The article contained:

"We talked about these issues and others with Hassan Jabarin, the Director of Adalah, The Legal Centre for Minority Rights in Israel. He told us that Arab schools receive only half the government budget per capita that Jewish schools receive. Most of the Negev Bedouin population live in shameful conditions of poverty and deprivation."

Arab children and Jewish children in general go to separate schools. They grow up separated and can be expected to regard those not of their community as the OTHER. That would still be so even if funding per capita would be equal. The US Supreme Court decreed that segregation is inherently unequal in Brown vs. Kansas Board of Education.

There is a lesson for Australia in this. The policy of public aid to sectarian schools helps create both a separation of Australians on religious lines and a two tier system of eduction where a higher proportion of children from sectarian schools than from public schools go on to tertiary education.

Government funding must address all the shortages in public schools, and funding to sectarian schools should be curtailed drastically or eliminated. The cost for those who wished to send their children to sectarian schools should be met by themselves or their faith community.

The article contained:

"In its Declaration of Independence, Israel promised “complete equality of social and political rights” to all its citizens. With regards to its Arab citizens, 20 per cent of the population, this is demonstrably not the case. Whether racist chanting at football matches or restrictions imposed on Arabs wishing to purchase property, they have ample reason to feel that they are the victims of discrimination."

Governments should treat all citizens equally under the law. Restrictions imposed on Arabs wishing to purchase property can be removed by law. Racist chanting at football matches is deplorable but not a matter for legislation except to encourage education to eliminate prejudice.

“Complete equality of social and political rights” can be established by law. Prejudice is another matter and can be addressed by education. Integrated schooling and elimination or curtailing of taxpayer funding for sectarian schools would improve matters in Australia and Israel

Lets clarify something immediately.

The article said:

"Then came the 1967 war and its aftermath"

REALITY. "Then came the SIMULTANEOUS MULTI NATIONAL ARAB/MUSLIM INVASION..which Israel managed to repell by the skin of it's teeth, and beCAUSE of that invasion being launched from specific territory, said territory was ANNEXED... or at least occupied, and with good reason.

The ONLY people to ask about 'Is it ok to occupy territory in this way' are those who'se head would be sliced and diced if they had lost that battle.

Personally, I don't care ONE HOOT for the debacle which is called the "U".N.... where the only unity is by nation states and devient lobby groups seeking more advantage for 'their mob'.

Don't bother trying to justify criticism of Israel based on any rubbish that the UN trots out.. remember:

"When the UN speaks..who is 'really' talking"

HUMAN RIGHTS.. the most basic human right is safety and survival, neither of which Israel can enjoy if they don't take serious precautions.
Given that Palestinians have repeatedly claimed their wombs are their best weapon... anything restricting their progress is a rightful act of self defense. Sad...but true.

WE..from the comfort of our luxurious lounge rooms in our HOUSES on our STOLEN LAND.. are actually arrogant and self deceived enough to think we have something to say to Israel? notttt a chance.

When the activists show me that they can give their Aussie dream to an indigenous family for free, then 'survive' without government aid.. I might..just might feel they are walking the walk.

Until then, all the woffle about 'human rights' is in the 'moronic rambling' category.

BUT WAIT.. if they ALL (Israelis and Arabs) embraced the one faith which will make them new people with a common heart... aah.. problem solved.

David, screaming at us will not make it the truth. Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against all of her neighbours on 5 June 1967 and had disabled all of their air forces within 6 hours.

This news is so damn old now that it has grown whiskers.

Some of the lovely chaps you are so happy to continually defend had a good old fashioned book burning in Israel the other day. They rounded up the bibles of the evanglic nutjobs from all over the world and burnt them. Yep, those lovely chaps burnt the bibles.

Last week they sent the secret police out to bash a group of arab Israelis including two members of the Knesset, they tear gassed them and arrested them for the crime of attending their old village in Palestine.

Lovely chaps these Israelis. And the Australian media kowtows and bows down to them on a daily basis as Media Watch exposed on Monday night when the Herald bowed down to the Israeli lobby to spike the story of the murder of a Paletinian journalist that the whole world had already seen.

The world needs to stop pandering to the non-state of Israel. She is a rogue, one of the most violent places on earth and she has legalised torture, house demolitions, jailing of people without charge and even murder of those Shin Bet don't like.

So David, on the back of the bible burning by Orthodox jews you might want to ponder your slavish devotion to the barbarians.

BOAZ_David wrote:

"BUT WAIT.. if they ALL (Israelis and Arabs) embraced the one faith which will make them new people with a common heart... aah.. problem solved."

An absolutely horrible idea! The bad far outweighs the good in Christianity.

Christianity’s lamentable Middle East record includes Crusades, European imperialism and the invasion of Iraq where US troops were accompanied by 50 fundamentalist Christian groups according to Time Magazine.

Reverend Hagee endorsed McCain. Hagee’s Christians United for Israel (CUFI) supports the Israeli settler movement and finances relocation of Jews to settlements because God promised them Israel. CUFI called for the U.S. to attack Iran because Hagee sees war with Iran as a prelude to Armageddon.” Many Jews reject CUFI’s support as they realise it means continuation of a bloody conflict. McCain has finally rejected Hagee after becoming aware that Hagee referred to Hitler as a tool of God.

Neither Judaism nor Islam has a humanoid God embodying many attributes of the pagan deities, Osiris, Apollo and Attis, has an intermediary between God and humans, has split God into three parts or has separated individual salvation from a social gospel. Buddhism encourages questioning and reflection. Buddha advised others to question even his words. BOAZ_David, I have a suggestion. Sensible Christians who feel in need of religion should become Buddhists, Jews (Jesus' religion) or Muslims.

The Dark Ages began with the adoption of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire. The Darkness lifted when western Europeans looked back to the spirit of enquiry in the classical world and started to question Christian dogma.

With its virgin birth, original sin, internecine wars, Crusades, Inquisitions, imperialisms and the Holocaust carried out by Christians the evidence is that conversion to Christianity is a step backwards to a bloody past. Christianity in interfering with science teaching still tries to deny reason in favour of superstition.

Matthew 7:16 “Ye shall know them by their fruits." Christians taking those words seriously should leave Christianity.

Displacement of Christianity by Buddhism, Judaism and Islam would not solve all problems. However, it would be an improvement.

Marilyn,

And ranting and half truths will likewise generate heat but no light. Are you actually suggesting that Israel caused the 6 day war? In 1967 Egypt, Jordan and Syria massed troops on Israel's borders, expelled peace-keepers and blockaded the straits of Hormuz. For the period of known history the blockading of a countries' ports has been considered an act of war and casus-belli.

Israel’s behaviour, when held up against the standards of western countries who have known only peace in their homelands for close to 60 years, may not be exemplary. But considering that Israel has been pretty much at war for its whole history I believe Israel does a very good job at dispensing justice to its citizens in an even handed manner. I do not believe we would cope quite so well.

You talk about secret police bashings as if there were no Palestinians elements which were prone to confrontation in these situations. I refer to the numerous vicious bashing carried out by Hamas Police units on Gazans who support the PA.

The left needs to stop pandering to the nut jobs and head hackers of the Palestinians extremist groups. Once these groups are finished Israelis and Palestinians might have a chance at living together in peace. Have a read of the Hamas charter, Marilyn, and then try and tell me that the "administration" in Gaza is a reasonable and potential partner in any peace with the Israelis.

Israel is a state, no matter how much you soft-lefties want it to not be so. In fact it is the only democratic state in that region. I know you lefty's don’t have much time for democracy, but it is important to most NORMAL people. You refer to the Arab members of the Knesset. How many Jewish members are there of the Palestinian-Authority or Hamas?

Its just typical that the soft-left would support the religious-extremists and racists that make up Hamas and the Palestian authority. The soft left are the “peace-at-any-cost-brigade” and would gladly give away the freedom of others without-a-second-thought. But-they're-armchair-agitators-who-would be-screaming-for-blood-were-it-their-own-children cowering-under-metal-desks-due-to-the-daily-bombardment-by-extremists in-the-Gaza-strip. BTW-that’s-the-Gaza-strip-which-Israel-unilaterally-pulled-out-of, and-which-Hamas-has-used-as-a-forward-operating base-to-attack-Israel ever-since.

Paul, it simply did not happen as you rant on about. Israel attacked all her neighbours, they knew they were not going to be attacked but did it anyway. You really have to stop living in fantasy land.

If all these armies had been amassing to attack Israel it would have been impossible for Israel to dismantle and bomb to bits all of their airforces in a few hours and get away with it.

Israel is not a state, she has no borders and no constitution and saying you can be a state on someone else's land without their permission was never allowed and nor should it be.

Yes I wonder what jobs these armchair lefties actually do. Who pays for their dinner?

