Lev says:

"Still, you are certainly right about one thing. Yes, we do want the whole lot - all of historic Palestine as one democratic and secular state; and that would eventually end the rocket attacks on both sides. And demographics be damned - that's a fundamentally racist argument! So what if Jews end up being a minority religion in Palestine? It's not numbers that count it is the provision of egalitarian political rights that matter."

I agree. The question then becomes how does this happen?

Spy,

Regarding Israel and the Palestinians, Keith demonstrates the mental condition “Confirmation Bias ” - well documented in psychological annals. It is also fixated. No rational argument nor verifyable facts can pass through this bias. He will always maintain his viewpoint. Writers OLO can attest to this.

Lev, as always, clings desparately to any trash, no matter, how false and malicious it has proven to be, to verify his aberrant and ludicrous positions.

dane,

Horrific massacres have occurred throughout history ... undoubtedly will recur. You, apparently don’t know, or perhaps choose to ignore, what sets aside and distinguishes the Holocaust from all others. Study it in detail and you will understand. A benchmark in human history; it changed the world in every way - in approaches to philosophy, the arts, literature, the sciences, our relationship with peoples, new disciplines have arisen, and on and on ... Perception of the world will never be the the same. I suggest you read authors like Ernest van Alphen.

Terence Des Pres:

“The Holocaust shall be represented, in its totality, as a unique event ... above or below, or apart from history”.

The Holocaust occurred only some 60 years ago in what was considered the most civilized and cultured country in Europe; That alone should give you pause for thought ...

Compassion other suffering ...

Jews were in the forefront of the Civil Rights movement (read Martin Luther King). More Jews, per capita of white South Africans, were involved in the Anti-apartheid movement ... Mandella stated: “ I owe them (Jews) a debt of gratitude”.

In every disaster zone, man-made or natural, Israelis are on the ground, setting up camp hospitals and sending in medical supplies. Iranians were extremely angry when their president refused to admit Israeli teams after a massive earthquake.

During the Balkan war, Israel was the first to offer sanctuary and citizenship to Muslim refugees. Israel provided citizenship to Vietnamese boat-people refused asylum in every other part of the world

Russian Pravda reports that Rwanda educators are seeking advice from Holocaust survivors on how to cope with genocide.

cont ...

Israel donated $5m. in aid and equipment to victims of Darfur genocide. An Israeli organisation - “Save Darfur”.

The Wolfson Medical Center, Israel, specializing in heart disease, has a program free of charge, “Save a Child’s Heart”:

"Over 30 percent of the children being treated by us come from Africa. But whether it's the refugees of Sudan, the poor from Palestine, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia or any other nation worldwide we are here and ready to save lives. Every child deserves the best humanitarian medical treatment and we have both the medical professionals and facilities to get that job done."

Australian Jewish university students work with, and have contributed major benefits to an “adopted” group of our indigenous people.

Jews, as a people, are the same as other groups. They are no richer, nor poorer than the average Australian. Some are in the foreground, like those of Chinese origin. Jews and Chinese both share a common feature - dedication to study and hard work.

There are problems in Israel - every country has them. Israelis are the first to admit this. Israel is under constant siege, and daily risk of war; this necessarily causes urgency ...

Whilst people tend not openly to express their prejudice of other groups, Jews, ALWAYS virulently cop it - no matter how careful and moderate sounding the rhetoric. After all, they are the historical scapegoats - the manifestation of why things have gone wrong - the embodiment of evil - historically they deserve it don’t they? (sarcasm, Lev) And ... not the least, it is safe to attack them ...

dane,

As you can see, people like Keith, Marilyn, Lev, and some others here OLO, reinforce the imperative why Jews must have a homeland of their own.

Danielle,

Once again you are engaging in ad hominen attacks. If you claim I use "false and malicious" material that is "proven" as such, please prove it.

1) You claimed that the UN report said there was no massacres in Jenin in 2002. I have actually provided the report itself. Is the UN report "false and malicious"? Is the Jenin Inquiry "false and malicious"?

2) Is it wrong for historians to accumulate and then interpret facts? Have I provided false information from the interview from Dr. Ilan Pappé? Is it "false and malicious" that Dr. Pappé used direct Arabic source material which Benny Morris cannot read?

3) What are there statements of falsehood in Dr. Finklestein's book? Is it true that his parents were both holocaust survivors?

4) Is it true that the explosive tonnage and damage fired from Israel into Gaza far exceeds those fired in the other direction?

5) Is it true that Israel controls Gaza's airspace, territorial water, offshore maritime access, population registry, entry of foreigners, imports and exports as well as the tax system?

There are plenty of opportunities for you here. However I must acknowledge that you seem incapable of even admitting error on the most trivial instances. The language was harsh but Keith's assesment of you (Feb 8) is quite accurate.

Israel's merits are many. It is the most secular, democratic State in the region. That does not mean however that I will turn a blind eye to the apartheid system of hafrada that exists between Israel and the occupied territories it controls, its military aggressiveness, the utterly abhorent policy of collective punishment that it metes out against Palestinians and Lebanese, and the risible religious-ethnic laws within that state.

The fact is that I want to extend secular democracy within Israel and to all those people who live under its control - and ensure that Jews have a homeland in Palestine. There is nothing wrong with this proposal.

Spy

You quite made my day with this;

'Well, sorry to wake you up Keith but Israel already has extended the hand of friendship - it has peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan.'

I know, they were forced on a reluctant Israel by the US and the USSR after the world tettered on the brink of nuclear holocast in the aftermath of one of those nasty mid east wars. I can recall it was Sadat who instigated the move towaerds peace. Jordan joined in. But please note, and here's the part I loved, and which you've unwittingly acknowledged.

The peace was arrived at after Israel was required to quit all occupied Egyptian and Jordanian lands.

Now do you see the problem stopping the peace with Israel, the occuppied West Bank and Gaza and Palestinians?

I had a good old laugh since you never ever acknowledge openly the problem with peace is Israel's resolve to continue it's occupation, supression and land stealing settlements.

We have all witnessed Christians kneeling and prostrating themselves before a salt damp mark on a wall, or before a
sunray striking a fence-post at a certain time at noon. They devoutly swear these are apparitions of the Virgin Mary come to them.

Lev also prostates himself before, and swears on the pure motives of salt damp marks and sunlight striking fence posts - imbedded in his rhetoric for the disposal of Israel. Whether Palestinian, Israeli or other, peoples are mere cyphers to him.

Hard, bitter, unpalitable evidence proves Lev’s ideas would result in destruction of all Israeli Jews, perhaps all Christians. Definitely all Gypsies, Druze, Bedhouin and Ba’Hi ... peoples brutally persecuted in Arab lands and Iran. Israel, too, is their homeland, their protection, their sanctuary.

Apply Lev’s theories of social engineering to Iraq ...

cont ...