citizens"-Jews,Arabs and others[ie all semites]-in contrast to its declared identity as a "Jewish and democratic" state.

many Israelis will be astonished to read for the first time.

Sir Vivor

cont' from above,

I present all the above as background when considering the likelihood of Falk being in any sense objective or impartial.

Bernie Morris’s article is, I agree, a very well argued and cogent piece.

You say >> “Both articles avoid asinine name-calling, and the religion-based blaming and vilification that some of our posters offer up here, in place of critical analysis.”

Bernie Morris’s article fits that bill. Falks most certainly does not. He clearly blames Israel for the failure of the ceasefire, whilst writing off Hamas repeated missile attacks on Israel as harmless and irrelvant.

Furthermore, you’re quote from Falk’s piece clearly demonstrates that not only is he not balanced or unbiased, but that he has clearly CHOSEN a side.

Comparing Hamas missile attacks with car accidents is simply fallacious. We could just as easily compare Palestinian deaths due to cancer, or heart disease and conclude Israel’s attacks are nothing to worry about. Hamas missiles aren’t causing limited casualties by choice. They simply have poor guidance, and the Israelis have bomb shelters. We have seen time and again what the suicide bombers will do when let loose in a civilian area. Maximum civilian casualties. Tell me, if these attacks are so insignificant, why does Hamas carry them out?

I think there is a good case to be made that they are acts of aggression which graphically demonstrate Hamas intention to never make peace with Israel. Another objective is to invite retaliation, which they can then turn into PR and support in the West.

I have a simple question for you. Do you honestly believe that Hamas has ANY intention of making peace with Israel?

Paul L,

I share your frustration regarding the public prominence of some issues and public ignorance of others.

I read your concern in your first post as the inconsistency shown by the UNHRC governing body toward human rights in Israel as opposed to African crisis points. Beyond a general commiseration, I can only say that I know very little about UNHRC or its relationship to my local UN Association, where I would expect to find face-to-face expertise and/or interest.

Likewise, I know relatively little about the middle-east. My interest in the relationship between Palestinians and Israelis is passionate but general, and is largely an expression of my ideas and feelings about natural, social and politically expressed justice. I have not been to the Holy Land for any reason, and do not expect to go there. My acquaintance with Israelis, Jews and other middle-easterners no longer extends much beyond personal acquaintance, as Tasmania is geographically remote from the Diasporas of middle-eastern people; I have been here for nearly 20 years, with few visits elsewhere.

As for the comparison between fatalities from traffic accidents and acts of war, I noted, "Plainly there is a difference in intent".

And I ask - what is the intent of the Israeli government in blowing up a police station and killing a lot of new police recruits, then dismissing it as collateral damage? When police recruits are targeted in Iraq, it is publicised as terrorism. When buildings are blown up in Iraq, by insurgents, it is publicised as terrorism.

What are the Israelis trying to teach you and me, and the rest of the listening world? Will the Israelis use the same methods of instruction to reach other goals? That question is the (admittedly obscure) point of my earlier post.

One of my concerns is that Israeli government is leading the people of Israel and Palestine toward destruction and shame, on a scale not seen since the end of WWII. That such a thing should happen speaks no good of the many governments who are willingly involved in this continuing murder and mayhem.

Paul L

As for your question about whether I "honestly believe that Hamas has ANY intention of making peace with Israel":

I have no way of knowing. It is difficult to give either Hamas or the current Israeli government the benefit of the doubt, regarding peaceful intentions, or a just resolution of the conflict.

It is plain to me that the Israelis have the more powerful and better funded military, and chokepoint control over most flows of energy, resources and information across Gazan borders. To my way of thinking, that power gives them proportionate responsibility for the nature and consequences of the ongoing conflict.

The spectrum of information and propaganda suggests to me that the Gazan people are more united behind Hamas than the Israeli people are, behind their current government. That makes it only more difficult to resolve the conflict peacefully, as both parties are currently committed to combat. I do not know how many Israeli Jews, Arabs and others volunteer for their military. Likewise, I do not know how many of Hamas' combatants are volunteers.

What is plain to me is that oppression breeds fear, solidarity and resistance on both sides of the Gazan border. Israel clearly has the upper hand and bears proportionate responsibility. Also responsible are the players behind the scenes, insofar as the conflict is war by proxy.

Thanks, Socratease, for the list of URL's.
Others may also be interested in
http://www.btselem.org/English/Gaza_Strip/20081231_Gaza_Letter_to_Mazuz.asp

This link to a letter to the Israeli Attorney General, by a Jewish human rights group, discusses Israel's responsibility for indiscriminate casualties in Gaza:

"The principle of distinction, one of the fundamental principles of international humanitarian law, states that all parties engaged in combat must distinguish between civilian objects and military targets, and are forbidden to intentionally attack civilians and civilian objects."

Of course, the same principle applies to Hamas and others who attack Israel indiscriminately, for whatever reason. To me, it is a question of appropriate response, aiming toward conflict resolution and justice for all. Israel could do better. Certainly some of its people are trying, but their efforts are rarely publicised

Dear All

Here is more interesting "facts" from honest research:

Go to www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959229 to the article by one of Israel's most respected journalists. It is called

"AN INVENTION CALLED THE JEWISH PEOPLE."

Before any of you scream "anti-semite" at me please note it was written in Israel's leading newspaper by an Israeli journalist.There's be thousands in Israel who always knew this but kept it under wraps but the savage murder of over 400 Gazans has forced Israelis to embrace the bitter truth.

Score one to Hamas. They are paying the price of legitimacy in blood.

