Hi again, Paul L, Thank you for your reply.

I don’t expect you to agree with my views, but it’s important to remember that many of my concerns are shared by a broad spectrum of observers of current events in Gaza.

The degree to which the people of Hamas support the Hamas Charter strikes both of us as extreme, but Hamas is a democratically elected government, whatever its platform. While the Hamas government is legitimate, its actions may not be: for example, official or unofficial involvement in indiscriminate attacks on civilians in Israeli territory.

As to your evident despair about partners in peace: cynicism, despair, grief and hatred provide a fertile field for war profiteers who are often extremists of their own religious stripe, or else comfortably faithless, cynical and defeatist.

It is up to individuals to decide how they will respond to events, and to what degree. You may not personally believe in a doctrine of proportional response, but I believe it is a recognized principle of international law.

The ordnance that concerns me is pictured at:
http://www.linkezeitung.de/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5931&Itemid=61

An mgm.org activist has identified it as a white phosphorus shell. The picture as well as repeated and varied similar televised instances all show this weapon being used in populated areas. Seems to me like incendiary weapons are being used by the Israeli military, in indiscriminate attacks.

You remark:
”Hamas and Israel are fighting in GAZA. Did you notice on your map that there are no settlements in Gaza?”

There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza, but Google Maps shows Jibalaya Refugee camp to be about 5 km NNE of Gaza, in the Gaza Strip. The area including Gaza and Jibalaya looks to me to be densely populated and at risk of indiscriminate air attack.

Do you expect the IDF will be helpful in identifying unexploded ordnance, wherever it may be in the Gaza Strip, after this attack? I must give them the benefit of the doubt.

An afterthought for Paul L.

Several issues I did not revisit, in your post. The Israeli representative to the UN who appeared on the 7PM news here in Hobart. Her position seemed indistinguishable from yours. You may both say what you like about rockets from Gaza all being the direct responsibility of Hamas, but it is an unrealistic position, and an unforgiving one. Demanding 100% cease is in my humble opinion, very foolish and frankly, provocative.

As for comparing Gaza to attacks on Lidice, the Warsaw Ghetto and Guernica: circumstances in each case were different, but they were in each case cruel, stupid, grossly disproportionate and indiscriminate. Every one led to world outrage and commitment to fight the evil which brought death and sorrow to innocent people. The aggressors, of course, did not recognise their targets as innocent.

It is not the ordinary people of Israel who are evil, any more or less than it was the ordinary people of Germany. Both nations can be seen as having been painted into a corner by greater influences.

Citizens are obliged to obey the laws of their government. If there is a war on, then ordinary men and women may become serial killers, and when the war is over, they can go home to their families and get on with their lives as best they can. If their country loses, their leaders and certain other key figures may be tried for war crimes.

A current report from Gaza:
http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/

"My father went on to describe accounts of Palestinians being used as human shields-by the Israelis. The Israeli military has been forcing families out of their homes and making them scope out buildings and rooms for the army to enter and for their snipers to nest in. It is a practice they have used before ... Btselem has said that "Israeli soldiers routinely used Palestinian civilians as human shields by forcing them to carry out life-threatening military tasks", despite an Israeli High Court Order prohibiting the practice."

Paul L, I expect we shall have to agree to disagree

Sir Vivor,

You say >> “I don’t expect you to agree with my views, but it’s important to remember that many of my concerns are shared by a broad spectrum of observers of current events in Gaza

Likewise it is important to remember that many of my concerns are shared by a broad spectrum of observers. Our Prime Minister and our national broadsheet broadly concur with my position.

Regarding the nations which have come out and criticised Israels actions, you should keep in mind that there are very few countries where political concerns do not dominate the response to this conflict. In the vast majority of cases, politicians are obliged to take a pro Palestinian position, or commit electoral suicide. The UN is unfortunately afflicted with the same bias.

You say >> “ but Hamas is a democratically elected government, whatever its platform”

I am not denying that Hamas is a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. But that should not insulate it from responsibilty for its words and actions.

You say >> “As to your evident despair about partners in peace: cynicism, despair, grief and hatred provide a fertile field”

This is a misrepresentation of my position. I am not despondent, or in grief. I legitimately believe, with good reason, that Hamas is not interested in a negotiated settlement. I believe they are following a strategy which they hope will deliver total victory. Thus they are totally opposed to a negotiated settlement.

I believe proportional response has a role when the potential for real negotiation is still on the table. Furthermore I don’t believe that Israel is justified in just NUKING Gaza. So in some sense I believe in proportional response. But the proportional part is very difficult. For example, is the number of casualties inflicted the proportional part? In which case Israel should be allowed five rockets in return for Hamas’ hundreds because Hamas's gunners are inept.

TBC

CONT'

You say >> “ … identified it as a white phosphorus shell. .. this weapon [is] being used in populated areas “
.
I can understand how this might seem incredible to you. The subtext you have missed is that WP, when it is exploded high in the air like it was, is used as smoke. This is very different from setting a WP shell to explode on contact. This latter tactic is rather unpleasant, and definitely has no place in a built up area. But when it is exploded high in the air, or in front of the enemy, its primary result is a harmless smokescreen. In the air, the white phosphorus rapidly converts to smoke and the very nasty burns, which are the result of skin contact with WP, are highly unlikely. The smoke itself is not a weapon.