If they are allowed their way it might happen that they learn the truth about Islamist jihad in a suicide bomb. They don't have to fear Israeli jihad, that never happens, unless you actually believe in the fantastic hypothesis that 9/11 was conducted by Israel. But Australians have already died at Bali, of course they will blame that on Israel.

Fortunately these idiots have no currency amongst the Australian public or its leaders, perhaps the nicest thing would be to pity them.

Yes I am being nasty, but I am sick to death of these stupid rantings.

Marilyn

Do you have a Pentium inside your computer? That was developed in Israel. Do you have Windows XP? That was developed in Israel. There are dozens of life saving medical procedures that come from Israel. Israel supplies power to the Gaza strip. It does this even when its school children are fired at by hundreds of Gazan rockets.

Not bad for a non state. And like the UK and Canada it has no written constitution. Unlike Australia it was founded with large tracts of land legally owned by Jews, including those from ancient communities whose families had lived there since biblical times. Of course your extremist Islamist friends will tell you that the temple was built by Muslims some 1000 years before Mohamed actually lived.

Tell me one thing Marilyn where would you rather live? Israel, UK, Canada, Cuba or Saudi Arabia?

Also tell me this. The Baha'i and the Druze have found refuge in Israel. Do you want them to leave as well? They are also in the IDF.

LOGIC..welcome back :)

David F .. I almost had that same conversation with a lady at gym today..

She, like you, and many others on OLO, see 'Christianity' in the actions of the large Western nations which have a Judao/Christian religious tradition.

In all seriousness, I agree with you about the 'intrigue' embarked on by large nations, but it is not limited to just those you mentioned. It is universal. The Suez canal construction is illustrative.

1/ Ferdinand De Lesseps begins seeking permission to build the canal.
2/ Britain opposes this because of her maritime interests.
3/ The Ottoman sultan opposes it because it causes a barrier between him and his vassal..Egypt.

From those postures of 2 and 3, war could have broken out, and was threatened. In other words..what you described as the 'bad guys' (US Bush etc) was really a commentary on 'human nature' (of any political or social system)

To truly understand Christianity, you need to refer to the Gospels, and the writings of the New Testament. When you do this, you will see clearly that there is no concept of a 'Christian' State. There is only a kingdom of God, where Christ dwells in our hearts through faith, and moves us to do good, and proclaim the Gospel for the salvation of mankind. Christianity is about one thing.. 'reconciliation' between man and God.
All that you described, only became common after Constantine, 300 yrs after Christ. This is where politicians and emperors seek to use the faith for their own material ends.

I urge you to read the Gospel of Luke for a good detailed account of Christ's life and mission. Then, Acts to see the young Church developed in a hostile environment.

Dear Boaz_David,

Your suggestion that Muslims and Jews convert to your faith is intolerance of those who believe differently.

An idea is mainly defined by what its followers do. Marxism take meaning as Marxists practice it. I again cite Matthew 7:16 “Ye shall know them by their fruits." which specifically says that. What do Christians do? That defines Christianity - not scripture.

Why should anyone have faith either in Christianity or Marxism? Practitioners of both say that they want the best for humanity. The record of both is a story of massive oppression. Both are intolerant of those who see things differently.

I have read the Gospels and consider them fairy tales. The fruits of Christianity are exhibited in its history. Actually the New Testament was not written until sometime after the death of Jesus.

I suggest four books to you.

"Constantine's Sword" by John Carroll who was a Catholic priest. That tells of the militarism, intolerance and Jew hatred of Christianity since Constantine.

"Confessions" of Saint Augustine. I was impressed by his obvious intelligence as he speculated on time and space. However, he also showed an unreasonable guilt that he has passed on to Christianity in the doctrine of Original Sin. The idea that humans are born in sin is an ugly one.

"The Closing of the Western Mind" by Charles Freeman. This tells how the adoption of Christianity by the Roman Empire brought in the Dark Ages as the faith demanded by Christianity destroyed the spirit of inquiry and questioning in the classical world.

"The Conversion of Europe from Paganism to Christianity: 371-1386" by Richard Fletcher. 371 was the date that the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as a state religion. With the exception of Ireland the rest of Europe was converted by violence. 1386 was the date that Lithuania became Christian. There were a series of Crusades against Lithuania with great bloodshed for no other reason than that the Lithuanians wished to keep their status as a multicultural nation that tolerated all faiths. Some of my ancestors come from Lithuania.

“Ye shall know them by their fruits."

Paul.L: "For the period of known history the blockading of a countries' ports has been considered an act of war and casus-belli."

In that case, Iraq under Saddam would have been entirely justified in attacking the various nations supplying the UN-sanctioned blockade for years. Is that your contention? After all, Iraq was in a dire situation after years of that blockade, much worse than anything Israel has seen. Would Iraq have been wrong to launch strikes at the US, Australia, Britain, etc? If not, why was Israel justified in '67?

Paul.L: "Israel is a state, no matter how much you soft-lefties want it to not be so."

Why trot out this old canard that no one mentions except pro-Zionists desperate to find something to attack others with, regardless of its basis in reality? All anyone here has suggested they want for Israel is for it to behave like a nation that is worthy of all the effort and angst that its formation and short history have caused. So far, it's not doing well on that front. Frankly, the pro-Zionist lobby would be best focussing on ways to heal the growing rift between their tired propaganda and the reality of the failing Israeli experiment.
Oh yeah, you could try doing a bit of thinking whilst you're at it: the current foam-flecked tirades don't seem to have had any considered input at all.

Marilyn,

Sorry? What exactly didn’t happen as I suggested? Are you denying that Egypt, Syria and Jordan massed their armies on Israel’s borders? Are you denying that the peacekeepers were expelled? Are you denying that the Straits were blockaded? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War or any of the other sites I referenced. It’ not ME living in fantasy land

In 1948, 1967 and 1973 the Arab countries combined forces invaded Israel and attempted to wipe it off the map.

"The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence." Cairo Radio broadcast - May 18 1967

"We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand, we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood" - President of Egypt, Nasser

“In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel. President of Egypt, Nasser
http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/

You say >>” If all these armies had been amassing to attack Israel it would have been impossible for Israel to dismantle and bomb to bits all of their airforces in a few hours and get away with it.”

I see. This is your “evidence”. It’s funny that similar claims were made by Nasser, that the devastation caused couldn’t possibly have been achieved by the Israelis alone, therefore American jets flying off carriers must have been involved. This is just grasping at straws.

For starters, armies on your borders don’t really create problems for high flying jets. Can you grasp that? Secondly, Egypt’s Airforce was caught on the ground, where it was annihilated. Jets don’t actually defend themselves very well when they are on the ground, as you may understand and they can’t remain in the sky indefinitely. The Egyptians were very poorly trained, rarely paid, and suffered from command weaknesses built in by Nasser to protect his “throne”. That’s not to say they weren’t dangerous, but it allowed Israel to achieve the surprise they needed to defeat a much larger air force.

See http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_sixday_backgd.php or
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761570433/six-day_war.html

I see the Yanks have forced the Israeli's to make peace with Syria. Listen carefully to the Israelis as they try to sabotage the process by trying to keep illegal settlements on the Golan Heights.

Oh and the return of that land has been demanded by Good 'ole George.

You'd be spewing about this wouldn't you Logic. 'Fundi' David will no doubt rant about this particular injustice to christianity won't you 'Fundi?

And you know what? Neither Obama nor McCain are being funded by the Jewish Lobby in the current US campaign. They are still up to their old influence peddling activities though.

You'd both be fearful of that.

Stay tuned for more up to date info on peace prospects...

Oh and Marilyn that story about the Reuters cameraman was shown on the good old rightist Fox pay tv.

Antiseptic,

You say >> “In that case, Iraq under Saddam would have been entirely justified in attacking … the UN-sanctioned blockade”

Iraq and the UN/Coalition forces were already in a state of war. Remember the international coalition attacked Iraqi forces in Kuwait and succeeded in forcing the Iraqis to surrender. The disarming of Iraq and the consequent sanctions regime was part and parcel of that agreement. Iraq would have been violating their surrender if they’d decided to attack blockading ships. Giving up sovereignty is almost always part of surrendering. You obviously hadn’t given any thought to this issue at all. See http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9015678/blockade or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casus_belli

Regarding the second quote, I don’t actually know what it is you’re talking about. Marilyn suggested that Israel is not a state. I merely reminded her that it clearly is. Or are you attempting to suggest that Israel is not a state? If so, on what basis, since it is recognised as such by the UN.

Septic >> “ … the pro-Zionist lobby would be best focussing on ways to heal the growing rift between their tired propaganda and the reality of the failing Israeli experiment.”

Besides being absolute rubbish, this is just words. Where are your supporting arguments or are you somehow under the sad misconception that these are self evident truths?