I am not taking sides.When anyone searches for the truth it seems inevitable that what comes to be unesrthed will be unpalatable for some. But as the Galilean radical in first century Palestine once said:

"Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

Hmm.

socratease

from
http://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm
I apologize..for the'language'which will appear'here-UNDER'

from The official unabridged'Soncino'Edition of the'Talmud'published in 1935..quotations with footnotes from the Soncino Edition of the Talmud,(Book)

YEBAMOTH,60b."As R.Joshua,b.Levi related:`There was a certain town in the Land of Israel the legitimacy of whose inhabitants disputed,and Rabbi sent R.Ramanos who conducted an inquiry and'found'in it the daughter of a'proselyte'who was under the age of three years and one day(14),and Rabbi declared her eligible to live with a priest(15)."

(footnotes)"(13)A proselyte under the age of three years and one day may be married by a priest...(14)And was married to a priest.(15)i.e.,permitted to continue to live with her'husband'."

(Book)

SANHEDRIN,55b-55a:"What is meant by this?Rab said:Pederasty with a child below nine years of age is not deemed as pederasty with a child above that.

Samuel said:Pederasty with a child below three years is not treated as with a child above that(2].....55a)(he)who commits bestiality,whether naturally or unnaturally:...or a woman who causes herself to be beastially abused,....whether naturally or unnaturally,is liable to punishment(5)."

(footnotes)"(1)The reference is to..the passive..'subject'/victim..of sodomy.

As stated in supra[54a,guilt is incurred by the active participant even if the former be a minor;i.e.,less than thirteen years old...

2)Rab makes nine years the minimum;but if one committed sodomy with a child of lesser age,no guilt is incurred...Samuel makes three the minimum.(There are thus three distinct clauses in this Baraitha.

why single out pederasty:in all crimes of incest,..the'passive'adult does not incur'guilt'unless the other'party'is at least nine years and a day?

Hence the Baraitha supports Rab's'contention'that nine years(and a day)is the minimum age of the...passive partner..for the adult to be liable."(emphasis in original,Ed.)

Before giving any more verbatim quotations from the"sort of book" from which it is falsely alleged Jesus"drew the teachings''..

In'official-statement'made by Rabbi Morris N.Kertzer..that the Talmud"IS THE LEGAL CODE WHICH FORMS THE BASIS OF JEWISH RELIGIOUS LAW AND IT IS THE TEXTBOOK USED IN THE TRAINING OF RABBIS".Please bear this in mind as you read further.

http://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm

Is further proof needed on that question?let those in glass houses know they stand on in-firm ground's[by their deeds will we know them]

Top[5]Lies..Assault on Gaza[edited]
http://www.infowars.com/?p=6956

Lie#1]..Israel..only targeting'legitimate/..military'sites,..seeking to protect'innocent'lives...never'targets'civilians.

The Gaza Strip..densely populated..The presence of'militants'within a civilian population does not deprive that population of their'protected-status',...any assault upon that'population'..under the guise of targeting'militants'..is'a war crime.

...When rockets from Gaza
kill Israeli civilians,it is a war crime.


Karen Abuzayd..Israel violated the truce,not Hamas....Members of Hamas are the democratically-elected-representatives of the Palestinian people..

Dozens of these elected leaders have been kidnapped and held in Israeli prisons without charge...

..Israel’s allowing only the most minimal/amounts of humanitarian supplies to enter...Israel is bombing'and'killing Palestinian civilians...Hospitals running on generators have little or no fuel...Doctors have no proper equipment or medical supplies to treat the injured.These people,too,are the victims of Israeli policies targeted..directly'designed/planed'to punish the civil-ian population.

Lie#2)Hamas violated the cease-fire.The Israeli bombardment is a response to Palestinian rocket fire..

Israel never observed the cease-fire to begin with.

From the beginning,it announced a“special security zone”..within the Gaza Strip..Israel announced its intention that Israeli soldiers would shoot at farmers and other individuals...in direct violation of not only the cease-fire..but international law.

..Israel effectively ended the truce on November[4]by launching an airstrike into Gaza that killed five and injured several others.

Lie#3)Hamas is using human shields,a war crime..There has been no evidence that Hamas has used human shields....Israel engages in indiscriminate warfare[such as]the assassination of Nizar Rayan,...It is victims like his'dead children'that Israel defines as“human shields”in its propaganda.

Lie#4)Arab nations have not'condemned'Israel’s actions..The populations of those Arab countries are outraged at Israel’s actions and at their own governments...Simply stated, the Arab governments do not represent'their'respective'Arab-populations'...either complacency or complicity in Israel’s crimes...because they are submissive to the will of the US,which fully supports Israel.

Lie#5)Israel is not responsible for civilian'deaths'because it warned the Palestinians of Gaza to flee....But the people of Gaza have nowhere to flee to....They are trapped within the Gaza Strip...It is by Israeli design that they cannot escape across the border..that they have no food,water,or fuel by which to survive..No place is safe within the Gaza Strip.
The Real Goal of the Gaza Assault
http://www.infowars.com/?p=6929
Gulf states agree on monetary union
http://www.infowars.com/?p=6899
http://www.infowars.com/?p=6937

Sir Vivor,

You say >> “As for your question about whether I "honestly believe that Hamas has ANY intention of making peace with Israel: … I have no way of knowing. It is difficult to give either Hamas or the current Israeli government the benefit of the doubt, regarding peaceful intentions, or a just resolution of the conflict. “

I assume you have read the Hamas charter where they explicitly state that there will be NO PEACE with Israel. And the passages where they quote the Quran about the wiping out of all the Jews?

I’m sure you have seen them but just in case, let me repeat them here for you.

_________________

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

__________________

I struggle to believe this organisation, a radical Islamist movement committed to a literal interpretation of the Koran, doesn’t mean exactly what they say.

