No doubt after reading these posts any thinking person can only conclude that the fundamentalist atheist (or hard line secularist) are the deluded ones. Just look at the fruit of their dogmas (hate, murder, immorality, homosexuality, lies, drug usage, environmental destruction, greed etc). No wonder many of them that claim to hold to these dogmas send their children to private schools. What hypocrisy!

Crikey Runner, you do sound a little bitter if you don't mind me saying so. "Thinking" people are (in my humble view) people who are prepared to think, not people who just take "as read" the word of someone with no substantive proof to back up their position.

Would you (or your cohorts, like Polyc**p?) care to consider my quote from Epicurus and tell me if you can see a way around it?

There is no need to live in fear my friend, life is far too short to waste time fearing a vengeful diety. If (like Richard Dawkins) you are rational enough to admit you are a sceptic on these matters you can actually relieve yourself of the need to fear death (which is after all the great driver of monetheistic faiths) and get on with living your life, still doing good deeds - being "of faith" is not a pre-requisite for being a good person - and making the world a better place than it was when you arrived.

Don't let fear of death rule your life Runner.

DavoP,

Thank you for your observations highlighting the flaw in my expression > “I defy you ”< It should have read “I challenge you”
It was intended to make those who think they have “THE unconditional answer really examine what they’re saying.”
Your response ASSUMES a causal link; there are no conclusive facts to support that.
Some of the greatest Scientists, Humanitarians etc believe in or driven by a belief in higher power.

Can I suggest that many readers scan my responses and react.

You and HI both missed one of my seminal points. Expanded in related topic post. “Not every one has your genetic, emotional, intellectual capacities or upbringing”. Neither You nor I are the base standard by which to judge others e.g.
• I have a daughter now 30 who despite talent, a great I. Q. has the aggressive form of MS whose prognosis is 24 hr care in a home by 40s and unlikely to see 50. She dreams of her sole mate, children, is a vegetarian and uses complementary medicines. She believes in a future. Do I destroy her “delusion”.
• My widowed 84 YO mum, still active, for the 1st time in her life has financial adequacy and a home. She’s had a tough life (trust me). She believes in her church and that they regard her as an elder…everyone’s granny. The truth is some what more speckled. Do I destroy her “delusion”? For what? Their ‘delusions’ get them up in the morning. I can't see how imposing atheism on them would improve their lives .

I suggest we ALL have delusions of varing length/strength. Ultimately the defining factor of delusions is its intrinsic potential for harm to others. Who are my rellies harming?

Objectively Religion isn’t INTRINSICALLY bad it is what SOME people do with it.

Likewise the financial crisis isn’t due to religion it is down to people who either just happen to have extremist views or (most probably) manipulate (profit from) the lesser capable. AFL, NRL, Grand Prix etc do exactly the same thing.

"hate, murder, immorality, homosexuality, lies, drug usage, environmental destruction, greed etc" are the sole province of secularists, according to Runner.

Such superior, suffocating, sanctimonious self-righteousness is what gives religionists a bad name

Tebutt or not tebutt...that is the question :)

I think I'll BUTT (like a ram with big horns aaarggghh snarrllll)
or is it baaaaaaaa. with a macho edge to it?

"Is he willing to prevent evil but not able? Then is he impotent.
Is he able but not willing? Then is he malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?"

Butthead... ( well.. you give and you take right? :)

Ok..*slap* in serious mode now.. (really)

This question or series of them is not unknown to Christians.
In fact it is probably the same set of mental emotional challenges which go through the mind of every would be believer as they struggle with the nature of the Almighty.

Paul the Apostle was also confronted with this dilemna...but the problem for the person seeking to undersand it all is their limited frame of reference.

Rather than repeat it all, I recommend you read Romans 9

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&version=31

For Paul and for every settled believer.. "God is sovereign" it is never a matter of "If....then" from a limited human perspective.
Consider this.... how in the world could we ever enter into the mind of our Creator with our puny minds? Not a chance. If he created all that is.. I suggest there are pieces of the puzzle which we not only do not have but could not absorb if we did.

This.. we are left, by his providence with:

a) The intellect to ask the questions.
b) Not enough to comprehend the answers.

As Paul said

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Well... you can ponder all this, humbly I hope.. and contemplate your position in regard to Him.
blessings

“Ludwig turns his blind eye, yet again.”

Davo, what the….??

C’mawwn, put a bit of substance into it. Don’t just make completely hollow comments!