Danielle

Just a couple of points.

You rightly claim 'Israel grants citizenship to Jews, whatever race or nationality, including dark-skinned Ethiopians, Yeminis, and Indians; and whether secular, atheists, or religious;'

But what you overlook is it won't grant citizenship to Palestinian refugees who want to return to their former homes. Of course it's done for security reasons but that doesn't change the fact it is a discriminatory practice. That undermines any claim Israel is non-discrininatory.

And just three small questions.
Does Israel allow immigration of Muslim Arabs from Yemman, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran or Iraq.
Does it grant them citizenship?
Does it use the same methodology to assess and grant them citizenship as they would Jews from those states?

In one way you quite rightly point out 'History has repeatedly demonstrated the Jews need security ...'
but what you miss is that the militarist, isolationist, occupationist and oppressive solutions offered in the past simply haven't worked and in fact now work to Israels detriment.

Doesn't logic dictate it is time to reassess whether Israel really is benefitting from occupying and creating illegal settlements on Palestinian land? Don't you think if Israel really wants security and peace it is best to accommodate the aspirations of it's neighbouring people. Isn't it time to forget the rantings of the radicals and address in a forthright manner the actual desires of the Palestinians and Israel's other neighbours...as was successfully done with both Jordan and Egypt?

Howeverou your claim 'History has repeatedly demonstrated the Jews need security - a Jewish homeland.' is baseless.

History actually shows Jewish people have greater security in the worlds great Liberal Democracies. You know countries like the US Great Britian, Australia, Canada and New Zealand. I'd feel slighted if you'd in anyway suggest Australia doesn't provide security or a fair go for Jewish people living here. Sure there are anti-semities among us but our laws and our decency won't ever allow such ugliness to become the vogue and any discrimination or violence is dealt with in our courts. And no-one here fears suicide bombers or occupations.

By the way... as much as you like to believe the opposite, I'm not anti-semitic. I believe Israel is entitled to security. I simply believe Israel is blindly applying yesterdays solutions to todays problems. As evidence you only have to look at the Israelis recent attack on Lebanon. The Israeli military applied it's traditional methods of attack, occupy and oppress. The Israeli military failed to any attain any of its goals and world opinion not only turned against Israeli aggression for the first time I can ever recall but it also forced a grudging withdrawal.

Haven't you noticed how the world has changed in the last 60 years?

Peace? Yeah sure but a just peace and that wion't occur while the West Bank is occupied and illegal settlements remain.

Oh and Arafat was always a gangster first and second and third ... but he did have the decency to reject that unreasonable Barak proposal that would have ensured the fragmentation of Palestine.

Israel does permit citizenship of Muslims from elswehere -Arab and Iranian Druze have their HQ in Israel; making a large part on the border police.

After the establishment of Israel, a number of Arab States not only expelled 800,000 Jews - but also appropriated their businesses, schools, synagogues and hospitals.

After the 1948 war, Egypt controlled the Gaza strip with its 200,000 inhabitants, but refused them entry into Egypt or let them move elsewhere. Saudi Arabian radio compared Nasser’s regime in Gaza to Hitler’s rule in occupied Europe.

Currently it is virtually impossible to become a naturalised citizen in most Arab states - especially in Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Many Arab states, define citizenship by native parentage;

A number of Arab nations have laws which facilitate the naturalization of foreign Arabs - with the specific exception of Palestinians. Syria, Iraq and Libya refused to admit Palestinians even when offered international funds to do so.

Arab countries offerring jobs, housing, land and benefits to Arabs and non-Arabs, -excludePalestinians. In 1970’s and 1980’s, Saudi Arabia refused unemployed to Palestinian refugees to alleviate labour shortage - instead recruited thousands of South Koreans and other Asians for these jobs.

In Syria and Lebanon, Palestinian refugees have no social or civil rights, and limited access to public health and education. They are prohibited by law from working in many trades or professions. The UNRWA provide for their social needs.

To this day, Jordan has been the only Arab country willing to grant Palestinians citizenship and health care.

After the Gulf War in 1991, Kuwait who employed large numbers of Palestinians - albeit denied citizenship, then expelled more than 300,000 being possibe “security risks”.

The Palestinian nationalist leader Musa Alami stated: “It is shameful that the Arab governments should prevent the Arab refugees from working in their countries and shut the door in their faces and imprison them in camps.” (Musa Alami, “The Lesson of Palestine,” Middle East Journal (October 1949), p.386.)

In Arab countries, Jews are refused citizenship, this includes Jordan with whom they have a peace treaty. This is Jordan’s perogative.

As for world opinion ...!!

Lebanese journalist Joseph Farah wrote on August 1, 2006.

“You know , it’s funny. For years I’ve been trying to get people to pay attention to the deaths and destruction and injustices being perpetuated on my beloved Lebanon.
And nobody cared.

When Yasser Arafat’s Palestinian Liberation Organization tried to take over the country and make it his terrorist playground, nobody cared.