You say >> “Israel clearly has the upper hand and bears proportionate responsibility”

Tell me what you think the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza was, if not an olive branch? A chance for the Palestinians to respond? As the old quote about Yasser Arafat goes, “he never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity”. It seems things never change.

TBC

It is unrealistic to suggest that "If the Israeli government really cared about its citizens and the country's long term ability to sustain itself in the Middle East, it would abandon the use of violence and talk with its enemies."

Note that Israel has been talking with its enemies since the 1960's to no avail. After 47 years of talking nothing has changed, so the time is nigh for a strongher strategy. Both sides seem to be overly fanatical about the religious importance they attach to the land and, each other's rights to occupy it. There seems no alternative but war however, I believe that Israel has grossly underestimated and miscalculated its chances of success. IRAQ is an awesome example of underestimating the enemy.

Like the previous wars, this one is doomed and that, is my greater concern; that this war will change nothing but it will prolong endless suffering, death and injury without any real achievment.

CONT'

There was a ceasefire in place, yet the Palestinians repeatedly violated it. Do I think it’s possible that Israel messed them around a bit? Absolutely, but the Palestinians could have avoided all this by just NOT rocketing Israel. With no rockets flying into Israel, international pressure would have built and forced Israel to drop the blockade.

Please answer me another simple question. Why do you think Hamas rockets Israel?

You say >> “"The principle of distinction, one of the fundamental principles of international humanitarian law, states that all parties engaged in combat must distinguish between civilian objects and military targets, and are forbidden to intentionally attack civilians and civilian objects."

I really don’t believe you are seriously suggesting Israel targets civilians. Are you? Israel goes to great lengths to limit the fallout on civilians from their attacks on Hamas. Palestinian civillians were telephoned by the IDF to notify them that they should leave their houses as their area was being targeted for attack. Israeli planes air dropped letters to the same effect in other places.

Just imagine on D Day, 6th June 1944, if the British and Americans were held responsible for civilian deaths in the sea-side towns of Normandy. We would all be speaking German or Russian, no doubt.

Israel has a right to protect itself. There is NO WAY of doing this without causing civilian casualties, even taking all the care in the world. Hamas hide their weapons and commanders in built up areas for this very reason.

You say >> “Israel clearly has the upper hand and bears proportionate responsibility."

There is no such thing as one-sided peace. You can’t declare peace unilaterally, you need a partner. Since Israel does not have this partner I therefore cannot see how Israel bears responsibility. Proportionate or otherwise.

I don’t understand what you mean by the statement >> “Also responsible are the players behind the scenes, insofar as the conflict is war by proxy.”

Who is really fighting this war, if Israel and Palestine are just proxies

Hi y'all,

What is Israel's Gaza goal?

Keep control of the former mandate of Palestine (and Golan) for 100%, and continue to create facts on the ground for if they are ever forced to negotiate.
(In the mean time make friends with the coming empire of China, rather than the one that may not last much longer, the USA.)

In that regard Zionists and Hamas want the same thing, a one state ... not a two states solution. It is just that the cameras/ spotlight won't go away so we can sort this out once and for all, but there are plenty of excuses to continue the cycle of violence ...

Over the last 60 years it would seem Zionist strategy and tactics have resulted in the world commonly referring to the area as Israel and the Occupied - or Disputed if you will - Territories.

Apparently, if the full Gaza Strip and West Bank - not sure about Jerusalem - were under Arab control it would equate to 22% of the land. Why give away 22% when you can whack them? Might is right?

Of course Arabs siding with the Nazis, Baathists, Soviets - as in the enemy of my enemy is my friend - has not proven to be very ...

Happy New Year

Paul L,

I have not read the Hamas Charter, and am no more interested in reading it than I am in searching the internet for the Koenig Memorandum and reading it line by line (see my post, above, of Thursday arvo, 1-1-09).

Does the Hamas charter reflects the will of all Gazans? Can you tell me whether this is the document outlining the domains and limits of Gazan governmental processes? Your excerpts suggest to me that it is a political tract, not a document of governance. It bears about the same relationship to governance as any other party platform or manifesto.

But I am not being dismissive. If the people of Gaza are behind this charter in majority numbers and are willing to lay down their lives for it, then plainly the current Israeli government has cause for concern.

Last night on TV, I saw ordnance used in abundance against the Gazans: ordnance that, in a dense, urban setting, can only be indiscriminate in effect. Is this scale of attack justified by a political tract, by a party platform? Whose tract? Whose platform? Whose policy?

Is this scale of attack justified by the unstoppable launching of wildly inaccurate missiles by unknown parties? How do I distinguish this attack from the destruction of Lidice, or Guernica?

The unfortunate truth is that, in the very best of times, it was impossible to entirely stop the launching of missiles from Gaza. Why? Because the factions involved were not under Palestinian Authority or "Gazan Authority" control, any more than the "Real IRA" is under the control of the IRA. Yes, there are connections. No, there is no chain of command or reliable control.

To me, the Israeli government has always been like the princess complaining about the pea under the mattress, in demanding an unachievably low level of hostilities. Should I suspect the involvement of Israeli or other agents provocateurs or clandestine groups, maintaining a barrier to productive diplomacy and thus assuring that unmeetable expectations about rocket attacks from Gaza remain unmet?

I will continue to give both governments the benefit of the doubt.

Sir Vivor,

You say >> “I have not read the Hamas Charter, and am no more interested in ... the Koenig Memorandum … Can you tell me whether this is the document outlining the domains and limits of Gazan governmental processes?

Frankly this is a cop out. The Koening memorandum was issued in 1976, 3 years after Israel was nearly annihilated by the combined might of the Arab armies. It does not represent recent Israeli thinking.

