Coach, you may speak for the likes of Benjamin but your claim to 'speak for most intelligent Australians' is breathtaking arrogance.

Irfan Yusuf makes good sense to me. The separation of church and state is crucial for the health of a democracy - and that separation must apply equally to all religions.

Irfan rightly pointed out that Sheik Hilali has been condemned by Muslims across the ethnic, social and political spectrum of Australian Islam (and the Australian National Board of Imams has abolished his position).

Irfan hardly needed to mention that the Sheik was also roundly condemned by non-Muslims throughout the land, including John Howard, Peter Costello and Kevin Rudd. And rightly so, not because he was a Muslim cleric, but because what he said was outrageous and offensive.

Irfan Yusuf demonstrates the double standard of many of our national leaders, most of whom are now mute in the face of the Catholic Cardinal's blatant interference in political life. The Australian's editorial is more hypocritical - it suddenly finds that in “mixing affairs of church and state”, Pell was “only doing his job”. On that basis it must be OK for a Muslim cleric to do the same.

But it isn't OK. Both Cardinal Pell and Sheik Hilali have overstepped the mark - as does any religious leader who tries to dictate to the community at large, or, for that matter, any political leader who uses religion for their own political purposes.

Some people ask me why I did not condemn Hilaly. The answer to that is simply this: You don'y know what you're talking about.

I have condemned and criticised Hilaly's words and actions on numerous occasions and in the following outlets ...

a. Here on this site
b. Twice in Sydney's Daily Telegraph (one occasion, I was quoted on the BBC website)
c. Once in Sydney Morning Herald
d. Three times in Canberra Times
e. Once in the Melbourne Age
f. three times in Crikey.com.au
g. twice on NewMatilda.com
h. Once in the New Zealand Herald
i. Once in the Wellington Dominion Post
j. Twice in the Christchurch Press
j. Once on NineMSN.com.au
k. Four times in AltMuslim.com
l. Once on Malaysiakini.com

I'm not sure what the combined audience involved here is. Can someone calculate it for me? Perhaps 2-3 million in Australia, maybe 1 million in New Zealand and the rest in Malaysia, the US, UK and online.

Now, over to the person who asked why I didn't criticise Hilaly ...

the Australian editorial was interesting, one wonders what their comment would have been if Pell had said something simillar about work choices...

what religious authoritarianism (as opposed to religious individuals) often fails to comprehend is that the protection afforded by the separation of church and state runs both ways. it serves no religion to be drawn into a situation where principal is a matter of political expediency

Well said Irfan. I'm in full agreement.

However I'd make one small point. I like many of my generation and my parents generation of Catholics gave up listening to the Church's anonited representatives years ago.

The issue. Contraception. Many now lapsed Catholics rejected the idea a bunch of celibate men had any right to advise people on what they should do in their bedrooms. The argument boiled down to an intrepretation of Christ's message. Since Christ never directly addressed the issue the intrepretation was left to his current representatives. Todays issue is similar and will probably lead to a falling off in the numbers of adherents who place any great store in the infability of the Pope and the pronouncements of the princes of the Catholic Church, the Cardinals and Bishops.

The only possible difference I see in parallels between the Catholic and Islamic cases is that I am not sure the same questioning or rejection of intrepretation of the Koran's teaching would ensue in Islam. Sure the positions of the Clergy in both cases has been undermined but in the case of Islam I doubt the same exodus away from basic traditions inherent in the Koran is likely to follow...as occurred in Catholicism.

BOAZ-David,

What have you been drinking/smoking etc? Your comment re the "sacrement (sic) of indulgence" nearly had me in fits of laughter. "Indulgence" is NOT a sacrament of the Church.

Re the anti-Semitic Luther....Have you read "On the Jews and their lies" published by Mr Luther? And he didn't like peasants either!

I'd rather have "organized religion" than disorganized religion! So would Jesus!

I don’t expect any stem cell breakthroughs from the Islamic world or scientific discoveries of any kind. They are so mired in their straitjacket of religious beliefs that they can do little else than protest about paying for medical and other technology discovered in the decadent west. Maybe Mr. Pell shares some belief with the Muslim brothers after all.