Regarding Israel failing, I just wonder how it is you soft-left types come up with that? On what do you base it? Lack of support from the soft-left? Virtually no organisation gives a sh!t whether they have ”left” support anymore because it is entirely worthless, unable to achieve anything, except perhaps the defeat of their own countries.

I’ve got to say that if that is the best that you can come up with you’d be better off not bothering. Try engaging your brain before your mouth.

Keith,

The Americans are appalled and very unhappy that Israel is looking to peace with Syria. See http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23748549-15084,00.html
http://www.themedialine.org/news/news_detail.asp?NewsID=21597
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/985748.html

So that just blows your conspiracy nutjob theory out of the water.
BTW, The ceding of the Golan is an obvious starting point for Syria’s demands.

Paul.L: "Regarding the second quote, I don’t actually know what it is you’re talking about. "

You made a particularly stupid strawman about the "soft-left" (whatever that is), having some desire that Israel should not exist. I pointed out that you were wrong and that no one here has suggested such a thing, as far as I can see. As usual, the propaganda machine doesn't much like having facts pointed out.

Paul.L: "Iraq would have been violating their surrender if they’d decided to attack blockading ships"

Yet you claim earlier that a blockade is always a cassus belli. Do try to make up your mind.

The fact is that you want it both ways, as usual.

BOAZ_David wrote:

"She, like you, and many others on OLO, see 'Christianity' in the actions of the large Western nations which have a Judao/Christian religious tradition."

The expression ‘Judao/Christian’ is offensive. Having failed to eliminate Judaism Christianity co-opts Judaism. Christianity centres around Jesus who many Christians consider divine. Jews note that Jesus’ followers have killed Jews in his name. Christians worship Jesus but deny his religion. To many Jews Jesus inspires fear because of the actions of his followers.

Christianity has many creeds such as the Apostle’s, Nicene, Athanasian etc. Judaism has one statement of faith. "Here, oh. Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." No Trinity. Judaism is a religion of practice - not faith. Judaism has no saints or man-gods. Even Moses had his faults in losing his temper.

Jews accept but do not seek converts. Jesus claims that only through him can one reach the kingdom of heaven. To Jews any person behaving righteously is acceptable in the eyes of God regardless of their beliefs.

There are many other differences between the religions which are ignored in using the expression, Judeo-Christian. It is an expression that Christians use. Jews do not use it and generally resent it. Judaism objects to religion based on the worship of a man.

The expression, Judeo-Christian, is not as offensive as your missionary efforts that may be a violation of the Golden Rule. If you would not like an attempt to take you from your Christian faith you should not attempt to destroy other people's faith. Remember that other people mostly have a faith of their own or else don't want a religious faith.

Historically Christian missionary efforts have often been a prelude to massacre when Jews did not want to abandon their religion. There are many Jewish martyrs to Christian missionising. Your remark about conversion brings that sorry history to mind. Rather than pushing Jesus at one who is fed up with Christian missionising read some Jewish history to find why your remarks are offensive.

You seem a decent person but terribly misguided and insensitive to other's feelings.

Israel as a failed state, (Marilyn's non-state) has produced more Nobel prize winners per capita than any other country. It has produced great life saving advances in medicine, some of the participants in this debate may be alive today only because of research and development in Israel (and the nasty USA) .

Wish that all states would fail in that way. A Muslim woman wearing a head scarf recently graduated from an Israeli University, could she have done that in Saudi Arabia? So much for claims that Israel treats its minorities badly, they seem to do better in Israel than in neighboring countries.

What have Syria or Iraq, frequently mentioned in these posts, done for mankind over the last 400 years?

And don't even suggest that occupation by foreign powers has been the cause of their (stately) failures. Israel was colonised by close to three thousand years. India, Taiwan and Singapore have got over their colonial period.

Of course the anti-Israeli brigade will dismiss all of this as Zionist propaganda, of course the Jewish lobby is so unbelievably strong that it can influence Noble Prizes and the press. James Packer recently stated in an interview that the European press is antisemitic, hence unbalanced reporting of Israeli affairs (Australian papers get much of their info from UK papers), but he of course must be dismissed as a Zionist Jedi sympathiser.

Are you people insane? It doesn't matter how many smart people live in Israel, the non-state is still a savage place where Orthodox jews burn bibles.

Where they all have to do national service and are trained to murder their neighbours.

Even the Israelis' would laugh at the tripe you lot peddle.

In 1948 England and France backed the Arabs, and the US and the USSR backed Israel. Sympathisers of the fading colonial powers backed the Arabs. The left and pro-Americans backed Israel.

IN 1956 Israel, England and France attacked Egypt which had taken over the Suez canal. The US and the USSR pressured the three countries to pull back. Again the sympathies of the world reflected feelings toward the nations that were involved.

In 1967 Israel struck against the Arab armies which apparently were massed for attack. The USSR supported the Arabs, and the US supported the Israelis. At this point the sympathies were determined by the side people took in the Cold War. I was told that in Soviet-controlled Poland people enjoyed the Israeli victory. "Our Jews beat their Arabs!"

Israel's scientific and literary accomplishments are not relative to humanitarian concerns. The occupation is often brutal. However, Israelis protest against the policies of their government, and soldiers have refused to serve in the territories. Israel has used torture. However, Israel has an independent judiciary that declared torture illegal. The Arab minority is treated far better in Israel than the Jewish minority is treated in Iran and Syria. Non-Jews such as the Bedouins and Druze serve in the Israeli army. Chinese actions in Tibet, Mugabe's in Zimbabwe and others are far worse than that of the Israeli forces in the occupied territories. Yet there is a special venom against Israel. Some of it may be due to antisemitism. However, since many of the same groups that backed Israel in 1948 condemn it in 2008 that may not be a reason for all the condemnation. Perhaps they were inhibited in expressing their antisemitism so soon after the Holocaust.

News often is what is shown on TV. Israel as a democratic country allows media access to a much greater extent than China, Syria and many other countries. However, the suicide bombers are also reported. Yet, Palestinian suicide bombers seem accepted by many. Perhaps since the US supports Israel those who hate the US also hate Israel.

I don't understand Marilyn Shepherd's feelings.

David,people like you are half the problem.You were almost choking on your own vitriolic diatripe.
You need to be reminded that the state of Israel was founded on a travesty of international justice by the UN.Long before 1947-8 influential Zionists met with Lard Balfour of the British Conservative government and asked for help to create the state of Israel. After repeated requests Balfour reluctantly acquiesced ON THE BASIS THAT AT EVERY STEP OF THE PLANNING arab leaders must be consulted AND THEIR APPROVAL GAINED- ASSURANCES WERE PROMISED and given and Britian's collaboration was promised when the matter came up before the UN.The Arab leaders vigorously opposed such a plan but the religious affinities and cultural connections won the day for the Zionists.You'll note that I am not using the word "Jews".

Now, David, this is historical fact. No emotional racist vitriol here at all.Conceded?If not open your history book why dont you.

After WWII American was driven by the Zionists to proceed with the creation of the state of Israel.Jewish rabbis advised against such a move on the grounds that Israel was a spiritual state that could only be acquired through spiritual struggle and not by political means. It was apolitical. The Americans failed to get the numbers at the General Assembly by three votes. So they went to three basket cases...Haiti,Sierra Leone and the Philippines and used its wealth to buy their support...and so the state of Israel was created. It driven by the collective guilt of Christian Europe and the USA.It was driven by Zionist influence principally in new York and American dollars and its bullying tactics that have always dictated American foreign policies as the world can well see for itself...except the benighted unfortunates like yourself.

Take a look at the shape and size of the state of Israel that was conceded by the UNO, David. Go on.Open your history book. Look at the size and shape of Israel today. Any resemblance? Go on.Look at it.

socratease

Take a look at a map of Israel and Jordan, and wonder why the Arabs got 75% or thereabouts of the Palestinian Mandate. Palestinians already have a homeland. It's called Jordan (or East Palestine).

Antiseptic,

I’ll say this slowly so even you can understand (maybe).

Marilyn (crazy woman and anti-semite that she is) said >> “ The world needs to stop pandering to the non-state of Israel”

And then I said, in a post to Marilyn “Israel is a state, no matter how much you soft-lefties want it to not be so.” Marilyn-Shepherd- Thursday- 22-May-2008

No straw man.!!
Someone here did suggest such a thing!!

Do some research before you go making sweeping statements if you wish to avoid looking stupid.

As for your inept attempts to suggest that I am trying to “have it both ways, as usual,” as if you even have a clue what is, or is not, usual for me.

Secondly, when Iraq surrendered they gave up their sovereignty over a number of areas. You seem not to understand that, although it should be a very simple concept. You fight, you lose, you don’t still get to make all the decisions.

