JamesH

"I know women who regard the money they earn as their money and the money he earns is still their money."

Yes, this is a running joke at our house too, with not much truth in it really, as my partner will readily admit when you get him in a serious mood!

Women in this situation might spend some of the money they've earned on themselves, but in my experience the majority of it goes towards house and family projects or extras that the normal budget mightn't stretch to and I'm not talking luxury items here by any stretch.

In my situation, and I'm not necessarily speaking for others here though I doubt that it would be uncommon, I defer to my partner if we have a difference of opinion on how money should be spent on major items. This doesn't happen often as we mostly work things through and come to an agreement, but one example of contention is in the area of investment. I would prefer our money to have been invested through ethical investment companies, whereas he doesn't see this as a priority. I am prepared to make this concession as he has always been the major income earner so I feel out of fairness I should do this even though it is not easy for me to concede on this issue.

Most women engage in degrees of give and take like this. You are painting a very negative picture of women. They're not all out to take your money.

Rehctub

"One of the major causes of conflick over what is descibed as 'unpaid housework' is that most women set a higher degree of 'what is clean and or tidy'."

This is true to some extent, though I know men who set the bar higher than their female partners and actually put pressure on them at times because of this, so I think it cuts both ways.

I feel both you and JamesH are using this line of argument to conveniently negate the value of women's unpaid domestic work. Yes, maybe some women do occasionally wipe the bench when it's not strictly needed, but most of the washing, cooking, cleaning, shopping, etc women (and some men too) do as unpaid domestic work is vitally necessary to the smooth functioning of any home and family unit, irrespective of how thoroughly or otherwise it is done.

The time spent on it needs to be factored into the working arrangement of any partnership if there is to be a real degree of fairness. This still doesn't happen in a lot of partnerships. Many men still view it as an invisible add-on that their partner should somehow manage without much input from themselves, in spite of the fact that in many cases she is working just as long as he is in paid work outside the home.

To state, as you both have, that most domestic chores either don't need to be done at all, or if they do they don't need to take as long as they do, is to totally devalue a sizeable proportion of many women's lives. Like it or not, this stuff has to be done, and unless you can afford to contract it out, it has to be shared between the partners in the relationship. It can be done fairly, as is the case in many relationships, but still too often it is not divided up fairly at all, a fact to which the male partner can often be quite oblivious. I might be wrong but I think you could both fit into this latter category!

Its not unpaid domestic labour when someone else pays your half of the domestic bills.

And you dont get to include the half of the work that you do on your own behalf.

Neither do you get to unilaterally define what is or isnt work. Thats just padding and its no different to what happens in the so-called paid workforce. In fact its rife. People always overstate and exagerate their contributions. The time taken to do a task usually expands to fill the time alloted to it.

Anyway, a male friend of mine has been a stay at home dad for 8 yrs. Its the cruisiest gig on planet earth. He and l get together for weekly gossip sessions and we larf wonderously at the irony of role reversals. To this end l disagree whole-heartedly with the premise that feminism has been a bit lagging. Its done wonders for the choices and possibilities now acceptable to men.

Oh, another feminist article. Who would have thought.

I was trying to not be so cynical, but she lost me when she started banging on about an overheard conversation about a job interview. I didn't find that argument very compelling.

The housework argument always grates as in my experience most women WANT a cleaner house and VALUE cleanliness over free time more than men. It's ridiculous to lump this in with equity as there should be compromise between couples. i.e. If you really need to vacuum every week and I think once a month is enough lets do it once a fortnight. Then the lady of the house does it every week in between anyway, because SHE WANTS TO.

With regards to the pay gap, I'm really skeptical regardless of the stats. It wouldn't make economic sense to pay a man 15% more when a woman can do the same job for less.

With % of women in top jobs, discrimination is assumed, but why not assume a lot of women just don't want the jobs? There needs to be a better statistic on jobs applied for or something that would give more info. It would only hurt the feminist cause though so don't hold your breath for that research.

Danielle's post probably covers the rest of my opinions...

Bronwyn, the wonders of the english language.

"To state, as you both have, that most domestic chores either don't need to be done at all, or if they do they don't need to take as long as they do, is to totally devalue a sizeable proportion of many women's lives." Bronwyn.

Show me where I said that?

I believe that you are adding your own interpretation to what I wrote, conveniently to try and put myself on the back foot. I had a relationship once with someone who did that trick very regularly, where she reinterpret what I said to something very different.

R0bert,

Thanks for that info. You make an excellent point.

Everyone:
All this talk about who does the housework confounds me. I'm the messy one in our house. Maybe we're lucky, because we both do the stuff we either like or hate least and that seems to work. Why fight about something so boring? James, you've met some godawful women in your time. Have you extrapolated from this to conclude all women are godawful?

Romany on the sexes being "complimentary": Ah, Yabby, would that this were true: then none of us would have anything to worry about.

Hilarious. You're so cool, Romany.