Spy

You jump all over the place.

You point to Lebanon but ignore the Egypt and Jordan experience. Hezoballah is made up of Palestinian refugees from the camps of southern Lebanon and was formed to also drive Jews out of Palestine. The refugees would go home to Palestine if they were allowed by the Israeli's and Hezbollah's support would wane throughout the region. Hezbollah is actng against the occupation and had to defend Lebanon from Israeli aggression recently. Quite different to Egypt and Jordan.

Not a valid comparison... in fact it borders on dishonest.

'The fact is that Israel is surrounded by Arab states which have a historical animosity towards it. Iran in particular wants Israel to be wiped off the map.'

Let's see Israels neighbours are Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and the Palestinian occupied territory. Iran is away past Syria and Iraq and hasn't the technology to attack Israel effectively. Syria has territory occupied by Israel and illegal settlements but couldn't be classed as at threat. Lebanon? You've got to be joking. Egypt and Jordan have a lasting peace with Israel or are they only pretending? Israel has locked down Gaza and exerts an illegal occupation and suppression of Palestine. So while these countries have a justifiable historical anomisity towards aggressive an Israel I might ask where is the threat of invasion?

Isreal has nuclear weapons and the support of the largest military power the world has ever seen.

Arrayed against this is a few terrorist organisations who employ a few home made rockets and suicide bombers. So I might ask how is Israel going to be destroyed?

The rest of the world sufferts threats and and suffered greater actions from terrorists than those facing and experienced by Isreal. Iran has also called for the elimination of the 'Great Satan' ... the USA... the US basically laughs at that threat... but not at the threats of terrorists

Yes withdrawal has to come in response to a guarantee of security. Why ever would you imagine resistance would cease while an occupation continues? Of course Israel has the right to demand guarantees in return for land. Isn't that what has been proposed but Israel refuses to hand back the land and while peace negotiations are underway even increases the illegal settlements. How would you react if missile and suicide bomber attacks increased while peace negotiations were taking place. You'd be livid and epileptic with rage and pointing to insincerity.

While Gaza isn't 'occupied' it isn't able to determine it's own affairs without Israeli interference or outlawed attacks on it's leadership and Palestinian inhabitants. When Israel handed back Gaza there followed free elections. The results Israel objected to. There followed invasions, assisinations and arrests and detention (Ongoing)of the elected representatives of the Palestinians. Is that 'a sign of genuinely seeking peace' by Israel?

No Spy your arguments are getting weaker and you keep falling back to that silly position of a general threat to Israels destruction.

"Contrary to these claims history does tell us that Jews and Muslims are quite capable of living in the same region; especially in secular democratic states."

Has this ever happened in an Islamic state? I would like to believe that it has.

Bernie Masters

Antisemitism is confined to Christian and Islamic nations. It just does not exist in any form in Hindu Buddhist or Confucian societies, and Jews have lived happily such places.

Why? It may be something to do with those two religions which believe that divine benefits are confined to their own supporters. The Asian religions, like Judaism allow for any good person to receive equal divine favours.

Keith asks

“Can you please explain why an unoccupied free Palestinian state wouldn't behave exactly as the free unoccupied Egyptians or Jordanians.”

Jews are barred from living in Egypt and Jordan. Palestinians are also barred from living in Egypt and Jordan (except those already in Egypt caged in camps)

Lev states

“Pappé can read Arabic and also used Arabic sources”

Indeed, he can. He used only Arabic sources for his version of “history”. He didn’t use any Israeli material, nor records from Israel.

Lev asks

“ What are there statements of falsehood in Dr. Finklestein's book? Is it true that his parents were both holocaust survivors?”

Finkelstein’s parents were both holocaust survivors. Enormous research is being undertaken on the effects of the Holocaust, not only on its survivors, but also the childen and grandchildren of survivors.

CAMERA: Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting

Norman Finkelstein’s Fraudulent Scholarship
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnews=169&x_article=985

Norman Finkelstein, Benny Morris and Peace not Apartheid
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1280

“Is it true that the explosive tonnage and damage fired from Israel into Gaza far exceeds those fired in the other direction? “

I will let others more knowledgable about ordnance answer this question. However, Israel, unlike terrorists from Gaza, never deliberately target civilians, especially hospitals and schools; then there are the suicide bombers. Terrorists target Israelis indiscriminately whether they be Jews, Arab Muslims, or any other groups.

Lev,

You have studiously avoided the increasingly dire, current situation of Palestinians killing other Palestinians

Apply your social theory to Iraq ... after all ... this is now the ideal and ready place to employ your experiment of social engineering. Is it not?

Danielle,

I have read the links you provided. I do not think the CAMERA article has shown specific errors and indeed are quite deceptive from the outset.

They claim that "In fact, many Jewish intellectuals supported the Jewish state before 1967" which contrasts to Finklestein's actual quote (i.e., they're actually trying to change the proposition) and provide a quote from Albert Einstein as an example.

Not only is it questionable whether Albert Einstein was an intellectual (usually reserved for those in the field of social inquiry), in the quotation from the Princeton Herald 1944 he does not support Israel. Further, Einstein was well and truly dead (1955) by 1967 (the Finklestein quote says "all the Jewish intellectuals who are now fanatical stalwarts of the State of Israel, until 1967 there were only two public Jewish intellectuals who are publicly identified as supporting Israel") and finally, despite CAMERA's rather wicked misuse of Finklestein's orginal assesment, it is also clear from the quote that Einstein is not supporting an Jewish state as they would want it.

Please try to read the quote carefully; and watch how CAMERA changes the words and meaning of what Finklestein and Einstein wrote.

Likewise it is false when you claim that Pappé used only Arabic sources and no Israeli sources in his book, 'A History of Modern Palestine'. This comment amazes me. It clearly indicates that you haven't actually read the book.

I have actually read it. Contrary to your lie, it is heavily referenced with original source material in Arabic, Hebrew and several European languages. It uses material from a variety of State (including Israel) and non-state sources.

I understand Danielle that you, your mother and your father were victims of the desire for an ethnically and religous pure state, of discrimatory laws against the same and of the application of collective punishment.

It is tragic that you cannot transcend your particular experience into a general one and realise that sometimes the victims also end up engaging in the very crimes committed against them. In all kindness, I think you need a therapist.

Lev

Why should someone who disagrees with you need a therapist? That statement was not worthy of you.

In my case my family were not victims of the desire for an ethnically and religiously pure state, I am the fourth generation to have lived in Australia and have never personally experienced antisemitism, but I agree with much of what Danielle is saying. The one sided treatment of Israel in the press and media is to me an alarming and new thing for Australia. For fair reporting on Israel I find it necessary to use an Asian newspaper. What is happening now with the Australian news media alarms me.

I don't mind fair criticism of Israel but there is a lot to criticise in the behaviour of Arab countries and in the attitude of the Palestinians.