So, yes, if Iraq had been blockaded before hostilities then it would have been a case for war, because blockading is a direct and belligerent transgression on a nation’s sovereignty. However, after you have surrendered you give up all claims to further hostilities. That’s the essences of surrender. Of what use is surrender if the loser can renew hostilities at any time?

The fact is you haven’t given this any more than superficial attention, which is why you now look like a @rse.

FYI The soft-left are the chardonnay socialists who pay lip service to left issues when it doesn’t affect them too much. They are the epitome of PC culture. They pay little attention, as davidf points out, to disgusting human rights abuses in China and Zimbabwe. Yet they have venom aplenty for Israel, which is not even in the same league as the other two. This is because Israel is supported by the US, that perennial great Satan to the soft-left. So the soft-left are defined by their PC approach to issues, their hatred of America and their green fanaticism

Socratease,

Either-the-UN-is-a-legitimate-and-authoritative-organisation-or-it-is-not? Which-is-it?
BTW, You-missed-out-the-endorsement-of-the-League-of-Nations-for-a-state-for-Israel. Please-provide-references-for-your-“facts”

Marilyn Shepherd wrote:

"Some of the lovely chaps you are so happy to continually defend had a good old fashioned book burning in Israel the other day. They rounded up the bibles of the evanglic nutjobs from all over the world and burnt them. Yep, those lovely chaps burnt the bibles."

It hurt nobody and was not a government act. To round books up from all over the world one would have to pay for them so they didn't steal them.

Burning books is an unpleasant form of symbolic protest, but it is not illegal. The United States Supreme Court has even struck down laws that criminalised burning the American flag. They ruled it is a legitimate form of protest.

I share their feelings toward missionaries. You also referred to evangelists as nutjobs. Why does the burning bother you?

Marilyn Shepherd also wrote:

"Israel is not a state, she has no borders and no constitution and saying you can be a state on someone else's land without their permission was never allowed and nor should it be."

Israel is one of the many states in the UN.

All of Israel’s borders are fixed with the exception of those with the occupied territories and Syria. Israel is negotiating with Syria to fix a border. If there is a Palestinian state that will fix the remaining border. The US declared independence in 1776 and did not fix its boundary with Canada until 1846.

The UK has no Constitution. Many think it is a state. http://www.cfisrael.org//about.html is the website for the current Israeli efforts to draft a constitution.

Before 1948 all land that Jews got from Palestinians was paid for. Some Jewish Israelis are descendants of previous inhabitants. All states in North America, South America, Australia and New Zealand were founded without permission of the previous inhabitants. Romans, Norse, Danes, Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Normans overran the British Isles without permission. Are there places where people got permission from the inhabitants before they moved onto the land? Please cite examples.

What really bothers you about Israel?

Marilyn

I do not know why I bother, but here we go again. It may or may not be true that some Jews in Israel have burned bibles, no doubt that has also happened in Australia amongst some strange sects, this should not cast doubts about Israel as a whole.

You mention that all Israelis do military service, actually there are some exceptions, but a large number of countries have universal military service, including Switzerland, there is nothing unusual about that. And yes soldiers are trained to kill, not nice but if Australia and the US had not done this you would have been eating sashimi much sooner than you expected.

Amongst the population required for military service are included, Christians, Baha'i, and Druze, while Muslims are exempted, nevertheless some apply and still do service in the IDF. None of these could be seriously considered to be active Zionists. Perhaps they are motivated by expulsion from their Muslim homelands or just using their judgment.

Amongst Israel's neighbours attempts to kill Jewish populations have been around since long before 1948. Hamas is indoctrinating children to act as suicide murderers promising the poor gullible kids the entry to Paradise for their efforts. Even the mothers of these kids have appeared on TV encouraging their own in this ghastly operation. This is not Zionist propaganda, it is from Al Jazeera which I think even you will admit is not a Zionist mouthpiece.

You should admit that Israel does have a problem with neighbours from hell.

Also the King of Jordan did give written permission for a Jewish state in the area. His successor changed this.

Marilyn you may also ponder about the apparent ethnic cleansing of non-Muslims from some of these neighbouring lands. Have you ever wondered why Bethlehem and Lebanon no longer have Christian majorities, those numbers have declined alarmingly?

Perhaps you think that even that is the fault of Zionism!

Have you heard of Brigitte Gabriel? Read her comments on the matter, you will then be more enlightened. And she is not Jewish either.

See http://www.navyseals.com/brigitte-gabriels-speech-delivered-intelligence-summit-washington-dc

Dear Marilyn

I noted with interest your comment:

<<the non-state is still a savage place where Orthodox jews burn bibles.>>

I presume by this you mean the 'Christian' version.. perhaps the New Testament.

I guess you quoted this in order to demonstrate that our 'Christian' support for Israel is thus misguided?

The truth is, we follow Christ, and he taught us to love our enemies.
When people burn a bible, OR a missionary and his 3 sons (Hindu fanatics -Graham Staines, from my own tradition)
Or when tribes people spear and hack missionaries to death, we often find their offspring, or widowed spouses taking up the work and many thousands being saved as they see the true love and forgiveness of Christ at work in real life.

While I do indeed make some pretty red hot statements about Israel, the Middle East etc.. I usually couch them in language which are simply based on a 'human' perspective which is based on history and human nature.

The Biblical view of Israel is that no matter what man does, IF..God is doing something through them now, nothing will stop it. Those who think they can help.. are kidding themselves.

The real biblical scenario for Israel is rather tragic.. and the last thing you see prior to Christ returning will be a defeat of Israel, the establishment of a desecration of a re-built temple, and unimaginable strife for the world.

This scenario is based on a rather speculative view of 'Last things' and is by no means conclusive.

"All" have sinned, according to the Bible, Arab, Jews, and Gentile, and all equally need the Salvation which is found in Christ alone.

BOAZ_David wrote:

"The truth is, we follow Christ, and he taught us to love our enemies."

The truth is that you don't follow Christ. If you followed Christ you would not reject his religion. If you followed Christ you would also be a Jew.

BOAZ_David also wrote:

"The real biblical scenario for Israel is rather tragic.. and the last thing you see prior to Christ returning will be a defeat of Israel, the establishment of a desecration of a re-built temple, and unimaginable strife for the world."

Christ will not return. A real messiah would have got it right the first time and would not need to come again. There is and will be no messiah at all. It is a myth that started after the ancient kingdom was broken up into two parts, Israel and Judah. The myth started in the hope of a person who would unify the split kingdom..

BOAZ_David also wrote:

"When people burn a bible, OR a missionary and his 3 sons (Hindu fanatics -Graham Staines, from my own tradition)
Or when tribes people spear and hack missionaries to death, we often find their offspring, or widowed spouses taking up the work and many thousands being saved as they see the true love and forgiveness of Christ at work in real life."

Burning a book is not the same as killing a missionary. It is terrible that Hindu fanatics burned Graham Staines and his sons. There were two sons burned, Timothy and Philip, not three as you wrongly stated.

Graham Staines had the right to risk his life where he knew there were Hindu fanatics. He had no right to take his sons with him and risk their lives. If he was aware of the danger he was an irresponsible fool to put his sons' lives at risk.

Perhaps the Christian churches could have been more aware of the fact that India has been liberated from the Christian British Empire and didn't want missionaries. They have their own superstitions.

Just read all these comments regarding the poor nation Israel being picked on again by those darstadly lefties.
And a funny thing occured to me,
If it wasnt for Hitler,there'd be NO ISRAEL today.
I wonder how many people have ever thought of this little enlightenment ? No doubt the Palestinians have, and if anyone should hate Hitler, I guess it'd have to be them, after all, they lost the most out of all this.
For myself, I'm sick and tired of listening to the constant bleating emanating from that evil place.
A place that should the money supply dry up from it's chief sponsor, I'd dare say, the so called nation would simply disappear if it was left to it's own devices.
I guess one could define that as 'putting your money where your mouth is' something like that.
I also suspect, there are many like myself all over the World, who are very much tired of the antics emanating from that evil place, and I also suspect, that unless they change their ways drasticaly in the very near future, all the sympathy they have reaped over the last 60 years will evaporate.
It'll be very interesting then, to see how things develop, when for the first time in their existance, they will have to stand on their own two feet for a change.
There's nothing like the common denominator to make us all equal.
Hope I live to see it come about.

Boaz_David wrote:

"The real biblical scenario for Israel is rather tragic.. and the last thing you see prior to Christ returning will be a defeat of Israel, the establishment of a desecration of a re-built temple, and unimaginable strife for the world.

This scenario is based on a rather speculative view of 'Last things' and is by no means conclusive."

You are right. It is speculative. However, such apocalyptic nonsense motivates Christian Zionists who oppose every move Israel makes for peace. Religion is a great source of strife. If only the Christian, Jewish and Muslim superstitions could be done away with then they could fight over water and oil without the additional viciousness of religion.

