Ro,

Not sure how much you know about Muslim brotherhood. It started in the 1920’s in Egypt initially as a resitance movement to British colonialism. It was actually Kotb in 1966 who re-invented militant Islamism and changed their path & ambitions into anti-government, anti-systematic movement. Kotb was Egyptian by the way and not a Saudi. Also, he was not a salafi, wahhabis are.

Coach,

“most Muslims don't study their own books”
Urban myth, majority of muslims read and study our HolyBook (not books by the way). There is no middle men in Islamic faith and its every individual’s responsibility to find the truth and save his own soul. I teach that to my children and so does every Muslim.

“they prefer to rely on imams for explanations”
There is no clergy in Islam, any imam’s opinion is just another opinion including fatwas: there are thousands of fatwas for non-smoking and 3 out of 5 muslims smoke (including myself occasionaley).
Imams can clarify certain matters but they don’t decide what the faith or tenants is, its already been set. We don't kiss their hands or ask them for blessings ;)

“amuse yourself by reading their books”Starting of course with the word the Qur'an (using a reliable translation)”

Thank you for the invite I encourage people to learn and study spirituality and Islam. Oxford and Pickthall are reliable translations.
There is also a couple of good sites:
Spirituality: www.readingislam.com
Social/secular: www.affinity.org.au

Thanks again for the invitation, its most sensible and responsible suggestion.

Peace,

Brushy.. well noted :) (re F.H.)

Now.. 2 points need to be addressed here.

1/ Biblical position on slavery.
2/ Temporary marraige in Islam (which F.H. avoids by quoting the next verse..25 instead of 24)

1/ BIBLICAL SLAVERY (Old Testament)

Certainly an ugly aspect to life in those days. There were many aspects to it. It could arise as a result of:
a) Prisoners of War
b) Debt.

On the prisoners of war, (women and children not killed in a war) the children would be joined to an Israelite family as slaves. The women also, but there was the possibility of marraige to the master.
If the marriage did not work out, she was FREE.
Second. An Israelite master could NOT have sexual relations with a slave girl, UNlike the Muslim situation.

b) Debt.. just like me.. a slave to the CBA for a few more years. self explanitory.

What FH did not do, (and in so 'not' doing is guilty of distorting things) is mention how Quran 4:24 is used to justify temporary marriage (another word for prositution) in Islamic law.

TEMPORARY MARRAIGE in ISLAM.
Now.. don't take MY word for it.. take the word of Muslims.
here is a forum where Muslims are discussing it and scroll down to the person named 'Aliya'
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t29815.html
Here is a Muslim web site DEDICATED to the practice

http://www.mutah.com/

So.. I ask the forum.."Who" is distorting ?

FH. peace :)

Boaz,

Nice spin re slavery …I won’t pursue it further but I will assume you are close to Islam’s position on slavery : - )

Re Temporary Mutah Marriage, its origin and facts:

- The prophet allowed, as a term of necessity for a man when he is away on long travel (+6months) and he fears temptation (adultery), he can marry a woman for companionship.
- The marriage must fulfil the 2 corners of Islamic marriage (intent to live together and declaration/ announcement of the marriage)
- After the prophet died caliph Omar found few muslims abusing it so he banned it.
- Sunni Muslims (90% of muslims don’t practice it).
- A percentage of shiaa muslims practice it still there is no exact data but from my Shiaa friend I was told its 5-10% at best and declining.
- Shiaa Muslims being 8% of total muslims. So 10% of an 8% makes a total of below 1% of Muslims practising it.
- Since you are into comparisons, please compare to women position in the same period according to your faith.
- Its not my problem if there is a site promoting it, there are mormon sites promoting polygamy according to the bible. There are 50,000 polygamy cases (some men with 12 wives) in the US today in a single state (South Dakota).

What was that question again? Oh yes “who is distorting”?
You became addicted to falling on your own sword :-)

Peace,

Falling_on_my_sword ? not_at_all_FH.

Let me re-iterate.

1/ BIBLICAL POSITION on Slavery.
I don't find slavery 'advocated', I see it tolerated. I find it was recognized by Paul as a social institution, and his approach was rather than form a terrorist gang and take on the Roman Emperor, he took the STING out of Slavery in Galatians 3:26-28
"Neither slave nor free" I assure you, the presense of the Holy Spirit in a life will mean the very idea of slavery is abhorrent, and while it may take some time for people to open the ears of their hearts to the Lords voice, I point out that at the cutting edge of the anti slavery movement were evangelicals.

