Polyc**p, as much as I like reasonably priced pottery I cannot see your point.

Having looked at Romans 9 I am no clearer than I was before as to whether you have considered the Epicurian conundrum or not.

You appear to be simply saying "I don't need to consider it because I have this big book which I am led to believe is 100% factual and completely infallible, just a little vague on scientifically tested detail, proofs etc. ... OK, OK, I am taking it all on faith ... so the idea of Epicurus' conundrum is something I CANNOT contemplate because to do so would in effect create a logical short circuit for me that I can only resolve by ignoring the rationality of Epicurus' arguments altogether and hanging on for dear life to this big book of stories."

Don't get me wrong, I think there is allegorical value in most big books including the one you (apparently) use to guide your life, though not enough to justify putting one in every hotel room in the world.

Humble secular blessings back at you.

Oh, and runner, you just sound like a bit of a gay-hating bigot to me.

I have no doubt at all that greed, corruption and the unsustainability of the ethos of economic rationality all played a part in the current economic crisis. Also true; it is not the moderate religious to blame, it is always the extremists of any ideology. However to galvanise many people, there is nothing like religion and particularly the pentecostal sects:

In Australia, Hillsong promotes the idea of "prosperity gospel", however it's impact is small in comparison to the influence of this "gospel" in the USA.

Time Magazine quotes its own poll numbers on prosperity gospel:

"17 percent of Christians surveyed said they considered themselves part of such a movement (prosperity gospel), while a full 61 percent believed that God wants people to be prosperous. And 31 percent—a far higher percentage than there are Pentecostals in America—agreed that if you give your money to God, God will bless you with more money. … Of the four biggest megachurches in the country, three—Joel Osteen's Lakewood in Houston; T.D. Jakes' Potter's House in south Dallas; and Creflo Dollar's World Changers near Atlanta—are Prosperity or Prosperity Lite pulpits."

While most mainstream Christians decry the "prosperity gospel", this offshoot from the old style TV evangelism have had significant influence in both the Republican party and on Wall Street. George W Bush was placed in office by the financial support of the Pentecostal church.

That it is not the only cause of the Wall Street meltdown is true. However to claim that religion has absolutely no influence on politics or finance is simply absurd

tebbutt

I would not have the arrogance or stupidity to question our Creator in the way Epicurus did. When you understand how small you are and how big the universe is and how much bigger the Creator is you really are not in a position to tell Him how to run things or question His credibility. You and Epicurean certainly share in general, a self righteousness that blinds you from seeing the need of a Saviour. As I mentioned in a previous post the psalmist rightly says that a fool says in his heart there is no god. You ought to be very happy that God does not deal with evil immediately. You would not be alive today if that was the case.
Sorry to tell you I ain't the least bit bitter. In actual fact I enjoy life immensely.

tebbut

When Chris Higgins debates he has next to him a mug of beer. Quite often he is in a drunken stupor. However, he makes a lot sense to his fans because he is speaking a load of nonsense.

For example in quoting Epicurus "Is he [God] willing to prevent evil but not able? Then is he impotent.”, he and many of his fans have assumed that there is ‘evil’ and ‘good’ in this world. But this is pure nonsense because there is no such thing as ‘good’ or ‘evil’; what we have are only belief systems. ‘Good’ and ‘evil’ are subjective concepts.

The Bali bombers are not evil because they have killed over 200 people. They acted consistently with their belief-system. Some may think jiahdists are evil to do this, but your ‘evil’ is their ‘good.’ There are no absolutes because this world and all contained therein came into being by chance. The strong ones survive and through a process of natural selection and adaptation the weaker ones are weeded out.

Therefore, Hitler was not evil when he killed millions of Jews and disabled persons because he believed in the evolution of the superior Aryan race. His belief system is consistent with the central tenet of evolution; survival of the fittest through a process of natural selection and adaptation. The same can be argued for Stalin and Mao who put millions to death for the sake of a better and healthier homosapien species.

That is why we atheists should not bat an eye-lid when lesbians and homosexuals are executed in Islamic countries because such lifestyle is not able to produce off-springs through the natural process --the survival of homosapiens is called into question. The Islamists may do it for a very different reason but the result is still the same.

i see the m ass delusion debate about religion continues [despite the heading being mass delusions AND THEIR CONsequence]

but i will add yet another DELUSION
[that of global warning or is it global COOLing?

regardless of the scientist expecting to clean up with carbon funding, or the awards and favour of their masters [big buisness ,bankers]will bestow upon them ,if they deliver this new GLOBAL tax gift

think of it the same way big buisness did,
they simply did a bad burn during their base measurement period
[the equivelent to running your car on full choke to get the highest reading possable]

then after you get the tax [they get the credit
then they go back to normal running
[and sell the extra carbon credits to the bank
[or get loans on the credit]

we are talking about a new CREDIT[ie money]
and a new tax,

designed purely to boost big buisness income and their own bonus

carbon credit should flow to people then to buisnes

but is it Global warming
or COOLING

climate change is a buzz word

govt MUST say warming OR cooling
[then define who pays what ,to go to who ,to do what]

either way the world gets a new TAX
either way its us who pay extra from our fast depleting credit

it is a huge underwriting of bigbuisness ON top of our consuming
[and we get no pay increase,
nor tax reduction

[yet big buisness can apply for OUR funds
[and hundreds can claim egsemption

because they have the lawyers
that could prove this NEW delusion [neo tax] is unconstitutional

and govt dont want them to do that so exgsemptions all round
who's delusion?

Philip Tang, could not agree with you less.

You sound like someone who lacks basic human empathy, that is a pathological affliction too, just like religious fundamentalism.

I reject both positions.

As for Runner, you display all the venomous anger that I would exect from a fundamentalist. If that makes you happy mores the pity.

Perhaps you and Philip Tang should exhange email adresses?

Don't live in fear and don't foster hate.