Desipis,

Regarding male violence, I agree with you. It is a “ Men’s Issue”. How it impinges on women is both serious, and complex, and would need more space to address than here.

You have made other completely valid points.

When I was younger, very few women worked. Women, and indeed society as a whole, expected men to be “good providers” - and sometimes a man would take a career path, even a promotion, for the sake of his wife -If not for his wife, then be “directed” into a job by his parents. Some women kept a very tight reign on what their husbands could/not do. It is tragic to think that a person is committed for life in a job they hate.

Things are changing now with women entering the workplace; men can have more freedom of choice in careers. It is not uncommon for either sex, from mid-life and beyond, to return to study to gain other qualifications in order to make a career change. When this occurs, there is often a partner supporting them whilst they study. It will be interesting to see how many career changes an individual may make during a lifetime. Perhaps there are already statistics available.

You mention “status” issues - and you are undoubtedly correct. This is not in my orbit of values, so had not considered this aspect in my responses. But I recall a high-flier’s wife rushing out to buy her small son a new set of pyjamas because she was giving a dinner party; also desparate to ensure she had the latest model car. We met at a group, and she confessed that she, initially, avoided sitting next to me because I didn’t wear designer clothing. I can see that “status” is very significant in some people’s lives - for both men and women - and this must put enormous pressures on families. But, then I don’t consider folding clothes neatly a priority, either.

cont ...

“ ... studies show that women control 80% of discretionary spending ... ”

A study would need to be undertaken as to how this 80% is spent. What % for groceries, utilities, children’s needs etc. Undeniably, women in the work force have to maintain a level of appearance, and this upkeep can be expensive. My career-daughter spends an enormous amount on personal upkeep; but the company for whom she works, and her position demands this - not only for seeing clients, but for travelling and formal functions. She’s happier in jeans and a T-shirt.

Robert,

Your provide compelling figures that women own greater wealth than men. Could this be a factor that women on average live longer than men, and these figures include wealth owned by widows; and where finances have been so arranged as these don’t emerge as “inheritances.” Perhaps widows assume control of such businesses. Also this poses the question, whether women’s wealth may actually be jointly-owned businesses.

Bronwyn,

I agree with you about with you about women rising to positions in ways - “aggressive, self-centred or dishonest”. The last thing women should seek is to emulate the less desirable aspects to which some men can resort. However, men also suffer from the actions of these types. Bullying is very nasty.

Desipis,

Regarding “a poor nail job” - I confess, in my case at least, that you are correct. When passing “my” nails, I frequently hiss: “Stay up, you bugger ...” But, on the other hand, when I pick up a hammer, my husband immediately does a task which might otherwise not get done ... and I don’t have to say a word.

Danielle,

from the articles that i have seen where female millionares/billionares will out number men, is mainly because women live longer than men (and havent divorced their husbands).

Vanilla you wrote that the OSW is impotent.

In a book I read a feminist said that too bring about change it is not the politican to target, but the political advisors. I have watched how certain feminist claims evolve and it follows a pattern, particularly in its spread from one country to another. A recent example is the current push to change the law in regards to sexual consent.

The recent Australia Says No campaign unfortunately only concentrated on violence against women and as such missed an opportunity to address violence in a much more holistic and effective manner. It is no good targetting only a part of the violence problem and ignoring other forms of violence.

Miacat "There is something wrong with the moral compass of a society which not only ignores, but promotes the degradation of women - and children, as Julie Gale's earlier viewpoint stated."

there are a number of books on how the media portray men and this would appear to be a much bigger problem than how the media portrays women.

So Miacat it would appear that you are supporting special rights for women.

I wonder how many of the women on this forum have read any of Warren Farrels books? or David Thomas, Maggie Hamilton, Melanie Phiilips.

Me, I have read Greer, Fauldi and others who escape me at present.

Danielle, I'm uncertain of the answers to your questions. The material I found which suggests that women currently have very similar levels of personal wealth to men seems to be all UK based. I've not found anything similar for Australia or the USA.

The quote Vanilla picked up on suggests that most are generating wealth through their own efforts. Living longer than men must be some help and clearly marriage and divorce make a big difference to some, I've not seen anything on it recently but women used to marry up (marry people with higher wealth than themselves).

I'm not convinced that women have more wealth than men yet, rather that the assertion is not as silly as it seems and that authors such as the one who wrote this article are giving a misleading view of how things are. They use selected statistics to try and create an impression of oppression and lack of opportunity.

I believe that our own beliefs about what we can and cannot achieve have a much bigger impact on us than any remaining societal gender discrimination. We may have work a bit harder to overcome perceptions sometimes but that's life.

R0bert

Vanilla,

I never said Bronwyn blames men, I see her blaming 'society'. She seems to think women who wear heels and wax their legs just need to be better educated by Feminists that their actions are an act of self-bondage, and they just don't recognise it. They're such victims they don't see what society is 'making' them do to themselves. It's pretty patronising of women I reckon. If women are so helpless to the expectations of 'society', it's not a very flattering picture to me.

I say a lot of women probably just like the feeling of smooth legs and feeling taller, or display natural human vanity, and it isn't for believers of some ism to tell people how to behave, and admonish them for letting the 'sisterhood' down.

I take your point that she does later in her post talk about self-bondage rather than opression, but does blame society fo this self-bondage, and at a streatch men or husbands (even though I haven't argued this), when you read her initial comments below....
'"However, some husbands expect their wives to look gorgeous all the time...." I agree, and the pressure to conform to this imposed image of female beauty seems to be increasing.'

Whitty,
Feminists have never tried to stop women wearing heels or shaving their legs and feeling proud of their pins. I do all three. The whole “feminist lie Germaine needing to tell a woman she must wear flat shoes and not wax her legs as that means she is being oppressed” is just a cliched, intellectually bereft, semi-hysterical and untrue view of feminism that peaked in the 80s and seems to have found some retro purchase on these boards in the naughties. It’s the lie. It bores the bejezus outa me.

What feminists do is challenge men and women on how “free” their choices really are. Our clothing choices are *entirely* governed by society — if you seriously think otherwise, then I assume it’s entirley conicidental that you dress like a 21st century Aussie bloke and not like Louis XIV, or Tollund Man, or Rita Hayworth. Costume has always been fodder for cultural critique, and rightly so. Many commentators, feminist and otherwise, have echoed Bronwyn’s point in recent years.

Discussing societal pressures isn’t surrendering to victimhood. Society’s function is to exert pressures all over the shop. It must, to keep us from throttling each other or singing show tunes loudly in business meetings. I’ve never been a victim of anyone or anything, but I see abundant value in *constantly* challenging society. Indeed, challenge gives society its oxygen, lets it morph and grow. Don’t you seek to challenge society on its neglect of men?

Bronwyn isn’t blaming. Or telling women how to dress. She’s challenging. She’s peeling away motivations to locate real freedom.

You’re free to disagree, but don't be so sensitive to victimhood that you invent it where it isn't.

Bronwyn, what's your view?

Yabby: “Unlike you, I don't conform to others rules or opinions.” Um, like the dictionary?

James: Good piont about the OSW. So, should there be an OSM? There are certainly men’s issues that could benefit from a central home — prostate cancer awareness, violence issues. Has anyone ever lobbied for such a thing?

R0bert, you're so intelligent and sensible. Hope the author saw your comments.