Hamas has only been around since the late 80’s. And the Charter dates to 1988. It is entirely irrelevant whether the Charter represents the will of the Palestinian people, because Hamas holds power. What is important for Israel (and the rest of the world) to consider is, “what are Hamas’s intentions”? How are the “domains and limits” of Gazan governmental process relevant to that discussion ?

The Hamas charter tells everyone what their intentions are. I don’t suggest that they can’t change their intentions, I am suggesting that they have not done so and likely will not do so.

You say >> “Your excerpts suggest to me that it is a political tract, not a document of governance. It bears about the same relationship to governance as any other party platform or manifesto “

Yes it is a political tract, Hamas is a political party and war is an extension of politics. But even more importantly, Hamas are a religious party. And statements of intent from religious groups are not to be taken lightly. In any case, don’t you think if the world had paid a little more attention to the author of Mein Kampf, and believed him, we might have been well served?

I’m not suggesting Hamas can recreate the holocaust. What I am suggesting is that they mean what they say and their actions reinforce this.

Here are some recent quotes from Hamas leaders.

>> "Israel is not a legitimate entity, and no amount of pressure can force us to recognize its right to exist."
-Dr. Mahmud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, Washington Times, February 4, 2006

TBC

CONT'

>> "Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die, they will experience humiliation and degradation every day."
-Dr. Mahmud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, Washington Times, February 4, 2006

>> "Neither the liberation of the Gaza Strip nor the liberation of the West Bank or even Jerusalem will suffice us. Hamas will pursue the armed struggle until the liberation of all our lands. We don't recognize the state of Israel or its right to hold onto one inch of Palestine. Palestine is an Islamic land belonging to all the Muslims."
-Dr. Mahmud al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, The Jerusalem Post, August 18, 2005

>> "Tomorrow, our nation will sit on the throne of the world. This is not a figment of the imagination, but a fact. Tomorrow we will lead the world, Allah willing."
-Khalid al-Mish'al, leader of Hamas, Al-Jazeera TV, February 3, 2006

>> "Today, you are fighting the army of Allah. You are fighting against peoples for whom death for the sake of Allah, and for the sake of honor and glory, is preferable to life....How can you possibly defeat us?"
- Khalid al-Mish'al, leader of Hamas, Al-Jazeera TV, February 3, 2006, from the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI)

I leave the best for last

>> "Hamas has never proposed to change or amend its charter [calling for the destruction of Israel]. The platform presents a realistic view that reflects Hamas's goals for the next four years. ... we place emphasis on the elimination and non-recognition of Israel."
- Salah Al-Bardawil, Hamas candidate for Palestinian Legislative Council IslamOnline -- Islamic extremist website -- January 14, 2006

I offer these quotes merely to point out Hamas’s intentions. We all know Israeli settlers say some stupid things, but these quotes come from the people who hold power in Gaza.

It has become clear that Hamas used the ceasefire to rebuild its stocks of weaponry and husband its resources. How can Israel truly negotiate in good faith, with people who use the ceasefire as a cover to rearm and then renew their attacks?

as i have pointed out in other posts to this topic
israel[mossad] supported fatah being set up when it suited
when fatah rebelled it set up hamas

THE POINT BEING, twice allready israel got support[via a proxey]
had it used the good will that support created..[like that what got hamas elected WAS IT SERVING NEED] and IF ISRAEL stopped prodding the prisoners in the gulag..[for over 40?50 years, peace would have come a long time ago

see how israel/WAR special intrest has set this up to fail
because it chose to be the omnipotant oppressor ,

at anytime israel could have used its power over fatah leadership to bring peace

BUT IT CHOSE NOT TO

the question begs answer as to why?

90 billion of aid from usa?
settlers?
or some deeper and darker reason?

there is now a war purely because israel leadership feels war suits its adgenda, who are your leaders serving?

the arabs leaders are serving outside adgenda's [us, world bank who knows]thus sit back and watch it all unwind

there is one who controls these realms ,call him satan or rothchild or whatever name the power that makes leaderrs oppress their own [and other peoples[from africa, to north korea, from zimbabwe to gaza,

there is some evil power who is glorying in all this MURDER

and murder is what it is

god gives us life [all of us life]
and satans minions seek to take life away

you either serve life giver
or the life taker

you cannot serve two masters

someone is intent to realise hell
right here on earth
who is serving life or death
is revealed by their deeds

no excuse can make a GOOD PERSON DO A BAD THING

EVIL WILL ALLWAYS MAKE MURDER , RAPE, THEFT ,...SOUND REASONABLE

BUT THOSE WHO MURDER [OR CONDONE IT]
ARE REVEALED FOR WHAT THEY ARE

Paul L,
You have focused on the first paragraph of my reply, with no evident consideration of the rest, or how it might relate to your question, or to the overall circumstances, both historical and contemporary, which lead us to this moment.

You have gone on at length about Hamas' public leaders' political statements. Thank you for the opportunity to read all that tripe.

You have mentioned Mein Kampf, and reminded us of the 20-20 hindsight of thousands of publicists and millions more of the unheard and unread, and the many dead.

These many, many people, who either saw confirmed their initial intuitions and fears about Hitler, or who philosophised in retrospect. An example of the latter would be the famous industrialist, Henry Ford, whose assembly lines at the German Ford Motor Company (Ford-Werke AG) manufactured vehicles for Hitler's Wehrmacht from 1932 to 1945 - see "Working for the Enemy" By Reinhold Billstein and others (available through Google Books : just Google "German Ford Motor Company")

But you have missed my point. Read my entire post again , if you wish, and have another lash at a more comprehensive reply.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/West_Bank_%26_Gaza_Map_2007_%28Settlements%29.gif
Settlements ...

