itchyvet and Marilyn

Hitler was not the reason for the creation of Israel. That started in the 19th century with Jews from Algeria, Morocco Lebanon Russia Turkey and elsewhere moving into a land which was mainly desert. The Middle Eastern Jews who went there were sick and tired of being treated as Dhimies, ie second class citizens. There were also Jews whose families had never left their ancient homeland.

During the British mandate the Jewish homeland was promised by several members of the Parliament including Winston Churchill. Long before the war. Holocaust survivors are less than half of Israel's population, the majority are Jews, Christians, Baha'i, Druze from Islamic lands escaping fundamentalist Islamization (ethnic cleansing) in Islamic republics. These persecuted groups were in the Middle East thousands of years before the birth of Mohamed.

A large section of so called Palestinians are really immigrants from other Arab countries who moved in when the Jews introduced modern farming and the deserts started to bloom. That they regard themselves as Palestinians is because the UN has a special definition of refugee for them, one which is other than that used for all others. That is the influence of oil.

Israel is tiny and indeed was the lowest quality land when the Jews arrived, but it was all they could get and at inflated prices.

Marilyn, would you be happier if the displaced Christians, Jews and Druze etc trained their kids as suicide murderers and killed the people who forced them out of their traditional home lands in the Middle East? What a blood bath we could have had if the Jews in Jerusalem had treated the minority Muslim population the same way that they had or Christians had acted in a similar fashion Bethlehem and Lebanon. The Islamic fanatics wanted a pure Islamic population according to their interpretation of the Koran. Just to mention three areas which had majority Christian or Jewish populations.

Logic,
I'm 58 years of age, a Vietnam veteran, with strong European back ground,and have, (unlike many of my fellow Australians, actually lived overseas for extended periods) the last thing I need in my life, is a zionist trying to baffle my brain with his propoganda, I've heard it all, and NONE of it holds any water whatever.
It's wasted totaly on me, do yourself a favour and try it on the youth of today,though I strongly suspect,you wont have much luck there either. The youth of today are not as gullible these days as they were in my youth, they also have the instant media and internet at their finger tips, thus can access info direct from the source.
Something no doubt, the powers that be in Israel and the U.S. are not too pleased about at all, thus the attack on the internet.But, that's another subject.
People judge others by their actions, and Israels' actions simply are beyone the pale these days,as World opinion is very clearly beginning to show.
I'd respectfully suggest, if you wish to once again gain World support,Israel's Govt is going to have to make a hell of a lot of changes, though how they will ever hope to gain the TRUST of others once more, is beyond me.

Marilyn Shepherd wrote:

"For pete's sake will you people get over all this biblical nonsense. The bible is a series of parables, it is not real.

The Zionist movement was not a consequence of a belief in the Bible on the part of Jews.

Zionism did not start out as a religious movement but a secular movement opposed by most of the rabbis. Herzl felt that Jews needed a homeland after he observed the Dreyfus trial in France, was bothered by the oppression of Jews in Russia and started the Zionist movement although there had been some previous sentiment for it. The doors were closed to Jewish immigration in many places.

Read "Bible and Sword" for the history of English involvement. England supported a Jewish homeland or state in Palestine for three reasons:

1. They wanted a population in the Middle East near Suez friendly to England
2. There was an influx of Jews fleeing eastern Europe. The English preferred that they go to Palestine rather than come to England.
3. Christian belief in the Bible.

The early Zionist movement for the most part wanted peaceful relations with the Arabs. There were exceptions such as Jabotinsky. After WW2 if the survivors of the Holocaust had been able to emigrate freely to the western countries there would be no Israel. The bars were up. The survivors could not go home for the most part because their property and land had been taken, and they could not get it back.

When Israel was founded it was thought that the Orthodox would decline in numbers. However, they haven't. As a consequence Zionism has become more religious, but it still is primarily a secular movement.

Current Christian Zionist support for Israel is Bible based, but some ultra Orthodox groups such as the Satmar and Neturei Karta are very anti-Zionist.

In 1948 a number of Arabs fled or were forced out of what is now Israel. Afterwards a similar number of Jews were forced out of the Arab countries. The Arabs were placed in refugee camps. The Jews were accepted as Israeli citizens.

