Fellow_Human you seem to want respect for yourself as a Muslim and for Islam in general on the basis that the Quran is the word of God. I'm sorry but what about us non-believers? There is no more evidence that the Quran is the word of God, than there is for oil-bearing pixies in my front garden. Or that the teapot on my stove is an oracle for domestic house spirits.

Why on Earth should we show your religion respect? As far as I am concerned both you and Boaz need locking up in a psychiatric institution. Permanently probably.

George,

"The imagination and the spitital strength of Shakespeare's evildoers [in Macbeth]stopped short at a dozen corpses. Because they had no ideology." - Alexander Solzhenitsyn.

In Moscow in December 1931 one very direct Lady Astor asked Stalin, "when will you stop killing people?". The interpret froze. Accordind to Anton Antonov-Oseyenko, Stalin replied, "the process will continue as long as necessary" [to establish communist society].

Mr. Pell has a right to express his views. Cardinal Pell should not leverage religious ideology against Iemma personally. Solzhenitsyn said, it is ideology which suspended the moral restraints which held back even Macbeth and Iago. Pell, breaching the separation of Chruch and State, is not offering his conviction, but leveraging Catholic ideology against the Australian political process.

Moreover, even to an antheist, the Eucharist is about "remembering the Life of Jesus", and, it is presumptous and arrogant of a man to mispresent what was in all likelihood meant to be a Jewish house rite celebrating Jesus, as a stick to enforce the doctrines of a Church formed centuries after Jesus had died.

Pell is saying, in effect, you risk the opportunity to celebrate the memory of Jesus, in my Church, if you oppose my ideology, and, as Stalin might add, "the process will continue as long as necessary".

Cheers,

O.

Snappy Tom,

You quote:
“Fellow_Human you seem to want respect for yourself as a Muslim and for Islam in general on the basis that the Quran is the word of God”

That s incorrect, all I expect is from the nutbags who are inciting fear and hatred on this forum to stop promoting disharmony and malicious interpretation of Islam. When did I ever force religious views on anyone on theses forums? I am merely responding to hateful comments by the same lunatics.
Did you see any muslim on OLO jumping on other’s faith like Boaz and his mob does?
Your criticism should be directed to the right people.

“what about us non-believers?”

What does that mean? We are all supposed to respect the law and the common values in the country we live in. We are not supposed to worry about who believes in what and who is a non-believer in what.

“Why on Earth should we show your religion respect?”
Interesting question, if you are not respectable of others, why demand respect from others? Aren’t you just another Boaz?

A poster said,'Muslims were rare in this country until recent years' and that was when our lives were more peaceful than they are now.
Muslims have not benefitted Australia,where ever Muslims go they stir up argument,trouble and even fear.
The new Mufti has all his sympathies with his silly predecessor so there will be little improvement in matters there.
At least in western countries, when a church man upsets the community, the community has no hesitation in telling him so.That is the way we like it.

Oliver,
you obviously never lived under a Stalinist dictatorship, and you probably understand very little about an educated Catholic’s informed (by rules of politics, electorate, scientific facts, faith, etc. in case of an MP) conscience. Also, the Catholic Church has the right to have its own interpretation of the Eucharist, irrespective of whether it agrees with yours (which I did not understand). So neither can you understand the reasons Pell referred to it in order to remind MP-s that they were about to make decisions on matters of unforeseeable, potentially dire, consequences.

In the US there were public voices by pastors of all sorts of denominations, supporting or condemning the invasion of Iraq, but as far as I know nobody suggested to silence them because they “breached the separation of Church and State”. As I know the Australian scene, which I still try to follow, the bone of contention for many militant secularists (unfortunately also for some Muslims of the Irfan ilk) in Australia is not separation of Church and State but the person of Cardinal Pell.

Let me repeat: EITHER freedom of speech applies to everybody - including Church dignitaries who do not toe the secularist line - OR there is no freedom of speech.

George,

Thank you for your reply. Put simply, I distinguish between Citizen Pell and Cardinal Pell. I have no personal feelings towards him and don't know him [I have met Cardinal Clancy.]. I do support free of speech. Historically, Christians have not. I was just reading about some Italian scientists (1690), who faced the Inquisition for saying the Adam was composed of atoms [preseumably the Greek concept of fundamental particles] that existed before Adam. Maybe, even very recently, JPII stacked the College of Cardinals.

As for the Catholic Church's interpretation of the Eucharist, one would need to check-up source documents. The purpose of Eucharist as a rite of rememberance would not be the same as the debate on the substance of the bread and wine. I thought Jesus said words to the effect of, "do this in rememberance of me". That is a rite, but not creed. If Jesus said this, a Church doesnot have the right to change the meaning like a barnyard wall in "1984". Jesus said what Jesus said.

My point with Stalin, perhaps poorly stated is, ideology can be very dangerous and its disciples can be persistent. If the Communists or a church-based ideology can see a crack, either party would be happy to force a wedge.

If we were talking of the US, I would say the same about the Late Billy Graham. With these US millionnaire evangelists, it is so common for the leadership become dynastic.

Also, as I send above, the State has now business telling the priest how times he should ring his bell.

KR,

O.