Keith,

"Tell me why mighty Israel refused to recognise the legitimately elected government of Palestine?"

Israel refused to recognise Hamas in Gaza because Hamas refuses to recognise Israel and seeks to destroy it. Let me remind you that the Quartet and virtually all the international community also refuses to recognise Hamas and boycotted it too. Please explain why the international community should grant legitimacy and recognition to a group such as Hamas?

"How can mighty Israel demand the disarming of extremists when mighty Israel arms and protects and steals land for it's illegal settlers?"

Keith, Israel negotiates with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. It recognises these moderates as the official representatives of the Palestinians. It arms and trains the Palestinian Authority security forces. Extremist groups opposed to the Fatah-aligned Palestinian Authority are trying to derail the peace process. Israel and Fatah are trying to control and disarm these groups. Please explain what is wrong with trying to disarm extremists.

I've given my views on the settlements as an impediment to peace in an earlier post. This is one area in which we seem to agree that Israel is hindering peace. However, you fail to acknowledge that BOTH sides bear responsibility for prolonging this conflict. You seek to lay all the blame at Israel's doorstep. This is unbalanced and unfair.

Keith, Israel has a right to defend itself against rockets coming from Gaza. Do you accept this? Had there been no rockets Israel would've left Gaza to its own devices.

"End the occupation, after 40 years it's obvious it isn't working to ensure Israeli security nor to promote peace ... such violence is only causing more violence."

Keith, actually Israeli security IS better protected by having a military presence in the West Bank. Without that presence radical groups would have a much easier time attacking Israeli targets. This is why Israel will not withdraw until it has a guarantee of security

Spy

Your arguments are circular
'Israel will not withdraw until it has a guarantee of security'

Guarantees have been given so why doesn't Israel
1. Dismantle the settlements
then
2. Cease it's occupation.

The Hamas Government should be recognised. It was elected legitmately by the people of Palestine. It's election manifesto expressed it's intention towards Israel. That's it's mandate. That's how things are in Western Liberal Democracies. Israel doesn't agree with our way of doing things.
Those in the West who agree with Israel will eventually recognise and correct the error.

Bush's latest pronouncement re illegal settlements is an indication that process is begining. In Liberal Democracies when errors are made it takes time but usually doesn't involve rockets, violence, wars or 40 year occupations to correct errors of judgememnt.

Israel needs heed that history.

'Israel negotiates with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. It recognises these moderates as the official representatives of the Palestinians.'

It doesn't matter who Israel thinks is the official representatives of the Palestinians. Israel is not negotiating with the legitimately elected representatives of the Palestinians. In fact many of the legitmately elected representatives of the Palestinians languish, chargeless and trialless in Israel detention/concentration camps.

Do you really expect me to believe the Palestinians have negotiated or are going to negotiate away their rights to their own land and Jerusulem?

If there was no occupation there would be no rockets.

Why do you persist in trying to perpretrate the myth of the destruction of Israel and that the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza somehow are separate nations?
Your arguments are based on those really very stupid premises.

'...actually Israeli security IS better protected by having a military presence in the West Bank.'

Here spy is where you exemplify and have expressed the cause of the problem in a nutshell.

Spy, actuallythe best guarantee of security is peace coupled with social and commercial interaction.

These two ideas and preferences underline and highlight only Israel's perpetration of the conflict...and it's divergence from our Western Liberal traditions.

... and don't yell, ... it's rude.

Lev,

To confirm your profile of me as a lying, wicked, evil, psychopath (rather a tautology), thus sharing my identity with a heavy concentration of criminals, among whom are serial killers, Ted Bundy, and cannibal-murderer Jeffrey Dahmer, I return once more ... Not to debate you nor keith - as a mere woman, devoid of testicles, “how dare I” - but just to add a few tiny comments, and contribute a few sites.

Keith, you state:

Q. “Can you please explain why an unoccupied free Palestinian state wouldn't behave exactly as the free unoccupied Egyptians or Jordanians.”

A. JEWS ARE BANNED FROM LIVING IN EGYPT AND JORDAN.

“Israel has nuclear weapons and the support of the largest military power the world has ever seen. “

Keith ... as you couldn’t answer this question, I did so for you ...

Indeed. Israel could bring an immediate end to all its problems. Why doesn’t it?

MORAL SCRUPLES

“... our Western Liberal traditions”

AH YES! - THE WEIMAR REPUBLIC, 1930c

Two Brief Introductions to Hebrew Canaanism by Ron Kuzar
http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/kuzar_intros.html

Canaanite Movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanites_%28movement%29

Freedom House: Israel (2007)
http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=363&year=2006&country=6985

Rewriting Israel's History (even Benny gets a serve)
(Middle East Quarterly, June 1996)
http://www.meforum.org/article/302

(Middle Eastern experts can be contacted personally from MEforum; all documents are well referenced)

Just one snip-it. The current debate raging about returning Gaza - not a successful experiment - back to its original owners.
http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/index.php?id=837

Back to my padded cell, embroided straight-jacket, and medications ... Lev, you will be pleased to know that, (despite you claims to the contrary) wearing my straight-jacket, I can “lie straight in bed”... I ponder, however, with the attributes of being a lying, wicked, evil, psychopath - “a lying, immoral troll, a parody of a human being” - why I am not leading a country somewhere - or at least in opposition ... Life is so unfair ..

