Danielle,

I pointed out that Pappé used Arabic sources - in contrast to Benny Morris' accounts, remember? Then you lied and said he only used Arabic sources.

Now you have bigoted lies about Uzzi Ornan and the Canaanite movement. It is a lie to say he wants "everything" to reverted back to the Canaanite period. It is a lie to say that he wants only the Hebrew tongue spoken. It is a lie that he wants all things Jewish expunged. It is a lie he wants to do the same to Islam.

The Canaanite movement, expressed in the "Epistle to the Hebrew Youth" (1943) by Uriel Shelach (you could try reading it, although you may have to understand Hebrew), was an appeal to Hebrew mother-tongue speakers to disaffiliate from Judiasm as their primary identity in Palestine.

Uzzi Ornan, associated with the movement, was also a leader of the "League Against Religious Coercion" and most recently a leader of the "I am Israeli" movement, which seeks to drop the nationality requirements on formal government registration or allowing one to include "Israeli" as an option. This key element of the article originally presented to you - although 17 years old - is still an ongoing issue with the most recent appeal in October last year (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466379,00.html)

When you made the ridiculous claim that Israel ranked #1 in the world for freedom of the press, I pointed out almost straight away that this was wrong and it was actually ranked #59. Now four months later, I must point it out to you again. http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=271&year=2006

It is evident why you don't understand why I have a problem with marriage in Israel. It's because I am a secularist. It is because I think the option of a civil marriage should be available in all states.

"I am not returning to this discussion."

That's what you said last time (Nov 14). That too was a lie.

Spy

This is fairly typical.

You: 'Israel will give land in return for security guarantees but no such guarantees exist at the moment.'

Me: Of course Israel has the right to demand guarantees in return for land. Isn't that what has been proposed but Israel refuses to hand back the land and while peace negotiations are underway even increases the illegal settlements.

You: 'For me, the onus is on radical Palestinian groups to accept Israel and disarm. Then Israel will exchange land for a guarantee of security.'

Good God your objection re guaranrtees was overcome and then you introduced a new condition.

This has gone on for 40 years. Enough. How can anyone debate with you seriously... you keep moving the goal posts.

And at the same time you arrograntly demand the Palestinians disarm. To be fair why don't you expect both sides disarm? Just take a look at peace-loving Dannielle suggesting Israel use it's nuclear weapons to 'solve' it's problems.
All that needs is a few more maniac's in the Kessnet.

What happens if Jewish Israelis to become a minority in Israel or Iran decides to solve it's problems in the same manner once it has it's bomb?

And why don't you ever address the expansion of the illegal Israeli settlements and their impediment to peace?

Keith,

I did not move the goalposts. No new conditions were added. Any guarantee of security is necessarily dependent on radical groups disarming and recognising Israel. Without that, there is no possibility of a guarantee of security. Please explain how YOU see a guarantee of security without those elements.

I did not demand that the Palestinian Authority disarm. I called for the radical elements to disarm. This is connected to my point about a guarantee of security. Israel itself recognises the need for the official Palestinian security forces to be armed and in fact provides weapons and training to them.

Settlements are a major obstacle to peace. I agree completely. My view is that Israel hopes to retain the major settlements in and around Jerusalem. This will probably mean that when any peace deal is finally reached the Palestinians will not get 100% of the West Bank. One of the compromise proposals is to give the Palestinians land EQUIVALENT to the territory of the West Bank - this means that some areas where are currently part of Israel proper might actually become part of a future Palestinian state. The areas in question are inside Israel near the north western edge of the West Bank. We will have to wait and see what happens with this proposal.

keith

I know that you do not mean any malice in what you say and like me enjoy a good argument.

But would you like to be faced against an enemy who actually presented a children's TV program with puppet characters who extolled the virtues of martyrdom, and suicide bombing? If Israel really controlled the occupied territories surely they would have acted against such a sickening abuse of children? And why do you continually single Israel for land stealing when the Arabs did the same? A lot of Jewish communities were established for 100 t0 200 years or more and Jews killed and their properties taken by Arabs. Why be so one sided? How long do people whose ancestors have bought land and lived in it for generations have to be there before they are considered to be legitimate owners?

Lev

Your argument has become so personal, and you rely on a small number of opinions which you seem to consider gospel. I do not get the impression that you have really thought it through.

You talk about discrimination towards Israeli Arab Muslims, be more specific, they get a vote have elected representatives in Parliament, and are subject to the same legal system, what more do you want?

And how do you think a Jewish homeland could exist with a Muslim majority? How many Muslim dominated lands give equal rights to non-Muslims? How many are stable functioning democracies. In how many Islamic states are Muslims allowed to change their religion? Some have Sharia law including stonings killing of homosexuals and forcing women into uncomfortable clothing. Do you really think that the Israelis, many of whom are Christians would accept that?

Logic,

What do I want? I want an end to all religious states. I want to see the right for candidates to nominate who wish to change the basic law that Israel must be a Jewish state. I want to see residency rights granted to those in the occupied territories who marry Israelis. I want an end to all laws and regulations which differentiate on the basis of religion. I want to see secular marriages. I want the end the 10 out of 22 seats in the Israel Land Administration allocated to the Jewish National Fund and the ending of discriminatory lease practises. I want to see a "right of return" for Arabs displaced from their lands in greater Israel. I want to see and end of the noose of imports and exports imposes on Gaza and the West Bank. I want the apartheid wall torn down.

I want to see Yerushaláyim the capital of Palestine, a homeland for all who wish to call it such, a beacon unto nations. The fact that you do not trust the ability of non-Jewish Arabs to live in a secular and democratic society and that you're fearful of their "majority rule" indicates how far you have to go in your own heart.

Spy

How can mighty Israel demand the disarming of extremists when mighty Israel arms and protects and steals land for it's illegal settlers?

How can mighty Israel demand a stop to resistance while it refuses to cease it's illegal occupation, it's unlawful detentions and it's collective punishments ... especially the one when a people elected their representatives and mighty Israel interfered?

Tell me why mighty Israel refused to recognise the legitimately elected government of Palestine?

Why do you people now try to drive a wedge between the Palestinians of Gaza and the Palestinians of the other occupied territories. Just because Israel abandoned, under duress, it's settlements in Gaza and withdrew it's storntroops from that territory doesn't mean Israel has ended it's occupation of all the territories. Such an argument that 'look what Israel got in return for giving back Gaza' is totally diashonest. It tries to create a myth that the Palestinians of Gaza are somehow different from other Palestinians.

But ahhhh such is the workings and method of the traditional Israeli propaganda machine.

Why don't you blokes wake up to yourselves? The rest of the world is becoming increasingly aware of the methods of the Israeli bulls..t artists.

And besides even George Bush made it clear the impediment to peace is the settlements and they need to be removed. Remember his recent trip to Israel. His demand and counsel was met with the usual Israeli silence and intransience. You blokes had better hope John McCain wins the next election because he will be easier to deal with as he will be much more understanding in helping the Israelis leave the occupied territories. The other blokes will simply withdraw military support unless Israel acts to end it's agression.

And that option might just appear now that it is clear, to quote Rice's words after the debacle of Lebanon, 'now we will see just who wants peace in the middle east.'

End the occupation, after 40 years it's obvious it isn't working to ensure Israeli security nor to promote peace ... such violence is only causing more violence.