Boaz_David also wrote:

"All" have sinned, according to the Bible, Arab, Jews, and Gentile, and all equally need the Salvation which is found in Christ alone.

That is more nonsense. Superstition enslaves. Reason liberates. All need the salvation which is found in reason alone. May you be liberated from your superstition.

From the third to the eighteenth century a religion called Manichaeism existed. At one time its range extended from Spain to China. Now only a few people are aware of it. Religions come and go although they may hang around for years. Eventually Christianity will end up like Manichaeism, but some new superstition will replace it.

Logic, if other people were bulldozing your homes, killing your children, stealing your land and resources based on the bogus notion of some old book would you sit around and take it.

For pete's sake will you people get over all this biblical nonsense. The bible is a series of parables, it is not real.

itchyvet and Marilyn

Hitler was not the reason for the creation of Israel. That started in the 19th century with Jews from Algeria, Morocco Lebanon Russia Turkey and elsewhere moving into a land which was mainly desert. The Middle Eastern Jews who went there were sick and tired of being treated as Dhimies, ie second class citizens. There were also Jews whose families had never left their ancient homeland.

During the British mandate the Jewish homeland was promised by several members of the Parliament including Winston Churchill. Long before the war. Holocaust survivors are less than half of Israel's population, the majority are Jews, Christians, Baha'i, Druze from Islamic lands escaping fundamentalist Islamization (ethnic cleansing) in Islamic republics. These persecuted groups were in the Middle East thousands of years before the birth of Mohamed.

A large section of so called Palestinians are really immigrants from other Arab countries who moved in when the Jews introduced modern farming and the deserts started to bloom. That they regard themselves as Palestinians is because the UN has a special definition of refugee for them, one which is other than that used for all others. That is the influence of oil.

Israel is tiny and indeed was the lowest quality land when the Jews arrived, but it was all they could get and at inflated prices.

Marilyn, would you be happier if the displaced Christians, Jews and Druze etc trained their kids as suicide murderers and killed the people who forced them out of their traditional home lands in the Middle East? What a blood bath we could have had if the Jews in Jerusalem had treated the minority Muslim population the same way that they had or Christians had acted in a similar fashion Bethlehem and Lebanon. The Islamic fanatics wanted a pure Islamic population according to their interpretation of the Koran. Just to mention three areas which had majority Christian or Jewish populations.

Logic,
I'm 58 years of age, a Vietnam veteran, with strong European back ground,and have, (unlike many of my fellow Australians, actually lived overseas for extended periods) the last thing I need in my life, is a zionist trying to baffle my brain with his propoganda, I've heard it all, and NONE of it holds any water whatever.
It's wasted totaly on me, do yourself a favour and try it on the youth of today,though I strongly suspect,you wont have much luck there either. The youth of today are not as gullible these days as they were in my youth, they also have the instant media and internet at their finger tips, thus can access info direct from the source.
Something no doubt, the powers that be in Israel and the U.S. are not too pleased about at all, thus the attack on the internet.But, that's another subject.
People judge others by their actions, and Israels' actions simply are beyone the pale these days,as World opinion is very clearly beginning to show.
I'd respectfully suggest, if you wish to once again gain World support,Israel's Govt is going to have to make a hell of a lot of changes, though how they will ever hope to gain the TRUST of others once more, is beyond me.

Marilyn Shepherd wrote:

"For pete's sake will you people get over all this biblical nonsense. The bible is a series of parables, it is not real.

The Zionist movement was not a consequence of a belief in the Bible on the part of Jews.

Zionism did not start out as a religious movement but a secular movement opposed by most of the rabbis. Herzl felt that Jews needed a homeland after he observed the Dreyfus trial in France, was bothered by the oppression of Jews in Russia and started the Zionist movement although there had been some previous sentiment for it. The doors were closed to Jewish immigration in many places.

Read "Bible and Sword" for the history of English involvement. England supported a Jewish homeland or state in Palestine for three reasons:

1. They wanted a population in the Middle East near Suez friendly to England
2. There was an influx of Jews fleeing eastern Europe. The English preferred that they go to Palestine rather than come to England.
3. Christian belief in the Bible.

The early Zionist movement for the most part wanted peaceful relations with the Arabs. There were exceptions such as Jabotinsky. After WW2 if the survivors of the Holocaust had been able to emigrate freely to the western countries there would be no Israel. The bars were up. The survivors could not go home for the most part because their property and land had been taken, and they could not get it back.

When Israel was founded it was thought that the Orthodox would decline in numbers. However, they haven't. As a consequence Zionism has become more religious, but it still is primarily a secular movement.

Current Christian Zionist support for Israel is Bible based, but some ultra Orthodox groups such as the Satmar and Neturei Karta are very anti-Zionist.

In 1948 a number of Arabs fled or were forced out of what is now Israel. Afterwards a similar number of Jews were forced out of the Arab countries. The Arabs were placed in refugee camps. The Jews were accepted as Israeli citizens.

Itchyvet,

Israel is fighting implacable enemies who will go to ANY lengths to visit death and destruction upon Israel and the Israeli people. It is a fact that Palestinian children are taught that martyrdom is the most important thing they can do with their life. It is a fact that almost every day rockets are fired into Israel from the Gaza strip. The same Gaza strip that Israel unilaterally withdrew from. But instead of using the Gaza as the beginning of a Palestinian state, Hamas have turned it into an FOB.

Israel’s “behaviour” in terms of the Geneva convention and the laws of war, has been as good, if not better, than Free world forces in Vietnam. And Israel is fighting for its existence. It is surrounded by State sponsors of terrorism who are committed to Israel’s destruction. Certainly Israel’s actions do not compare with the behaviour of its enemies, like Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and Hamas. These head hackers and human bombs target civilians almost exclusively.

What kind of men hind behind their women and children to fight, anyway? I lay most of the blame for the civilian casualties Israel inflicts during its targeted assassinations on the insurgents themselves. They shouldn’t ever be travelling with their families or hiding out in densely populated areas.

You say>> ” Israels' actions simply are beyond the pale these days, as World opinion is very clearly beginning to show.”

When you talk of world opinion/support, who are you referring to? Israel has the support of virtually all the western democracies. This was evidenced by the reaction to Israel’s 60th anniversary.

Where Israel has lost support, it is mainly among the leftist groups. I see this as insignificant as those groups, like lounge chairs, bear the imprint of the last person to sit on them. PC attitudes regarding a whole host of issues will change like the fads that most of them are.

BTW Israel fought the combined Arab armies ( who were armed and supported by the Russians) three times and won. They are not going to collapse any time soon.

itchyvet

I am 66 years of age am roughly fourth generation Australian and have lived overseas in Europe and can converse in four languages. You are not so special.

You dismiss anything which supports Israel as propaganda, even when it comes from sources which are not even Jewish. You dismiss anything which points to the evils of Islamism, I bet you didn't even bother to read my link by Brigitte Gabriel. Like the foolish Nazi appeasers before WW2 you will probably ignore it but here is the link once again.

http://www.navyseals.com/brigitte-gabriels-speech-delivered-intelligence-summit-washington-dc

I was born in a land which lacked any antisemitism, for me Europe was an eye opener. The minds of central Europeans in particular are filled with ethnic hatreds the like of which I had not experienced. And of course Jews were a popular target, none of it based on fact or the remotest knowledge of the Jewish faith.

It is no wonder then that European newspapers are filled with distortions about Israel by naive left wing journalists and many Australian papers just copy their script. James Murdock has commented on this, he is in a position to know. Also Palestinians have been good at presenting themselves as victims when they receive enormous sums in aid. Look at Daniel Pipes blog, he is not Jewish, but an experienced journalist with an expert knowledge on the Middle East. Have you done that?

What disturbs me most about you is your willingness to accept anti-Israel propaganda and your instant dismissal of anything that covers Israel's problems. Can you tell us why.

Oh dear oh dear,

have you lot noticed how Israel is suddenly interested in making a peace treaty with Syria?

Like to tell me why?

I reckon 'ole George has at last realised the Israelis are a suicidal bunch of f...heads. I reckon he's seen how Hezbollah's influence has increased in Lebanon and that country has astonishingly genuinely started on a path to peace and living in harmony since the latest Israeli agression and madness. I reckon the Lebanese see the only way to get rid of the Israeli meddling is to unite and really p..s them off.

Israel has also failed misderably to divide Hamas and the Palestinians, defeat Hamas or carry out a genocide in Gaza. I reckon everyone sees that. And negotiations will start with Hamas. That will be forced on Israel by a p...ed of US.

Just bloody watch the next few months before all you idiot Israel apologists who hate peace and equity start yelling me down.

I reckon 'ole George has seen the economic writing on the wall. A massive worldwide recession is coming and there ain't gonna be no spare money for propping up Israel.