Survivor.

You say >> “Last night on TV, I saw ordnance used in abundance against the Gazans: ordnance that, in a dense, urban setting, can only be indiscriminate in effect. Is this scale of attack justified by a political tract, by a party platform? Whose tract? Whose platform? Whose policy?”

The Hamas Charter is an accurate reflection of the goals and motives of Hamas. The people of Gaza clearly support the Hamas leadership. I do not however suggest that the Charter by itself is a reason to invade Gaza. Indeed it is disingenuous of you to suggest such a thing. I certainly never suggested it. Israel is attacking Gaza in order to over run the missile launching sites. Two ancillary goals are to weaken Hamas militarily and rebuild Israels deterence capability.

My point in the previous post was to demonstrate that there is no partner in peace for Israel, no matter what they do. You cannot make peace with someone who does not want to make peace with you. It’s that simple. Therefore Israel must follow a short term policy of self-protection, which under other circumstances (ie if hamas really was interested in peace) might legitimately be considered counter productive.

I’m not sure what ordinance you are referring to. Israel’s bombs are virtually ALL guided weapons which have a very high level of accuracy.

You say >> “Is this scale of attack justified … ‘

I don’t believe in any doctrine of proportional response. I think Israel is justified in using the force required to stop the rocket attacks.

You say >> “How do I distinguish this attack from the destruction of Lidice, or Guernica?

Don’t you think that is a little dramatic? Germany was never under attack, day and night, by Spanish rockets. And how can you compare Israel’s attacks with the massacre of every man over 16 and concentration camp liquidation of everyone else in Lidice. Furthermore, the Nazis were bent on conquest. Israel is unlikely to remain in Gaza.

TBC

CONT'

Unfortunately, Israel cannot protect itself without causing civilian casualties. Hamas has seen to that by hiding its men and weapons in densely populated areas. As long as Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties (and of course NEVER target civilians directly) then I think they are justified. This is not to say that I don’t find it horrific. I feel for Palestinian civilians. But Israel simply has no real alternatives for reasons outlined above.

You say >> “ it was impossible to entirely stop the launching of missiles from Gaza.”

That’s the old excuse Yasser Arafat made time after time. And it was a lie then. It’s simply not true that Hamas were not involved in these attacks. They run the tiny territory. Even if they weren’t personally behind the rocket attacks (debatable), they have the muscle to stop them if they wanted to.

You say >> “the Israeli government has always been like the princess complaining about the pea under the mattress, in demanding an unachievably low level of hostilities.

I simply don’t believe that Hamas can’t stop the rocket attacks. And frankly, if it were you and your family having to spend most days in a bomb shelter, I really don’t think you would be dismissing it as a “pea in the mattress” issue.

To conclude, I apologise. I did not read your post as thoroughly as I should have. Nevertheless I hope I have convinced you that the Hamas Charter cannot be dismissed out of hand.

MX2,

Hamas and Israel are fighting in GAZA. Did you notice on your map that there are no settlements in Gaza?

Did you realise that at the Camp David talks in 2000 Israel offered an eventual 94% of the west bank and 100% of Gaza PLUS an area equivalent to 1% of Israels total land mass in the Negev PLUS Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem. The remaining 6% Israel wished to keep were invariably large Israeli towns, built completely by Israelis, often on land bought freehold by Israel.

Settlements are not the sticking point for Hamas.

i think this link of quotes explains it all

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.html?q=palestinians.html

please note the quotes are linked to the story [con-text] in which they were spoken

posted my thoughts here
http://www.change.org/ideas/view/stop_supporting_israeli_apartheid

its a wakeup call

i wish the bloggers supporting israel murder
would not keep posting the same stale lines

and tell libby to stop smiling so smuggly about premeditated murder
[one third of the civilian deaths are kids]

Hi again, Paul L, Thank you for your reply.

I don’t expect you to agree with my views, but it’s important to remember that many of my concerns are shared by a broad spectrum of observers of current events in Gaza.

The degree to which the people of Hamas support the Hamas Charter strikes both of us as extreme, but Hamas is a democratically elected government, whatever its platform. While the Hamas government is legitimate, its actions may not be: for example, official or unofficial involvement in indiscriminate attacks on civilians in Israeli territory.

As to your evident despair about partners in peace: cynicism, despair, grief and hatred provide a fertile field for war profiteers who are often extremists of their own religious stripe, or else comfortably faithless, cynical and defeatist.

It is up to individuals to decide how they will respond to events, and to what degree. You may not personally believe in a doctrine of proportional response, but I believe it is a recognized principle of international law.

The ordnance that concerns me is pictured at:
http://www.linkezeitung.de/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5931&Itemid=61

An mgm.org activist has identified it as a white phosphorus shell. The picture as well as repeated and varied similar televised instances all show this weapon being used in populated areas. Seems to me like incendiary weapons are being used by the Israeli military, in indiscriminate attacks.

You remark:
”Hamas and Israel are fighting in GAZA. Did you notice on your map that there are no settlements in Gaza?”

There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza, but Google Maps shows Jibalaya Refugee camp to be about 5 km NNE of Gaza, in the Gaza Strip. The area including Gaza and Jibalaya looks to me to be densely populated and at risk of indiscriminate air attack.

Do you expect the IDF will be helpful in identifying unexploded ordnance, wherever it may be in the Gaza Strip, after this attack? I must give them the benefit of the doubt.

An afterthought for Paul L.

Several issues I did not revisit, in your post. The Israeli representative to the UN who appeared on the 7PM news here in Hobart. Her position seemed indistinguishable from yours. You may both say what you like about rockets from Gaza all being the direct responsibility of Hamas, but it is an unrealistic position, and an unforgiving one. Demanding 100% cease is in my humble opinion, very foolish and frankly, provocative.

