Ginx, unfortunately, what you say is right on the money. Particularly while we have people like George Bush and his cohorts in the white house, a situation that is unlikely to change very much in the future.

Keyser, "the vast majority of this one point something billion Muslims are advocates of love,"
That may well be true, but the minority of people like your mate Sheik Halali and the ones who are on trial in Melbourne are the ones who seem to be making the agenda.

Until we see a bit of common sense on both sides we will continue to have this conflict.

A few years ago, at our local University, a group representing all the different faiths got together to get a common prayer room. The move was unsuccessful because the Moslems were the one group would not agree to any compromises. It had to be done their way, or not at all.
That sort of attitude does not help to foster love of our Moslem brothers.

David

Yeah. What bushbasher said.

keysar wrote..."I am not seeking to dismantle secularism, but attempting to be constructive in approaching its application."...I think related to statement...'A genuine secular democracy should not be so insecure'...

and that probably the heart of situation leading you to write, and form islamic friendship association of Australia.For in terms of social development, from stone age to current to 'future age'...countries where muslims predominant have religion as administrative tool ie koran...using it as a guide but 'good administration principles' always allowed to predominates is where it should be...then with time these countries administration will look similar to western ones...hopefully without power groups acting in their interests while keeping image of 'balanced interests of all' that we have eg bush/american government et al...

so starting from person, individuality is given status of fundamental right(eg like american constitution), then 'group of people' as interacting social unit_sharing of common space in sustainable harmony and development as absolute prerequisite..., and at country level_good laws that protect and promote these...so it does not matter what religion a person is...looking at each other first as the person we are...then conducting ourselves with appropriate care to 'keep the balance' with each other, and ensuring the 'government' we create has individuals who so same is what proper 'secular democracy' is about...and with it goes the power to prevent individuals/groups acting to disrupt to destroy this for self benefit...as we know such people will exist as long as the 'system' fails checks/balances in continuing good administrative conduct...hope that makes sense...

and so as member of a decent society each individual is expected to watch their acts, and watch other members of society, and act to remove/isolate any imbalancing acts/forces...sounds so much like what religion asks us to do isnt it...so being muslim jew seikh is now an 'interest among individuals' than an issue for war like we have now...

Sam
Ps~so a change might be women in muslim countries given full individual rights to live as they chose under above rules...while preventing them acting as a group to obtain privileged rights/rules over children/men like we see here in western countries...

Boaz,

If you wish to study any religion you need look at third party histories of the time. Mohammed was uniting the Arabs against the Perians and the Christians. Jesus re-establishing a Davanic house on earth. These are the political realities. Both The Bible and The Koran are religious books, not history, at least not "tight" history.
Relio-politicians and peole wishing to establish churches or dynasties are guilty of atrociities on both sides.

Personally, I like to identify with the very human psychologist, Carl Rogers, who "we must have unconditional positive regard towards our fellows". Who can argue with?

David_VK3... mate.. you pretty much_said it all.

Kaysar gives the sugar_coated soft 'public' face which he seeks to promote..and you..without any Christian axe to grind.. provide the "on the ground reality".

If only Ginxy would have a litte reflection on that predicament, she might sleep better 2night. The 'nature' of Islam, at least 'serious' Islam, or..'devout' Islam, or..'Quranic' Islam is exactly as you described.. there can be no compromise on some issues. Those issues may be many, in fact..if you can help us out a bit regarding the specific points the Muslims didn't want to compromise on, it would help us all in this matter.

I see no point in any of this 'interfaith' stuff to be honest. Have a look at how they turn out on Youtube :) its comical but also tragic.
The Muslims generally use them to rant against Israel, and the others end up just listening.

It is for reasons of the 'nature' of true Islam, that many young girls at a Saudi school were incinerated because if they were let out, they would have not been in 'correct Islamic clothing'..so the religious police let them become toast.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2002/03/15/saudia3801.htm

"Eyewitnesses, including civil defense officers, reported that several members of the Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (mutawwa'in, in Arabic) interfered with rescue efforts because the fleeing students were not wearing the obligatory public attire"

Now..Ginx... you really need to unwind a bit and get some perspective.
Learn the meaning of 'passionate discussion' and please don't assume that because people robustly put forward a dissenting position, it has to mean they HATE the other party.
Perhaps you are telling us more about yourself....? You do tend to go on a bit emotionally at times. Do you HATE capitalists or.."Non Socialists"? I suspect there is another issue at work here in you.

Ginxy...if you want to live under the type of government which exists in the home of Islams prophet.. feel free to migrate anytime. But me? I'd rather die first.(humanly speaking)

Oly, Jesus came as "He" said..not as 'you' said :)

Trad writes:

"A genuine secular democracy should not be so insecure: I should be able to present arguments in defence of my faith and also my point of view, even if either of these is unpopular."

But you just did defend your faith old son. No one has censored you. So what are you whining about?

I think your faith is equine fertiliser but neither I nor anyone else I know of is seeking to stop you having your say.