I reckon 'ole George has seen the Younger Assad has finally wrested control from the old hardline Syrians. I reckon YA and all Syrians are watching what's going on in Iraq. And so are the Fundi's in Iran. I think it's scaring all them dictators and fundi's (including Boaz-David and his dictatorial Lukid and the Israeli fundis) 's...less'.

If you idiots haven't noticed Iraq is on a road to participatory democracy ... different to ours but creating an economy and interaction at a very personal level (As opposed to a community and factional level) now that the al qaeda have been totally f..ked and that Mardi madman is also on the run. I reckon all have seen the writing on the wall and are positioning themselves to take advantage. And there is more benefit in trade and commerce and interaction than in religious dogma, fanaticism, socialism, repression and violence. Israel might accept that truism someday too but their fanatic's will need to lose their government support and money first.

The Golan Heights are going back to Syria.

A two State Palestine at '67 borders is probably Israels best result, a single state is probably the world's, the region's individuals and peaces best hope.

The move is irresistable. No amount of pro-Israeli scaremongering can stop this surge now.

I think 'ole George and more importantly the Mandarins in Condi Rice's department also realise this.

Let's all cheer for peace in the middle east.

I do not think any government should discriminate among its citizens on the base of religion, ethnicity or race. I am for separation of religion and state and think no government funds should go to support religious educational institutions. If parents want it they and their religious institution should pay for it.

If Australia became a Christian nation I would become a second class citizen as I am a Jew. Therefore I cannot support Jewish, Muslim or other nations which favour one ethnic or religious group where other people are second class citizens.

Keith, your analysis of Lebanon, Syria and Israel is way off the mark. For you, it's very simple: Israel = bad, the Arab states = good. No balance at all. You forget the fact that Israel made peace with Jordan and Egypt previously.

This sentence of yours is laughable - "that country [Lebanon] has astonishingly genuinely started on a path to peace and living in harmony since the latest Israeli agression and madness"

"Peace and living in harmony"! Keith, have you forgotten already that there was an attempted coup in Lebanon a couple of weeks ago?

Keith, try to stay up to date with the news before you post.

Why must it be Israeli = bad and Arab = good or vice versa?

Many Jews or their descendants are in Israel because they had no place else to go. Conditions were intolerable where they were living, and some were refugees with no home to go back to. So they built a country. The surrounding Arab states do not want a Jewish country so they have had to fight a series of wars to survive. They are living under threat and have suffered terrorist attacks considering their size equal to several 9/11s. The occupation is horrible.

Palestinians did not choose to have an influx of people from elsewhere come into land they had been living in. They are either displaced from that land or ruled by another people. The PLO is a kleptocracy placed over them by the Arab League. In Gaza they have chosen Hamas which has provided social services that the kleptocracy doesn't. However, Hamas is Islamic, wants another Islamic state and Christian Arabs get forced out. Palestinians are under stress. Some of them resort to atrocious violence.

People under stress are not nice the way we are in secure Australia.

If other countries had opened their borders to Jews and had treated them without discrimination there would be no need for Israel.

If the Arab countries had settled the Palestinian refugees as the Israelis had settled the Jewish refugees from the Arab countries there would be no Palestinian problem.

There are two suffering peoples between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, and the rest of the world has not acted generously and wisely to either side. The rest of the world is quite good at demonizing one side or the other.

The craziness in the Bible and the Koran inspires Muslim fanatics, Jewish fanatics and Christian fanatics. Christian crazies want all to become Christian. Muslim crazies want all to become Muslim. Jewish crazies are not missionaries, but they would like the rest of the Jews to become as crazy as they are.

The Holy Land is a culture medium for religious crazies.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/986591.html

Ah yes, lovely young women these two. Logic, why on earth would anyone want to give up their land for other people who had nothing to do with it and then be talked about like these two woman do?

This is what many Israeli's believe mate.

Marilyn,

Israel has newspapers which criticize the Government and its ministers without fear. That’s just about unheard of in the Middle East. Clearly the author of the article you linked doesn’t support what Livnat and Livni are proposing. Israel is a real pluralistic democracy. There are people from across the political spectrum involved in the gov’t.

Yes that is what some Israelis believe. Many Israelis also oppose those kinds of policies. Certainly the policies are not law and that is not because Livnat and Livni just thought of them. Israeli parliaments have resisted such ultra nationalist policies because MOST of the people don’t want them.

Just have a look at Hamas's charter Marilyn. Then try and tell me that the Israelis are the extremists.http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

BTW, I want to know how it is that you sleep at night knowing that you have stolen aborigines land? Why don’t you give it back, you hypocrite. Once you give your land back to the original owners you can legitimately demand the Israelis do the same. In fact much Israeli land was actually bought from Arabs.

Keith,

Mate you are all over the place. You “reckon” a lot of things, none of which have an basis in fact. Indeed, you don’t even try to support your assertions with ANY evidence. Your references to Syria and Lebanon are so wide of the mark it isn’t funny.

1. The US is VERY unhappy that Israel has decided to accept Syria’s invitation to peace talks. It is not a policy of Bush’s in any way, shape or form. The US has been trying to isolate Syria because of its role as a state sponsor of terrorism, particularly in Lebanon.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23748549-15084,00.html
http://www.themedialine.org/news/news_detail.asp?NewsID=21597
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/985748.html

2. Assad is an old style dictator, a hardliner just like his father and there is just no way you can suggest that he has somehow left the hardliners behind. Rafiq Hariri was told that if he didn’t run Lebanon the way Assad wanted he (Assad) would break Lebanon over his(hariri's) head. It was only a matter of months later that Hariri was assassinated. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23756163-15084,00.html

cont,

cont'

You say>> “I reckon he's seen how Hezbollah's influence has increased in Lebanon and that country has astonishingly genuinely started on a path to peace and living in harmony since the latest Israeli agression and madness”

3. You must be joking, where did you pull this gem from? It was only a couple of days ago that Hezbollah moved its troops into Beirut and locked it down, fighting as it went. In fact, insane but true, Hezbollah is better armed than the Lebanese army.

4. You forget also that Israel has already made peace with some of her other neighbours, Including Egypt, who received the Sinai back in return for peace.

You say>>”. I reckon YA and all Syrians are watching what's going on in Iraq. And so are the Fundi's in Iran. I think it's scaring all them dictators and fundi's”

5. You have no idea at all, do you. Iran is rubbing its hands together with glee. One of the most dominant parties in the new Iraqi gov’t is the ex SCIRI, The Supreme Council for the Islamic Republic in Iraq. This is an organization formed in Iran during the Iran/Iraq war and its purpose is to spread the Iranians Islamic republic into Iraq. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Council_for_the_Islamic_Revolution_in_Iraq

You say >>” A two State Palestine at '67 borders is probably Israels best result, a single state is probably the world's, the region's individuals and peaces best hope.

This is just rubbish. Palestinians, along with many other muslims, are taught at school to hate Jews. You should do a little investigation into how Hamas have treated their own people since they have been in control of the Gaza Strip, then tell me how exactly the Israelis will fare under Hamas rule. You are either too lazy to read Hamas Charter or don’t want to because it might spoil your preconceived notions. Anyone who has read the charter could not seriously suggest a single state with a straight face. And anyone who thinks they could stop Hamas from controlling a single state is in fairy land.

david f

I hope you do not believe the propaganda that Israel is some sort of state just for Jews. Have you noticed that the Head of State in Australia, Britain and Canada is also the head of the Anglican Church, or that the big majority of the populations of these countries are Christian. Does that make these countries Christian states?

The Anglican Church believes that only Christians can enter heaven, so the Queen does not expect to see you there, and she is our head of state.

Israel is simply a state with a Jewish majority, and it wants to keep it that way. In the same way Western states with Christian majorities resent and act to stop any other group such as Muslims from becoming a majority. Israel is not ruled by Talmudic (traditional Jewish) law but by a form of British law created by its citizens through the democratic process. Just as Australians do not always like other groups different Israeli groups may dislike each other, in fact a number of Australians make it clear that they dislike Jews, while Camden just voted out the establishment of an Islamic school.

The important thing is that neither country discriminates in law against any group, all have an equal vote, and there are parliamentarians from all groups.

Israel made it a point to allow groups such as the Baha'i and the Druze to re-establish in Israel to avoid persecution in other countries. They are not Jewish.You should save your ire for places like Saudi Arabia where Churches, Synagogues etc are actually illegal, or Iran where Jewish schools are forced to open on the Jewish sabbath and made to have Muslims as Headmasters.

Dear Logic:

A country is not a Christian country simply because the majority of the population is Christian. A country is a Christian country if Christianity is given any special status in law. Since the head of state in Britain must be a Christian the state is Christian. The situation is slightly different in Australia since the representative of the head of state need not be Christian.