As for comparing Gaza to attacks on Lidice, the Warsaw Ghetto and Guernica: circumstances in each case were different, but they were in each case cruel, stupid, grossly disproportionate and indiscriminate. Every one led to world outrage and commitment to fight the evil which brought death and sorrow to innocent people. The aggressors, of course, did not recognise their targets as innocent.

It is not the ordinary people of Israel who are evil, any more or less than it was the ordinary people of Germany. Both nations can be seen as having been painted into a corner by greater influences.

Citizens are obliged to obey the laws of their government. If there is a war on, then ordinary men and women may become serial killers, and when the war is over, they can go home to their families and get on with their lives as best they can. If their country loses, their leaders and certain other key figures may be tried for war crimes.

A current report from Gaza:
http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/

"My father went on to describe accounts of Palestinians being used as human shields-by the Israelis. The Israeli military has been forcing families out of their homes and making them scope out buildings and rooms for the army to enter and for their snipers to nest in. It is a practice they have used before ... Btselem has said that "Israeli soldiers routinely used Palestinian civilians as human shields by forcing them to carry out life-threatening military tasks", despite an Israeli High Court Order prohibiting the practice."

Paul L, I expect we shall have to agree to disagree

Sir Vivor,

You say >> “I don’t expect you to agree with my views, but it’s important to remember that many of my concerns are shared by a broad spectrum of observers of current events in Gaza

Likewise it is important to remember that many of my concerns are shared by a broad spectrum of observers. Our Prime Minister and our national broadsheet broadly concur with my position.

Regarding the nations which have come out and criticised Israels actions, you should keep in mind that there are very few countries where political concerns do not dominate the response to this conflict. In the vast majority of cases, politicians are obliged to take a pro Palestinian position, or commit electoral suicide. The UN is unfortunately afflicted with the same bias.

You say >> “ but Hamas is a democratically elected government, whatever its platform”

I am not denying that Hamas is a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. But that should not insulate it from responsibilty for its words and actions.

You say >> “As to your evident despair about partners in peace: cynicism, despair, grief and hatred provide a fertile field”

This is a misrepresentation of my position. I am not despondent, or in grief. I legitimately believe, with good reason, that Hamas is not interested in a negotiated settlement. I believe they are following a strategy which they hope will deliver total victory. Thus they are totally opposed to a negotiated settlement.

I believe proportional response has a role when the potential for real negotiation is still on the table. Furthermore I don’t believe that Israel is justified in just NUKING Gaza. So in some sense I believe in proportional response. But the proportional part is very difficult. For example, is the number of casualties inflicted the proportional part? In which case Israel should be allowed five rockets in return for Hamas’ hundreds because Hamas's gunners are inept.

TBC

CONT'

You say >> “ … identified it as a white phosphorus shell. .. this weapon [is] being used in populated areas “
.
I can understand how this might seem incredible to you. The subtext you have missed is that WP, when it is exploded high in the air like it was, is used as smoke. This is very different from setting a WP shell to explode on contact. This latter tactic is rather unpleasant, and definitely has no place in a built up area. But when it is exploded high in the air, or in front of the enemy, its primary result is a harmless smokescreen. In the air, the white phosphorus rapidly converts to smoke and the very nasty burns, which are the result of skin contact with WP, are highly unlikely. The smoke itself is not a weapon.

>> “Weight-for-weight, phosphorus is the most effective smoke-screening agent known, for two reasons: first, it absorbs most of the screening mass from the surrounding atmosphere and secondly, the smoke particles are an aerosol, a mist of liquid droplets which are close to the ideal range of sizes for Mie scattering of visible light. This effect has been likened to three dimensional textured privacy glass—the smoke cloud does not simply obstruct an image, but thoroughly scrambles both visual and infrared radiation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_(weapon)
You say >> “The area including Gaza and Jibalaya looks to me to be densely populated and at risk of indiscriminate air attack.

I don’t think you will find much evidence of indiscriminate air attack by the Israelis. Their weapons are very accurate as is their intelligence. Indeed 100’s of Palestinians have been killed as collaborators for giving the Israelis targeting information.

You say >> Do you expect the IDF will be helpful in identifying unexploded ordnance, wherever it may be in the Gaza Strip, after this attack?

Surely you jest. Any unexploded ordinace ( and there won’t be much as the Israelis are neither carpet bombing, nor mine laying) will be rapidly recycled by Hamas etc as improvised explosive devices, AKA IED's.

Paul L:

Regarding white phosphorus as an indiscriminate weapon, you say:
"The subtext you have missed is that WP, when it is exploded high in the air like it was, is used as smoke. ... The smoke itself is not a weapon."

Paul, Both my father and I have had firsthand experience of white phosphorus. I don’t think I have missed any subtext here.

What strategic function does white phosphorus fulfil, released as documented? It must reach the ground and burn where it lands, before it can provide an effective smokescreen at ground level.

At ground level, it may indiscriminately start fires and may also burn civilians directly. The smokescreen would be as confusing for IDF troops as for Hamas insurgents, unless the IDF troops use Gazan civilians as human shields, and shoot at anything else that moves.

You say:
"I don’t think you will find much evidence of indiscriminate air attack by the Israelis. ... 100’s of Palestinians have been killed as collaborators for giving the Israelis targeting information."

Accurate targeting is not at issue. If the IDF targets a “smart" weapon at a civilian refuge such as a UN school, the target controller done something cruel, stupid and criminal, just like the soldiers who locked townspeople in a barn in Lidice, and torched the barn.

Soldiers have limited discretion, but the soldier who attacks civilians is guilty of a war crime.