2/ ISLAMIC POSITION ON SLAVERY. Surah 23:5-6 a man can have sex with his wives AND his slavegirls. I see no mention of 'with their permission' but I DO see many Sharia sites arguing that she had NO choice, because she is a....'possession'.

TEMPORARY MARRIAGE. The point of my post was to elucidate a lecture on 'statistics' from you. It was to demonstrate at the fundamental level, the idea of temporary marriage is an Islamic reality, and the argument that it no longer applies is one which sets the word of Omar ABOVE that of Mohammad/Quran, and this is disputed by Shia, and SHOULD be disputed by you, who are always telling me that the Quran is higher than the hadith. The Hadith is the ONLY source of its being forbidden, (Mohammad at Khaybar and Omar later)

So.. lets call it by its real name "paid one nite stands" or.. if u like, 5 nite stands.(Prostitution)

You also make the point that it was allowed 'of neccessity' REALLY?

Well..the Christian position is "self control" not looking hungrily for the nearest woman who will open her legs for you because ur a horny soldier far from home. Yes.. I'm speaking rather vulgarly there, but if the shoe fits, wear it.

CONCLUSION... it took some work, but you did admit the very thing I suggested you were 'spinning' into a hiding place :) *thanx*

We can call Islam cruel and observe that its teachers lack human compassion. Islam certainly appears to be in crisis from a distance so how can we understand the often silly, sometimes dangerous and ad hoc, illogical "fatwas"?...

"CAIRO, June 11. First came the breast-feeding fatwa. Then came the urine fatwa. It said that drinking the urine of the Prophet Muhammad was deemed a blessing..... “There is chaos now,” Mr. Megawer said. “The problem created is confusion in thought, confusion about what is right and what is wrong, religiously.”

...A couple approached. The man’s clothes were tattered, and his wife looked distressed. Their 9-year-old son’s clothing was clean, his hair gelled, his smile bright. The man explained that they had adopted the child when he was 9 months old, and that they had just heard that under Islam their son had to be put out of the house, because the mother had not given birth to him or breast-fed him. He would reach puberty as an outsider, and could not, technically, be around the woman he knew as his mother. The imam at their local mosque said it was haram — forbidden under Islam — to live with the boy."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/12/world/middleeast/12fatwa.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th

So, "official" Islam today is inconsistent and logically incoherent. Its teachers embody the very opposite of tolerance, love, compassion and mercy. Cruel judgements make cruel people and so from the social confusion of this ad hoc 'intellectual' environment, come bombers, beheaders, ‘honour killers’ and other such stone-throwing 'swords' of islam.

It is no wonder then that Islam seems so strange. Fatwas are untransparent edicts that interfere with democracy, individual rights and social justice. And our values don’t coincide naturally, whether it is simply the pervasive dislike of (guide) dogs, the unnatural desire to separate men and women or simply the characteristic "fear", "humiliation" and overbearing rules hardwired into being one of Allah's "slaves" that represents the opposite of an open, progressive and cheerful Australian. It is clear how Muslims are officially taught to blame others first while we are more realistically educated not to inhabit glasshouses.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/conflicts/middle_east/arab_defeat

Fellow_Human,

Re: Slavery - it is still striving in many parts of Islam land today. Why? Because the prophet allowed it and practice it himself in 7th century Arabia.

Did you know that if a divorced woman that is now single wishes to remarry her husband, she must first sleep at least one night with a stranger before the husband can re-possess her?
What do you call that FH?

“Urban myth, majority of muslims read and study our HolyBook (not books by the way).”
You may recite the verses but you don’t question their meaning. If you did you would not be a Muslim anymore.
The Qur’an does not make sense as a single literary volume – without the many Hadiths to explain it.

“There is no middle men in Islamic faith”
Both true and false. We share a similar position in protestant Christianity. Jesus has opened the direct access to God, he is our only priest. But in Islam everything must be agreed upon by consensus of the sect leaders before it becomes applied by the crowd.

BTW, how come you accept Mohammed’s words as ‘gospel’ – wasn’t he just a middle man?

“and its every individual’s responsibility to find the truth and save his own soul.”
Well good luck with that.

“I teach that to my children and so does every Muslim.”
Child abuse! Call the cops...

” 3 out of 5 muslims smoke (including myself occasionaley).”
If you respected God’s scripture, the Bible, you would agree that man was created in God’s image and that our body is the temple of God (not a building) - you would think twice before lighting up.

About the invite to read the Qur’an and explanatory texts (ahadiths) – you’re welcome. Though I’m still not so sure what this has that to do with ‘spirituality’ but let our volunteers decide.

Do me a favour though – I know you have access to a Bible – what do you make of Acts chapter 2?
Thanks.