Logic wrote:

"Israel is simply a state with a Jewish majority, and it wants to keep it that way."

To do that Israel has a discriminatory Law of return that allows Jews to come in with fewer restrictions than non-Jews.

Both Australia and Israel do not have separation of religion and state. Australia funds sectarian schools and has a School Chaplaincy program. Both of which are actions that discriminate. In the US it is illegal for taxpayer funding to go to sectarian schools. It is part of democracy to have separation of religion and state. In Israel secular Jews, Haredim (ultra-Orthodox Jews) and non-Jewish children go to different schools. There is very little mixing.

Israel does not have civil marriage. One of the rights in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is to marry the person of your choice.

Israel even discriminates among Jews. Judaism has various branches, but only the rites performed by the Orthodox are recognised as legal. Australia does not discriminate among different kinds of Jews, but Israel does.

Logic also wrote:

"The important thing is that neither country discriminates in law against any group, all have an equal vote, and there are parliamentarians from all groups."

I have cited the lack of civil marriage, the different status of Orthodoxy and other forms of Judaism and the Law of Return as examples of Israeli discrimination in law. In addition there is de facto discrimination. A Knesset inquiry into public services revealed that significantly less per capita was spent in providing infrastructure and public services in Arab than in Jewish villages.

Paul

I don't think you want peace at all.

I think you only want a peace that allows and accepts Israeli expansionism!

To pre-empt you ... no I don't want a peace that sees Israel wiped out. So don't bother with that furphy.

keith

Reality is that a single state solution would mean measures taken against Jews. There is in fact not a single Arab state where Jews feel completely safe. That includes secular non-religious Jews like myself. Therein lies the problem.

david f

I would agree that lack of a civil marriage is a problem and that should not be. Reform Jews can be married in a Reform Synagogue but have to have a second marriage with the orthodox. In Australia the lack of gay marriages is also a problem for many. We are ahead of Israel but not perfect yet. Overseas marriages are recognized in Israel, also the society accepts living together which is not illegal. Muslim Christian and Druze marriages are also recognized. That is hardly a definition of a theocracy.

All of that compares favourably with other countries in the area.

"less per capita was spent in providing infrastructure and public services in Arab than in Jewish villages." Sounds like pork barreling, does that not occur in Australia?

The Law of Return is not unlike the White Australia policy or the "We decide who comes to Australia" election slogan which was highly successful. Name a single democracy which does not have discrimination in its immigration. Surely it is obvious that Israel wants a majority of its population to be Jewish just as Australia wants the majority to be Christian. because of the disparity between numbers of Jews and Christians is so great that policy is more obvious in Israel's case.

The Queen is our head of state.

Why do you insist on higher standards for Israel than for anyone else?

Logic wrote:

"Why do you insist on higher standards for Israel than for anyone else?"

Your question is a "When did you stop beating your wife?" question. I am for separation of religion and state and no discrimination among people on the basis of religion or ethnicity everywhere whether it is Israel, Australia, the US or anywhere else. You made the false statement that Israeli law does not discriminate. When I pointed out their laws do discriminate you come back with that question.

I want Israel to observe the same standards that I would like every country to observe.

Logic wrote:

"The Law of Return is not unlike the White Australia policy or the "We decide who comes to Australia" election slogan which was highly successful."

You are right. The Law of Return is like the White Australia policy or the "We decide who comes to Australia" election slogan. I am against the the White Australia policy and the "We decide who comes to Australia" election slogan. I think those policies stink.

A bit of history might tell you why I oppose that sort of thing. My ancestors were Jews who came to the United States in the late nineteenth century and the early twentieth century. In 1924 the US passed a highly restrictive immigration act which favored immigration from northern and western Europe. Under that act the immigration of Jews was severely restricted. If that immigration had not been so restricted many of the 6,000,000 who were murdered could have escaped. Jewish immigration was restricted by many other countries in various ways.

In the Law of Return Israel is doing to others what was done to us. I think it stinks.

Capisch?

Keith,

I see you have decided to throw up a red herring given that I have demolished all of your previous arguments.

OK well I do want a peace that secures Israel’s future. I also want to see Israel give up all but the one or two very large settlements (and give up useful land in return for them) and see Palestine develop into a real country.

A two state solution will prevent either side from oppressing the other, and after 60 years of war what is the likelihood of that in a single state. Hamas would undoubtedly come to dominate a single state and within the decade that state would be the Zimbabwe of the middle east. There is no way the international community could prevent Hamas from ethnically cleansing the single Israeli/Palestinian state.

Israel’s acceptance of Syria’s invitation to talk peace is laudatory and I hope it succeeds. However considering Syrias meddling in Lebanons affairs I find it highly unlikely.

Many on the left seem to ignore the fact that Israel is a country under siege. They are in a perpetual state of war with at least three of their neighbours and I believe that they have done very well to have any kind of liberal democracy under those circumstances. Many liberal democracies in the west would find themselves under martial law if they were in Israel’s position.

Davidf

Why are you determined to hold Israel to the standards of liberal democracies who are not at war. Its not really considering like with like. Also, if your proposed reforms led to Muslims holding the balance of power and voting in Hamas, who then immediately threw out all of the equal opportunity legislation and other liberal and democratic policies, wouldn’t that be just a little counter productive?

The enemies of Israel could achieve what they could not through violence and terror, the defeat of Israel. Israel would be committing suicide by allowing its enemies unlimited immigration.

Davidf

I think that Paul.L is right. Idealism is good but it must be tempered with realism.

Israel is determined to keep Jews as a majority. There would be very few countries who do not do the equivalent. Would you like a Malaysian or Fijian type situation to develop in Israel?

Israel does provide a home for displaced minorities from other Middle Eastern countries, not just over 700,000 Jews, but also Druze, Baha'i etc etc, you must know about them. The situation in 1948 was more like India/Pakistan where Hindus and Muslims were moving between the two sections of what was one country.

There was an influx of Western Jews after the holocaust but these were able to be catered for by vastly improved agricultural techniques. The latter were as a matter of fact a large minority, but a minority just the same. If the land had been left alone it would probably by now not even been able to support the small number of Arabs who were there and certainly not the large influx of Arabs from Egypt, Jordan Syria and elsewhere attracted by improvements that the Jews had made.

Get real mate.

Paul L

Your problem is you don't know what makes a Liberal Democracy. Israel ecertainly doesn't qualify for that label.

It's official religion has not undergone a reformation nor survived a renassaince. It doesn't include the influence of the teachings of Christ in it's make up. It's tenets are not and have not been challenged and relegated to a sphere outside of a secular government where it's influence is limited?

It is propagating an illegal 40 year occupation, It is illegally stealing it's neighbours lands, it practices apartheid, it suppresses opinion and people.

You display such arrogrance with your arrant nonsense. Get real no one is listening to your propaganda crap anymore. With such displays as yours you are guaranteeing the destruction of Israel as we know it.

"Davidf

Why are you determined to hold Israel to the standards of liberal democracies who are not at war. Its not really considering like with like. Also, if your proposed reforms led to Muslims holding the balance of power and voting in Hamas, who then immediately threw out all of the equal opportunity legislation and other liberal and democratic policies, wouldn’t that be just a little counter productive?"

I cited:

1. the discrimination against different kinds of Jews so only the Orthodox rites are recognised.

2. The lack of civil marriage.

3. The difference per capita of funds in Jewish and non-Jewish villages.

4. The isolation of non-Jewish, ultra-orthodox and other Jews from each other in segregated school systems.

Please explain how any of those four items has anything to do with fighting a war or giving Muslims political power.

Paul L also wrote:

“The enemies of Israel could achieve what they could not through violence and terror, the defeat of Israel. Israel would be committing suicide by allowing its enemies unlimited immigration."

Dear Paul L,

You are right. Israel cannot exist as a Jewish state and have immigration that doesn’t favour Jews.

That is the point I wished to make. I am not in favour of ethnic nationalism whether it is called self-determination or Zionism. I am against Jewish, Christian, Muslim or any other states defined by part of its population. The part of the population that does not fit official paradigm becomes second-class citizens.

If Israel did not discriminate on the basis of ethnicity it would disappear as both a Jewish state and lose whatever democracy it has. That is the tragedy. What happens to the people?

The Indian Ocean Centre for Peace Studies of the University of Western Australia published Occasional Paper No. 16 titled "Self-Determination and Human Rights" which I wrote. It makes the case that self-determination creates second class citizens since we cannot draw boundaries which will include people of only a particular ethnicity or religion unless there is complete ethnic cleansing.

Keith wrote:

"It's official religion has not undergone a reformation nor survived a renassaince. It doesn't include the influence of the teachings of Christ in it's make up. It's tenets are not and have not been challenged and relegated to a sphere outside of a secular government where it's influence is limited?"