Itchyvet,

Israel is fighting implacable enemies who will go to ANY lengths to visit death and destruction upon Israel and the Israeli people. It is a fact that Palestinian children are taught that martyrdom is the most important thing they can do with their life. It is a fact that almost every day rockets are fired into Israel from the Gaza strip. The same Gaza strip that Israel unilaterally withdrew from. But instead of using the Gaza as the beginning of a Palestinian state, Hamas have turned it into an FOB.

Israel’s “behaviour” in terms of the Geneva convention and the laws of war, has been as good, if not better, than Free world forces in Vietnam. And Israel is fighting for its existence. It is surrounded by State sponsors of terrorism who are committed to Israel’s destruction. Certainly Israel’s actions do not compare with the behaviour of its enemies, like Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and Hamas. These head hackers and human bombs target civilians almost exclusively.

What kind of men hind behind their women and children to fight, anyway? I lay most of the blame for the civilian casualties Israel inflicts during its targeted assassinations on the insurgents themselves. They shouldn’t ever be travelling with their families or hiding out in densely populated areas.

You say>> ” Israels' actions simply are beyond the pale these days, as World opinion is very clearly beginning to show.”

When you talk of world opinion/support, who are you referring to? Israel has the support of virtually all the western democracies. This was evidenced by the reaction to Israel’s 60th anniversary.

Where Israel has lost support, it is mainly among the leftist groups. I see this as insignificant as those groups, like lounge chairs, bear the imprint of the last person to sit on them. PC attitudes regarding a whole host of issues will change like the fads that most of them are.

BTW Israel fought the combined Arab armies ( who were armed and supported by the Russians) three times and won. They are not going to collapse any time soon.

itchyvet

I am 66 years of age am roughly fourth generation Australian and have lived overseas in Europe and can converse in four languages. You are not so special.

You dismiss anything which supports Israel as propaganda, even when it comes from sources which are not even Jewish. You dismiss anything which points to the evils of Islamism, I bet you didn't even bother to read my link by Brigitte Gabriel. Like the foolish Nazi appeasers before WW2 you will probably ignore it but here is the link once again.

http://www.navyseals.com/brigitte-gabriels-speech-delivered-intelligence-summit-washington-dc

I was born in a land which lacked any antisemitism, for me Europe was an eye opener. The minds of central Europeans in particular are filled with ethnic hatreds the like of which I had not experienced. And of course Jews were a popular target, none of it based on fact or the remotest knowledge of the Jewish faith.

It is no wonder then that European newspapers are filled with distortions about Israel by naive left wing journalists and many Australian papers just copy their script. James Murdock has commented on this, he is in a position to know. Also Palestinians have been good at presenting themselves as victims when they receive enormous sums in aid. Look at Daniel Pipes blog, he is not Jewish, but an experienced journalist with an expert knowledge on the Middle East. Have you done that?

What disturbs me most about you is your willingness to accept anti-Israel propaganda and your instant dismissal of anything that covers Israel's problems. Can you tell us why.

Oh dear oh dear,

have you lot noticed how Israel is suddenly interested in making a peace treaty with Syria?

Like to tell me why?

I reckon 'ole George has at last realised the Israelis are a suicidal bunch of f...heads. I reckon he's seen how Hezbollah's influence has increased in Lebanon and that country has astonishingly genuinely started on a path to peace and living in harmony since the latest Israeli agression and madness. I reckon the Lebanese see the only way to get rid of the Israeli meddling is to unite and really p..s them off.

Israel has also failed misderably to divide Hamas and the Palestinians, defeat Hamas or carry out a genocide in Gaza. I reckon everyone sees that. And negotiations will start with Hamas. That will be forced on Israel by a p...ed of US.

Just bloody watch the next few months before all you idiot Israel apologists who hate peace and equity start yelling me down.

I reckon 'ole George has seen the economic writing on the wall. A massive worldwide recession is coming and there ain't gonna be no spare money for propping up Israel.

I reckon 'ole George has seen the Younger Assad has finally wrested control from the old hardline Syrians. I reckon YA and all Syrians are watching what's going on in Iraq. And so are the Fundi's in Iran. I think it's scaring all them dictators and fundi's (including Boaz-David and his dictatorial Lukid and the Israeli fundis) 's...less'.