to FLUFF and DANIELLE...

a couple of points.

Danielle first.
Romans 11:11-12

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

(note, 'riches' in the spiritual sense, not economic)

Danielle..I don't see any 'conditional' aspect to this. Its more a statement the God in His sovereignty will include the faithful Jews. But his coming/return is not conditional upon anything 'they' do.

Paul is underlining the fact that the Jews rejection of the Messiah, has in fact brought salvation to the world. but that Salvation, is from God, by sovereign will, not 'because' of the Jewish rejection.

FLUFF. the Jews are only 'special' in terms of them being chosen by God as the vehicle through whom good news of Salvation and restoration of mans relationship with God came. Deuteronomy spefically states "It was NOT because of anything good in you that God chose you"... So, their specialness is based on God, not on them.

It's easy to see how this can be turned around, and twisted to mean 'They' are special in and of themselves because of their race or culture or whatever.. this was not the reason God used them.

I hope this point is taken in, because it is critically important.

Danielle...quoted:

I did not like these BCO's - they were duplicitous, albeit for 'king and country'. Whilst importing Arab labour from other parts of the Middle East (the question begs 'why?' when they had local labour), they prevented those arriving in ships - survivors of nazi death camps - from berthing by shooting across their bows; also holding those they permitted to berth, in camps surrounded by barbed wire. What were they expecting these poor unfortunates to do? One of these men admitted to looking the other way when a group of Arabs tore a Jewish youth_to_pieces.

COMMENT. "All have sinned, and fall short of the Glory of God" and that includes the British.

The word 'why' in that part?.. the simple answer is.. that the British crown/government saw such action as ultimately in their financial and security interets, more...than an alternative course of action.

I'll say it again "All" have sinned.

The silly idea that sin is not equally distributed among mankind is simply denial of reality. (I'm not saying thats ur idea, but there are those who seem to have this view in the forum)

Sin is the problem.
Christ is the solution.

As Peter said to the Jews on the day of Pentecost.. not a hint of timidity.

14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you;

22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead.

Peter didn't mince words. Later he says about Christ "Whom YOU (the Jews) crucified".

Christ unites, and overcomes ethnicity, culture, and race. Humble acceptance of His Lordship over our lives, will transform our land.
But..He forces no one.

Another article that attempts to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. I don't have anything against Jews per se, nor do I think their religion is any better or worse than others, but I reject any notion that Israel has any more 'right to exist' than any other nation-state, or that Jews are in any way 'special' or 'chosen by God'. Does that make me anti-Semitic?

Appealing to stories derived from books of myths - no matter how sacred or venerable they are to those who believe in them - in no way increases the 'right' of Israel to exist, nor makes Jews any more 'special' than anyone else. Except of course to Zionists and and their Christian supporters, and that in my opinion is the real source of conflict in Palestine.

Danielle points out the relatively newness of Palestinian nationalism. This may be true but in historical terms so is Zionism. Prior to the late 19th Century, when anti-semitism became resurgent in France, Russia and elsewhere, Zionism was not on the political radar. Indeed, many Jewish people preferred to emigrate to the US and Britain from Eastern Europe rather than form a separate entity in the Middle-East (although some of their co-religionists did live there with Muslim Arabs and a few Christians).

Today we see new states in Europe such as Slovakia, Belarus and Moldova. Is Slovakian nationalism illegitimate simply because it is such a recent phenomenon?

The fundamental problem comes back to the idea of a Jewish state. The outcomes are obvious: non-Jews will never be fully accepted and never allowed a right of return the way Jews are. Imagine if Australia capped the number of Jews coming in because it would "threaten the Australian nature of our country"? You get the idea.

Btw I am also opposed to Islamic states for similar reasons.

Danielle,

I follow your comments with interest sounds you have a good grip and passion for your country. Before I ask my question, my contextual contextual understanding of your country is this:

- The Jewish population in Palestine combined with influx of European jews and escaping persecution wanted to have a independent land where they can feel safe and secure with their own kind. So till now its sounds like a separatist movement given the threats and moods of the time (more or less like srilanka and paksitan to India).
- The original vision (Theodore hertzel) was a secular national jewish home. Not religious (the original plans had other land alternatives to Palestine).

Please feel free to correct any of the above.
As an outsider following the headlines, sometimes it looks like a secular state, Jews only or mainly state, right wing and “God’s plan” (like Boazy wants all Jews there to speed up Armageddon, jews blood, second coming, etc..)

I am assuming you are an average rational Israeli and/ or Jewish person. In your view, what is the purpose, vision and identity of Israel today and who is steering? It seems sometimes your own borders are driven by day to day necessity rather to an agreed vision.

Keith,

The British Colonial Officers had saying: “all wogs east of Callais” ...

Unlike suicide bombers, the British HQ had two warnings beforehand. The arrogance of the Brits lay in their belief that no-one would dare attack them, thus took no evasive action. With all their gingoism, their rank demanded that they had obligations and responsibility to others; they did not fulfill this. The surviving Brits responsible should have been hung out to dry, and many other Brits of high rank expressed this same opinion. Incidentally one known officer excused himself from HQ at the specified time..

As for the bombing itself, the Jewish National Council denounced it.

Unlike this bombing, suicide bombers neither warn nor discriminate.

Like Israel has been forced to do, Saudi Arabia is building a 900 km, high-tech fence along its border with Iraq to improve its security against terrorism and weapons-dealers; also drug-dealers and illegal immigrants. This fence is indeed very high-tech - equipped with command posts, some 15-20 ft high double fences 100 yards apart, ultraviolet night-vision cameras, buried sensor cables and thousands of miles of barbed wire. Certain aspects are top secret with speculation that an automated weapons systems attached to the fence could fire on suspected intruders.

Keith,

I am ignoring your abuse and catcalls from the sidelines, and will not respond. You do not supply specifics, nor are even competently informed about the Palestinians and their situation. You have nothing with which to debate - you are all bluster and prejudice. I am familiar with your writings on the subject; have stated my views of you, which are concretely confirmed. Your issue is more about “Keith and his opinions” than actual concern for Palestinians.

CJ Morgan,

BOAZ_David, has answered your question about Jews being considered anyway “special” or “chosen by God”; and he has referred to Deuteronomy. I think that would satisfy any Christian, Moslem or Jew on this thread.