Whitty

"I also reject your assertion that 'an aggressive, self-centred or dishonest way ' is a man's way, and that women are somehow better than men, but only resort to these 'ways' to compete with the men. Men and women can both be aggressive, self-centred and dishonest."

I agree, of course both men and women can exhibit these traits. When I speak of a man's world I'm speaking generally, it's nothing personal. I'm not a man-hater.

I'm referring to the world we were all born into, one that is undeniably built on the values of individualism, competitiveness, domination and militarism which I argue in a general sense are male values. I envisage a different world, one based more on nurturing, compassion and cooperative endeavour which I would argue are traits more traditionally associated with women.

My hope for feminism has always been that it would be the catalyst in creating this fairer world, but unfortunately I think we're moving further away from it. I can't help feeling that women have sold out, or been sold out, I'm not sure which. We’re still living very much in a man's world. Women are competing with men on men's terms. They are taking on the hard-nosed values of this old world rather than influencing a change toward the more compassionate and cooperative values I once held high hopes might triumph as women gained more influence and power.

Some women are achieving high levels of personal success which is great for them and generally speaking there are more options available for women than was once the case. On a world level though only a small minority of women have benefited. There are more women today than ever before struggling to survive the crippling effects of war, poverty and discrimination.

Please remember I'm making a general case here. I'm not picking on men or implying they are inferior in any way.

Bronwyn

I agree with your statement:

"Women are competing with men on men's terms. They are taking on the hard-nosed values of this old world rather than influencing a change toward the more compassionate and cooperative values I once held high hopes might triumph as women gained more influence and power."

Maggie Thatcher springs to mind as an example of a woman playing (albeit successfully) the men's game without changing anything, She personified that 'male' trait of individualism over cooperation.

The only way we can get to a more compassionate world is one where there is more equal representation of people (male, female, white, black) where sex is unimportant except as recreation :-)

It it a world of equal opportunity for all not just the alpha males (and females). What never ceases to amaze me is that men are as suppressed as women by gender roles. Also that it is men who oppress men - this idea of feminists wanting world domination is as absurd as it is misleading. It is a misdirection for powerless men away from the truth of where the true power lies - where it always has: a few men.

Vanilla,

'cliched, intellectually bereft, semi-hysterical and untrue view of feminism '

Hey, don't look at me, I'm only commenting on Bronwyn's lamenting the 'lost cause' of those very ideals that haven't been taken up by the modern woman, supposedly because they don't 'acknowledge, the bondage they have encased themselves in '.

'Our clothing choices are *entirely* governed by society'

Well there is a pretty wide scope available. I think you can find comfortable shoes if you want.

'don't be so sensitive to victimhood that you invent it where it isn't.'
I honestly don't see the distinction you're making. If you blame peer pressure for your actions are you not playing the victim? Why is it that only women are so keenly affected by this societal pressure? Can you imagine a man saying he will only be truely 'liberated' when he can go to an office job in shorts? Bronwyn says it's more important than pay equity!

BTW: I earn at least $10k less than I could because I choose a workplace that allows me to not wear a suit. I just believe if your employer can tell you what to wear, they really own you.

Bronwyn,

'...values of individualism, competitiveness, domination and militarism which I argue in a general sense are male values.' 'nurturing, compassion and cooperative endeavour which I would argue are traits more traditionally associated with women.'

You're kidding right? Do you even know how sexist that is?

'compassionate and cooperative values I once held high hopes might triumph as women gained more influence and power.'
Your going to be sadly dissapointed. Power corrupts. If you think women are the more compassionate, just watch a bunch of teenage girls from the in-group tease someone 'til they develop an eating disorder

Fractelle,

'She personified that 'male' trait of individualism over cooperation. '
More sexist rubbish. Just perhaps to lead humans around the paddock you need more than a series of Rudd-style committees. Too many cooks and all that.

Fractelle: “… a few men.”
Spot on. Did you read an earlier post when someone posited that the “natural end” of feminism is a world entirely populated by women? A lot of men on these boards seem to think that feminists are hoping to “win.” What the prize is, I’m not sure.

Whitty: “I honestly don't see the distinction you're making. If you blame peer pressure for your actions are you not playing the victim?”
I don’t reckon. Culture is complex and people are curious. Society is in constant flux, and uses “pressure” (in a metaphorical sense) to continually mould and remould people in all sorts of ways. Attaching “blame” to this “pressure” is something you may choose to do, but I don’t see how they’re self-evidently linked. Cultural pressure simply is, it simply exerts — it’s our choice to blame it or embrace it or ignore it or shift it. We create culture just as culture creates us. I find its shape-shifting endlessly fascinating and I actively want to be — and am — involved both in critically analysing it and in actively shaping it. In fact, it’s only by analysing that we can shape it.

“Why is it that only women are so keenly affected?”
By culture? They’re not. Never meant to suggest it.

“Can you imagine a man saying he will only be truely 'liberated' when he can go to an office job in shorts?”
Virtually all cultures have deemed appearance and dress more critical for females than males. A comparable situation for men lies perhaps in Desipis’s comment: “men have less freedom when it comes to careers. Women are free (in the social sense) to chose to be career focused or not, while men are much more pressured into identifying themselves based on their career.” I agree with this — women still have more freedom to be home or office-based. So the answer to your question is no, but I *can* imagine men seeking to change the shape of culture in order to create more choices for himself. And I love it.

With all the clever hammer-in-hand negotiation techniques, choice and opportunity, women are such an ungrateful lot. They tell us they hold up half the sky, but point out how little they own of the moon.

Sure, some of us may have promised it in the heat of passion (the moon, the whole thing to the one lady), but seriously, how many of us actually own even a small parcel (yes, an enterprising real estate agent somewhere is selling undeveloped acreages as we speak).

Can’t wait for ownership stats and outrage these are sure to provoke.

Vanilla, thanks,

Bronwyn, I think that you have underestimated the complexities that shape society.

We've tended to give the good stuff to the agressive competitive types. They are rewarded by both men and women for playing hard and those who don't play that way are treated as less. A lot of parallels with the beauty thing for women which is also reinforced by both men and women. The world we live in is not a male construct, it's the result of the complex interplay of a lot of different forces which tend to reward those who do best at getting to the top of the heap.

Both men and women have shaped it by the way we reward certain types of people and the things we value.

R0bert