Collaborators providing targets may be settling personal grudges or acting as provocateurs. And, if collaborators are reliably assisting the IDF with targeting, why are these valuable intelligence assets not better used by Israel, in better times, to build more directly toward peace, stability and prosperity for Palestinians?

Paul, you evidently have no grasp of how very cruel and stupid the Israeli government currently looks to many, many millions of people in the rest of the world, not to mention the civilians in Gaza. Whatever the Israeli goal in Gaza, it is coming at grossly disproportionate human cost to all parties.

What, in your opinion, is Israel’s goal in Gaza?

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/world-silence-as-gaza-bleeds/

the level of inhumanity and devastation..a quote from the Talmud,

“Who can protest an injustice but does not..is an accomplice to the act”

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/the-real-reason-behind-israels-blitzkrieg-on-gaza/

It has nothing to do with Hamas..nothing to do with rocket attacks in Southern Israel..the truth is,it’s all about scoring points(and votes)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/red-cross-slams-israel-over-access-to-wounded-1232472.html

Red Cross accuses Israeli forces today of failing to assist wounded Palestinians and of "unacceptable" delays..four small children were found alive next to their mothers bodies.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/vatican-official-gaza-is-now-a-concentration-camp.html
THE Gaza Strip turned into a“concentration camp”,senior Vatican official.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/doctor-decries-israels-use-of-illegal-weapons-in-assault-on-gaza.html

Israel is using white phosphorous on areas populated by civilians..a direct violation of the 1980 Geneva Treaty which forbids such weapons on civilian populations.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/gaza-victims-burns-increase-concern-over-phosphorus.html

Photographic evidence..Israel has been using controversial white phosphorus shells,despite official denials by the Israel Defence Forces.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/red-cross-israel-leaves-wounded-to-die.html

Red Cross demands immediate access into Gaza from Israel,after its aid workers run into’shocking scenes’of weak children and dead mothers.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/what-kind-of-security-will-this-barbarism-bring-israel.html

Israel has killed and wounded almost four thousand men,women and children..it has entombed whole families together in the ruins of their homes.All this to make Israelis feel secure?..What security is this kind of barbarism ever likely to gain them?

http://www.prisonplanet.com/gaza-catastrophe-resource-conflict.html

a flagrant breach of the six-months ceasefire.the objective of the military operation is limited by the aim of putting an end to the rocket-fire.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/59250.html

Israeli soldiers opened fire Thursday on a truck attempting to deliver humanitarian aid to the beleaguered Gaza Strip,killing one United Nations-contracted driver and seriously wounding another,

The shooting occurred at the Erez checkpoint,the Israeli military had approved the delivery.

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/live-from-gaza-day-12-of-the-israeli-blitzkrieg/

This is very risky since shells rain down and drones hover over me!I will keep this up.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/time-to-tell-the-truth-about-israel-without-fear-of-the-mind-police.html

State-of-the art Israeli jets, paid for by the United States, bomb civilian targets in this tragic, poverty-stricken wasteland which acts as a holding camp for the human beings the Israeli government would rather be dead.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-destroys-over-20-houses-in-gaza.html

Israel’s perpetual aerial bombardment of the Gaza Strip has reduced more than 20 houses to rubble in the southern town of Rafah.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/anti-israeli-protests-continue-globally.html

The Israeli incursions into Gaza have triggered protests all over the world with demonstrators calling for an immediate ceasefire

Socratease,
thank you for the interesting links. Here's where one of them led me:

http://gaza-sderot.blogspot.com/

This is a conversation between a man in Gaza and a man in Sderot. I am hoping their efforts toward understanding continue, and flourish.

Also:

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2009/sc9565.doc.htm

Yesterday's press release from the UN Security Council. An excerpt:

"As the Council concluded the special meeting it began yesterday on the Gaza crisis, speakers expressed deep concern that thus far into the 12-day-old conflict, neither side had heeded worldwide calls for an immediate cessation of hostilities. ... Still, it was the plight of the nearly 1.5 million Palestinian civilians trapped by the fighting, and the deteriorating humanitarian conditions, that drew the most concern."

Imagine if food distribution in a metropolitan area the size of Hobart (about 150,000) were restricted to 3 hours per day. Then multiply by 10, and you have the population of Gaza. I guess we here in Hobart could thank our lucky stars that no-one was blowing up schools, hospitals and ambulances.

Three hours per day, for about 80 trucks to cross the border, with all necessary supplies into Gaza, 3 hours to distribute them.

While I was washing dishes this morning, I thought of an old favourite, "Bridge on the River Kwai" - and the carrot and stick approach (much overcivilised, for '50's moviegoers)of the camp commandant, in that soft-focus cameo of the Burma Railway atrocities.

"Be happy in your work" he exhorted, and ordered presents be distributed, from the covered back of a truck that on other occasions had revealed a machine gunner.

Sir Vivir,

You say >> “I have had firsthand experience of white phosphorus.”

Then you should know that dispersing WP at the heights indicated in the photos is FAR, FAR less dangerous than common garden variety HE artillery or mortar shells ( point detonating or airburst ) and not even in the same universe as using WP in a point detonating antipersonnel role. Secondly, it looked to me like it was possible that the smokescreen was being laid between the advancing Israelis and the built up area, and not in the town itself.

You say >> “The smokescreen would be as confusing for IDF troops as for Hamas insurgents, unless the IDF troops use Gazan civilians as human shields …”

This is not the case at all. The most likely use of a smokescreen is to shield from sight an advance or retreat over open ground. This is another reason which leads me to believe that the WP was being detonated outside the town. I may be wrong, if you have evidence otherwise I would like to see it. But your apparent willingness to believe the absolute worst is disturbing, and I believe entirely unwarranted.