When people were dying in the thousands in the civil war, nobody cared.

When Syria had its boot on the neck of its tiny neighbour for 25 years, nobody cared.

When Iran dispatched Hezbollah terrorists into the country to undermine home rule by the Lebanese, nobody cared.

When Muslims chased millions of Christians from the country, tipping the balance of power, nobody cared.

But now, all eyes are on Lebanon,
Do you know why?

Because Israel has tried to clean up the hornets nest. Yet , all we hear about is how many Lebanese are dying.

Guess what the total death toll is among Lebanese... including Hezbollah terrorists, many ... not Lebanese? ...

... just over 500.

... Even one innocent death is a tragedy. But this is the total - all terrorists, civilians, Lebanese army, everthing ...

.... 1,700 Afghanis have been killed since the start of the year ...

Instead everyone is going ape over Lebanon ...

Do you think those screaming about the bloodshed in Lebanon really give a hoot about Lebanon? If so, where have they been for the last 30 years? ...

... the only difference is who’s doing the butt kicking in Lebanon.

As for me ... I don’t want to see a “cease-fire.” I want to see Lebanon freed of the terrorist blight ... freed from domination by Iran and Syria. I want to see Lebanon be Lebanon ... (not) ... suffer for another 30 years. It’s time to clean up the mess ...

And that means getting rid of the disease of Hezbollah - now.”

Danielle

You originally put forward the idea that Israel in some way doesn't discriminate against people in it's immigration policies.

That's my honest assessment and trust a correct assessment of your position. I don't think I've misrepresented that?

If that's true then I fail to see the relevance of the policies of Israels neighbour in defending your proposition.
I commented and remarked only on actions of the Israeli government that undermined your position. While I abhor the actions nobody claims the Arab states attempt to be similar to Liberal Democracies or claim to have similar immigration policies nor do they deny or hide their discriminatory and unjust actions.

As for Lebanon. I agree we've ignored the plight of the Lebanese for years, just as we have ignored the plight of the occupied Palestinian my point was the world has changed.
I don't know why, but now the world just seems to be more aware and aborrent of violence than previously. To me it seems the Israelis because they applied their tried and proven methods of attack, occupy and suppress, simply haven't recognised the shift in world opinion.

All the conditions that applied in Lebanon before the invasion still exist today. As you point out so graphically Hezbollah is still a threat to Israel and in all likelihood is still supported and re-supplied by Syria and Iran. Political instability is still the case Peacekeepers still patrol the border, the Shaba Farms still cause friction, and that Israeli solder is still a prisoner of war.

Israel did manage to destroy much of Lebanon's infrustructure.

World opinion thought that wanton and pointless. Israel because it thinks those results is ' kicking butt' shows is still out of step with the world view.

Just to correct a little historical oversight the US once became involved in Lebanon and Israel once before occupied part of Lebanon and both left. Both added to the mess.

Israel learned nothing.

regards

ps Israel has made one very significant change. It is negotiating to secure that soldier's release...something the world thought it should have done in the first place.

A Lebanese, not Israeli, journalist wrote the article above.

You seem somewhat confused ...

The AIDRG record that 105,000 Muslim Arabs have migrated into Israel; an Israeli policy to re-unite families. Incidentally, apart from the Bosnian Muslims, Israel also took in Vietnamese boat-people when every other country refused them.

Do you not wish to see Palestinians with a modern, secular democratic state of their own rather than packed into Israel - a minute country?

Re: the Saudi-Arabian fence. It has enraged Yemenis as it includes a 20 km-wide neutral strip of grazing land; and apparently more ...

"A prominent sheik of the Wayilah tribe … told Yemen Times that up to 3,000 tribesmen are preparing to fight Saudi forces unless Saudi Arabia pulls out of Yemen. The sheik claims that Saudi Arabia has already built a security fence 4 to 7 km beyond the neutral zone inside Yemen, stretching from Jabal Hobash to Jabal Al Fara.”

Israel’s security fence goes along the Green Line - the 1949 armistice line. Both Arab and Jew welcome this prevention against suicide bombers and terrorists. A similar fence separates Gaza from Israel. Neither are impregnable. In a 34 month period, 73 attacks killed 293 Israelis (including Arabs and other groups) with 1,950 wounded. Since the fence, terrorist attacks have declined 90%. The fence has improved the life of many Israeli Arab towns, with a significant upsurge in economy.

What specific infrastructures in Lebanon do you refer? Are you referring to Hezbollah actions in using citizens and their residences as shields (a war crime), and UN observer posts; also moving weapons around disguised as red cross vehicles ... all well documented. Or are you referring to the plethora of photographs which when published, Reuters went into spasms either recalling, or retracting them as having been doctored.

The UN confirmed that Israel had completed withdrawl for southern Lebanon (Security Council endorces Secretary General’s conclusion on Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon as of the 16th June) (UN Press Release, June 18, 2000)

Shebaa Farms is a 100-square mile, largely uninhabited patch in eastern Mount Dov.

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