I really don't think you know much about Judaism. "Love thy neighbour as thyself" comes from Leviticus, the Jewish Bible. Almost everything that Jesus said that was good comes from his Jewish background. Nonsense such as the virgin birth comes from pagan mythology current at the time. Neurotic guilt from original sin comes from an interpretation of Genesis through the Platonic Fall of man.

The Jewish Reformation was shortly after 70 CE when the Temple was destroyed. The priestly caste with its hierarchy lost what influence it had, and Judaism entered the rabbinical period. Rabbis were learned men with no sacerdotal function. The Jewish Reformation removed barriers between the Jew and God.

Unlike Christianity with its adoptions of creeds and throwing out heretics Judaism is democratic. It considers a non-Jew as righteous defined by the life they live not by the particular mumbo jumbo they believe. Jews do not have the exclusivity of "Only through me shall thou enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jews do not accept the sloughing off of sins by putting them on a humanoid God. There are two types of sin - against god and against man. Sins against God can be forgiven by penitence, prayer and charity. Sins against man can be forgiven if the person does something to compensate for the sin. Putting sin on a Jesus figure is not on.

Jews will welcome Christians who wish to return to the true faith and reject a pagan humanoid God in the person of Jesus. However, you can be a righteous person if you deal justly regardless of what mumbo jumbo you believe.

Thanks david f

You beat me to it by a few minutes. Keith is really a splendid person, we have communicated by direct Email. What we could all achieve if we got together. However Keith you are totally wrong on Judaism. You talk about official Judaism, there has been no such thing since the fall of the first Temple over 3000 years ago.

Judaism in its many forms is very dynamic, even the Chassidic movement taken by many as the "ultra-orthodox" developed as a reform movement in the 18th century, relatively recently for a religion. The Progressive movement, probably the most popular, is light years ahead of Christianity and Islam in its acceptance of modern ideas - women Rabbis, gays, declared agnostics, all welcomed without fuss. Even atheists are welcomed at the services.

There is a joke about a Synagogue that was so progressive that on the festival days you would find a notice on the door - "Closed for the Jewish Holidays".

Judaism relies on interpretation by Rabbis, called Talmudic law, which, it is recognised, had a great influence on English common law. This law was in existance until about the 10th century when it was continued by means of Rabbinic commentary, with many variations.

Jewish law for example has relatively modern ideas on abortion, the Menahitt ruling could have been taken straight from the Talmud.

You suggest that Judaism has not considered the teachings of Jesus, it was really the other way around with Jesus preaching pure Judaism, it was the post Nicean Christians who moved that faith in a new direction. Both faiths moved forward on separate paths, although recently the two are moving together. To its credit Judaism teaches that divine rewards are given without discrimination to Jews and non-Jews depending only on the goodness of their life.

Do unto others comes from Judaism, from a statement from Rabbi Hillel who preceded Jesus.

And Israel in no way practices or has ever practiced arparheid.

Keith,

It seems you have an attention deficit disorder. I have knocked down and exposed every single argument you have made, yet instead of attempting to defend them, you just move on to something else. Finally you have resorted to straight abuse.

I can do that too, but I don’t really think its worth my time

You have since been shown up by logic and davidf, regarding your factually incorrect statements regarding Judaism.

You say >> “It's official religion … It doesn't include the influence of the teachings of Christ in it's make up”

And your point would be what exactly? On that basis you could include all the religions of the world except Christianity.

You say >>”You display such arrogrance with your arrant nonsense. Get real no one is listening to your propaganda crap anymore. With such displays as yours you are guaranteeing the destruction of Israel as we know it.”

This is the rantings of an uneducated and intolerant man. You are not alone in your belief/hope that Israel is somehow going to be smashed soon. You’ve been wrong about just about everything on this thread, and you’re wrong about this as well. Also, I don’t imagine that I have any effect at all on Israel’s fate one way or the other. It would be really arrogant of me to imagine that I did.

You clearly don’t understand the first thing about the subject under discussion, yet you allow yourself the most intolerant of points of view. Go back and do some reading; something besides the green weekly or the socialist banner, and then cite references for your arguments from legitimate/respected sources.

Davidf,

You are being a little disengenous. You talked about more than just the four things you listed in your last post. I was responding directly to your criticisms of Israel’s control over their immigration, and the law of return.

I don’t suggest that Israel is a perfect example of western liberalism and equality. But then, who is? Israel is certainly a beacon in the vast ocean of despair and inequality that is the Midlle East. Furthermore, the people Israel finds itself at war with are the same people it seeks to exclude, precisely because of the potential to destroy the country from within.

I don’t accept that countries should be required to take all comers, especially if it would upset the stability and social cohesion of the nation.

You say>>” I am against Jewish, Christian, Muslim or any other states defined by part of its population”

Which of course, is anti-democratic. Until you can convince Christians and Muslims to give up their homelands, leave the only Jewish homeland alone. The rights of minorities in Israel are protected under law, as they are in many countries. But surely it is the right of the majority to decide how they will live, and with whom they will share their country.

One day it may be possible for the Israelis and Palestinians to live together. Before that can happen old wounds must be healed. Whilst new injuries are being inflicted every day, there is no chance of this happening.

Forcing Israel to allow entry to more Muslims would be the end of the only democracy in the Middle East, the end of a homeland for the Jews, and quite possibly portend a great deal of bloodshed

Dear Paul L,

I agree. Restrictive immigration is necessary for a Jewish state.

Yochanan ben Zakkai opposed the war with Rome and was smuggled out of besieged Jerusalem in a coffin. Romans conquered Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple and ended the Jewish state.

Zealots at Masada fought bravely but finally committed mass suicide rather than being overwhelmed and having their survivors put into slavery. Masada disappeared from Jewish consciousness, but the story has been resurrected to become part of the ideology of the state of Israel. Masada contributed nothing to Jewish survival. The loss of Jerusalem, the Temple and the Jewish state did not mean an end to the Jewish people.

Many today equate the state of Israel with the Jewish people. Yochanan knew better. Jewishness was in ethos, learning, tradition and religion and not in territory. He was a Pharisee, those maligned in the New Testament. The Sadducees bound up with Temple worship disappeared as a separate entity with the fall of the Temple.

Emperor Titus allowed Yochanan to establish a school for the study and exposition of traditional lore at Jabneh (Jamnia). The sanhedrin was reconstituted with members chosen for erudition rather than influence or wealth. With the fall of the Temple the synagogue became the centre of Jewish life.

Possibly the present Jewish Bible was formed at the synod of Jabneh in 70 CE. Without the synagogue and the Bible Judaism would not have continued for very long after the destruction of the Temple.

Yochanan wanted Jewish continuity and realised it could not be based on the reconstruction of past glories. He was reviled as one who fled Jerusalem, collaborated with the hated Romans and discarded the past in not working for a new temple. He inspired continuity through learning.

For many Jews primitive ethnic nationalism has replaced a religion they can no longer follow wholeheartedly.

Yochanan's example leads to survival. Masada's leads to the grave. We have survived these many years because we did not have a state. Better no state than an undemocratic one.

Welll David F's 'Judaising evangelistic' credentials are finally nailed to the mast.. :)

David.. you said:

"Jews do not accept the sloughing off of sins by putting them on a humanoid God."

No, they accept the sloughing off of sins on a sacrificial lamb..and animal.. and have a 'day of atonement'.. "at-one-ment"..where the barrier of sin between man and God is removed.

I don't expect you to come rushing to the front in repentance as we sing the last verse of the last hymn for the 20th time...but I do hope you will at least look a bit more closely at the true nature of Christianity,.. and see what it's about .. particularly benefiting from a read of Pauls letter to the Romans.

The theories you proposed are well known, and the presuppositions of their authors are also well known.

There is no need here to bore everyone with a 'blow by blow' expose of the weaknesses of such theories.

David, the True Faith is found

here: Isaiah 42:6

"I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,

and....you would agree I'm sure that this is 'Israel'...but see belows...same prophet speaking, is 'this' Israel?

Isaiah 53

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all

Seems like the 'myth' of the Humanoid God who sacrifices Himself for our sin began ... in your scripture :)

BOAZ_David wrote:

David, the True Faith is found

Dear Boaz,

You notice I wrote 'true faith' not True Faith. I put quotes around the expression. There is no true faith. There is merely what different people accept. Whatever brand of mumbo-jumbo you want is ok as long as you live a decent life and don't try to push your mumbo-jumbo on other people. Jews gave up the nonsense of the scapegoat. They realised the idea of transferrable sin is codswallop. Unfortunately Christianity picked it up. You want that discarded Jewish nonsense. Fine. Go to it. In the immortal words of Jimmy Durante; "Why doesn't everybody leave everybody hell the hell alone."

Well David Boaz

You have finally met your match with an evangelizing Jew.

Personally I favour humanism but with a Jewish accent.

Peter