Keith,

Your argument is simply "end the occupation now and everything will be OK". This hopelessly naive.

You: "Guarantees [of security] have been given".

Please explain. The fact is that at present the Palestinian Authority is either incapable of, or unwilling to control radical elements which attack Israel. There is no guarantee of security as things currently stand.

You: "The Hamas Government should be recognised. It was elected legitmately by the people of Palestine. It's election manifesto expressed it's intention towards Israel. That's it's mandate."

Keith, you're proposing the recognition and legitimisation of a terrorist organisation which seeks to destroy Israel. If Hamas wants to be recognised as a legitimate government it needs to behave like one. Recognise Israel, renounce violence and they can join the club. This is the way the international community works.

You: "If there was no occupation there would be no rockets."

Sorry Keith, read the history books. There were attacks on Israel before the occupation. Radical groups want all of Israel, not just the return of the occupied territories. Please don't try to tell me Hamas only wants land taken in 1967.

You: "actually the best guarantee of security is peace coupled with social and commercial interaction."

Yes, in the long term that's right. I agree completely. But read my words again. I made the point that as things currently stand Israeli security is better served by having a military presence in the West Bank. If you removed the IDF from the West Bank tomorrow (without first securing a guarantee of security from radical groups) you'd see far more attacks on Israel. If you disarm those groups first then you can talk about withdrawal and long term peace and security.

We should have known that Danielle lacked the moral fibre to keep her word ("I am not returning to this discussion.", Feb 13, cf., Nov 14).

How remarkable it is that one lacks the basic cognitive and moral ability to admit even the most simple of mistakes; after four months of claiming that Israel ranks #1 in the world for freedom of the press (having been shown as a matter of fact it is ranked #59) to respond showing that it is ranked in the first general category for political rights and the second general category for civil liberties. Such a pathetic attempt at deception is not fooling anyone.

As further problem is the inability to differentiate between civil rights and cultural promotions. Thus Danielle continues to lie about the politics of Uzzi Ornan, claiming this leader of democratic secularism wishes to wants to expunge everything Jewish and Muslim. In fact Uzzi Ornan wants a secular and modern civil state and wishes to promote Hebrew as the primary identity in a model - as Danielle's reference states - away from the medieval thinking of Judiasm and Islam and towards "secular enlightened modernity." Most people do have the brain to work out that a secular enlightened and modern state does not "expunge" everything Jewish or Muslim in a sense of civil law.

(Although I still find it odd that she continues to provide references to material which contradict her point of view.. )

PS: Jews aren't banned from living in Egypt or Jordan. The Sha'ar Hashamayim synagogue in Cairo 100 year anniversary occurred on October 30 last year with renovations partially funded from the Egyptian government. There are actually thousands of Jews in Jordan, and the US Govt International Religious Freedom Report (2006) states, "The Government does not impose restrictions on Jews, and they are permitted to own property and conduct business in the country".

I don't expect Danielle to acknowledge these facts as they run contrary to her anti-semitic prejudices.

I apologise Lev, Things move so quickly, don't they ... (or) ...

Jordan has a law explicitly prohibiting any Jew from becoming a citizen and that "In Jordan, no Jew can be a citizen or own land."
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1003/dershowitz_2003_10_15.php3

US Department of State International Religious Freedom Report 2006 on Jordan: "The Government recognizes Judaism as a religion; however there are reportedly no Jordanian citizens who are Jewish. The Government does not impose restrictions on Jews, and they are permitted to own property and conduct business in the country." .

1948: Jewish population: 75,000
2004: Jewish population: Less than 100
Anti-Semitism is rampant in the government-controlled press, and increased in late 2000 and 2001 following the outbreak of violence in Israel and the territories. In April 2001, columnist Ahmed Ragheb lamented Hitler’s failure to finish the job of annihilating the Jews. In May 2001, an article in Al-Akhbar attacked Europeans and Americans for believing in the false Holocaust.6 On March 18, 2004, ’Bad al-Ahab ’Adams, deputy director of Al Jumhuriya, accused the Jews of the terrorist attack in Madrid on March 11 as well as of the September 11, 2001 attacks.

A positive development was the announcement that a Cairo synagogue built in 1934, which had been closed because so few Jews remain in Egypt, would be reopened in July 2005. The head of Cairo’s Jewish community, Carmen Weinstein, and Israel’s ambassador to Egypt, Shalom Cohen, arranged to reopen the synagogue, which the Israeli Embassy will help to maintain. On October 30, 2007, the Sha'ar Hashamayim synagogue in Cairo was rededicated by the city's small Jewish community. Many guests from Egypt and around the world attended the event which celebrated the synagogue's 100-year anniversary and the completion of recent renovations that occurred with assistance from the Egyptian government.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/egjews.html