>> “Weight-for-weight, phosphorus is the most effective smoke-screening agent known, for two reasons: first, it absorbs most of the screening mass from the surrounding atmosphere and secondly, the smoke particles are an aerosol, a mist of liquid droplets which are close to the ideal range of sizes for Mie scattering of visible light. This effect has been likened to three dimensional textured privacy glass—the smoke cloud does not simply obstruct an image, but thoroughly scrambles both visual and infrared radiation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_(weapon)
You say >> “The area including Gaza and Jibalaya looks to me to be densely populated and at risk of indiscriminate air attack.

I don’t think you will find much evidence of indiscriminate air attack by the Israelis. Their weapons are very accurate as is their intelligence. Indeed 100’s of Palestinians have been killed as collaborators for giving the Israelis targeting information.

You say >> Do you expect the IDF will be helpful in identifying unexploded ordnance, wherever it may be in the Gaza Strip, after this attack?

Surely you jest. Any unexploded ordinace ( and there won’t be much as the Israelis are neither carpet bombing, nor mine laying) will be rapidly recycled by Hamas etc as improvised explosive devices, AKA IED's.

Paul L:

Regarding white phosphorus as an indiscriminate weapon, you say:
"The subtext you have missed is that WP, when it is exploded high in the air like it was, is used as smoke. ... The smoke itself is not a weapon."

Paul, Both my father and I have had firsthand experience of white phosphorus. I don’t think I have missed any subtext here.

What strategic function does white phosphorus fulfil, released as documented? It must reach the ground and burn where it lands, before it can provide an effective smokescreen at ground level.

At ground level, it may indiscriminately start fires and may also burn civilians directly. The smokescreen would be as confusing for IDF troops as for Hamas insurgents, unless the IDF troops use Gazan civilians as human shields, and shoot at anything else that moves.

You say:
"I don’t think you will find much evidence of indiscriminate air attack by the Israelis. ... 100’s of Palestinians have been killed as collaborators for giving the Israelis targeting information."

Accurate targeting is not at issue. If the IDF targets a “smart" weapon at a civilian refuge such as a UN school, the target controller done something cruel, stupid and criminal, just like the soldiers who locked townspeople in a barn in Lidice, and torched the barn.

Soldiers have limited discretion, but the soldier who attacks civilians is guilty of a war crime.

Collaborators providing targets may be settling personal grudges or acting as provocateurs. And, if collaborators are reliably assisting the IDF with targeting, why are these valuable intelligence assets not better used by Israel, in better times, to build more directly toward peace, stability and prosperity for Palestinians?

Paul, you evidently have no grasp of how very cruel and stupid the Israeli government currently looks to many, many millions of people in the rest of the world, not to mention the civilians in Gaza. Whatever the Israeli goal in Gaza, it is coming at grossly disproportionate human cost to all parties.

What, in your opinion, is Israel’s goal in Gaza?

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/world-silence-as-gaza-bleeds/

the level of inhumanity and devastation..a quote from the Talmud,

“Who can protest an injustice but does not..is an accomplice to the act”

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/the-real-reason-behind-israels-blitzkrieg-on-gaza/

It has nothing to do with Hamas..nothing to do with rocket attacks in Southern Israel..the truth is,it’s all about scoring points(and votes)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/red-cross-slams-israel-over-access-to-wounded-1232472.html

Red Cross accuses Israeli forces today of failing to assist wounded Palestinians and of "unacceptable" delays..four small children were found alive next to their mothers bodies.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/vatican-official-gaza-is-now-a-concentration-camp.html
THE Gaza Strip turned into a“concentration camp”,senior Vatican official.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/doctor-decries-israels-use-of-illegal-weapons-in-assault-on-gaza.html

Israel is using white phosphorous on areas populated by civilians..a direct violation of the 1980 Geneva Treaty which forbids such weapons on civilian populations.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/gaza-victims-burns-increase-concern-over-phosphorus.html

Photographic evidence..Israel has been using controversial white phosphorus shells,despite official denials by the Israel Defence Forces.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/red-cross-israel-leaves-wounded-to-die.html

Red Cross demands immediate access into Gaza from Israel,after its aid workers run into’shocking scenes’of weak children and dead mothers.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/what-kind-of-security-will-this-barbarism-bring-israel.html

Israel has killed and wounded almost four thousand men,women and children..it has entombed whole families together in the ruins of their homes.All this to make Israelis feel secure?..What security is this kind of barbarism ever likely to gain them?

http://www.prisonplanet.com/gaza-catastrophe-resource-conflict.html

a flagrant breach of the six-months ceasefire.the objective of the military operation is limited by the aim of putting an end to the rocket-fire.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/59250.html

Israeli soldiers opened fire Thursday on a truck attempting to deliver humanitarian aid to the beleaguered Gaza Strip,killing one United Nations-contracted driver and seriously wounding another,

The shooting occurred at the Erez checkpoint,the Israeli military had approved the delivery.

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/live-from-gaza-day-12-of-the-israeli-blitzkrieg/

This is very risky since shells rain down and drones hover over me!I will keep this up.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/time-to-tell-the-truth-about-israel-without-fear-of-the-mind-police.html

State-of-the art Israeli jets, paid for by the United States, bomb civilian targets in this tragic, poverty-stricken wasteland which acts as a holding camp for the human beings the Israeli government would rather be dead.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-destroys-over-20-houses-in-gaza.html

Israel’s perpetual aerial bombardment of the Gaza Strip has reduced more than 20 houses to rubble in the southern town of Rafah.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/anti-israeli-protests-continue-globally.html

The Israeli incursions into Gaza have triggered protests all over the world with demonstrators calling for an immediate ceasefire