You say >> “If the IDF targets a “smart" weapon at a civilian refuge such as a UN school, the target controller done something cruel, stupid and criminal”

You are referring to the UN school where 40 people were killed. This is truly tragic incident and should be investigated. In my opinion though, Israel is only guilty of a war crime if they knew that there was no-one firing mortars from the school; or they were deliberately trying to kill the civilians. If Hamas were firing mortars from the school, using the cover of the civilians and the UN, then Hamas are culpable. The cartoon in the Australian newspaper captures the moral vacuum in which Hamas operate. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/gallery/0,26637,5024287-20581,00.html#

As someone who has some understanding of military matters, you would know that a mortar battery with a well placed spotter can do a lot of damage to infantry in an open area.

TBC

CONT’

Israel cannot afford to allow a free fire period on Israeli troops, merely because there are civilians nearby the mortar firing position. They must rely on the accuracy of their weapons to spare any civilian deaths. Unfortunately this is not a failsafe guarantee.

I know that the Head of the UN school denied there were militants firing mortars from the school compound, but accepted that he might be wrong. I sincerely doubt Hamas would have liaised with the Head Master if they were going to use his compound and the civillians in it as a human shield.

You say >> “if collaborators are reliably assisting the IDF with targeting, why are these valuable intelligence assets not better used by Israel to build more directly toward peace …”

How? I’m not sure what you are getting at?

You say >> “… you evidently have no grasp of how very cruel and stupid the Israeli government currently looks to many …”

Sir Vivor, I am fully aware than many people feel that way. Many people feel the way I do as well. There is no doubt this is a polarising issue, and the letters to the editors page shows this every day. The citizens in bomb shelters in Israel no doubt have little love for Hamas and consider them cruel and stupid. However as a thinking person, I have no interest in the popularity of one view over another. It is entirely irrelevant. What is right is right no matter how many people agree.

You say >> “What, in your opinion, is Israel’s goal in Gaza?”

I’m glad you asked. I think Israel is trying to prevent Hamas from being able to fire rockets into Israel. At this point my understanding is that the IDF have bisected the Gaza Strip, preventing the rockets smuggled over the border from reaching their northern launch sites. I think they are probably also trying to destroy weapons caches, border tunnels, kill Hamas leaders and reduce the standing strength of Hamas’ military wing.

What, in your opinion, is Israel’s goal in Gaza?”

Paul L, you say, regarding goals:
"I think Israel is trying to prevent Hamas from being able to fire rockets into Israel. At this point, my understanding is that the IDF have bisected the Gaza Strip, preventing the rockets smuggled over the border from reaching their northern launch sites. I think they are probably also trying to destroy weapons caches, border tunnels, kill Hamas leaders and reduce the standing strength of Hamas’ military wing."

You have named military objectives. My concern is political goals.

You mention the IDF objective of bisecting the Gaza Strip. I wonder why that was not done at the outset? Given the sparseness of population, the added open space and the relative lack of infrastructure in the middle of the Gaza Strip, not to mention the vast superiority of IDF power, a broad DMZ is relatively easily established, and defended against inaccurate rocket fire and other attacks from Hamas’ under-resourced army.

Why wait until Gaza City is pulverised and so many of its civilians murdered, or maimed and terrorised?

My goal would be a mediated settlement between Palestinian and Israeli governments that is supported by both the Palestinian and Israeli people, and includes mutually acceptable and enforceable measures to deal with injustices on both sides.

The United States Senate is right now considering a bill which, among other things,
" ...reiterates its strong support for United
States Government efforts to promote a just resolution
of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict through a serious
and sustained peace process that leads to the
creation of a viable and independent Palestinian
state living in peace alongside a secure State of Israel."

http://aipac.org/Publications/SourceMaterialsCongressionalAction/SenateRes.pdf

The US track record on Israel and Palestine is not encouraging, but given the upcoming change of administration, I must give them the benefit of the doubt.

Supposedly, Israel is committed to a political goal of a viable two-state solution. Do you suppose that at this time next year, we will have reached a milestone worthy of the name, toward this destination?

Postscript

Seems as though no-one has any more to say, but we are none the wiser about Israel’s goal - and not much edified concerning its military objectives, beyond reading of the ongoing IDF IHR blunders and working overtime on charitable (or blaming) explanations.

I believe it’s worth citing the final paragraphs of an opinion piece dated 9-I-09, by Anthony Cordesman, of the US-based Center for Strategic and International Studies:
http://www.csis.org/index.php?option=com_csis_pubs&task=view&id=5188

“Has Israel somehow blundered into a steadily escalating war without a clear strategic goal or at least one it can credibly achieve? Will Israel end in empowering an enemy in political terms that it defeated in tactical terms? Will Israel’s actions seriously damage the US position in the region, any hope of peace, as well as moderate Arab regimes and voices in the process?

To blunt, the answer so far seems to be yes. To paraphrase a comment about the British government’s management of the British Army in World War I, lions seem to be led by donkeys. If Israel has a credible ceasefire plan that could really secure Gaza, it is not apparent. If Israel has a plan that could credibly destroy and replace Hamas, it is not apparent. If Israel has any plan to help the Gazans and move them back towards peace, it is not apparent. If Israel has any plan to use US or other friendly influence productively, it not apparent.

As we have seen all too clearly from US mistakes, any leader can take a tough stand and claim that tactical gains are a meaningful victory. If this is all that Olmert, Livni, and Barak have for an answer, then they have disgraced themselves and damaged their country and their friends. If there is more, it is time to make such goals public and demonstrate how they can be achieved. The question is not whether the IDF learned the tactical lessons of the fighting in 2006. It is whether Israel's top political leadership has even minimal competence to lead them.”